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first profile

first profile

2006-03-10 by randy

Hello All,  My Suite arrived safely today and I just made my first 
profile from the HQ target.  I soft proofed in PS and it wasn't too bad 
in a lot of ways, but still problems with browns.

The whole reason I bought printfix pro is that I was having trouble with 
posterization (paint by numbers look) in areas of brown hair. The 
atkinson profiles that came with my 7600 and 4000 worked great except 
for the browns. I print lots of big prints of people and brown dog turd 
streaks in hair is unacceptable.  In the past I copy and pasted hair 
from other areas in the problem areas. This year I dont have the time to 
do this. 

How can I optimize these profiles for the browns?

Thanks

Randy

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by randy

OK, I noticed something on my test print with the babys.  Although I 
have a perfect nozzle check and no banding, (checked with a lupe) the 
right paper selected (epson luster) and the driver set to no color 
adjustment, The gradients do not drop off evenly I can see problems in 
the browns all over that place.

 It was my understanding that all targets be printed with no color 
adjustment at the printer settings that you will be printing at with the 
created profile.

SO....Why would I want to set this printer at anything else other than 
what epson wanted it set at?

Randy

randy wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hello All,  My Suite arrived safely today and I just made my first 
>profile from the HQ target.  I soft proofed in PS and it wasn't too bad 
>in a lot of ways, but still problems with browns.
>
>The whole reason I bought printfix pro is that I was having trouble with 
>posterization (paint by numbers look) in areas of brown hair. The 
>atkinson profiles that came with my 7600 and 4000 worked great except 
>for the browns. I print lots of big prints of people and brown dog turd 
>streaks in hair is unacceptable.  In the past I copy and pasted hair 
>from other areas in the problem areas. This year I dont have the time to 
>do this. 
>
>How can I optimize these profiles for the browns?
>
>Thanks
>
>Randy
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by randy

What else is there to change and still leave it on no color adjustment? 
Paper is all there is. 

randy wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>OK, I noticed something on my test print with the babys.  Although I 
>have a perfect nozzle check and no banding, (checked with a lupe) the 
>right paper selected (epson luster) and the driver set to no color 
>adjustment, The gradients do not drop off evenly I can see problems in 
>the browns all over that place.
>
> It was my understanding that all targets be printed with no color 
>adjustment at the printer settings that you will be printing at with the 
>created profile.
>
>SO....Why would I want to set this printer at anything else other than 
>what epson wanted it set at?
>
>Randy
>
>randy wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hello All,  My Suite arrived safely today and I just made my first 
>>profile from the HQ target.  I soft proofed in PS and it wasn't too bad 
>>in a lot of ways, but still problems with browns.
>>
>>The whole reason I bought printfix pro is that I was having trouble with 
>>posterization (paint by numbers look) in areas of brown hair. The 
>>atkinson profiles that came with my 7600 and 4000 worked great except 
>>for the browns. I print lots of big prints of people and brown dog turd 
>>streaks in hair is unacceptable.  In the past I copy and pasted hair 
>>    
>>
>>from other areas in the problem areas. This year I dont have the time to 
>  
>
>>do this. 
>>
>>How can I optimize these profiles for the browns?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by David Miller

>OK, I noticed something on my test print with the babys.  Although I
>have a perfect nozzle check and no banding, (checked with a lupe) the
>right paper selected (epson luster) and the driver set to no color
>adjustment, The gradients do not drop off evenly I can see problems in
>the browns all over that place.

That's right, that's what building the printer profle is going to adjust
for.

The more unevenly things drop off; the harder the paper is to profile;
and the more likely it is that your results will be improved by going to
the 729 patch target.

>It was my understanding that all targets be printed with no color
>adjustment at the printer settings that you will be printing at with the
>created profile.

Yes, that's correct (and then later on, when you print through the profile,
you need to have the printer driver set up -exactly- the same way, otherwise
all bets are off...:-)

>SO....Why would I want to set this printer at anything else other than
>what epson wanted it set at?
>

You may find that other media settings in the driver may behave better
than others, with color adjustment turned off in the printer drive. David
Tobie has incorporated a number of excellent, detailed notes about what
to look for; in the Help file for the Media Setting Check page; if you haven't
read those yet, it's well worth the time to do so. It's often worth testing
several different media settings before you profile, to see what it is that
the driver will be doing before any profiling takes place.

