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Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-03-29 by Ditton33

Hi All
 
I've been having a fun time with midi cables. ;)
 
I'm trying to midi-merge the outputs from a Sequentix P3 and a GenoQs Nemo
so I can control any synth from either sequencer without swapping cables.
 
The Nemo is slaved to the P3.
 
The issue I seem to hit is that any synth I have set up with clock-sync'd
delay goes a bit haywire (ie the delay shuffles rather than bounces). I
suspect the merged clocks are the issue.
 
I'm using a Roland/Edirol UM550 to do the merge.
 
Have people successfully found a way to do this, or do you tend to hang
different synth modules off different sequencers and manually repatch when
you fancy a change?
 
Or perhaps it's the UM550 not handling clock merge very well?
 
Any advice appreciated. :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [analogue-sequencer] Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-03-29 by DB

Does the Nemo have a way to turn off the Midi Clock?  If not, then you might
want to slave the P3 to the Nemo and then go the Midi Clock option on the P3
and turn it off.

I have an MPC 4000/P3 setup and either only 1 can be emitting the clock, or
I have to mute Clock events on my MidiTimepiece from one the sequencers 
if not...


But the P3 does allow you to turn off the clock output. Try that with it 
slaving to the
Nemo....


Dave



Ditton33 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi All
>
> I've been having a fun time with midi cables. ;)
>
> I'm trying to midi-merge the outputs from a Sequentix P3 and a GenoQs Nemo
> so I can control any synth from either sequencer without swapping cables.
>
> The Nemo is slaved to the P3.
>
> The issue I seem to hit is that any synth I have set up with clock-sync'd
> delay goes a bit haywire (ie the delay shuffles rather than bounces). I
> suspect the merged clocks are the issue.
>
> I'm using a Roland/Edirol UM550 to do the merge.
>
> Have people successfully found a way to do this, or do you tend to hang
> different synth modules off different sequencers and manually repatch when
> you fancy a change?
>
> Or perhaps it's the UM550 not handling clock merge very well?
>
> Any advice appreciated. :)
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-03-29 by Ditton33

Thanks Dave, after some more experimenting I found if I put the Nemo and P3
in series rather than parallel it fixes the clock issue.

Not sure if the clock can be switched off on the Nemo. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
> >[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DB
> >Sent: 29 March 2009 20:27
> >To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [analogue-sequencer] Midi merging two 
> >sequencers / clock sync'd delay
> >
> >Does the Nemo have a way to turn off the Midi Clock?  If 
> >not, then you might want to slave the P3 to the Nemo and 
> >then go the Midi Clock option on the P3 and turn it off.
> >
> >I have an MPC 4000/P3 setup and either only 1 can be 
> >emitting the clock, or I have to mute Clock events on my 
> >MidiTimepiece from one the sequencers if not...
> >
> >
> >But the P3 does allow you to turn off the clock output. Try 
> >that with it 
> >slaving to the
> >Nemo....
> >
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >Ditton33 wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> I've been having a fun time with midi cables. ;)
> >>
> >> I'm trying to midi-merge the outputs from a Sequentix P3 
> >and a GenoQs Nemo
> >> so I can control any synth from either sequencer without 
> >swapping cables.
> >>
> >> The Nemo is slaved to the P3.
> >>
> >> The issue I seem to hit is that any synth I have set up 
> >with clock-sync'd
> >> delay goes a bit haywire (ie the delay shuffles rather 
> >than bounces). I
> >> suspect the merged clocks are the issue.
> >>
> >> I'm using a Roland/Edirol UM550 to do the merge.
> >>
> >> Have people successfully found a way to do this, or do you 
> >tend to hang
> >> different synth modules off different sequencers and 
> >manually repatch when
> >> you fancy a change?
> >>
> >> Or perhaps it's the UM550 not handling clock merge very well?
> >>
> >> Any advice appreciated. :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> .
> >>
> >> 
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >

Re: Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-04-02 by duncan

>>I found if I put the Nemo and P3 in series rather than parallel it fixes the clock issue.
Not sure if the clock can be switched off on the Nemo.<<

oohh! me! me! me!

