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more lure ....

more lure ....

2004-09-18 by darylmey

So, let`s play a game:
You have a 10.000 $ Serge and some other "spare" 10 k .....
Now: supposed you can sell your Serge - what would you do:
Buy that new Push-up-Wonder-B(uchl)ra for 20 k or you keep your old
faith and buy some supplements (kyma, cynthia etc ....)????

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Carbon111

Well, I got pretty drooley about the 200e at first but after looking at
the fine print realized my Serge was just as powerful at about half the
cost - actually much *more* powerful/flexible in some areas. Reading the
200e descriptions reveals that much of the functionality is suprisingly
similar in implementation after you strip away some of the nomenclature.

After living with the Serge for a while I would also find it frustrating
to have to segregate CV and Audio signals again. ^_^

I suppose I'd spend the 10K upgraging my PT TDM system to a PT HTDM
Accel system.

Y'know though...if I had an "extra" $20K "lying around" I could probably
find a corner somewhere for the 200e ;)

Best Regards, James
--
http://www.carbon111.com

Gir: "Why's his head so big?"


darylmey wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> So, let`s play a game:
> You have a 10.000 $ Serge and some other "spare" 10 k .....
> Now: supposed you can sell your Serge - what would you do:
> Buy that new Push-up-Wonder-B(uchl)ra for 20 k or you keep your old
> faith and buy some supplements (kyma, cynthia etc ....)????
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by John P

the Buchla's price carries a high premium for its rarity. The sound
quality is great I'm sure, but a lot of the 200e design is devoted to
patch storage & midi stuff I just don't need or want.

darylmey wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>So, let`s play a game:
>You have a 10.000 $ Serge and some other "spare" 10 k .....
>Now: supposed you can sell your Serge - what would you do:
>Buy that new Push-up-Wonder-B(uchl)ra for 20 k or you keep your old
>faith and buy some supplements (kyma, cynthia etc ....)????
>
>

--
m/n/m/l
surreal electronic music, sound, noise
http://mnml.soulcatcher.net

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Chris Whitten

> The sound
> quality is great I'm sure, but a lot of the 200e design is devoted to
> patch storage & midi stuff I just don't need or want.
I agree with that.
Pricewise, my first reaction was the Buchla was great value, especially when
looked on as single modules. The way STS prices have been going, I would
have thought Buchla was pretty competitive.
Don't discount Buchla (based on descriptions) until you've used it either.
After I bought my mini Buchla system, I ended up selling most of my Serge -
keeping only the panel with FRS, Res EQ and VCM.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by darkstr1746@comcast.net

....?? some other "spare" 10K ??? hahahaha... ok. it's a game right? : ) Now, if i could sell MY Serge, i think i'd buy a couple acres out in the boondocks and plant a double wide on it and give official notice that the rest of the world can kiss my butt. How does that grab ya?? Cynthia modules are cool but thay can't compete with acreage and Kyma is a computer so right off the bat it isn't worth sh**.....

kind regards

john duval <------needing more caffeine


Show quoted textHide quoted text
-------------- Original message --------------
So, let`s play a game:
You have a 10.000 $ Serge and some other "spare" 10 k .....
Now: supposed you can sell your Serge - what would you do:
Buy that new Push-up-Wonder-B(uchl)ra for 20 k or you keep your old
faith and buy some supplements (kyma, cynthia etc ....)????



Keep on Patchin'!



Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Blake Wilson

>....?? some other "spare" 10K ??? hahahaha... ok. it's a game
>right? : ) Now, if i could sell MY Serge, i think i'd buy a
>couple acres out in the boondocks and plant a double wide on it and
>give official notice that the rest of the world can kiss my
>butt. How does that grab ya??

sounds good john!!! i had a just a bit of spare $ recently so i
picked up a bunch of quality cables, rewired the studio, bought the
new alesis micron, and a focusrite twintrak pro pre. my serge isnn't
doing much right now, i'm afraid....

> Cynthia modules are cool but thay can't compete with acreage and
>Kyma is a computer so right off the bat it isn't worth sh**.....
>
>kind regards
>
>john duval <------needing more caffeine

instead of caffeine, i suggest trying the "nitro to go" "legal speed" pills:

http://www.nitro2go.com/hi_energy.html

i tried a couple of these last week ($1 at the friendly neighborhood
liquor store) and the result was the begining of the studio rewiring
mentioned above. i was seriously amped and just had to do
*something*. in the end it was worth the dollar, for sure! and i
could get to sleep that night, and no fear of the black helicopters
comin' down on me!!! ;^)

i think the shit that pumps you up in this stuff is "yohimbe" or
something like that.

b.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Ryan Ryan

why isn't anyone thinking the obvious...
and buy a buchla 200e for 20,000 O_o

Blake Wilson <mbw@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>....?? some other "spare" 10K ??? hahahaha... ok. it's a game
>right? : ) Now, if i could sell MY Serge, i think i'd buy a
>couple acres out in the boondocks and plant a double wide on it and
>give official notice that the rest of the world can kiss my
>butt. How does that grab ya??

sounds good john!!! i had a just a bit of spare $ recently so i
picked up a bunch of quality cables, rewired the studio, bought the
new alesis micron, and a focusrite twintrak pro pre. my serge isnn't
doing much right now, i'm afraid....

> Cynthia modules are cool but thay can't compete with acreage and
>Kyma is a computer so right off the bat it isn't worth sh**.....
>
>kind regards
>
>john duval <------needing more caffeine

instead of caffeine, i suggest trying the "nitro to go" "legal speed" pills:

http://www.nitro2go.com/hi_energy.html

i tried a couple of these last week ($1 at the friendly neighborhood
liquor store) and the result was the begining of the studio rewiring
mentioned above. i was seriously amped and just had to do
*something*. in the end it was worth the dollar, for sure! and i
could get to sleep that night, and no fear of the black helicopters
comin' down on me!!! ;^)

i think the shit that pumps you up in this stuff is "yohimbe" or
something like that.

b.


Keep on Patchin'!



