Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Hi All,

Just aquired PrintfixPRO with the intent of profiling some papers 
that I have been none too happy colorwise with. Details as follows:

225 patch target
2200, OEM Inks
Epson Premium Luster with PK Ink
Epson Velvet Fine Art with MK Ink

Monitor calibrated with Spider 2

I compared the results (with no profile tweaks, to the stock Epson 
profiles, and in the case of the EPL, with a custom profile from Dry 
Creek.

The PrintfixPRO profiles were as good or better than all the others, 
however, all of the profiles (PrintFixPRO, Epson snd Dry Creek) 
resulted in prints with a slight yellow/green tint - this was the 
reason for purchasing PFPRo in the first place.

Question: Seems at first that it is a monitor calibration issue, 
however, if I compare the monitor image to the actual scene (as I 
remember), it seems fairly close. Seems like all the profiles have a 
green/yellow shift.

In the PF Pro profiles I corrected using the -12 Green, -8 Yellow and 
brightness +2. Resultant prints are to my eye now excellent. 

Anyone else had this issue with the 2200 with OEM inks? Should I 
consider borrowing a different screen calibration device?

Any advice appreciated!

Regards

Hello David,

Thank you for your quick reply, appreciated! After reviewing the 
original vs 'tweaked' prints, final corrections are somewhat less 
than noted below. So -8 Gr, -6Y, +1 Brightness.

The viewing light was a daylight balanced desktop fluorescent (not at 
home to check the exact color balance) - anyway, not incandescent.

Hmmm... like your suggestion of getting a young female to work with 
in checking print colors but my 4 year old would only like strong 
pink and purple hues, and my wife might object to anyone else!

Serously  though a good thought, I will check into it.

Profiled another couple of papers and using the same 'tweaks' both 
profiled excellently, so I am not concerned even if I have to use 
about the same corrections each time.

Regards

Martin

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 7/16/07 9:28:26 AM, martinc@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > Just aquired PrintfixPRO with the intent of profiling some papers
> > that I have been none too happy colorwise with. Details as 
follows:
> > 
> > 225 patch target
> > 2200, OEM Inks
> > Epson Premium Luster with PK Ink
> > Epson Velvet Fine Art with MK Ink
> > 
> That all sounds reasonable, but you don't note your viewing 
light... my bet 
> is incandescent, given your result.
> > 
> > Monitor calibrated with Spider 2
> > 
> > I compared the results (with no profile tweaks, to the stock Epson
> > profiles, and in the case of the EPL, with a custom profile from 
Dry
> > Creek.
> > 
> > The PrintfixPRO profiles were as good or better than all the 
others,
> > 
> Thats good to hear... <G>
> 
> > however, all of the profiles (PrintFixPRO, Epson snd Dry Creek)
> > resulted in prints with a slight yellow/green tint - this was the
> > reason for purchasing PFPRo in the first place.
> > 
> Consistancy is a virtue. If they all have a similar tint, its 
probably 
> correct... for 5000k lighting.
> > 
> > Question: Seems at first that it is a monitor calibration issue,
> > however, if I compare the monitor image to the actual scene (as I
> > remember), it seems fairly close. Seems like all the profiles 
have a
> > green/yellow shift.
> > 
> > In the PF Pro profiles I corrected using the -12 Green, -8 Yellow 
and
> > brightness +2. Resultant prints are to my eye now excellent.
> > 
> The plus two is a different issue, and about the right correction 
for gloss 
> media. The yellow and green adjustments seem a bit large, but thats 
a personal 
> call. Any chance you are over 50? Cataracts often effect print 
viewing color 
> before they affect screen color, unless you are using proprely 
bright, hight 
> CRI D50 proofing lights.
> 
> Well, thats what controls are for... but varify with young eyes 
(ideally 
> female, to rule out color blindness at the same time) to be sure 
you aren't moving 
> off into a world of printing bluer and bluer prints, as I've seen 
some older 
> photographers do.
> > 
> > Anyone else had this issue with the 2200 with OEM inks?
> > 
> Other than it not being ideal for B&W, no. Works fine.
> 
> >  Should I
> > consider borrowing a different screen calibration device?
> > 
> Different brands of monitor calibrators tend to produce similar 
results, as 

> you saw with output profiles as well...
> > 
> > Any advice appreciated!
> > 
> Edit as you choose, and enjoy your match...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  Get a sneak peak of 
> the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

"...Any chance you are over 50? Cataracts often effect print viewing 
color before they affect screen color, unless you are using proprely 
bright, hight CRI D50 proofing lights..."

