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9 hours later

9 hours later

2006-03-11 by randy

Yawn....After 9 hours of running every media at both 720 and 1440, epson 
textured fine art looked the best for epson luster. Go figure....  
Anyway,  printfix pro managed to produce better browns and blacks in 
hair than the ackinson profile, at least in the soft proof.  I will 
reprofile in the morning after the target drys overnight.

Now, all the screwing around with these media settings, could this be 
eliminated with a RIP? 

Is there a way to force the printer to just print the test right?

Its pointless to print both at 720 and 1440 as I could tell no 
difference between the charts.  I also played with the ink limiting and 
that really doesn't help things either.

Randy

Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by Tom

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, randy <rlphoto@...> wrote:

> Now, all the screwing around with these media settings, could this be 
> eliminated with a RIP? 

Don't you just end up with different media setting to mess around
with?  You may actually end up with MORE settings to mess around with
depending on the RIP.

> Is there a way to force the printer to just print the test right?

Thats kind of the problem isn't it.  Somewhere in one of the threads a
fellow member posted a quote from one of the professional profiling
services who said "for some combinations of paper and ink just will
not profile well".  It really won't matter who's equipment is used to
make a profile.

The generic test images are good but it seems there may be utility in
having other test images which exercise a specific area of the gamut
for problem resolutions.  The two areas I have heard of with issues
are browns, as in your messages, and deep blues.  The R1800 has a red
and a blue ink in addition to the CMYK inks for just that reason.

Half of the magic is in finding just the right paper.  I'm certainly
no color expert but as a fellow enthusiast am greatly interested in
which combinations of paper and ink work the best.  I only have the
one printer so can comment only on Epson UltraChrome high gloss inkset
on the R1800 but would be most happy to share what works well for me.

I've also found that having a good tool goes a very long way in
helping me truely understand color management.  It was much easier to
just think that my printer was uncalibrated and everything would be
MUCH better with .. say ... a RIP or a more expensive printer.  It is
a very good sign that your profile does a better job than the one
produced by Bill Atkinson.  That means you're definately doing
something right!!

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by randy

Thanks Tom,  I did a little research this morning and read that coated 
art paper settings have smaller gamut's than the photo papers 
(luster,glossy),  there for are easier to profile.  Maybe that is why 
the test targets I printed on epson luster look better with the art 
paper settings.  Duno.

So when I start to build a profile, I have to print a chart of every 
paper setting every time?  it would be nice for us 24"roll paper  users 
to be able to print the tests in a strait line instead of 4 corners.  
Canvas will be a real pain to test. Maybe I will use qimage or 
photoshop.  In fact I just remembered that qimage will remember all the 
printer settings and keep them in memory . So once I input them once,  
it will only take one click to recall each media setting.  I might be on 
to something here.

I am still struggling to see the overall (the BIG picture) relationships 
between the monitor Black/white/gamma points, the profile black/white 
points, the soft proof black/white points, the printer black/white 
points The rendering intent black/white points not to mention black 
point compensation.  I wish there was a visual road map I could look at 
to (visually) see the relationships all on one big chart. Being a 
totally visual learner (I have to be able to imagine a visual image of 
something in my brain in order to understand it, this can be tough with 
computer concepts) incremental learning doesn't work so well with me. 
Unfortunately incremental learning is the way most of the world is set 
up.  I am sure glad C.D. puts pictures in the help files.

Yes, it is better than atkinsons. And a shmo like me made it the same 
day I got the stuff. I would sure hate to be the other profiling system 
makers right now.  I bet they are not sleeping so well lately.

