Yahoo Groups archive

Cgs synth

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:16 UTC

Thread

Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-28 by rafe127

Hi everybody...

I build half of the gate to trigger converter just now in an attempt
to make a nice clean click sound. I am using one of these switches:

http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html

...and the switch is a momentary Normally Open SPST switch that passes
+9V from a regular 9V battery when I "depresss" it. The +9V is going
to the Gate input of the circuit here:

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html

It ALMOST works except that it seems to send a trigger only when I
release the button... Any obvious reason this could be happening?
The switch itself has some mysterious potted electronics in it which
may be influencing things... is something funny because I only built
half of it?

Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding quite right:

http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links

Any advice about shaping the trigger output a little more?

Thanks for any help,
Rafael

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-28 by Mark Rauch

Howdy,

Yes, a peizu relies onpressure to genreta voltage. When you pushthe
switch you cock thr pistol". When you release, the kintic energy of
dtriking the crystal emits a voge.
RRig
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everybody...
>
> I build half of the gate to trigger converter just now in an attempt
> to make a nice clean click sound. I am using one of these
switches:
>
> http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html
>
> ...and the switch is a momentary Normally Open SPST switch that
passes
> +9V from a regular 9V battery when I "depresss" it. The +9V is
going
> to the Gate input of the circuit here:
>
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
>
> It ALMOST works except that it seems to send a trigger only when I
> release the button... Any obvious reason this could be happening?
> The switch itself has some mysterious potted electronics in it which
> may be influencing things... is something funny because I only built
> half of it?
>
> Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding quite right:
>
> http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links
>
> Any advice about shaping the trigger output a little more?
>
> Thanks for any help,
> Rafael
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-29 by rafe127

Crumbs....

Is there no way to get a good clean timely click out of a piezo
switch? Will it always only deliver upon "release"?

If I tap it quickly, then it comes close to the behavior I want,
although it sometime "double clicks"
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rauch" <billbigrig@...> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> Yes, a peizu relies onpressure to genreta voltage. When you
pushthe
> switch you cock thr pistol". When you release, the kintic energy of
> dtriking the crystal emits a voge.
> RRig
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi everybody...
> >
> > I build half of the gate to trigger converter just now in an
attempt
> > to make a nice clean click sound. I am using one of these
> switches:
> >
> > http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html
> >
> > ...and the switch is a momentary Normally Open SPST switch that
> passes
> > +9V from a regular 9V battery when I "depresss" it. The +9V is
> going
> > to the Gate input of the circuit here:
> >
> > http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
> >
> > It ALMOST works except that it seems to send a trigger only when I
> > release the button... Any obvious reason this could be
happening?
> > The switch itself has some mysterious potted electronics in it
which
> > may be influencing things... is something funny because I only
built
> > half of it?
> >
> > Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding quite right:
> >
> > http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links
> >
> > Any advice about shaping the trigger output a little more?
> >
> > Thanks for any help,
> > Rafael
> >
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by rafe127

I have to admit I am a bit confused about this issue right now.
After BigRig's advice I tried this out with a few different switches
and the circuit outputs a trigger upon closing AND opening of the
switch, whenther its a toggle switch or a momentar button OR a piezo
switch. Any way to prevent this double triggering?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@...> wrote:
>
>
> Crumbs....
>
> Is there no way to get a good clean timely click out of a piezo
> switch? Will it always only deliver upon "release"?
>
> If I tap it quickly, then it comes close to the behavior I want,
> although it sometime "double clicks"
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rauch" <billbigrig@> wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > Yes, a peizu relies onpressure to genreta voltage. When you
> pushthe
> > switch you cock thr pistol". When you release, the kintic energy
of
> > dtriking the crystal emits a voge.
> > RRig
> >
> > --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi everybody...
> > >
> > > I build half of the gate to trigger converter just now in an
> attempt
> > > to make a nice clean click sound. I am using one of these
> > switches:
> > >
> > > http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html
> > >
> > > ...and the switch is a momentary Normally Open SPST switch that
> > passes
> > > +9V from a regular 9V battery when I "depresss" it. The +9V is
> > going
> > > to the Gate input of the circuit here:
> > >
> > > http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
> > >
> > > It ALMOST works except that it seems to send a trigger only
when I
> > > release the button... Any obvious reason this could be
> happening?
> > > The switch itself has some mysterious potted electronics in it
> which
> > > may be influencing things... is something funny because I only
> built
> > > half of it?
> > >
> > > Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding quite right:
> > >
> > > http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links
> > >
> > > Any advice about shaping the trigger output a little more?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help,
> > > Rafael
> > >
> >
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by rafe127

That's an interesting idea and I will definitely check it out,
although what I am using is not a regular piezo, but instead a piezo
switch. It has different properties and some built in circuitry
already.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, Pete <23isgood@...> wrote:
>
> You should get yourself, "The Electronic Drum Cookbook" by Thomas
Henry.
> Inside you will find a circuit for building a drum pad using a
piezo. Im
> sure this will help you to build what you need.
>
> pete
>
>
> --
> http://www.myspace.com/23isgood
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

What you are experiencing is called switch bounce. Try wiring a 10n (0.01)
from the input to ground.

Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I have to admit I am a bit confused about this issue right now.
>After BigRig's advice I tried this out with a few different switches
>and the circuit outputs a trigger upon closing AND opening of the
>switch, whenther its a toggle switch or a momentar button OR a piezo
>switch. Any way to prevent this double triggering?
>
>--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Crumbs....
>>
>> Is there no way to get a good clean timely click out of a piezo
>> switch? Will it always only deliver upon "release"?
>>
>> If I tap it quickly, then it comes close to the behavior I want,
>> although it sometime "double clicks"
>>
>> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rauch" <billbigrig@> wrote:
>> >
>> > Howdy,
>> >
>> > Yes, a peizu relies onpressure to genreta voltage. When you
>> pushthe
>> > switch you cock thr pistol". When you release, the kintic energy
>of
>> > dtriking the crystal emits a voge.
>> > RRig
>> >
>> > --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127" <rafe127@> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi everybody...
>> > >
>> > > I build half of the gate to trigger converter just now in an
>> attempt
>> > > to make a nice clean click sound. I am using one of these
>> > switches:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html
>> > >
>> > > ...and the switch is a momentary Normally Open SPST switch that
>> > passes
>> > > +9V from a regular 9V battery when I "depresss" it. The +9V is
>> > going
>> > > to the Gate input of the circuit here:
>> > >
>> > > http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
>> > >
>> > > It ALMOST works except that it seems to send a trigger only
>when I
>> > > release the button... Any obvious reason this could be
>> happening?
>> > > The switch itself has some mysterious potted electronics in it
>> which
>> > > may be influencing things... is something funny because I only
>> built
>> > > half of it?
>> > >
>> > > Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding quite right:
>> > >
>> > > http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links
>> > >
>> > > Any advice about shaping the trigger output a little more?
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for any help,
>> > > Rafael
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by Richard Brewster

See Electronotes #73, p. 11, for a reliable switch debounce circuit that
uses 1/6 of a 4010 CMOS chip. A 1K resistor goes from the input to
output, creating a positive feedback loop. (Should work with a 10K or
larger resistor, too.) Hook the center of a toggle switch to the
input. The switch selects +Vcc or ground (the 4010 power rails). The
result is a flip-flop that eliminates all bounce with no delays. More
reliable than using the capacitor, but it does require a chip. You can
make six debouncers with one chip and six resistors (plus a bypass cap
Show quoted textHide quoted text

on the chip for good measure).

Richard Brewster
http://www.pugix.com

sasami@... wrote:
> What you are experiencing is called switch bounce. Try wiring a 10n (0.01)
> from the input to ground.
>
> Ken
>
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by bill bigrig

Howdy,

A good debouncing and flip/flop setup can be easily
found in "The Cmos Cookbook. It seems you are going to
have to debounce and eliminate one of the pulses. All
of this is covered in the book. It also explains "half
monostables", which might suit your purpose nicely.
rig

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- sasami@... wrote:

