Bc2000 (for the BCF2000 & BCR2000)

And my last observation.
Abelton has a copy of their manual online, and some nice tutorials.

So as you said, they have their own dedicated controller, and mappings to popular control surfaces.

And as you noted they have one for the BCR/F.

What I would be tempted to try here is 

1 - load their template to the BCR/F
2 - Use Mark's software (BCManager) to dump out the sysex and look at it.

What did they map where? You may have to get pen and paper out here, and write down response on Abelton from BC changes then read what it maps to.

Why? Well this is what their manuals say regarding MIDI

----------------

All manual MIDI, computer keyboard (see 26.2.5) and Macro Control (see 18.1.2) mappings are managed by the Mapping Browser .
The Mapping Browser is hidden until one of the three mapping modes is enabled. 
It will then display all mappings for the current mode. 
For each mapping, it lists the control element, the path to the mapped parameter, the parameter's name, 
and the mapping's Min and Max value ranges. 

The assigned Min and Max ranges can be edited at any time, and can be quickly inverted with a right-click (PC) 
/ CTRL -click (Mac) context menu command. Delete mappings using your computer's Backspace or Delete key.
 
Note that Instant Mappings are context based and are not displayed in the Mapping Browser. 

Their mapping structure can be displayed while working in Live by choosing the Help View option from
the Help menu and then opening the Control Surface Reference lesson.


 26.2.3 Mapping to Absolute MIDI Controllers 

Absolute MIDI controllers send messages to Live in the form of absolute values ranging from 0 to 127. 
These values lead to different results depending on the type of Live control to which they are assigned. 
A value message of 127, for example, might turn the Volume control on a Live track all the way up or play 
a Session View clip. 
Specifically, MIDI controller messages from 0 to 127 can produce the following effects on controls in Live:

·  Session View Slots — Controller values 64 and above are treated like Note On messages. 
Controller values 63 and below are treated like Note Off messages. 

·  Switches — For track activators and on/off buttons in devices, controller values that are within the 
mapping's Min and Max range turn the switch on. Controller values that are above or below this range 
turn it off. You can reverse this behavior by setting a Min value that is higher than its corresponding 
Max value. In this case, controller values that are outside of the range turn the switch on, while values 
inside the range turn it off. For all other switches (such as transport controls), controller values 64 
and above turn the switch on, while controller values below 64 turn it off. 

·  Radio Buttons — The controller's 0...127 value range is mapped onto the range of available options. 
·  Continuous Controls — The controller's 0...127 value range is mapped onto the parameter's range of values. 

Live also supports pitch bend messages and high-precision ("14-bit Absolute") controller messages with a 
0...16383 value range. The above specifications apply to these as well, 
except that the value range's center is at 8191/8192.


------------------

So you can see the manual mapping you make. It seems to be simply a CC -> an Abelton control and they calculate the scaling for you.
Makes sense ... Max has a free version (pD or Pure Data) and here the trick is to make values scale 0 ... 1.

And they use interesting trick with the NRPN, biasing to 8192 ... this is the trick I use with Miniak.

So it seems to me the hardest part will be in knowing the internal mapping of Abelton parameters.

I would probably look at their template first, and try to guess the values. I mean, for CCs there are max 127 of them and many are reserved, so they will use the common 'free' ones.

The rest I am guessing will be combination of NRPNs and RPNs.

Here is a nice tutorial on how to assign a given CC to a given param.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5kcaVfjqf4

Have fun with Abelton.

--- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, sghookings@... wrote:
>
> OK, I didnt realize Abelton is based on Max, so since this is a very versatile programming language you can pretty much do anything you want there.
> 
> And I see now, as someone else mentions, there is a new Push controller for EU500. Love the display on that thing (must look for one of those for my electronics projects).
> 
> So given these beasts exist, I can see why there might be little support for a BCR/F.
> 
> You should still be able to map it to add extra control. But these other surfaces are custom built ... and not too expensive (assuming the build quality is good).
> 
> regards
> 
> Steve H
> 
> --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, sghookings@ wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I think there is a massive impedence mismatch between musicians and techies. The great thing is I can see you have tried some things, which means you dont fall into the why cant someone else do it category! But I guess normal (reasonable) argument is 'I am a musician, I just want to play not mess with tech!' prevails for some products more than others.
> > 
> > I think perhaps why Live folks are not getting inundated with solutions is the right musician and technie mix for Live doesnt exist?
> > 
> > Whereas for a synth, whilst you can be a pure-musician just using the presets, the knobs just beg to be played with (oh er Mrs!).
> > 
> > If you know of anyone who can point out the manual material for Abelton, it is possible you might get more help.
> > 
> > Recall, the BCR/BCF is a midi controller. If your device is MIDI compliant, it can work. If it isnt, it wont work. Give up! If is is _almost_ compliant (like my Miniak) then you have a fight on your hands. But I won that one.
> > 
> > I recall even getting Midi working well with Live for one Miniak user [it was driving him crazy so I stepped in]. I downloaded a copy of Live (free N day trial) and as a self-confessed techie I found Live really non-intuitive. I was literally tearing my eyeballs out and shouting at Live 'Why dont you just work you goddamned c**k sucker!'. At least I was able to understand the problem was Live, not me or my kit! Eventually I did get it to work. But it took a lot of perserverance and deep manual reading/trial and error.
> > 
> > So again, maybe you can educate us on what live does, what you want to control, if there isnt a manual on this, can you consider grabbing some MidiOx traces so show us what Live spits out for a given control.
> > Or, since Live is computer software, maybe it is possible to tease out an intermediate approach (like Royce has done with Korgs recently) where BCR/F controls some software, and the software controls Live. Hell, if there is sufficient demand for this (like as in commercially) then I might even try to write one myself.
> > 
> > If you ask the questions at that level, then non-Live people (but Midi gurus) can help you. But if folks simply say they cannot get it to work, or alternatively they cannot get it to work they way they want it do, well it might be possible for someone to explain it can never work that way, or it can if you modify XXX.
> > 
> > Hopefully this doesnt come across as a rant, but as some tips on how to determine what is possible with a BCR/F. Until Royce and Mark got involved, not a lot. But in opening it up there are many more possibilites, but recall they provided the tools ... you have to determine how to use them ... no sledgehammers to crack nuts please!
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Steve H
> > 
> > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "patgoodfellow" <GOODFELLOWPAT@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm at the point of giving-up.. it's not like I just bought this today and I'm being hasty... I bought this 3 months ago... spent a couple of days with it back then, and gave-up and has been collecting dust since 3 days ago when I thought I'd get my shit together and figure it out. 
> > > 
> > > And during these past 3 days I've read too many threads on setting this up from people just as confused as me... and many 'fixes'.... but I'm not technical in that way, I want something that needs 1 hour 'optimizing' and is then god to go. It's 2013 for Christ's sake... I don't think that's too much too ask from our hardware (although this is 10 years old or more).
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Anyhow... I'll probably sell this and put in a pre-order for Push. or maybe the APC  - does it work better straight outta the box?
> > > 
> > > (sorry for the rant - just frustrated because I can tell the build quality of this box is actually fantastic. just I'm too dumb to figure it out.. I wanna spend time playing my synths.. not wasting precious hours of my middle-aged life on this crap. heh-he, but gah!!)
> > > 
> > > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "mmruijgrok" <senang@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately I cannot help you but I'm curious about the solution as I am about to step over to Live and as you I was assuming this was going to be a breeze.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe though you can use a tool like MIDI Tools to read out the messages and check how they are mapped out?
> > > > 
> > > > --- In bc2000@yahoogroups.com, "patgoodfellow" <GOODFELLOWPAT@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm trying to set-up the BCR to work with Ableton. It's kind of bewildering. It's not responding in a well behaved way... and it's giving me a headache.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have selected the BCR template in Preferences > Mdid/Sync. (Input & Output + Remote are all activated).
> > > > > I know that with this preset Abletons Device Parameters are controlled by the top 8 push encoders,and the top key buttons on the BCR select the 1-8 function banks. The BCR is sending data because ableton does respond on some random parameters (although in no logical sense that I've figured out yet) but not responding according to the way Mappings are set-up with the Ablton template (I checked the 'Control Surface Reference' help file in Ableton)
> > > > > 
> > > > > For example, I go to the ableton Device 'Analog', select Bank 1 on the BCR and move the top encoders, but Analog doesn't respond... same if I select Bank 2 which should move the 'Analog's' filters... but it doesn't respond. (I do have the Analog device selected with the little blue hand) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Question: Do I need to Dump the Ableton script to the BCR for it to work correctly? I've done this already and the lights on the BCR spin around like you would expect, but then at the last moment I get an Er22 error message.. So I presume the dump failed?? I've tried 2 usb cables and 2 different usb ports on my computer - same thing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Any ideas?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Question 2: I do have BC Manager, but shouldn't the BCR be able to work 'straight outta the box' with Abelton's included script/template? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks for any words of wisdom you can throw my way. I thought this would be a lot simpler...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Pat
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>