Randy

Tom wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, randy <rlphoto@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Now, all the screwing around with these media settings, could this be 
>>eliminated with a RIP? 
>>    
>>
>
>Don't you just end up with different media setting to mess around
>with?  You may actually end up with MORE settings to mess around with
>depending on the RIP.
>
>  
>
>>Is there a way to force the printer to just print the test right?
>>    
>>
>
>Thats kind of the problem isn't it.  Somewhere in one of the threads a
>fellow member posted a quote from one of the professional profiling
>services who said "for some combinations of paper and ink just will
>not profile well".  It really won't matter who's equipment is used to
>make a profile.
>
>The generic test images are good but it seems there may be utility in
>having other test images which exercise a specific area of the gamut
>for problem resolutions.  The two areas I have heard of with issues
>are browns, as in your messages, and deep blues.  The R1800 has a red
>and a blue ink in addition to the CMYK inks for just that reason.
>
>Half of the magic is in finding just the right paper.  I'm certainly
>no color expert but as a fellow enthusiast am greatly interested in
>which combinations of paper and ink work the best.  I only have the
>one printer so can comment only on Epson UltraChrome high gloss inkset
>on the R1800 but would be most happy to share what works well for me.
>
>I've also found that having a good tool goes a very long way in
>helping me truely understand color management.  It was much easier to
>just think that my printer was uncalibrated and everything would be
>MUCH better with .. say ... a RIP or a more expensive printer.  It is
>a very good sign that your profile does a better job than the one
>produced by Bill Atkinson.  That means you're definately doing
>something right!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by David Miller

>Thanks Tom,  I did a little research this morning and read that coated
>art paper settings have smaller gamut's than the photo papers
>(luster,glossy),  there for are easier to profile.  Maybe that is why
>the test targets I printed on epson luster look better with the art
>paper settings.  Duno.

It's more a question of the kinds of results you can get, after profiling,
more than how easy the paper is to profile or not.

When you print the target on any given paper, with a specific media setting,
you're seeing the absolute limits of what can be printed on that printer/ink/
paper/media setting combination. Your saturated colors can't be any more
saturated; your black can't be any blacker. The most that any profile can
do is give you the extremes, as they're printed in the target, and make
everything else in between look right. (Nothing else is physically possible).

If you compare target prints on different papers from the same printer,
you'll see that some papers have a wider gamut than others. With pigmented
inks, glossy/luster papers will always give you a black with a much lower
measured L value than what you can get on any matte/fine art paper, coated
or not.

So if your goal is to get the deepest absolute blacks, you will never be
able to achieve that with matte papers vs. glossy, no matter what any profile
does.

Also, speaking of resolution: I wouldn't bother running any of these tests
at 720 dpi. Just do them at the resolution you're going to be making real
prints at and leave it at that. (So: 1440 or 2880).

>So when I start to build a profile, I have to print a chart of every
>paper setting every time?

That's a little extreme. And even if you wanted to be extreme, I would suggest
the following: pick 4, and print them in corners on the same sheet, then
just eyeball them quickly and make a judgement. On letter size paper, it's
pretty quick to just run the same sheet back through the printer and overprint.
(The only printers this WON'T work on are the gloss-optimized Epsons, like
my R800, since with gloss optimizer on, the entire sheet, including blank white
area, gets covered and you can't overprint onto it).

>it would be nice for us 24"roll paper  users
>to be able to print the tests in a strait line instead of 4 corners. 

That wouldn't help, because you have to do the prints SEPARATELY, with the
media setting changed in the driver. You can't do them all in one shot,
so printing them in a straight line doesn't work. You need to print; go back
into the driver; change the media setting; print again. With roll paper,
you -could- roll the paper back up and print again (although I'm not sure
how easy that is; on my 4800, everything having to do with handling and printing
roll paper is sheer annoyance).

I'd suggest cutting a chunk off the roll, and then cut -that- into
two letter sized sheets, if you don't have any cut sheets of the same media.

>
>Yes, it is better than atkinsons.

Now -that- is great to hear...:-)

>And a shmo like me made it the same
>day I got the stuff.

You can probably do it quicker and more efficiently the next time around,
too, now that you've been through the process once.


-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by randy

Hi  David,  Yes I realize that each print has to have different driver 
settings.  It is very easy to reroll the paper back up because that is 
what roll paper printers do is work from roll paper.  I am mainly 
talking 19mil canvas here, because that cut sheets are very flimsy and 
are very hairy to run. the 7600 rolls the sheets back and forth very 
fast and it is very easy to get a crash.  The roll is much more stable.  
I am going to try printing from qimage.

Thanks for the reply,  I still wish I understood all this black stuff 
better.  At least my out of gamut deep blacks dont turn green now like 
they did with the atkinsons. And there is more detail and almost no 
posterization.

