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Bi n tic noise on power bus

Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by adematteo

Hi guys,
I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.

Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Tony

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by cg_synth

Run it's power wires back to the PSU itself, not to the local distribution point. It is a common VCO problem associated with the resistance of the wires themselves.
The SMD pads would be for 100n, as per what you did. They were probably added as an optional afterthought. It was a long time ago!
Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
> I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
> I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.
>
> Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks, Tony
>

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by Romeo Fahl

Also, make sure that your power supply can source enough current. If you
start disconnecting modules from it, does the Bi-N-Tic noise decrease in
the still connected modules?

RF
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:52 PM, adematteo <adematteo@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi guys,
> I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding
> noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i
> presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and
> although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the
> back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
> I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.
>
> Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks, Tony
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by adematteo

Thanks Ken,I'll give that a shot.
Yeah,the cap on the smd didn't seem to make any difference concerning the noise.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "cg_synth" <sasami@...> wrote:
>
> Run it's power wires back to the PSU itself, not to the local distribution point. It is a common VCO problem associated with the resistance of the wires themselves.
> The SMD pads would be for 100n, as per what you did. They were probably added as an optional afterthought. It was a long time ago!
> Ken
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> > I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
> > I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.
> >
> > Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks, Tony
> >
>

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by adematteo

The power supply should be good.1 amp supply with only a few modules so far.I did try disconnecting everything from the supply with only the synthacon filter still connected and yes was still getting what sounded like the same amount of sound coming through the out of the steiner.

Also, i don't know if this should be happening but with the level pot all the way down and the multi-position switch set to off i can still hear the osc. on the output of the bi n tic?
Thanks for your suggestions,
Tony
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, Romeo Fahl <romeo.fahl@...> wrote:
>
> Also, make sure that your power supply can source enough current. If you
> start disconnecting modules from it, does the Bi-N-Tic noise decrease in
> the still connected modules?
>
> RF
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 2:52 PM, adematteo <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi guys,
> > I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding
> > noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i
> > presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and
> > although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the
> > back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
> > I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.
> >
> > Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
> > Thanks, Tony
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by adematteo

Ok, no luck with that?
Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Ken,I'll give that a shot.
> Yeah,the cap on the smd didn't seem to make any difference concerning the noise.
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "cg_synth" <sasami@> wrote:
> >
> > Run it's power wires back to the PSU itself, not to the local distribution point. It is a common VCO problem associated with the resistance of the wires themselves.
> > The SMD pads would be for 100n, as per what you did. They were probably added as an optional afterthought. It was a long time ago!
> > Ken
> >
> > --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi guys,
> > > I recently built the bi n tic and am having some issues with it regarding noise from it's osc. coming through other modules from the bus i presume.I've installed all the ferite's and caps that Ken suggests and although i couldn't find any documentation regarding the smd pads on the back i soldered in 1 100n cap on those pads.
> > > I'm running the module on a 12v supply also.
> > >
> > > Any help troubleshooting this would be greatly appreciated.
> > > Thanks, Tony
> > >
> >
>

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-16 by cg_synth

Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super psycho.
Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect solder joints on the links on the power rails.
Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, no luck with that?
> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-17 by Stephen Richards

I constantly have the same noise problem with the Best of CGS Voice panel (Panel #3).

Do you think this fix would apply here ?


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: cg_synth <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:02 AM
Subject: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus



Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super psycho.
Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect solder joints on the links on the power rails.
Ken

--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, no luck with that?
> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus

2012-03-17 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

>I constantly have the same noise problem with the Best of CGS Voice panel
(Panel #3).
>
>Do you think this fix would apply here ?

Yes. It should fix the problem.


>
>
>________________________________
> From: cg_synth <sasami@...>
>To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:02 AM
>Subject: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
>
>
>Â
>Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of
the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super
psycho.
>Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it
doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect
solder joints on the links on the power rails.
>Ken
>
>--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, no luck with that?
>> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-17 by Stephen Richards

Thanks Ken.