You may discover that some non-standard media settings may give you less
blocking in the shadows; better uncalibrated transitions in gradients;
more saturated extremes; richer blacks; etc. The Media Setting check is
is PFP's useful new feature that can help you figure this out.

>What else is there to change and still leave it on no color adjustment?
>Paper is all there is.

That's right, but that's important. You will get different results when you
print through different media settings. You can print on Premium Luster, for
example, through the Premium Glossy media setting to see what the differences
are. Also try the "film" setting (I had built a profile for the 1280, for
Premium Luster, through the "film" setting that was amazing).

(Note that the Epson driver won't let you print with all media settings on
all papers; there are limits to how "bad" it will let you be; some of the
limits may seem arbitrary, but Epson probably knew what they were doing when
they put them in; if a media setting is dimmed, there's most likely a reason
why Epson doesn't want you to go there).

Once you've printed the Media Setting Check image through several different
settings, you can measure the black patch on each, compare the L values, and
see which media setting gives you the deepest black. Some media settings in
the driver will give you more black than others. (Yes, the media setting check
image is small, and the patches are small; but everyone who has access to the
new 1.1b5 version will discover that you can now print all of those 1/4 size
test and print preview images at -full- size on the page; and if you print
any of the Target images, you can always measure their black patch, of course).

Once again: the best documentation on how to use and interpret the Media
Setting Check image, in combination with different driver settings, is the
Help file.


Best regards,


-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by randy

Thanks for the info!  I am going thru the papers right now.

Where can I get the upgrade?

David Miller wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>OK, I noticed something on my test print with the babys.  Although I
>>have a perfect nozzle check and no banding, (checked with a lupe) the
>>right paper selected (epson luster) and the driver set to no color
>>adjustment, The gradients do not drop off evenly I can see problems in
>>the browns all over that place.
>>    
>>
>
>That's right, that's what building the printer profle is going to adjust
>for.
>
>The more unevenly things drop off; the harder the paper is to profile;
>and the more likely it is that your results will be improved by going to
>the 729 patch target.
>
>  
>
>>It was my understanding that all targets be printed with no color
>>adjustment at the printer settings that you will be printing at with the
>>created profile.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, that's correct (and then later on, when you print through the profile,
>you need to have the printer driver set up -exactly- the same way, otherwise
>all bets are off...:-)
>
>  
>
>>SO....Why would I want to set this printer at anything else other than
>>what epson wanted it set at?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>You may find that other media settings in the driver may behave better
>than others, with color adjustment turned off in the printer drive. David
>Tobie has incorporated a number of excellent, detailed notes about what
>to look for; in the Help file for the Media Setting Check page; if you haven't
>read those yet, it's well worth the time to do so. It's often worth testing
>several different media settings before you profile, to see what it is that
>the driver will be doing before any profiling takes place.
>
>You may discover that some non-standard media settings may give you less
>blocking in the shadows; better uncalibrated transitions in gradients;
>more saturated extremes; richer blacks; etc. The Media Setting check is
>is PFP's useful new feature that can help you figure this out.
>
>  
>
>>What else is there to change and still leave it on no color adjustment?
>>Paper is all there is.
>>    
>>
>
>That's right, but that's important. You will get different results when you
>print through different media settings. You can print on Premium Luster, for
>example, through the Premium Glossy media setting to see what the differences
>are. Also try the "film" setting (I had built a profile for the 1280, for
>Premium Luster, through the "film" setting that was amazing).
>
>(Note that the Epson driver won't let you print with all media settings on
>all papers; there are limits to how "bad" it will let you be; some of the
>limits may seem arbitrary, but Epson probably knew what they were doing when
>they put them in; if a media setting is dimmed, there's most likely a reason
>why Epson doesn't want you to go there).
>
>Once you've printed the Media Setting Check image through several different
>settings, you can measure the black patch on each, compare the L values, and
>see which media setting gives you the deepest black. Some media settings in
>the driver will give you more black than others. (Yes, the media setting check
>image is small, and the patches are small; but everyone who has access to the
>new 1.1b5 version will discover that you can now print all of those 1/4 size
>test and print preview images at -full- size on the page; and if you print
>any of the Target images, you can always measure their black patch, of course).
>
>Once again: the best documentation on how to use and interpret the Media
>Setting Check image, in combination with different driver settings, is the
>Help file.
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>
>  
>