(what does "parallel" mean in this context? the octopus allows the clock out to be disabled- has this fallen off the nemo?)

I've been using multiple hardware sequencers in midi rigs for over ten years. one of my p3's has a "clock-only" output instead of the 24/48 option, although I don't now use this.
maq, notron, p3, schaltwerk, zeit, octopus, mobius....

here are the things I had trouble with, which are now sorted:-
1) relative note-on timing.... seemed to depend on what was the master clock in a config, & how good/expensive the merge box was.
2) lost or corrupt data (esp. realtime CCs) through merge boxes.
3) things not stopping & starting in response to F8s/whatever, because although they passed clock, they weren't passing realtime commands onto midi-through connections.
4) things with clocked delays either not being clocked at all, or constantly glitching. (emu proteus, supernova, boss sx700, repeater)

until very recently, I was using ordinary merge boxes (a couple of frontline 2x1s, a philip rees 5x1, a couple of philip rees 3x1s with A&C-only-throughs, some other similar units).
eventually I got tired of having to set my emu synths to internal clock (for the delays) & then remember to change their internal midi tempo every time we did summat at a different speed with the sequencers. it helps if you know we do a lot of ratchetty berlin-school pulsey stuff with syncopated echoes.
so-
I bought, 2nd hand & quite cheaply, a "proper" midi router. this one's a MOTU micro express, the later version with usb, & can handle 4 midi inputs & 6 outputs, all of these with comprehensive filtering, merging & remapping. it took me a good long while to arrive at the right set of rules within the thing, but there was one thing that suddenly made it all work properly- filtering out ALL of the 
erm....

after all that, I can't remember, & I can't open the config in clockworks (MOTU's setup s/w) without the box attached. the box is 200 miles away.

it's something like "realtime" which may or may not include running status bytes. anyway, my advice is to not skimp on the merge function like I did for years, but to go out & get one of these little MOTU efforts while they're still making them!
the results in our rig are now /almost/ as tight-sounding as an arp 1613 connected directly to a pro-1.

duncan.

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Re: Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-04-02 by Ditton33

Hi Duncan

Many thanks for this info.

Totally agree on not skimping on the merge - this is partly why I bought the
edirol 'caus it was a premium unit in its day. It wasn't that cheap 2nd hand
because they are pretty hard to find now and have a good reputation by all
accounts. However the MOTU looks sweet, I looked long and hard for this type
of unit but never spotted the MOTU. The MOTU looks more configurable with
the computer interface too. Oh dear, more money. ;)

By "parallel" I mean I had the P3 and Nemo plugged into the Edirol with
merged output to the synth modules, and a P3 out to the Nemo to sync it. The
Nemo was of course in slave mode, but clearly it still transmitted clock.
Unfortunately the Edirol's filter functionality doesn't seem to include
clock, so I couldn't sort it out despite much head scratching.

By "series" I mean I have the P3 into the Nemo and the Nemo into the Edirol.
The P3 isn't connected to the Edirol at all. In this config the delay sync
seems to work fine because only one input device with clock is connected. 

Interesting info on the Nemo and clock off, I've not found out how to but
that's not to say it isn't there somewhere. I'll have to email Gabriel.

Cheers.