A few questions on how to implement these changes.

How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?
Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board ?
Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?

What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF , yes) ?
Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus




>I constantly have the same noise problem with the Best of CGS Voice panel
(Panel #3).
>
>Do you think this fix would apply here ?

Yes. It should fix the problem.

>
>
>________________________________
> From: cg_synth <sasami@...>
>To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:02 AM
>Subject: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
>
>
>Â
>Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of
the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super
psycho.
>Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it
doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect
solder joints on the links on the power rails.
>Ken
>
>--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>>
>> Ok, no luck with that?
>> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-17 by adematteo

Hey Stephen,Ken suggested to look at the diagram on his page for the super psycho modulation source.You'll find all the values and schematic on that page.

I haven't tried it yet because i'll have to get some of the values he suggests but hopefully i can report back soon.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Richards <okayjustalittle@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Ken.
>
> A few questions on how to implement these changes.
>
> How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?Â
> Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board ?Â
> Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?
>
> What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF , yes) ?Â
> Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
> To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
>
>
> Â
>
> >I constantly have the same noise problem with the Best of CGS Voice panel
> (Panel #3).
> >
> >Do you think this fix would apply here ?
>
> Yes. It should fix the problem.
>
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: cg_synth <sasami@...>
> >To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
> >Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:02 AM
> >Subject: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
> >
> >
> >ÂÂ
> >Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of
> the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super
> psycho.
> >Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it
> doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect
> solder joints on the links on the power rails.
> >Ken
> >
> >--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Ok, no luck with that?
> >> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
> Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
> Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

>How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?Â
>Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board
Replace the beads on the individual circuit boards with resistors.

>Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?

Just pos and neg.

>What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF ,

100uF.

>Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?

The VCO is the best place to start. Only do the others if it is still a problem.

Ken
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by Stephen Richards

Ace Ken , thanks


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re : noise on power bus



>How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?Â
>Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board
Replace the beads on the individual circuit boards with resistors.

>Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?

Just pos and neg.

>What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF ,

100uF.

>Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?

The VCO is the best place to start. Only do the others if it is still a problem.

Ken
__________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by Stephen Richards

Hi All ,

I installed the 100uF 25V electros in place of the 10uF on one of my CGS48 Oscillators in the Best of CGS Panel #3.

Removed the Beads and put in 10 Ohm resistors.

(Did not do the 100n across pin 1 and 8 of LM311 yet).

Plugged it in ; with the second CGS48 Oscillator unpowered , it worked but cooked the 10 Ohm resistor on the Positive rail.

Any ideas what has happened ?


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re : noise on power bus



>How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?Â
>Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board
Replace the beads on the individual circuit boards with resistors.

>Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?

Just pos and neg.

>What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF ,

100uF.

>Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?

The VCO is the best place to start. Only do the others if it is still a problem.

Ken
__________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by sasami@hotkey.net.au

It's drawing too much current for the 10R resistor.
Try putting in two 10R in parallel. That will halve the resistance and
double the wattage.
I don't have a current figure for what it draws under usual circumstances,
so I don't know if it is drawing excessive current or not.
Ken
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi All ,
>
>I installed the 100uF 25V electros in place of the 10uF on one of my CGS48
Oscillators in the Best of CGS Panel #3.
>
>Removed the Beads and put in 10 Ohm resistors.
>
>(Did not do the 100n across pin 1 and 8 of LM311 yet).
>
>Plugged it in ; with the second CGS48 Oscillator unpowered , it worked but
cooked the 10 Ohm resistor on the Positive rail.
>
>Any ideas what has happened ?
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
>To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re : noise on power bus
>
>
>Â
>>How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?ÂÂ
>>Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board
>Replace the beads on the individual circuit boards with resistors.
>
>>Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?
>
>Just pos and neg.
>
>>What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use
10uF ,
>
>100uF.
>
>>Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?
>
>The VCO is the best place to start. Only do the others if it is still a
problem.
>
>Ken
>__________________________________________________________
>Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
>Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
>Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by Stephen Richards

Thanks Ken

Will let you know how it goes.