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Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by ALMAGATA@telefonica.net

I was about to do the same, I have another 10K spare $ and i begin to
sold some polysynths here in europe for getting a 200e... But suddenly
guido (guidotoons) point me that the 259e Oscillator modules are
d*g*t*l.
I asked Don regarding this issue, since the description for the 200e
points is an analog system with digital control of parameters...
Don replied me than all the modules in the 200e have both digital and
analog circuits. The 259e have an analog part that acording to Don is:
potentiometers, voltage control and signal... Hmmm, how about the sound
generation???? DSP based? Is software based? microprocessors? I asked
those new questions to Don and I`m waiting for a reply,meanwhile I hold
all my sales of gear since if the siganal generation and processing
part of the new Buchla is digital, I`ll keep my $$$ and my polysynths...
I`ll post details for those questions when I receive the reply from Don.

Best regards,

Josue

----- Mensaje Original -----
De: Ryan Ryan <hal3001@...>
Fecha: Sábado, Septiembre 18, 2004 6:46 pm
Asunto: Re: [SergeModular] more lure ....
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> why isn't anyone thinking the obvious...
>
> and buy a buchla 200e for 20,000 O_o
>
> Blake Wilson <mbw@...> wrote:
> >....?? some other "spare" 10K ??? hahahaha... ok. it's a game
> >right? : ) Now, if i could sell MY Serge, i think i'd buy a
> >couple acres out in the boondocks and plant a double wide on it
> and
> >give official notice that the rest of the world can kiss my
> >butt. How does that grab ya??
>
> sounds good john!!! i had a just a bit of spare $ recently so i
> picked up a bunch of quality cables, rewired the studio, bought
> the
> new alesis micron, and a focusrite twintrak pro pre. my serge
> isnn't
> doing much right now, i'm afraid....
>
> > Cynthia modules are cool but thay can't compete with acreage
> and
> >Kyma is a computer so right off the bat it isn't worth sh**.....
> >
> >kind regards
> >
> >john duval <------needing more caffeine
>
> instead of caffeine, i suggest trying the "nitro to go" "legal
> speed" pills:
>
> http://www.nitro2go.com/hi_energy.html
>
> i tried a couple of these last week ($1 at the friendly
> neighborhood
> liquor store) and the result was the begining of the studio
> rewiring
> mentioned above. i was seriously amped and just had to do
> *something*. in the end it was worth the dollar, for sure! and i
> could get to sleep that night, and no fear of the black
> helicopters
> comin' down on me!!! ;^)
>
> i think the shit that pumps you up in this stuff is "yohimbe" or
> something like that.
>
> b.
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
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> Service.
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>
>
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Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Chris Whitten

> if the siganal generation and processing
> part of the new Buchla is digital, I`ll keep my $$$ and my polysynths...
Probably wise.
> I`ll post details for those questions when I receive the reply from Don.
Thanks. I'd be interested.
If I went the 200e route, I'd buy modules individually and integrate them
with my current Buchla, Serge, Modcan systems.
Even if digital, there are still some hot looking 200e modules (like the
wacky looking sequencer).

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by cuari7

Digital, huh?
Well, knowing the reputation that old Buchla oscillators had for
being so damn unstable, this may not be a bad thing at all. Now,
charging $1400 for a monophonic digital oscillator in 2004 is a wee
bit excessive (shit, you can get yourself 3 Evolvers with that kinda
money!).
I guess that buying someting like the Buchla should be decided
according to the kind of music you make. It seems like this thing is
only good for "bug" music. Which, in my opinion, makes the Serge a
lot more powerful a synthesizer (the Serge vco's are damn stable,
with more "spiciness" than other stable vco's out there, such as the
MOTM). The Wave Multipliers and Triple Waveshapers are INCREDIBLE.
Oh, well. I still have to sell my new panel.
Have major debts.... :-(

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by John Loffink

IMO, the new Buchla 200e is an intermediary step between the Buchla 200 and
Buchla's digitally controlled 300/500 systems. Instead of controlling
modules from a master computer, each one has some circuitry inside to
capture parameters and store them.

Some limitations are inherent in this system. For the Triple Morphing
Filter, you can adjust one of the three filter parameters at a time, since
the control knobs are shared between all three filters. However, one can
also argue that complex functions from the Dual Arbitrary Function Generator
would require massive amounts of analog front panel hardware to duplicate
for real time control of every parameter.

IMHO, it boils down to the following, specific dollar amounts aside:

If you want real time control of every parameter, continue with your Serge,
MOTM or other analog modular. There are many module options for these
various systems not available on the current Buchla 200e. Example: the many
filter choices, so sonic character is another factor. Limited numbers of
programmable modules are here for those who want it: PSIM, Doepfer morphing
filter, etc.

If you want analog sound with a high degree of integrated programmability
and modular flexibility get the Buchla 200e.

If you want full programmability and patch retrieval with real time control
and interface as a secondary consideration, use one of the modular
softsynths such as Nord Modular, Reaktor or Moog Modular V. This is also
the choice for the budget conscious, for obvious reasons.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John P [mailto:johnp299792@...]
>
> the Buchla's price carries a high premium for its rarity. The sound
> quality is great I'm sure, but a lot of the 200e design is devoted to
> patch storage & midi stuff I just don't need or want.
>
> darylmey wrote:
>
> >So, let`s play a game:
> >You have a 10.000 $ Serge and some other "spare" 10 k .....
> >Now: supposed you can sell your Serge - what would you do:
> >Buy that new Push-up-Wonder-B(uchl)ra for 20 k or you keep your old
> >faith and buy some supplements (kyma, cynthia etc ....)????
> >

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by darkstr1746@comcast.net


-------------- Original message --------------
why isn't anyone thinking the obvious...
and buy a buchla 200e for 20,000 O_o

.................because after 30 years the guy still doesn't know how to compensate for temperature drift!! LMAO!!!..... or the obvious, it's still overpriced with no gaurantee of support years down the line. Lets face it, Don is a great designer and that's as far as it goes. Why do ya think all the universities stopped dealing with him ages ago?. Oh my god..... now i've shot off my mouth. I'm a gonna go get my flame suit on and head for the boondocks. I got the itchy twitchys 'cause i'm going through caffiene withdrawls, so i'm not responsible for what i'm saying. LOL.My naturopath is tellin' me i better do something to lower my blood pressure so i gotta give up a serious life long addiction. Bummer Ted : ( Up till now my motto has been, "Coffee!..you can sleep when your dead!!"

kind regards

john duval
Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by darkstr1746@comcast.net

<snip>

Oh, well. I still have to sell my new panel.
Have major debts.... :-(

Jesus... i wish you'd pipe down about that panel 'cause your starting to give me the cold sweats! LMAO!!!

john duval





Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Peter Grenader

Got that suit zipped up yet?