Randy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>That wouldn't help, because you have to do the prints SEPARATELY, with the
>media setting changed in the driver. You can't do them all in one shot,
>so printing them in a straight line doesn't work. You need to print; go back
>into the driver; change the media setting; print again. With roll paper,
>you -could- roll the paper back up and print again (although I'm not sure
>how easy that is; on my 4800, everything having to do with handling and printing
>roll paper is sheer annoyance).
>
>I'd suggest cutting a chunk off the roll, and then cut -that- into
>two letter sized sheets, if you don't have any cut sheets of the same media.
>
>  
>
>>Yes, it is better than atkinsons.
>>    
>>
>
>Now -that- is great to hear...:-)
>
>  
>
>>And a shmo like me made it the same
>>day I got the stuff.
>>    
>>
>
>You can probably do it quicker and more efficiently the next time around,
>too, now that you've been through the process once.
>
>
>  
>

Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by Tom

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> 
> (The only printers this WON'T work on are the gloss-optimized
Epsons, like
> my R800, since with gloss optimizer on, the entire sheet, including
blank white
> area, gets covered and you can't overprint onto it).

The R1800 can print the gloss optimizer over just the area printed or
over the entire page.  Yours doesn't do that?  I thought the drivers
were the same for the R800 and R1800.

[colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by David Miller

>--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...>
>> (The only printers this WON'T work on are the gloss-optimized
>Epsons, like
>> my R800, since with gloss optimizer on, the entire sheet, including
>blank white
>> area, gets covered and you can't overprint onto it).
>
>The R1800 can print the gloss optimizer over just the area printed or
>over the entire page.  Yours doesn't do that?  I thought the drivers
>were the same for the R800 and R1800.
>

I've tried this, and the only settings that my R800 driver give me are
gloss optimizer on, or off. No other variation. (I should check and see
if I have the latest R800 driver, though). And it definitely GLOPS onto
all of the unprinted white area on the sheet.


-- 
David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
ColorVision

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by Bob Frost

Tom,

The gloss optimizer (GLOP) is NOT printed over the whole image; it is ONLY 
printed on the lighter parts of the image where there is less ink laid down. 
The new inks are glossier than the glossy paper, so where there is little or 
no ink, the image is clearly less glossy with the GLOP off. Turn the GLOP on 
and it is added to the less glossy areas.

As you said, it can also be added to the white areas outside the image (but 
still in the printable area) if you select that option.

It is NOT added to the darker areas of the print which are already glossy 
enough. These inks in the R1800 and R800 are called HiGloss Ultrachromes 
because they are glossier than the previous Ultrachromes - different coating 
to the pigment particles.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Tom" <ttrostel@...>
>
> The R1800 can print the gloss optimizer over just the area printed or
> over the entire page.  Yours doesn't do that?  I thought the drivers
> were the same for the R800 and R1800.

Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-11 by Tom

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:
 
> I've tried this, and the only settings that my R800 driver give me are
> gloss optimizer on, or off. No other variation. (I should check and see
> if I have the latest R800 driver, though). And it definitely GLOPS onto
> all of the unprinted white area on the sheet.

It does appear to be a different driver when I look closely.  Thats
really annoying!  Just something for the Epson folks to fix then :-)

Re: [colorvision_group] 9 hours later

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/11/06 12:47:55 AM, rlphoto@... writes:


Now, all the screwing around with these media settings, could this be
eliminated with a RIP?


Actually, its multiplied with a RIP; RIPs expect you to monkey with a wide range of interacting settings, instead of simply pick from a short list of preconfigured ones.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] 9 hours later

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/11/06 12:47:55 AM, rlphoto@... writes:


Its pointless to print both at 720 and 1440 as I could tell no
difference between the charts.


Agreed... on most systems...

I also played with the ink limiting and
that really doesn't help things either.

Right, unless your media holds less ink than most, this won't accomplish much...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com


Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/11/06 10:51:40 AM, rlphoto@... writes:


So when I start to build a profile, I have to print a chart of every
paper setting every time?


Only for an unknown type of media; you'll learn quickly enough which one or two media settings to try of a new paper of a particual type.

it would be nice for us 24"roll paper users
to be able to print the tests in a strait line instead of 4 corners.