PS Apols to Colin for going OT from the P3. And what's the news on the
Cirklon! :D
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
> >[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duncan
> >Sent: 02 April 2009 18:41
> >To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [analogue-sequencer] Re: Midi merging two 
> >sequencers / clock sync'd delay
> >
> >>>I found if I put the Nemo and P3 in series rather than 
> >parallel it fixes the clock issue.
> >Not sure if the clock can be switched off on the Nemo.<<
> >
> >oohh! me! me! me!
> >
> >(what does "parallel" mean in this context? the octopus 
> >allows the clock out to be disabled- has this fallen off the nemo?)
> >
> >I've been using multiple hardware sequencers in midi rigs 
> >for over ten years. one of my p3's has a "clock-only" output 
> >instead of the 24/48 option, although I don't now use this.
> >maq, notron, p3, schaltwerk, zeit, octopus, mobius....
> >
> >here are the things I had trouble with, which are now sorted:-
> >1) relative note-on timing.... seemed to depend on what was 
> >the master clock in a config, & how good/expensive the merge box was.
> >2) lost or corrupt data (esp. realtime CCs) through merge boxes.
> >3) things not stopping & starting in response to 
> >F8s/whatever, because although they passed clock, they 
> >weren't passing realtime commands onto midi-through connections.
> >4) things with clocked delays either not being clocked at 
> >all, or constantly glitching. (emu proteus, supernova, boss 
> >sx700, repeater)
> >
> >until very recently, I was using ordinary merge boxes (a 
> >couple of frontline 2x1s, a philip rees 5x1, a couple of 
> >philip rees 3x1s with A&C-only-throughs, some other similar units).
> >eventually I got tired of having to set my emu synths to 
> >internal clock (for the delays) & then remember to change 
> >their internal midi tempo every time we did summat at a 
> >different speed with the sequencers. it helps if you know we 
> >do a lot of ratchetty berlin-school pulsey stuff with 
> >syncopated echoes.
> >so-
> >I bought, 2nd hand & quite cheaply, a "proper" midi router. 
> >this one's a MOTU micro express, the later version with usb, 
> >& can handle 4 midi inputs & 6 outputs, all of these with 
> >comprehensive filtering, merging & remapping. it took me a 
> >good long while to arrive at the right set of rules within 
> >the thing, but there was one thing that suddenly made it all 
> >work properly- filtering out ALL of the erm....
> >
> >after all that, I can't remember, & I can't open the config 
> >in clockworks (MOTU's setup s/w) without the box attached. 
> >the box is 200 miles away.
> >
> >it's something like "realtime" which may or may not include 
> >running status bytes. anyway, my advice is to not skimp on 
> >the merge function like I did for years, but to go out & get 
> >one of these little MOTU efforts while they're still making them!
> >the results in our rig are now /almost/ as tight-sounding as 
> >an arp 1613 connected directly to a pro-1.
> >
> >duncan. 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >

Re: Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-04-03 by acidmitch

> Unfortunately the Edirol's filter functionality doesn't seem to include
> clock, so I couldn't sort it out despite much head scratching.
> 

Usually you have to filter "realtime" messages to stop MIDI clock.
It doesn't actually say "MIDI clock" in the list of stuff to be filtered.

I have one of the older MOTU Micro Express interfaces with the parrallel port connection that I don't completely trust.
The MOTU stuff(not just Micro Express) does not like SYSEX messages from some synths. I've had better luck with Edirol in this regard.
You also get less latency and jitter when using computer sequencers with the Edirol stuff unless your on Digital performer.

RE: [analogue-sequencer] Re: Midi merging two sequencers / clock sync'd delay

2009-04-03 by Ditton33

Many thanks.

Yes, realtime is on the list for the Edirol. Unfortunately I don't think you
can configure it to filter one input and not the other, it's all or nothing.

That said, as you say, the Edirol does seem a top notch piece of kit -
bullet proof in construction and I've not noticed any funnies since I
removed the merged clock issue. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com 
> >[mailto:analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of acidmitch
> >Sent: 03 April 2009 08:52
> >To: analogue-sequencer@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [analogue-sequencer] Re: Midi merging two 
> >sequencers / clock sync'd delay
> >
> >
> >> Unfortunately the Edirol's filter functionality doesn't seem to 
> >> include clock, so I couldn't sort it out despite much head 
> >scratching.
> >> 
> >
> >Usually you have to filter "realtime" messages to stop MIDI clock.
> >It doesn't actually say "MIDI clock" in the list of stuff to 
> >be filtered.
> >
> >I have one of the older MOTU Micro Express interfaces with 
> >the parrallel port connection that I don't completely trust.
> >The MOTU stuff(not just Micro Express) does not like SYSEX 
> >messages from some synths. I've had better luck with Edirol 
> >in this regard.
> >You also get less latency and jitter when using computer 
> >sequencers with the Edirol stuff unless your on Digital performer.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >

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