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by David Miller

>Thanks for the info!  I am going thru the papers right now.
>
>Where can I get the upgrade?
>

Randy,

Email David Tobie, off list, to ask him for access to the beta version.

Best regards,

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by randy

another question,  How would a rip like (pocket rip) figure into this?

David Miller wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>Thanks for the info!  I am going thru the papers right now.
>>
>>Where can I get the upgrade?
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Randy,
>
>Email David Tobie, off list, to ask him for access to the beta version.
>
>Best regards,
>
>  
>

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-11 by David Miller

>another question,  How would a rip like (pocket rip) figure into this?
>

You would have to be able to print a target through the RIP, with color
adjustment turned off in the RIP; then measure it and build a profile in PFP;
then be able to hook the profile into the RIP's color management scheme as
an external RGB profile.

The PFP installation contains a "Targets" folder that has standalone-file
versions of each of the targets, if you need to load them externally from
the PFP app and print them through the RIP with a different program.

The key here is that the RIP has to be capable of using externally created
RGB printer profiles.


Best regards,

-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/10/06 6:30:19 PM, rlphoto@... writes:



How can I optimize these profiles for the browns?


We would need to figure out why you have this unusual problem, that no one else seems to have, before we can solve it. Can you send me a small sample file that shows the issue, OFF LIST, so that I can see what the issue looks like?

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/10/06 7:38:00 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


It was my understanding that all targets be printed with no color
adjustment at the printer settings that you will be printing at with the
created profile.


Right...

SO....Why would I want to set this printer at anything else other than
what epson wanted it set at?

The setting that is best for using Epson's canned profile for that media, is not necessarily optimal for printing targets and using custom profiles. Pretend all those media settings have numbers not names, and instead of using number 5, actually check them all, and see which one offers the best results. In your case, the one that is most linear in darker, satuarted color blends.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com


Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/10/06 7:45:12 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


What else is there to change and still leave it on no color adjustment?
Paper is all there is.


Well, for some of the more advanced printers (7600, 7800, 4800 etc) there is also a density setting that can be changed, but that is not usually necessary.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...m

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/10/06 8:39:34 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


another question, How would a rip like (pocket rip) figure into this?


RIPs tend to be channels specific devices. Those that use standard RGB profiles could be profiled like any other driver. The "Pocket RIP" is not a RIP at all, in the usual meaning, its an application direct export module. How it functions with profiles depends on what code is written into it for conversions. What advantages are you looking for from this export module, and how do you plan to relate that to RGB images? Is there something wrong with your RGB driver printing that you are looking to fix?I find, for color RGB images, that its darned hard to get better results than the Epson driver with a good custom profile...

You would have to want something very specific, very badly before moving from that workflow to the wild world of RIPs.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by David Guida

David,
This last post answered a lot of questions that I also have about RIPs. And it adds more. I am satisfied with the standard Epson driver for most of my work.
What is the need for a RIP for we photo printers? Will I save ink by using a RIP? Will the canvas prints be usable without coating with a RIP?
TIA
David
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] first profile


In a message dated 3/10/06 8:39:34 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


another question, How would a rip like (pocket rip) figure into this?


RIPs tend to be channels specific devices. Those that use standard RGB profiles could be profiled like any other driver. The "Pocket RIP" is not a RIP at all, in the usual meaning, its an application direct export module. How it functions with profiles depends on what code is written into it for conversions. What advantages are you looking for from this export module, and how do you plan to relate that to RGB images? Is there something wrong with your RGB driver printing that you are looking to fix?I find, for color RGB images, that its darned hard to get better results than the Epson driver with a good custom profile...