I had a cataract in my right eye and a few years ago had it removed 
and a new (plastic) lens inserted.  On returning to the doctor for a 
check up, I commented on the color cast difference between my right 
and left eye, with the left having a distinct yellow cast.  

His comment was that I should "believe" the right eye.  He went on to 
say that as we age the lenses turn yellow-ish with age.  I now to all 
my final color judgements with my right eye <G>.

John



--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 7/16/07 9:28:26 AM, martinc@... writes:
> 
> 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > Just aquired PrintfixPRO with the intent of profiling some papers
> > that I have been none too happy colorwise with. Details as 
follows:
> > 
> > 225 patch target
> > 2200, OEM Inks
> > Epson Premium Luster with PK Ink
> > Epson Velvet Fine Art with MK Ink
> > 
> That all sounds reasonable, but you don't note your viewing 
light... my bet 
> is incandescent, given your result.
> > 
> > Monitor calibrated with Spider 2
> > 
> > I compared the results (with no profile tweaks, to the stock Epson
> > profiles, and in the case of the EPL, with a custom profile from 
Dry
> > Creek.
> > 
> > The PrintfixPRO profiles were as good or better than all the 
others,
> > 
> Thats good to hear... <G>
> 
> > however, all of the profiles (PrintFixPRO, Epson snd Dry Creek)
> > resulted in prints with a slight yellow/green tint - this was the
> > reason for purchasing PFPRo in the first place.
> > 
> Consistancy is a virtue. If they all have a similar tint, its 
probably 
> correct... for 5000k lighting.
> > 
> > Question: Seems at first that it is a monitor calibration issue,
> > however, if I compare the monitor image to the actual scene (as I
> > remember), it seems fairly close. Seems like all the profiles 
have a
> > green/yellow shift.
> > 
> > In the PF Pro profiles I corrected using the -12 Green, -8 Yellow 
and
> > brightness +2. Resultant prints are to my eye now excellent.
> > 
> The plus two is a different issue, and about the right correction 
for gloss 
> media. The yellow and green adjustments seem a bit large, but thats 
a personal 
> call. Any chance you are over 50? Cataracts often effect print 
viewing color 
> before they affect screen color, unless you are using proprely 
bright, hight 
> CRI D50 proofing lights.
> 
> Well, thats what controls are for... but varify with young eyes 
(ideally 
> female, to rule out color blindness at the same time) to be sure 
you aren't moving 
> off into a world of printing bluer and bluer prints, as I've seen 
some older 
> photographers do.
> > 
> > Anyone else had this issue with the 2200 with OEM inks?
> > 
> Other than it not being ideal for B&W, no. Works fine.
> 
> >  Should I
> > consider borrowing a different screen calibration device?
> > 
> Different brands of monitor calibrators tend to produce similar 
results, as 

> you saw with output profiles as well...
> > 
> > Any advice appreciated!
> > 
> Edit as you choose, and enjoy your match...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> **************************************
>  Get a sneak peak of 
> the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

This is ridiculous! Obviously its not the viewing condition or old 
eyes, female eyes....Give Martin more credit than that. The problem 
is not isolated to pfp2 & profiles, Regardless of what profile I use. 
I'm at -10to -15Y to correct skin tone. You're not alone Martin & 
it's not your eyes. The next thing someone will suggest is that if 
you have blue eyes you'll see a yellow cast! Lets get to a real 
solution to the problem.