> What you are experiencing is called switch bounce.
> Try wiring a 10n (0.01)
> from the input to ground.
>
> Ken
>
> >I have to admit I am a bit confused about this
> issue right now.
> >After BigRig's advice I tried this out with a few
> different switches
> >and the circuit outputs a trigger upon closing AND
> opening of the
> >switch, whenther its a toggle switch or a momentar
> button OR a piezo
> >switch. Any way to prevent this double triggering?
> >
> >--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127"
> <rafe127@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Crumbs....
> >>
> >> Is there no way to get a good clean timely click
> out of a piezo
> >> switch? Will it always only deliver upon
> "release"?
> >>
> >> If I tap it quickly, then it comes close to the
> behavior I want,
> >> although it sometime "double clicks"
> >>
> >> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rauch"
> <billbigrig@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Howdy,
> >> >
> >> > Yes, a peizu relies onpressure to genreta
> voltage. When you
> >> pushthe
> >> > switch you cock thr pistol". When you release,
> the kintic energy
> >of
> >> > dtriking the crystal emits a voge.
> >> > RRig
> >> >
> >> > --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127"
> <rafe127@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi everybody...
> >> > >
> >> > > I build half of the gate to trigger converter
> just now in an
> >> attempt
> >> > > to make a nice clean click sound. I am using
> one of these
> >> > switches:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> http://www.piezoswitch.com/about_switches.html
> >> > >
> >> > > ...and the switch is a momentary Normally
> Open SPST switch that
> >> > passes
> >> > > +9V from a regular 9V battery when I
> "depresss" it. The +9V is
> >> > going
> >> > > to the Gate input of the circuit here:
> >> > >
> >> > >
>
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs24_gatetotrigger.html
> >> > >
> >> > > It ALMOST works except that it seems to send
> a trigger only
> >when I
> >> > > release the button... Any obvious reason
> this could be
> >> happening?
> >> > > The switch itself has some mysterious potted
> electronics in it
> >> which
> >> > > may be influencing things... is something
> funny because I only
> >> built
> >> > > half of it?
> >> > >
> >> > > Also, the shape of the click isn't sounding
> quite right:
> >> > >
> >> > >
>
http://obsoleteconsole.blogspot.com/2007/08/clicks.html#links
> >> > >
> >> > > Any advice about shaping the trigger output a
> little more?
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for any help,
> >> > > Rafael
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >The CGS Modular Synth home page:
> http://www.cgs.synth.net/
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
_______________________________________________________________________
> Ken Stone sasami@...
> Modular Synth PCBs for sale
> <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
> Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies
> <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
>




____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-30 by rafe127

I guess it is about time I picked up the CMOS cookbook, I will order
it tomorrow.

Explain to me, if you will, the basic premise of this kind of
debouncing. Will it still work for my purposes if the open and close
of the switch are as much as one second apart? I'm just curious what
the principle is.

Thanks again,
Rafael
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, bill bigrig <billbigrig@...> wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> A good debouncing and flip/flop setup can be easily
> found in "The Cmos Cookbook. It seems you are going to
> have to debounce and eliminate one of the pulses. All
> of this is covered in the book. It also explains "half
> monostables", which might suit your purpose nicely.
> rig
>
>
> --- sasami@... wrote:
>
> > What you are experiencing is called switch bounce.
> > Try wiring a 10n (0.01)
> > from the input to ground.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > >I have to admit I am a bit confused about this
> > issue right now.
> > >After BigRig's advice I tried this out with a few
> > different switches
> > >and the circuit outputs a trigger upon closing AND
> > opening of the
> > >switch, whenther its a toggle switch or a momentar
> > button OR a piezo
> > >switch. Any way to prevent this double triggering?
> > >
> > >--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "rafe127"
> > <rafe127@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Crumbs....
> > >>
> > >> Is there no way to get a good clean timely click
> > out of a piezo
> > >> switch? Will it always only deliver upon
> > "release"?
> > >>
> > >> If I tap it quickly, then it comes close to the
> > behavior I want,
> > >> although it sometime "double clicks"
> > >>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-31 by Richard Brewster

R1
Switch
---/\/\/\/\/----
+V | |
| |\ 4001 |
<-----o------| /o----------o OUT
|/
Gnd

The switch is between +V and ground. The 4001 is a non-inverting
buffer, powered by +V. Let the switch be centered. On power up OUT may
be at ground or +V. Whichever it is, since it feeds back to the input
through R1, it will stay put. If it's at ground, then a momentary flick
of the switch to +V will cause the output to follow. The switch can
remain at +V, bounce off the contact, or move back to center (no
connection). OUT remains at +V. Nothing changes until the switch is
moved back to GND. At that instant OUT becomes zero volts and will
remain so, even if the switch is lifted (bounces). It is a simple
flip-flop.

Richard Brewster


rafe127 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I guess it is about time I picked up the CMOS cookbook, I will order
> it tomorrow.
>
> Explain to me, if you will, the basic premise of this kind of
> debouncing. Will it still work for my purposes if the open and close
> of the switch are as much as one second apart? I'm just curious what
> the principle is.
>
> Thanks again,
> Rafael
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, bill bigrig <billbigrig@...> wrote:
>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> A good debouncing and flip/flop setup can be easily
>> found in "The Cmos Cookbook. It seems you are going to
>> have to debounce and eliminate one of the pulses. All
>> of this is covered in the book. It also explains "half
>> monostables", which might suit your purpose nicely.
>> rig
>>
>>
>> --- sasami@... wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What you are experiencing is called switch bounce.
>>> Try wiring a 10n (0.01)
>>> from the input to ground.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-31 by Richard Brewster

Oops. Typo. That is a CD4010 non-inverting CMOS buffer. Not 4001.