No seriously, there's been tons of rumors floating around about the
notoriously drift-ridden VCOs that were in the Buchla 200, most of which I
think stems from Mort Subotnick's statements in Vail's Vintage Synth book.
Please keep in mind three arguments against that:

1) Mort was speaking about the Buchla 100 VCO's in that statement, which
were as about as stable as anything else released in the late 60's

2) The 258 VCO used the very same heated transistor pair that the Minimoog
version 2 did in their VCOs - the UA728, which was considered state of the
art back then and the single biggest weapon in the 'war against drift' in
both those circuits and it's always a chuckle to me that I don't hear a lot
about the instability of the minimoogs.

3) You guys ever try an Arp 2500 VCO or Putney VCS3? You wanna hear drift?
Try those babies on for size.

So, I'm not saying the 200 was the most stable thing in the world, but it
was better than a few at the time.

I remember at the 2001 Namm show in Anaheim I was speaking to the guys at
Technosaurus who said point blank - their [analog] VCOs do not drift. Not
feeling like getting into it I just open my eyes wide and said something
like 'REALLY?....woooOOOOooow. Fact is, this is complete nonsense.

A) ALL analog VCOs drift

B) IMHO, drift is one of the most overrated criteria in VCOs and I think for
many gets in the way of judging the overall musicality of the instrument.

C) And I don't know if this is a fact, but from what I've now read on the
lists about the 259e and the (until we know for sure) rumor of DSP, Don
addresses the issue of drift and does the only thing he can to make it go
away - goes digital - and still people comment! Give the guy a break!

D) The original Buchla 200 was not designed to be played like an equal
tempered instrument and because of its size and weight I would say more akin
to studio work - re-tuning every once in a while does not outweigh the
mindblow of having that instrument under your fingers.

peace,

Peter








t there, darkstr1746@... wrote:


-------------- Original message --------------
why isn't anyone thinking the obvious...
and buy a buchla 200e for 20,000 O_o


.................because after 30 years the guy still doesn't know how to
compensate for temperature drift!! LMAO!!!..... or the obvious, it's still
overpriced with no gaurantee of support years down the line. Lets face it,
Don is a great designer and that's as far as it goes. Why do ya think all
the universities stopped dealing with him ages ago?. Oh my god..... now i've
shot off my mouth. I'm a gonna go get my flame suit on and head for the
boondocks. I got the itchy twitchys 'cause i'm going through caffiene
withdrawls, so i'm not responsible for what i'm saying. LOL.My naturopath is
tellin' me i better do something to lower my blood pressure so i gotta give
up a serious life long addiction. Bummer Ted : ( Up till now my motto
has been, "Coffee!..you can sleep when your dead!!"

kind regards

john duval


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Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by Chris Whitten

I agree with Peter 100%.
I have a couple of Buchla 200 Oscillators and they don't appreciably drift.
Do NOT appreciably drift.
Any of you critical guys actually work with a Buchla?
I'm not saying the 200e is going to be any great shakes, I'm not a big fan
of Don either, but it seems the mention of a new system has triggered an
outpouring of bile for some reason.
I enjoy using my Serge, I enjoy using my Buchla.
The sight of Serge list members struggling to slam Buchla the hardest seems
sad to me.

Chris is a very smart man...

2004-09-18 by Peter Grenader

I agree back with Chris' point.

One thing I really appreciate about the Serge is while its functionally
similar to the Buchla, Tcherepnin went about it in a completely different
way than Don did. While it's methods of control, control processing and
intent (not originally designed as a keyboard type instrument) were similar
and influenced Serge's conception, under the hood it's a completely
different animal. About the closest they come to one another would be the
random voltage generator in that they both use a noise modulated LFO as the
random source, but the Serge Random unit and Buchla Source of Uncertainty
have very different personalities.

- P

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-18 by John P

Just my .02 here.... I work on compositions that can take weeks or
months to finish. Being able to rely on the stable vco's giving me what
I want week in & week out is nice.

Also, if you tune 2 osc's together to achieve a slow beat frequency,
minor short term variations stick out like a sore thumb. If you're
after hash, that's fine, but if you want consistency, it's not.

Of course, stability is not the only thing in the world....

Peter Grenader wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>A) ALL analog VCOs drift
>
>B) IMHO, drift is one of the most overrated criteria in VCOs and I think for
>many gets in the way of judging the overall musicality of the instrument.
>
>
>
>

--
m/n/m/l
surreal electronic music, sound, noise
http://mnml.soulcatcher.net

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Chris Whitten

> Being able to rely on the stable vco's giving me what
> I want week in & week out is nice.

You're still assuming you can't rely on Buchla VCO's. Why? Have you had
personal experience?
You're also assuming the Serge VCO is more stable than a Buchla VCO.
In my experience (in use), they are just about the same.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by John P

Not at all. I was just giving my take on Pete's comment that stability
was overrated.
If I had the luxury of having both Serge & Buchla, I'd probably enjoy
them both.

I right, wrong, or indifferent, I do think the prices on used Buchla
gear is hysterical.
But "the market is always right".

Chris Whitten wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>You're still assuming you can't rely on Buchla VCO's. Why? Have you had
>personal experience?
>You're also assuming the Serge VCO is more stable than a Buchla VCO.
>In my experience (in use), they are just about the same.
>
>
>
http://mnml.soulcatcher.net

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Chris Whitten

> I do think the prices on used Buchla
> gear is hysterical.
The prices ARE hysterical.
CW

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

Chris Whitten wrote:

> You're also assuming the Serge VCO is more stable than a Buchla VCO.
> In my experience (in use), they are just about the same.