Between now and when PrintFIX PRO offers more printing features, you can use the TIFF format image files in the Targets folder to configure anything that suits your needs, or saves you time or paper.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/11/06 10:51:40 AM, rlphoto@... writes:


I am still struggling to see the overall (the BIG picture) relationships
between the monitor Black/white/gamma points, the profile black/white
points, the soft proof black/white points, the printer black/white
points The rendering intent black/white points not to mention black
point compensation.


Well, the monitor can only display within it gamut, and with good choices in monitor calibration and ambient lighting, you can use teh Ref Black and White adjustments to get the best SoftProof emulation out of your printer profile, via your monitor profile, to emulate what you will get on your actual media, through your printer profilie. No one will say that that number of variables will be trivial...

Black Point Compensation is not an ICC feature. Its an Adobe hack for press emulation. Leave it turned off for use with ColorVision profiles for your own image printing, or it will attempt to double up your black correction in Relative Colorimetric prints, and weaken your black; which most users won't want unless they are emulating press prints, or some such.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-13 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/11/06 6:32:51 PM, ttrostel@... writes:



It does appear to be a different driver when I look closely. Thats
really annoying! Just something for the Epson folks to fix then :-)


If you are looking for a replacement R800 driver with new features at this late date, I expect you'll be disappointed...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-14 by randy

CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 3/11/06 10:51:40 AM, rlphoto@... writes:
>
>
>> I am still struggling to see the overall (the BIG picture) relationships
>> between the monitor Black/white/gamma points, the profile black/white
>> points, the soft proof black/white points, the printer black/white
>> points The rendering intent black/white points not to mention black
>> point compensation.
>
>
>
> Well, the monitor can only display within it gamut, and with good 
> choices in monitor calibration and ambient lighting, you can use teh 
> Ref Black and White adjustments


What is teh Ref?

> to get the best SoftProof emulation out of your printer profile, via 
> your monitor profile, to emulate what you will get on your actual 
> media, through your printer profilie. No one will say that that number 
> of variables will be trivial...


Sounds good.


>
> Black Point Compensation is not an ICC feature. Its an Adobe hack for 
> press emulation. Leave it turned off for use with ColorVision profiles 
> for your own image printing, or it will attempt to double up your 
> black correction in Relative Colorimetric prints, and weaken your 
> black; which most users won't want unless they are emulating press 
> prints, or some such.


Sounds OK to me!

Thanks!

Randy Laskody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>
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> Digital photography software 
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Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/13/06 10:54:23 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


> Well, the monitor can only display within it gamut, and with good
> choices in monitor calibration and ambient lighting, you can use teh
> Ref Black and White adjustments


What is teh Ref?



Pardon my spelling, but on the profile settings page there are Ref White and Ref Black buttons. See help for a description of what they do...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-14 by randy

How did these buttons get preset already?

Randy Laskody

CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> In a message dated 3/13/06 10:54:23 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
>
>
>> > Well, the monitor can only display within it gamut, and with good
>> > choices in monitor calibration and ambient lighting, you can use teh
>> > Ref Black and White adjustments
>>
>>
>> What is teh Ref?
>>
>
>
> Pardon my spelling, but on the profile settings page there are Ref 
> White and Ref Black buttons. See help for a description of what they do...
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital photography software 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+software&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=vcZVcv11-RF9aChCrpL-cA> 
> 	Digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=NPMG-BjOjJWWWu1WTDecRQ> 
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Re: [colorvision_group] Re: 9 hours later

2006-03-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/14/06 3:10:21 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


How did these buttons get preset already?


The buttons are not active, unless you choose them. The reason for this is that some hot-rod color geek is going to "test" the "quality" of our profiles, by the mindless expediant of checking if the Lab to Printer side is an exact reflection of the Printer to Lab side; and if we preset these, it woudn't be, even though that would make for a better screen to print match, not a worse one... but that wouldn't save us from getting criticized, so we leave these as options, though I would recommend them for most cases.

Once you go into the Black or White Ref Values, you can check the checkbox for the most likely adjustments for more accurate softproofing. For more on the topic, look at the help on that page, it has a section devoted to this.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.