This problem seemed to occur when I switched to XP from 2000pro. 
Could there be a driver conflict? I've removed & replaced DRIVERS 
multiple times without any luck. I'm concidering going back to 
win2000pro. before the cast started. You seem to have the same 
general problem as I. Keep looking for real solutions not distracting 
suggestions. 

In PFP2 the Epson 2100_2200 profile is at over +40B to correct Yellow 
cast & still needs +10B more. There must be a conflict in XP or 
driver?

Ken

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Carrington" 
<martinc@...> wrote:
>
> Hello David,
> 
> Thank you for your quick reply, appreciated! After reviewing the 
> original vs 'tweaked' prints, final corrections are somewhat less 
> than noted below. So -8 Gr, -6Y, +1 Brightness.
> 
> The viewing light was a daylight balanced desktop fluorescent (not 
at 
> home to check the exact color balance) - anyway, not incandescent.
> 
> Hmmm... like your suggestion of getting a young female to work with 
> in checking print colors but my 4 year old would only like strong 
> pink and purple hues, and my wife might object to anyone else!
> 
> Serously  though a good thought, I will check into it.
> 
> Profiled another couple of papers and using the same 'tweaks' both 
> profiled excellently, so I am not concerned even if I have to use 
> about the same corrections each time.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@ wrote:
> >
> > 
> > In a message dated 7/16/07 9:28:26 AM, martinc@ writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi All,
> > > 
> > > Just aquired PrintfixPRO with the intent of profiling some 
papers
> > > that I have been none too happy colorwise with. Details as 
> follows:
> > > 
> > > 225 patch target
> > > 2200, OEM Inks
> > > Epson Premium Luster with PK Ink
> > > Epson Velvet Fine Art with MK Ink
> > > 
> > That all sounds reasonable, but you don't note your viewing 
> light... my bet 
> > is incandescent, given your result.
> > > 
> > > Monitor calibrated with Spider 2
> > > 
> > > I compared the results (with no profile tweaks, to the stock 
Epson
> > > profiles, and in the case of the EPL, with a custom profile 
from 
> Dry
> > > Creek.
> > > 
> > > The PrintfixPRO profiles were as good or better than all the 
> others,
> > > 
> > Thats good to hear... <G>
> > 
> > > however, all of the profiles (PrintFixPRO, Epson snd Dry Creek)
> > > resulted in prints with a slight yellow/green tint - this was 
the
> > > reason for purchasing PFPRo in the first place.
> > > 
> > Consistancy is a virtue. If they all have a similar tint, its 
> probably 
> > correct... for 5000k lighting.
> > > 
> > > Question: Seems at first that it is a monitor calibration issue,
> > > however, if I compare the monitor image to the actual scene (as 
I
> > > remember), it seems fairly close. Seems like all the profiles 
> have a
> > > green/yellow shift.
> > > 
> > > In the PF Pro profiles I corrected using the -12 Green, -8 
Yellow 
> and
> > > brightness +2. Resultant prints are to my eye now excellent.
> > > 
> > The plus two is a different issue, and about the right correction 
> for gloss 
> > media. The yellow and green adjustments seem a bit large, but 
thats 

> a personal 
> > call. Any chance you are over 50? Cataracts often effect print 
> viewing color 
> > before they affect screen color, unless you are using proprely 
> bright, hight 
> > CRI D50 proofing lights.
> > 
> > Well, thats what controls are for... but varify with young eyes 
> (ideally 
> > female, to rule out color blindness at the same time) to be sure 
> you aren't moving 
> > off into a world of printing bluer and bluer prints, as I've seen 
> some older 
> > photographers do.
> > > 
> > > Anyone else had this issue with the 2200 with OEM inks?
> > > 
> > Other than it not being ideal for B&W, no. Works fine.
> > 
> > >  Should I
> > > consider borrowing a different screen calibration device?
> > > 
> > Different brands of monitor calibrators tend to produce similar 
> results, as 
> > you saw with output profiles as well...
> > > 
> > > Any advice appreciated!
> > > 
> > Edit as you choose, and enjoy your match...
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Product Technology Manager
> > ColorVision Business Unit
> > Datacolor Inc.
> > CDTobie@
> > www.colorvision.com
> > 
> > 
> > **************************************
> >  Get a sneak peak of 
> > the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> >
>

David et al.,

> These may indeed not be the causes, but they are not ridiculous items the
> check: not a week goes by that one or the other of them is the solution to
> someone's color matching issues...