Chris speaks the truth here and here's why:

I did a test to determine how horrible my VCO's were stacking up as far as
base stability (not temperature cycling mind you). I tested mine against
the Blacet, A. Systems RS-95, PCO and an old Steiner-Parker VCO which isn't
the greatest as far as features, but does have the purest sinewaves I've
ever heard in my life.

Mine did fair better than the PCO, A. Sys and Steiner-Parker, and just a
hair below the Blacet (by about 2 hertz at 1k nominal). But this isn't why
I'm bringing this up. While I didn't have the 258 here during that test, I
did measure the one I did have a couple of months before and the 258 had
less drift than the PCO when both were running over an extended period of
time with the exact same test conditions.

The 'you really don't need to read this unless you're spellbound by what I'm
talking about' department:

Without going into full-bore VCO 101 - their core is really nothing more
than as self cycling AR generator. Some have equal attack and decay (thus a
triangle wave) like the Buchla, Wiard, Aries and Plan B does. Others have
all attach and no decay (thus a saw) like the Serge and many many other VCO
do. Stuck in that feedback loop is what's called an expediential converter.
An expo converter forces current into the VCO's core loop which in turn
increases or decreases it's oscillating frequency. That's how VCOs work.
After the core, the signal is fed through a series of waveshapers to derive
the other waveforms, but that's also not important here.

What is important is the expo converter, it's main component being two
transistors which are linked together to form what's called a current mirror
in which a varying voltage going into them is converted to the varying
current that's forced into the core loop. These two trannies are VERY
sensitive to outside temperature fluctuations and this is where the
instability comes from in VCO designs. While there ain't no way to get rid
of it outside of going (ack!) digital, you CAN compensate for it in analog
VCOs by either doing your best to normalize the operating temp these
trannies are exposed to or by introducing temperature compensating circuitry
such as a tempco resistor that (somewhat) counteracts the current drift.

Neither of these two methods are fail safe, which is why Technosaurus was
full of crap when they stated their analog VCOs didn't drift.

Let's discuss the first method. By intentionally heating the two
transistors up they become less effected by outside temperature variations.
This is what Serge and Buchla (and Moog for that matter) did, yet they did
it in different ways. The Buchla 258 and the Minimoog used a matched tranny
pair called a UA726 which is sealed in a metal can and has an internal
heater in it - it's designed into the part. You use an external resistor to
determine the internal operating temperature at the chip inside. The UA726
is designed to be heated up to normalize the current drift The package is
so thermally isolated you can hardly feel the rise in temperature inside if
you touch the metal can. - this is also intentional: if you can't feel the
heat coming out, it stands to reason you can't feel the cold coming in,
either.

Serge used another part called a 3046, which is not self heating. A 3046
consists of a bunch of isolated transistors in a single DIP package, two of
which are configured in exactly the way required to create a current mirror.
Since this part is monolithic (meaning all of the transistors are on a
single chip inside) what Serge and Analogue Systems did is configure the
unused trannies in this package to heat up, thus raising the temp of the
chip inside to attempt to do what the UA726 did by design. The big
difference is however the 3046 is not as well insulated as the 726 is, so
more heat dissipates out of the package which increases it's vulnerability
to the thermal conditions outside.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by cuari7

Thank you, Peter!
The tone of the thread has become significantly more positive thanx
to you.
The bottom line is that the 200e looks beautiful and is sooooooo
tempting, but is also soooooooo expensive! I must confess that most
of the negative remarks I make about the machine are a defense
mechanism: they help soothe the frustration I feel about not being
able to afford one, but in all honesty, if it was 50% less expensive
and I didn't have my other financial commitments, I'd get one.
Now, Chris is right, too. Most of us have not had quality time with
one, but we have listened to recordings of it. I was talking to
Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
not that impressive.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

Hey, that's not fair!

One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. While
it would be rather easy to assume there wouldn't be that much of a
difference, the differences were vast

Wait about 2 months until Barry Schrader's Lost Atlantis CD (Innova
Recordings) is released before you make an assessment. Just trust me on
this!

- P


cuari7 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thank you, Peter!
> The tone of the thread has become significantly more positive thanx
> to you.
> The bottom line is that the 200e looks beautiful and is sooooooo
> tempting, but is also soooooooo expensive! I must confess that most
> of the negative remarks I make about the machine are a defense
> mechanism: they help soothe the frustration I feel about not being
> able to afford one, but in all honesty, if it was 50% less expensive
> and I didn't have my other financial commitments, I'd get one.
> Now, Chris is right, too. Most of us have not had quality time with
> one, but we have listened to recordings of it. I was talking to
> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> not that impressive.
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by cuari7

Oooops! Not done yet.
So my question to all of you true Buchla owners is: what other
advantages does the Booch offer?
Who knows, I might be in a position to afford one in a couple of
years...
Oh, and John, I will shut up about my panel. I apologize if I've
been spamming too much here. Truth is, I have my girl constantly
pestering me about the issue of "transportation", and has managed to
awaken a major feeling of guilt on me for indulging in my synths
while she doesn't have a car >:-(
Oh, well..........

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Chris Whitten

> I was talking to
> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> not that impressive.
There is no doubt in my mind that a Buchla 200 system is equal in power and
sonic capabilities to a Serge.
Problem is, Serge systems are much more widespread and therefore being used
in many ways. Due to the financial commitment, it seems most Buchla 200
systems are held by collectors and enthusiasts alone.
Having owned both systems, in my opinion the Serge Wave Multiplier, Resonant
EQ, DSG, UAP and Frequency Shifter can't be beat.
On the Buchla side....
MOST of the modules are way more 'out there' than anything STS offers.
Pulse generators, Comb Filters with an output for each frequency, the
Complex Waveform Generator, which combines the equivalent of several Serge
modules in one unit. I can't even talk about some of the weirder modules
which, due to their rarity, I've never seen let alone heard.
The basic Buchla Oscillator is more limited in features than the NTO, but in
my opinion sounds a lot more ballsy.
Both Serge and Buchla are valid and equal in my opinion though.
As to the 200e?......
Well who knows.
On the face of it, again the modules are far more adventurous than anything
Serge. If you can afford it, it all comes down to performance and
reliability though. Serge already has the points on the board (as they say
in sports). Buchla and Associates have yet to prove they can pull off a
brand new modular system.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

Well, the maiin benefits (IMHO) of the Buchla and the Serge for that matter
over Moog and Arp, and EML and EMS was QUAD and the level of voltage control
possibilities. The Buchla only had two sound generators - vco's and white
noise. Well, the filters if you count them as VCOs. As far as sound
modifers had only two types of filters - the bandpass and the Lowpass gates,
a wicked frequency shifter,a ring mod, quad panner and reverb. That was it.
No phasors (although it could be done in a patch), no wavetables, no vast
array of filters, no flanger, and until the 259 VCO was released, no
waveshapers.