You would have to want something very specific, very badly before moving from that workflow to the wild world of RIPs.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/13/06 12:07:40 PM, dguida@... writes:


This last post answered a lot of questions that I also have about RIPs. And it adds more.

One good answer creates a hundred new questions...

I am satisfied with the standard Epson driver for most of my work.

Good, that keeps life simple and affordable...

What is the need for a RIP for we photo printers?

There can be advantages in several areas (or not...):

Layout and nesting: A RIP may have advanced software for laying out images, and nesting them for you, that the RGB driver does not have. But the roll is roll width. I tend to create custom page setups in the RGB driver for 8x24, 10x24, 12x24... on up to 48x24, for a 24 inch roll. Then I ask: can I print two of these images side by side on the roll? If so, I double it up (or even triple up a small image), and choose the correct length's page settings. If not, then I print it alone on the correct length page setting. Not rocket science, but it organizes life, saves paper... and doesn't require a RIP.

Channel control: RIPS can allow you to control things an RGB driver does not. I recommend using well formulated inks, good papers and canvasses, that don't require Superman to get good prints... then you won't need a RIP for this stuff, because you'll be getting good results without exotic intervention.

B&;W: channel control is great for advanced B&W printing... but I (and others) are working on making them unnecessary for that as well. Stay tuned.

Will I save ink by using a RIP?

No, with very few exceptions a given color on a print uses the same amount of ink from most any means of printing that color. You can replace more expensive color inks with cheaper black ink on press, with black generation changes, but they don't charge less of black inkjet carts, and there tends to be a "best" black generation method for a given type of inkjet anyways, one that you probably don't want to stray from, at least not without a degree in color science...

Will the canvas prints be usable without coating with a RIP?

No, though you could set it to coat your canvas prints for you, if you had an extra channel, and your coating could be run through an inkjet... those are the exotic types of things possible with a RIP... and a lot of extra time.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by David Guida

David,
Thank you. It appears that you have just saved me a few thousand $ at this point of my carreer.
Regards
David
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [colorvision_group] first profile


In a message dated 3/13/06 12:07:40 PM, dguida@... writes:


This last post answered a lot of questions that I also have about RIPs. And it adds more.

One good answer creates a hundred new questions...

I am satisfied with the standard Epson driver for most of my work.

Good, that keeps life simple and affordable...

What is the need for a RIP for we photo printers?

There can be advantages in several areas (or not...):

Layout and nesting: A RIP may have advanced software for laying out images, and nesting them for you, that the RGB driver does not have. But the roll is roll width. I tend to create custom page setups in the RGB driver for 8x24, 10x24, 12x24... on up to 48x24, for a 24 inch roll. Then I ask: can I print two of these images side by side on the roll? If so, I double it up (or even triple up a small image), and choose the correct length's page settings. If not, then I print it alone on the correct length page setting. Not rocket science, but it organizes life, saves paper... and doesn't require a RIP.

Channel control: RIPS can allow you to control things an RGB driver does not. I recommend using well formulated inks, good papers and canvasses, that don't require Superman to get good prints... then you won't need a RIP for this stuff, because you'll be getting good results without exotic intervention.

B&W: channel control is great for advanced B&W printing... but I (and others) are working on making them unnecessary for that as well. Stay tuned.

Will I save ink by using a RIP?

No, with very few exceptions a given color on a print uses the same amount of ink from most any means of printing that color. You can replace more expensive color inks with cheaper black ink on press, with black generation changes, but they don't charge less of black inkjet carts, and there tends to be a "best" black generation method for a given type of inkjet anyways, one that you probably don't want to stray from, at least not without a degree in color science...

Will the canvas prints be usable without coating with a RIP?

No, though you could set it to coat your canvas prints for you, if you had an extra channel, and your coating could be run through an inkjet... those are the exotic types of things possible with a RIP... and a lot of extra time.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] first profile

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/13/06 5:45:56 PM, dguida@... writes:


Thank you. It appears that you have just saved me a few thousand $ at this point of my carreer.


I'm sure you'll just blow it on a lens, or something... <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

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