-Richard

Richard Brewster wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> R1
> Switch
> ---/\/\/\/\/----
> +V | |
> | |\ 4001 |
> <-----o------| /o----------o OUT
> |/
> Gnd
>
> The switch is between +V and ground. The 4001 is a non-inverting
> buffer, powered by +V. Let the switch be centered. On power up OUT may
> be at ground or +V. Whichever it is, since it feeds back to the input
> through R1, it will stay put. If it's at ground, then a momentary flick
> of the switch to +V will cause the output to follow. The switch can
> remain at +V, bounce off the contact, or move back to center (no
> connection). OUT remains at +V. Nothing changes until the switch is
> moved back to GND. At that instant OUT becomes zero volts and will
> remain so, even if the switch is lifted (bounces). It is a simple
> flip-flop.
>
> Richard Brewster
>
>
> rafe127 wrote:
>
>> I guess it is about time I picked up the CMOS cookbook, I will order
>> it tomorrow.
>>
>> Explain to me, if you will, the basic premise of this kind of
>> debouncing. Will it still work for my purposes if the open and close
>> of the switch are as much as one second apart? I'm just curious what
>> the principle is.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Rafael
>>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-08-31 by Mark Rauch

Howdy,

The debounce process involves a time delay in which multiple on/off
signals are ignored. this happens very fast. After the delay, the
circuit is left at the present switch position. It is possible to set
up a debounce of one second or more with a big enough capacitor and
resistor. We're talking 5 to 10 megohms and 3 to 5 microfarads. The
Cmos cookbook has charts to find the values. Right now, on a project
I'm doing , I have a 1 meg resistor with a 1 microfarad capacitor.
that gives me 0.8 seconds. I also have to run a 2 meg resistor
between the switch and capacitor to positive to make the signal stop.
Otherwise it will stay on as long as the switch is held down. In my
project, several switches may stay on at the same time, so I am
forced to make it a pulse to give the 4017 separate signals even
though 2 or 3 switches may be in the on position. Please note that I
am using ground or "0" as my switching signal. If using positive
or "1" then the resistors would go to ground. In your situation, 10
microfarads and 300 Kohms would give you 2 to 3 seconds. You need to
figure out what your time is going to be and adjust components from
there.

A more elegant approach would be to use a short debouncer into a
flip-flop. Then, when you push the button you will get either a
signal or no signal, depending on how you wire it. Upon release you
would get the opposite. Thus you could set up your flip-flop to
output on the press and "flop' to no signal for the release or vice-
versa, depending on the response you desire. Hope this helps and, GET
THAT BOOK!!!!
Rig
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, Richard Brewster <pugix@...> wrote:
>
> Oops. Typo. That is a CD4010 non-inverting CMOS buffer. Not 4001.
>
> -Richard
>
> Richard Brewster wrote:
> > R1
> > Switch
> > ---/\/\/\/\/----
> > +V | |
> > | |\ 4001 |
> > <-----o------| /o----------o OUT
> > |/
> > Gnd
> >
> > The switch is between +V and ground. The 4001 is a non-inverting
> > buffer, powered by +V. Let the switch be centered. On power up
OUT may
> > be at ground or +V. Whichever it is, since it feeds back to the
input
> > through R1, it will stay put. If it's at ground, then a
momentary flick
> > of the switch to +V will cause the output to follow. The switch
can
> > remain at +V, bounce off the contact, or move back to center (no
> > connection). OUT remains at +V. Nothing changes until the
switch is
> > moved back to GND. At that instant OUT becomes zero volts and
will
> > remain so, even if the switch is lifted (bounces). It is a
simple
> > flip-flop.
> >
> > Richard Brewster
> >
> >
> > rafe127 wrote:
> >
> >> I guess it is about time I picked up the CMOS cookbook, I will
order
> >> it tomorrow.
> >>
> >> Explain to me, if you will, the basic premise of this kind of
> >> debouncing. Will it still work for my purposes if the open and
close
> >> of the switch are as much as one second apart? I'm just curious
what
> >> the principle is.
> >>
> >> Thanks again,
> >> Rafael
> >>
>

Re: Gate-to-Trigger converter questions

2007-09-02 by Rafael Cohen

I ordered the book yesterday!
Thanks... : )
This has been super helpful and informative, everybody, thanks.....
I will put up pics on my blog when the project is done... (absurd as it is)

Rafael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.