But the level of voltage control in those modules was amazing and the pallet
of modules at your disposal to control them with unheard of at the time and
I dare say that outside of Wiard, Serge and Blacet, not approached even
today.

I got the idea for a VC direction input on Milton from the Buchla sequencer.
The 266 and even 265 Sources of Uncertainty were a mind blow, the MARF is a
wet dream (when it worked, that is). Envelope generator you could stretch
to tens of minutes or as fast as 2 ms. His sequencing quad sample and hold
was designed to be used for four voice keyboard polyphony - and it worked!

- P




cuari7 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Oooops! Not done yet.
> So my question to all of you true Buchla owners is: what other
> advantages does the Booch offer?
> Who knows, I might be in a position to afford one in a couple of
> years...
> Oh, and John, I will shut up about my panel. I apologize if I've
> been spamming too much here. Truth is, I have my girl constantly
> pestering me about the issue of "transportation", and has managed to
> awaken a major feeling of guilt on me for indulging in my synths
> while she doesn't have a car >:-(
> Oh, well..........
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Chris Whitten

> So my question to all of you true Buchla owners is: what other
> advantages does the Booch offer?
Briefly....
It's just different (not better).
I *like* the splitting of audio from voltage control. It just makes you
think differently.
Someone said the Buchla 200e Oscillator was monophonic (in a rather
dismissive way). I have the 200 version of the Complex Waveform Generator.
Although not equal to anything Serge, it packs a lot of features into a
single unit and sounds AWESOME.
The appeal of Buchla over Serge to me is the wackyness of some of the Buchla
designs.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by kirkdegiorgio

> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was talking to
> > Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> > exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> > not that impressive.

actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise Sidewinder, 4
Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have 200 series
photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild Bull that used the
100 Series.

Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these albums to be
highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos that I find
superior to other attempts at this type of music.

I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard make me
think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I have a Serge/
Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm worried
about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on this list
as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the system. Its a
MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as you want
it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing 200 series
systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc. The $20k
system is just a suggested example.

Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how digital some of the
modules are...

KD

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?

Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.

Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
in the meantime.






kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was
>> talking to
>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
>>> not that impressive.
>
> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
> Sidewinder, 4
> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have
> 200 series
> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
> Bull that used the
> 100 Series.
>
> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
> albums to be
> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos
> that I find
> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
>
> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
> make me
> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I have
> a Serge/
> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm
> worried
> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on
> this list
> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the
> system. Its a
> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
> you want
> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing
> 200 series
> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc.
> The $20k
> system is just a suggested example.
>
> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
> digital some of the
> modules are...
>
> KD
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Chris Whitten

> Its a
> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
> you want
> it to be
A good point.
I was thinking about buying one or two modules to start with.
I wouldn't want to spend THAT amount of money on someone else's idea of a
'perfect' compliment of modules either. For example (like others) I'm not
particularly interested in the midi aspect.
The heavy investment on complete systems is one of the most frequent
criticisms of Serge.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

OK, now that we're (read: I'm) walking down memory lane here, let me
complete the story, there are some funny parts to it.

Mort borught a few people with him from the East when Cal Arts was formed.
They were: Ingram Marshall, Charlimaine Palestine, Serge Tcherepnin and
Barry Schrader. He also brought in Don Buchla on staff, but Don was never
there much.

When the school first started, it had an abundance of $$. They bought tons
and tons of equipment: they pre-ordered two 200's, and bought a 100 for the
school and another 100 expressly for Mel Powell's home studio. One of the
100's was from the red-faced San Fransicso Tape Music markings days and
those modules I guess are worth more now because of those faceplates. They
also bought tons and tons of tape decks, including many Revox's and some
Ampex three channels machines. They had so many Revox's that Barry said
they'd use them to prop doors open!

Mort was the assistant dean of the school of music at the time and had a lot
of say to where the spending went. So, naturally there was a ton of music
equipment. What he didn't buy though - intentionally - where chairs Yes
folks, the Cal Arts School of Music had no chairs, anywhere their first
year. Classes where held on the floor. Not sure how cellists got along.
Even the 200's spend their first year held low to the floor by bricks. It
was total anarchy: Barry Schrader's tech class, where he taught students how
to use the 200 was held at midnight. Serge and he did a live concert once
at the Ambassador Hotel downtown. Barry shlept'd the 200 and Serge played
violin believe it or not. There's another story that's a riot --> Serge
once asked to borrow Barry's car for an hour or so and didn't return it for
three days - leaving Barry stranded at school!

Man, those were the days. I wasn't around yet but I remember the stories
vividly. In any event, this was all after Touch was completed!

- P


Peter Grenader wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
> Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
> other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
> least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
> the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?
>
> Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
> don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.
>
> Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
> one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
> delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
> wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
> Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
> stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
> installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
> Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
> the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
> in the meantime.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> kirkdegiorgio wrote:
>
>>
>>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
>>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was
>>> talking to
>>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
>>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
>>>> not that impressive.
>>
>> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
>> Sidewinder, 4
>> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have
>> 200 series
>> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
>> Bull that used the
>> 100 Series.
>>
>> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
>> albums to be
>> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos
>> that I find
>> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
>>
>> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
>> make me
>> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I
>> have
>> a Serge/
>> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm
>> worried
>> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on
>> this list
>> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the
>> system. Its a
>> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
>> you want
>> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing
>> 200 series
>> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc.
>> The $20k
>> system is just a suggested example.
>>
>> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
>> digital some of the
>> modules are...
>>
>> KD
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Cal Arts ANALOG electronic music concert: Sat, Sept 25th.

