Yahoo Groups archive

Datacolor User to User Support Group.

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:18 UTC

Thread

Idea for profile accuracy

Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by potomacbassfisher

Forget trying to make patch reading easier/faster, it's already a 
breeze.  But here's an idea for profile accuracy.

This could be done with a modification of the software or outside the 
software with a nifty Excel spreadsheet (and I hope this wasn't 
already thought of but it may have been.)

You really don't want to average profiles, you just want to cast out 
anomalies.  So you must take a minimum of three readings per patch.  
The program (spreadsheet whatever) will look at the readings on the 
three and searh for the reading that is out of bounds keeping an 
average of the two closest reading (or just one of them.)  This would 
be a sure way to catch a false read on a patch.

Let me know what you think.

On an unrealated note - Every time I install after using the program 
and closing out I'm getting an error when reopening the program to 
use it the second time.  Program is crashing on me and not sure why.  
I've uninstalled/reinstalled several times and it's always the same.  
I am not profiling the default printer so could it have to do with 
that?

-Jonathan

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/9/06 8:28:32 AM, jpgentry@... writes:


Forget trying to make patch reading easier/faster, it's already a
breeze.


I'll certainly second that one...

But here's an idea for profile accuracy.

This could be done with a modification of the software or outside the
software with a nifty Excel spreadsheet (and I hope this wasn't
already thought of but it may have been.)

You really don't want to average profiles, you just want to cast out
anomalies. So you must take a minimum of three readings per patch.
The program (spreadsheet whatever) will look at the readings on the
three and searh for the reading that is out of bounds keeping an
average of the two closest reading (or just one of them.) This would
be a sure way to catch a false read on a patch.



If I found that I made even one undiscovered patch error per chart (or even per several charts) then this type of multiple reading scheme would interest me more... but I don't see why errors are happening and not being noticed in the first place. Let me be frank: I can go to my hotel room, after a long day on a show floor (talking to all of you ), and a long evening out doing business, and partaking of more refreshments than I ever do at home, do a couple of hours or email, and about two in the morning, sleep deprived, I get around to reading the target prints that other booths gave me to color manage their booth printers. I read a few of them, check the results in the morning, and they are all just fine. So maybe its just me, but reading a chart a hair slower once, instead of sloppily the three times needed for averaging, seems the quicker and easier solution. The "hair slower" speed for me is about five minutes per 225 patch chart... I can do it in four if I'm wide awake, and hurry... even then I might reread two or three patches (within that four minutes), and not miss a single one that I didn't know I blew, when I blew it.

Here's how color geeks used to check this: open the TIFF version of the target that you used to profile your printer/ink/paper in Photoshop in AdobeRGB, and go to Custom Proof Setup, and apply your custom profile to the target. Toggle between softproof, and nonsoftproofed views (Command or Control Y, depending on platform) and see if any of the patches show as being out of line. We built this feature right into PrintFIX PRO, with the Raw/Split/Measured option for any measurement set, and now we're adding quick key commands to let you toggle between them instantly. How can you miss patches, when you get the option to do this check, and to remeasure any suspicious patches on the spot, before even building your profile?

That is what PrintFIX PRO is about: bringing years of color expert's knowledge and techniques to all users. Tuning paper white and ink black previews, selecting an optimal media setting, all of those tricks are expert methods now available to anyone who'll take the time to read the help, and give it a try.

Oh, on the point of how carefully does the nose of the Spectro be placed on the patch:

The nose of the spectro is 10mm wide. The opening in it is 7mm wide. The measured area, within that 7mm illuminated area, is 4mm wide. This allows for "over-illumination" necessary to accurately measure translucent materials. So when you notice that the nose of the spectro has crowded the edge of the patch, and remeasure it, chances are that you still weren't off enough to have effected the reading. In fact, since the gap between patches is typically about a 1.5mm, you would have to be over the line, and have the nosecone onto the next patch before it would effect readings. Try it in the spot measure function, you'll find this to be true. So a lot of concerns about reading accuracy and reading times, are just obsessing about things that simply don't matter. If you read a chart slowly and precisely, and then read it fast and dirty, as long as you scan for errors before building the profile, I don't think you'll be able to tell one from the other... just (as Red Green would say) keep your stick on the ice...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/9/06 8:28:32 AM, jpgentry@... writes:


On an unrealated note - Every time I install after using the program
and closing out I'm getting an error when reopening the program to
use it the second time. Program is crashing on me and not sure why.
I've uninstalled/reinstalled several times and it's always the same.
I am not profiling the default printer so could it have to do with
that?



Is your default printer a network laser, or an HP DesignJet? If so, reset the default to a local inkjet, and see if that eliminates the issue. If it doesn't, contact me off-list and we'll work on troubleshooting your issue.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by Tom

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:

The bell at the end of the line always told me when the patches wern't
read right ... DING .. too early or too late were the only problems
I've had so far (double or skipped read).  Curiously they only happen
when my teenage daughter is in the room asking lots of questions ...
hmmmmmm.

Now ... if you have a software mod which will take care of *THAT*
problem you have a customer for life!!

Re: Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by potomacbassfisher

Excellent decription.  Makes me more confident with reading my 
patches and not being overly anal about the whole thing.  I do know 
at times however that a printer can have trouble with the heads or 
there can be a very minute amount of gunk on the paper that will 
cause an anomaly in the reading apart from just missing patches etc.. 
My idea with throwing out the anomalies of three patch readings would 
catch either situation although a careful examination of the patches 
beforehand should ceratinly suffice for print problems on the 
patches...  What you say makes sense.  Nothing to worry about.