________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re : noise on power bus



It's drawing too much current for the 10R resistor.
Try putting in two 10R in parallel. That will halve the resistance and
double the wattage.
I don't have a current figure for what it draws under usual circumstances,
so I don't know if it is drawing excessive current or not.
Ken

>Hi All ,
>
>I installed the 100uF 25V electros in place of the 10uF on one of my CGS48
Oscillators in the Best of CGS Panel #3.
>
>Removed the Beads and put in 10 Ohm resistors.
>
>(Did not do the 100n across pin 1 and 8 of LM311 yet).
>
>Plugged it in ; with the second CGS48 Oscillator unpowered , it worked but
cooked the 10 Ohm resistor on the Positive rail.
>
>Any ideas what has happened ?
>
>
>________________________________
> From: "sasami@..." <sasami@...>
>To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re : noise on power bus
>
>
>Â
>>How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?ÂÂ
>>Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board
>Replace the beads on the individual circuit boards with resistors.
>
>>Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?
>
>Just pos and neg.
>
>>What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use
10uF ,
>
>100uF.
>
>>Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?
>
>The VCO is the best place to start. Only do the others if it is still a
problem.
>
>Ken
>__________________________________________________________
>Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
>Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
>Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
Ken Stone sasami@... otherunicorn@...
Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Re : noise on power bus

2012-03-18 by adematteo

Ok, so here's what i found.I tried the scheme that was suggested for the psycho lfo and had no luck,i don't even think certain parts of the module were getting enough power because it wasn't working at all after making those changes(i'm running this on 12v supply).I tried some different values and still nothing so i basically decided i'd deal with a little noise on the rail instead of a module that doesn't work, but i left the 120uf electro's in place just to see and sure enough the bleed is gone on the rails.

Thanks so much for everyone's help on this!
-Tony
Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Stephen,Ken suggested to look at the diagram on his page for the super psycho modulation source.You'll find all the values and schematic on that page.
>
> I haven't tried it yet because i'll have to get some of the values he suggests but hopefully i can report back soon.
>
> --- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Richards <okayjustalittle@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Ken.
> >
> > A few questions on how to implement these changes.
> >
> > How would i install the 10ohm resistors ?Â
> > Should they be somewhere between the PS and the input to the CGS Distro board ?Â
> > Just Pos and Neg ; or Ground too?
> >
> > What higher value is suggested for the electros (your boards always use 10uF , yes) ?Â
> > Should only the VCO's electros be changed or every module ?
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: "sasami@" <sasami@>
> > To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 1:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > >I constantly have the same noise problem with the Best of CGS Voice panel
> > (Panel #3).
> > >
> > >Do you think this fix would apply here ?
> >
> > Yes. It should fix the problem.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: cg_synth <sasami@>
> > >To: cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:02 AM
> > >Subject: [cgs_synth] Re: Bi n tic noise on power bus
> > >
> > >
> > >ÂÂ
> > >Try putting 10 ohm resistors in the power rails, and increase the value of
> > the on board electros. See what I did for the power input on the CGS21 super
> > psycho.
> > >Also try putting 100n directly across pins 8 and 1 of the 311, if it
> > doesn't already something there. Also check that you don't have any suspect
> > solder joints on the links on the power rails.
> > >Ken
> > >
> > >--- In cgs_synth@yahoogroups.com, "adematteo" <adematteo@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ok, no luck with that?
> > >> Thanks for any advice i do appreciate it!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >The CGS Modular Synth home page: http://www.cgs.synth.net/
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Ken Stone sasami@ otherunicorn@
> > Modular Synth PCBs for sale <http://www.cgs.synth.net/>
> > Australian Miniature Horses & Ponies <http://www.blaze.net.au/~sasami/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.