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

Composer Barry Schrader Presents a World Premiere and an Electronic Classic
at CalArts:


Valencia, California -- Barry Schrader presents the world premiere of his
electronic music composition Death at CalArts on Saturday, Sept. 25, at 8
p.m. The concert will be held in CalArts' Roy O. Disney Music Hall.
CalArts is located at 24700 McBean Parkway in Valencia. Admission is free.
For information, call the CalArts Ticket Office at (661) 253-7800.

Schrader's concert will also offer the rare opportunity to hear selections
from his 1977 analog electronic music epic Lost Atlantis presented in its
original four-channel version which includes a recorded narration by the
late Nicholas England, former dean of CalArts School of Music. Lost
Atlantis will soon be released on an Innova CD under a grant from The Aaron
Copland Fund for Music Recording Program.

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by kirkdegiorgio

Hi Peter

I stand corrected re: Touch.. thx for clarifying that -I always tended to see Touch -
Sidewinder - 4 Butterflies - Until Spring as a Quartet, but now I will view the latter 3 as a
200 Series trilogy... awesome sounds and control nonetheless... and I repeat - I'm not a
huge bug music fan...

KD
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> OK, now that we're (read: I'm) walking down memory lane here, let me
> complete the story, there are some funny parts to it.
>
> Mort borught a few people with him from the East when Cal Arts was formed.
> They were: Ingram Marshall, Charlimaine Palestine, Serge Tcherepnin and
> Barry Schrader. He also brought in Don Buchla on staff, but Don was never
> there much.
>
> When the school first started, it had an abundance of $$. They bought tons
> and tons of equipment: they pre-ordered two 200's, and bought a 100 for the
> school and another 100 expressly for Mel Powell's home studio. One of the
> 100's was from the red-faced San Fransicso Tape Music markings days and
> those modules I guess are worth more now because of those faceplates. They
> also bought tons and tons of tape decks, including many Revox's and some
> Ampex three channels machines. They had so many Revox's that Barry said
> they'd use them to prop doors open!
>
> Mort was the assistant dean of the school of music at the time and had a lot
> of say to where the spending went. So, naturally there was a ton of music
> equipment. What he didn't buy though - intentionally - where chairs Yes
> folks, the Cal Arts School of Music had no chairs, anywhere their first
> year. Classes where held on the floor. Not sure how cellists got along.
> Even the 200's spend their first year held low to the floor by bricks. It
> was total anarchy: Barry Schrader's tech class, where he taught students how
> to use the 200 was held at midnight. Serge and he did a live concert once
> at the Ambassador Hotel downtown. Barry shlept'd the 200 and Serge played
> violin believe it or not. There's another story that's a riot --> Serge
> once asked to borrow Barry's car for an hour or so and didn't return it for
> three days - leaving Barry stranded at school!
>
> Man, those were the days. I wasn't around yet but I remember the stories
> vividly. In any event, this was all after Touch was completed!
>
> - P
>
>
> Peter Grenader wrote:
>
> > Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
> > Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
> > other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
> > least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
> > the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?
> >
> > Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
> > don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.
> >
> > Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
> > one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
> > delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
> > wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
> > Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
> > stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
> > installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
> > Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
> > the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
> > in the meantime.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > kirkdegiorgio wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
> >>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was
> >>> talking to
> >>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> >>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> >>>> not that impressive.
> >>
> >> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
> >> Sidewinder, 4
> >> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have
> >> 200 series
> >> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
> >> Bull that used the
> >> 100 Series.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
> >> albums to be
> >> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos
> >> that I find
> >> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
> >>
> >> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
> >> make me
> >> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I
> >> have
> >> a Serge/
> >> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm
> >> worried
> >> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on
> >> this list
> >> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the
> >> system. Its a
> >> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
> >> you want
> >> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing
> >> 200 series
> >> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc.
> >> The $20k
> >> system is just a suggested example.
> >>
> >> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
> >> digital some of the
> >> modules are...
> >>
> >> KD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Keep on Patchin'!
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Re: more lure ....

2004-09-19 by Peter Grenader

No worries. One tell tale sign about Touch - you can hear high pass filters
all over the place - only the 100 had high pass.


kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi Peter
>
> I stand corrected re: Touch.. thx for clarifying that -I always tended to see
> Touch -
> Sidewinder - 4 Butterflies - Until Spring as a Quartet, but now I will view
> the latter 3 as a
> 200 Series trilogy... awesome sounds and control nonetheless... and I repeat -
> I'm not a
> huge bug music fan...
>
> KD
>
>
>> OK, now that we're (read: I'm) walking down memory lane here, let me
>> complete the story, there are some funny parts to it.
>>
>> Mort borught a few people with him from the East when Cal Arts was formed.
>> They were: Ingram Marshall, Charlimaine Palestine, Serge Tcherepnin and
>> Barry Schrader. He also brought in Don Buchla on staff, but Don was never
>> there much.
>>
>> When the school first started, it had an abundance of $$. They bought tons
>> and tons of equipment: they pre-ordered two 200's, and bought a 100 for the
>> school and another 100 expressly for Mel Powell's home studio. One of the
>> 100's was from the red-faced San Fransicso Tape Music markings days and
>> those modules I guess are worth more now because of those faceplates. They
>> also bought tons and tons of tape decks, including many Revox's and some
>> Ampex three channels machines. They had so many Revox's that Barry said
>> they'd use them to prop doors open!
>>
>> Mort was the assistant dean of the school of music at the time and had a lot
>> of say to where the spending went. So, naturally there was a ton of music
>> equipment. What he didn't buy though - intentionally - where chairs Yes
>> folks, the Cal Arts School of Music had no chairs, anywhere their first
>> year. Classes where held on the floor. Not sure how cellists got along.
>> Even the 200's spend their first year held low to the floor by bricks. It
>> was total anarchy: Barry Schrader's tech class, where he taught students how
>> to use the 200 was held at midnight. Serge and he did a live concert once
>> at the Ambassador Hotel downtown. Barry shlept'd the 200 and Serge played
>> violin believe it or not. There's another story that's a riot --> Serge
>> once asked to borrow Barry's car for an hour or so and didn't return it for
>> three days - leaving Barry stranded at school!
>>
>> Man, those were the days. I wasn't around yet but I remember the stories
>> vividly. In any event, this was all after Touch was completed!
>>
>> - P
>>
>>
>> Peter Grenader wrote:
>>
>>> Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
>>> Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
>>> other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
>>> least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
>>> the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?
>>>
>>> Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
>>> don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.
>>>
>>> Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
>>> one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
>>> delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
>>> wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
>>> Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
>>> stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
>>> installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
>>> Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
>>> the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
>>> in the meantime.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> kirkdegiorgio wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
>>>>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I
>>>>> was
>>>>> talking to
>>>>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
>>>>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
>>>>>> not that impressive.
>>>>
>>>> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
>>>> Sidewinder, 4
>>>> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and
>>>> have
>>>> 200 series
>>>> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
>>>> Bull that used the
>>>> 100 Series.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
>>>> albums to be
>>>> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of
>>>> chaos
>>>> that I find
>>>> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
>>>>
>>>> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
>>>> make me
>>>> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I
>>>> have
>>>> a Serge/
>>>> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and
>>>> I'm
>>>> worried
>>>> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again -
>>>> on
>>>> this list
>>>> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy
>>>> the
>>>> system. Its a
>>>> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive
>>>> as
>>>> you want
>>>> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their
>>>> existing
>>>> 200 series
>>>> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer,
>>>> etc.
>>>> The $20k
>>>> system is just a suggested example.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
>>>> digital some of the
>>>> modules are...
>>>>
>>>> KD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep on Patchin'!
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> Keep on Patchin'!
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Non bug music serge users?