Bravo on a great product.  I've been printing with my dj130 now for 
quite awile using default profiles and resisting the urge to get 
custom profiles made (because I wanted an i1 in the past.)  Now after 
just one day with the PrintFixPro I feel like the last 20% of the 
printer has been unlocked.  I printed a photo heavy on browns out 
last night that the custom HP profiles had destroyed.  In the past 
the colors looked aweful and I thought the browns were just out of 
gamut for the printer or something.  After profiling with PFP the 
image is AWESOME!  It looks just like the monitor.  A little darker 
because I'm viewing under standard lighting.  Thanks for the great 
product.  Anyone using the default HP profiles for designjet printers 
really NEEDS one of these.

-Jonathan



> The nose of the spectro is 10mm wide. The opening in it is 7mm 
wide. The 
> measured area, within that 7mm illuminated area, is 4mm wide. This 
allows for 
> "over-illumination" necessary to accurately measure translucent 
materials. So when 
> you notice that the nose of the spectro has crowded the edge of the 
patch, 
> and remeasure it, chances are that you still weren't off enough to 
have effected 
> the reading. In fact, since the gap between patches is typically 
about a 
> 1.5mm, you would have to be over the line, and have the nosecone 
onto the next 
> patch before it would effect readings. Try it in the spot measure 
function, 
> you'll find this to be true. So a lot of concerns about reading 
accuracy and 
> reading times, are just obsessing about things that simply don't 
matter. If you read 
> a chart slowly and precisely, and then read it fast and dirty, as 
long as you 
> scan for errors before building the profile, I don't think you'll 
be able to 
> tell one from the other... just (as Red Green would say) keep your 
stick on 
> the ice...

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-09 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/9/06 12:15:49 PM, ttrostel@... writes:


The bell at the end of the line always told me when the patches wern't
read right ... DING .. too early or too late were the only problems
I've had so far (double or skipped read). Curiously they only happen
when my teenage daughter is in the room asking lots of questions ...
hmmmmmm.

Now ... if you have a software mod which will take care of *THAT*
problem you have a customer for life!!


I'm afraid that AOL already has a patent on that concept...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-14 by randy

I tried this and a few dozen  patches get a lot darker. ?????

Randy Laskody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
> Here's how color geeks used to check this: open the TIFF version of 
> the target that you used to profile your printer/ink/paper in 
> Photoshop in AdobeRGB, and go to Custom Proof Setup, and apply your 
> custom profile to the target. Toggle between softproof, and 
> nonsoftproofed views (Command or Control Y, depending on platform) and 
> see if any of the patches show as being out of line. We built this 
> feature right into PrintFIX PRO, with the Raw/Split/Measured option 
> for any measurement set, and now we're adding quick key commands to 
> let you toggle between them instantly. How can you miss patches, when 
> you get the option to do this check, and to remeasure any suspicious 
> patches on the spot, before even building your profile?
>
> That is what PrintFIX PRO is about: bringing years of color expert's 
> knowledge and techniques to all users. Tuning paper white and ink 
> black previews, selecting an optimal media setting, all of those 
> tricks are expert methods now available to anyone who'll take the time 
> to read the help, and give it a try.
>
>
>/277 - Release Date: 3/8/2006
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/14/06 12:37:04 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


I tried this and a few dozen patches get a lot darker. ?????


Yes, but its the overall pattern you are looking for, that one patch doesn't turn an odd color, or jump in a different direction than the others...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-14 by randy

Just darker.  Why?

Randy

CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> In a message dated 3/14/06 12:37:04 PM, rlphoto@... writes:
>
>
>> I tried this and a few dozen  patches get a lot darker. ?????
>
>
>
> Yes, but its the overall pattern you are looking for, that one patch 
> doesn't turn an odd color, or jump in a different direction than the 
> others...
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Digital photography software 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+software&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=vcZVcv11-RF9aChCrpL-cA> 
> 	Digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=NPMG-BjOjJWWWu1WTDecRQ> 
> 	Digital photography course 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Digital+photography+course&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=GPs-R_fGq5Hih2NpQczQ8g> 
>
> Photography school 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Photography+school&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=pj3cKQlkMhgkqUXNMJjiCw> 
> 	Professional digital photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Professional+digital+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=k7x9GYFzNn4NfJTZP-Vt_g> 
> 	Stock photography 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Stock+photography&w1=Digital+photography+software&w2=Digital+photography&w3=Digital+photography+course&w4=Photography+school&w5=Professional+digital+photography&w6=Stock+photography&c=6&s=176&.sig=H9bHMH_cKn4LEqWkcUABgg> 
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "colorvision_group
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/colorvision_group>" on the web.
>        
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       <mailto:colorvision_group-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>        
>     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.2/280 - Release Date: 3/13/2006
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Idea for profile accuracy

2006-03-14 by CDTobie@aol.com


In a message dated 3/14/06 3:09:57 PM, rlphoto@... writes:


Just darker. Why?


Why do raw RGB values blasted to your screen look different that Lab values measured from your printer, converted back to RGB? Too many reasons to list... but suffice it to say, if they didn't look different, you probably wouldn't need to profile your printer...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...

www.colorvision.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.