I've been through this - had two lenses replaced with 6 months in between 
which allowed plenty of time for experiments. The color perception with my 
natural lens looked like the artificial one with a .15CC yellow filter in 
front of it. With my old natural lenses I used to prefer blue-tinted 
sunglasses; now I prefer yellow-tinted sunglasses.

Lenses start going yellow very early in life; anyone over about 40 will 
notice the difference, and by the time people start getting cataracts which 
also blur their vision, the yellowing is quite pronounced. When I came out 
of the operating theatre, I was surprised to see that the nurses uniforms 
were light blue according to my new lens. When I went into the op theatre, 
they were gray! - and still were with the remaining old lens.

Some of the artificial lens manufacturers are now making yellow lenses. It 
seems that the yellowing with age may have some protective effect on the 
retina.

But as you say, it has a big effect on color vision. Most people just don't 
realise it.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CDTobie@...>

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 7/17/07 10:36:54 AM, ft@... writes:
> 
> 
> > This is ridiculous! Obviously its not the viewing condition or old
> > eyes, female eyes....Give Martin more credit than that.
> > 
> 
> These may indeed not be the causes, but they are not rediculous items the 
> check: not a week goes by that one or the other of them is the solution to 
> someone's color matching issues...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> David,

I had this same problem months ago between PFP and my 2200 using a Mac and various 
monitors and calibrators I was testing. Every time the profiles required fighting the yellow/
green shift no matter which monitor I was compairing the prints to. The calibrated 
monitors were fairly consistant in how they showed color, and the color looked "right" on 
the monitors, but the prints using profiles from PFP were seriously yellow/green viewing 
them in natural day light, with a 5500K light, or with a 6500K light.

If this could be an issue of aging eyes, then how do you explain the monitors looking right 
and the prints looking yellow/green? Shouldn't they both be off together if our ambient 
light and viewing lights are right?

Will

> **************************************
>  Get a sneak peek of 
> the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

Will,

Try printing with a generic profile, such as Epson's on Epson paper, 
and see if the yellow/green problem is still there.  If so, it may be 
your eyes, viewing light, or difference in tranmission color vs 
reflective color.  I have worked on this with two printers (2200 and 
3800) and have seen colorvision test prints from other large format 
printers (Epson's).  My conclusion is that PFP has a mild yellow 
emphasis, but knowing this I have no trouble adding a bit of cyan and 
a bit of blue (3 to 4 units on the sliders and setting the reference 
white to 0 if the reading is a b negative number (blue).  Quite happy 
with the set up.  Only problem I have is getting the Dmax to match 
the canned profiles Dmax on the papers I use. (yes David, I use 
Saturation as my intent without BP compensation checked ;-)  

Paul

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "willruggles" <2rcp@...> 
wrote:
> 
> I had this same problem months ago between PFP and my 2200 using a 
Mac and various 
> monitors and calibrators I was testing. Every time the profiles 
required fighting the yellow/
> green shift no matter which monitor I was compairing the prints to. 
The calibrated 
> monitors were fairly consistant in how they showed color, and the 
color looked "right" on 
> the monitors, but the prints using profiles from PFP were seriously 
yellow/green viewing 
> them in natural day light, with a 5500K light, or with a 6500K 
light.
> 
> If this could be an issue of aging eyes, then how do you explain 
the monitors looking right 
> and the prints looking yellow/green? Shouldn't they both be off 
together if our ambient 

> light and viewing lights are right?
> 
> Will
> > **************************************
> >  Get a sneak peek of 
> > the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> >
>