2004-09-19 by Ryan Ryan

Hey thinking about this, I was wondering. How many people on this list make music that's not bug music? or experimental bleepy stuff?
-ryan

kirkdegiorgio <kirk.degiorgio@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Hi Peter

I stand corrected re: Touch.. thx for clarifying that -I always tended to see Touch -
Sidewinder - 4 Butterflies - Until Spring as a Quartet, but now I will view the latter 3 as a
200 Series trilogy... awesome sounds and control nonetheless... and I repeat - I'm not a
huge bug music fan...

KD


> OK, now that we're (read: I'm) walking down memory lane here, let me
> complete the story, there are some funny parts to it.
>
> Mort borught a few people with him from the East when Cal Arts was formed.
> They were: Ingram Marshall, Charlimaine Palestine, Serge Tcherepnin and
> Barry Schrader. He also brought in Don Buchla on staff, but Don was never
> there much.
>
> When the school first started, it had an abundance of $$. They bought tons
> and tons of equipment: they pre-ordered two 200's, and bought a 100 for the
> school and another 100 expressly for Mel Powell's home studio. One of the
> 100's was from the red-faced San Fransicso Tape Music markings days and
> those modules I guess are worth more now because of those faceplates. They
> also bought tons and tons of tape decks, including many Revox's and some
> Ampex three channels machines. They had so many Revox's that Barry said
> they'd use them to prop doors open!
>
> Mort was the assistant dean of the school of music at the time and had a lot
> of say to where the spending went. So, naturally there was a ton of music
> equipment. What he didn't buy though - intentionally - where chairs Yes
> folks, the Cal Arts School of Music had no chairs, anywhere their first
> year. Classes where held on the floor. Not sure how cellists got along.
> Even the 200's spend their first year held low to the floor by bricks. It
> was total anarchy: Barry Schrader's tech class, where he taught students how
> to use the 200 was held at midnight. Serge and he did a live concert once
> at the Ambassador Hotel downtown. Barry shlept'd the 200 and Serge played
> violin believe it or not. There's another story that's a riot --> Serge
> once asked to borrow Barry's car for an hour or so and didn't return it for
> three days - leaving Barry stranded at school!
>
> Man, those were the days. I wasn't around yet but I remember the stories
> vividly. In any event, this was all after Touch was completed!
>
> - P
>
>
> Peter Grenader wrote:
>
> > Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
> > Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
> > other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
> > least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
> > the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?
> >
> > Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
> > don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.
> >
> > Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
> > one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
> > delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
> > wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
> > Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
> > stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
> > installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
> > Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
> > the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
> > in the meantime.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > kirkdegiorgio wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
> >>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was
> >>> talking to
> >>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> >>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> >>>> not that impressive.
> >>
> >> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
> >> Sidewinder, 4
> >> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have
> >> 200 series
> >> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
> >> Bull that used the
> >> 100 Series.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
> >> albums to be
> >> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos
> >> that I find
> >> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
> >>
> >> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
> >> make me
> >> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I
> >> have
> >> a Serge/
> >> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm
> >> worried
> >> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on
> >> this list
> >> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the
> >> system. Its a
> >> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
> >> you want
> >> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing
> >> 200 series
> >> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc.
> >> The $20k
> >> system is just a suggested example.
> >>
> >> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
> >> digital some of the
> >> modules are...
> >>
> >> KD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Keep on Patchin'!
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



Keep on Patchin'!



Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.

Re: Non bug music serge users?

2004-09-19 by Carbon111

Ryan Ryan wrote:
> Hey thinking about this, I was wondering. How many people on this list
> make music that's not bug music? or experimental bleepy stuff?

I do. I think a lot of folks using a standard keyboard to drive their
Serge will come up with at least a couple of tunes with melody and maybe
some sort of chorus-verse structure ;)
'Course I like bug music too...the inevitable lure of the self-playing
Serge patch is hard to resist forever ^_^
Best Regards, James
--
http://www.carbon111.com

Re: Non bug music serge users?

2004-09-19 by darkstr1746@comcast.net

Not sure what "bug" music is, but if i had to venture a guess, it would be something along the lines of Beastiary and the cut off my own CD called Paleozoic Twilight. I try like hell to stay away from that sort of thing but it's tough 'because i have no formal training in electronics. So far i'v been lucky and actualy have several hours of non"bug" music in the can and about an hours worth i'm still working on. Don't take any of the previous statement to mean that any of it is any good..... alot of it isn't worth the tape it's printed on, but some of it i like very much and may even be worthy of future release. I'v had several amusing conversations with Kevin where i tried politely to pick his brains so to speak and evey time the general response was....."roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty and figure it out for yourself." One time he did however lay an interesting patch for the dual phasor on me, but i was driving in my car (on the freeway ) and by the time i got home it was gone.... sigh. I have tried several times to replicate the sounds on Planetary Unfoldings but so far i lack the chops. Not that i want to use a similar approach or even use those sounds for my own work, but i would just like to be aware of the technique involved. I guess my true feeling is, it's been done before and much better than i will ever be able to do, so why go down an already well worn path. Telomere has done it in spades and the last thing i want to do is a repeat of Stearns approximation of Brehenys patches, but like i said, just knowing the technique would open up a world of new doors. I love what Stearns did with those patches, his sense of placement is phenomenal to my ear. So i trudge on, hoping to develope my own techniques and to just have fun with what i do.

kind regards

john duval


Show quoted textHide quoted text
-------------- Original message --------------
Hey thinking about this, I was wondering. How many people on this list make music that's not bug music? or experimental bleepy stuff?
-ryan

kirkdegiorgio wrote:
Hi Peter

I stand corrected re: Touch.. thx for clarifying that -I always tended to see Touch -
Sidewinder - 4 Butterflies - Until Spring as a Quartet, but now I will view the latter 3 as a
200 Series trilogy... awesome sounds and control nonetheless... and I repeat - I'm not a
huge bug music fan...

KD


> OK, now that we're (read: I'm) walking down memory lane here, let me
> complete the story, there are some funny parts to it.
>
> Mort borught a few people with him from the East when Cal Arts was formed.
> They were: Ingram Marshall, Charlimaine Palestine, Serge Tcherepnin and
> Barry Schrader. He also brought in Don Buchla on staff, but Don was never
> there much.
>
> When the school first started, it had an abundance of $$. They bought tons
> and tons of equipment: they pre-ordered two 200's, and bought a 100 for the
> school and another 100 expressly for Mel Powell's home studio. One of the
> 100's was from the red-faced San Fransicso Tape Music markings days and
> those modules I guess are worth more now because of those faceplates. They
> also bought tons and tons of tape decks, including many Revox's and some
> Ampex three channels machines. They had so many Revox's that Barry said
> they'd use them to prop doors open!
>
> Mort was the assistant dean of the school of music at the time and had a lot
> of say to where the spending went. So, naturally there was a ton of music
> equipment. What he didn't buy though - intentionally - where chairs Yes
> folks, the Cal Arts School of Music had no chairs, anywhere their first
> year. Classes where held on the floor. Not sure how cellists got along.
> Even the 200's spend their first year held low to the floor by bricks. It
> was total anarchy: Barry Schrader's tech class, where he taught students how
> to use the 200 was held at midnight. Serge and he did a live concert once
> at the Ambassador Hotel downtown. Barry shlept'd the 200 and Serge played
> violin believe it or not. There's another story that's a riot --> Serge
> once asked to borrow Barry's car for an hour or so and didn't return it for
> three days - leaving Barry stranded at school!
>
> Man, those were the days. I wasn't around yet but I remember the stories
> vividly. In any event, this was all after Touch was completed!
>
> - P
>
>
> Peter Grenader wrote:
>
> > Nope! Touch was made while Mort was at still at NYU and on the 100.
> > Actually, the cut up/spliced human voice saying 'touch' at the beginning and
> > other places is his secretary/assistant he had there. Touch, the LP at
> > least, I don't believe had a picture. It was just the computer graphic of
> > the woman's face morphing into a rectangle (I think it was a rectangle)?
> >
> > Anyway, Touch was done in 1969 and Cal Arts didn't exist until 1971. I
> > don't think the 200 was introduced until 1971 if I'm not mistaken.
> >
> > Here's the story: The first piece Mort used the 200 was Sidewinder. It was
> > one of the systems that was intended for Cal Art's B303, but it was
> > delivered to Mort's house instead (whoops!) because the Cal Arts facility
> > wasn't completed yet and the school was still operating out a place called
> > Villa Cabrini which was a former catholic girls school in Burbank. The 200
> > stayed at Mort's for a while waiting for the Valencia campus and the studio
> > installation to be completed - the sound system, tape decks, etc.
> > Unfortunately (not!) that took longer than expected because of delays from
> > the 1971 Selmar earthquake, so Mort had it for a while and didn't Sidewinder
> > in the meantime.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > kirkdegiorgio wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> One can't judge the merits of the Buchla 200 on Subotnick's Touch - that
> >>> piece was done on a 100 system which is a completely different animal. I was
> >>> talking to
> >>>> Guido the other day, who was telling me that "Touch" by Subotnick
> >>>> exemplifies the sonic virtues of the 200. If that is so, well, it's
> >>>> not that impressive.
> >>
> >> actually Peter I thought Touch was made with the 200 Series - likewise
> >> Sidewinder, 4
> >> Butterflies and Until Spring. They are all early-mid 70's recordings and have
> >> 200 series
> >> photo's on the sleeve credits, etc. I thought it was Silver Apples and Wild
> >> Bull that used the
> >> 100 Series.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm no bug music fan but I find the sonic virtues displayed on these
> >> albums to be
> >> highly impressive! They have an organic timbre and controlled level of chaos
> >> that I find
> >> superior to other attempts at this type of music.
> >>
> >> I don't own a Buchla but the 200 series designs and the examples I've heard
> >> make me
> >> think it would be a nice system to get into regardless of the fact that I
> >> have
> >> a Serge/
> >> Modcan system. 200 series used prices are too high for me to justify and I'm
> >> worried
> >> about maintenance so the new 200e modules appeal even more to me. Again - on
> >> this list
> >> as on others people are being misleading in stating it costs $20k to buy the
> >> system. Its a
> >> MODULAR system and modules are available individually. So its as expensive as
> >> you want
> >> it to be - many will just want to buy a few modules to add to their existing
> >> 200 series
> >> systems - some may just want a small system based around the sequencer, etc.
> >> The $20k
> >> system is just a suggested example.
> >>
> >> Personally I'm waiting for actual user reports on reliability and just how
> >> digital some of the
> >> modules are...
> >>
> >> KD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Keep on Patchin'!
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep on Patchin'!
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



Keep on Patchin'!



Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.

Keep on Patchin'!



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