Datacolor User to User Support Group.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <rtmlists8888@...> wrote:
>
> David
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks for your quick response. This paper is one I use for printing B&W
> images using QuadtoneRIP and other MIS inks. Admittedly, it's a different
> situation, but I have no problem with over inking in that case.
> 
>  
> 
> Your suggestion that the paper ink combination was unsuitable prompted me to
> try another test.

Tom, have you tried that inkset on a different printer or with the PAHP205?  I've been 
following this thread with some interest as I have currently, an R220 with Mispro and have 
achieved a good profile with the PAHP205 using PFP, but I am almost out of the 205 and 
wanted to switch to the 270.  I also have an R1800 I'll be setting up soon with the same 
inkset.  I also use the PAHP205 for all of my matte b&w work but have wanted a heavier 
paper.  I'm curious how much difference is in the 205 and the 270, and how much 
difference different printers make.  I guess bottom line for me will be try a small package 
first although for economic considerations I'd like to buy large packages.

This also seems a good place to ask the following question.  Does anyone have a key to the 
rankings (in terms of ink loads) in the various Epson settings?  I know there are differently 
named settings for different printers but there must be some logical progression to the ink 
loads. (An analogy to this question is that it took me months online to discover that Best 
Photo simply meant 1440 dpi and Photo RPM meant 2880)

 I wonder, for example,  about sometimes using gloss settings on matte papers (switching 
chips if necessary) in order to cut down ink loads.  Since there are so many settings and one 
doesn't know if they get progressively lighter or heavier or are listed in random order, you 
can blow through a lot of time and paper looking for the right inkload.

I've asked this question in other forums without any luck, any info here...?

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:
>
> This also seems a good place to ask the following question.  Does anyone have a key to 
the 
> rankings (in terms of ink loads) in the various Epson settings?  I know there are 
differently 
> named settings for different printers but there must be some logical progression to the 
ink 
> loads. (An analogy to this question is that it took me months online to discover that Best 
> Photo simply meant 1440 dpi and Photo RPM meant 2880)

Robert,

Take a look at my Excel chart on 4800 matte media settings with William Turner:

http://homepage.mac.com/johnvito/WilliamTurnerMediaSettings.png

The chart places the ink media settings in the following order from heaviest to lightest:

Heavy-
EnhancedMatte
VelvetFineArt
UltraSmooth
WaterColor
TexturedArt
Lightest-

But out all the media settings UltraSmooth has the smoothest ramp (no reversals) from 
100% to 90%, and that was my choice to build William Turner profiles with.

Not sure what printer you have but I think you'll need to do your own tests to find the best 
media settings. 1440 lays down less ink than 2880....so take that into consideration.

Build a ten step gray ramp in Photoshop and print with all media settings, let dry and 
measure. Be careful of running the paper through a number of times as the rollers could 
leave marks on previously printed grayscale ramps burnishing some of the patches.

Tell us what you find!

Robert

I do have some other papers, but I haven't tried them yet with the MISPro
inks. In particular, in addition to PFA I have the Premier Premium Matte
210GSM that is two sided that I'd like to use for proofing. I also have the
usual range of Epson papers. In general I the Premier papers a lot because I
like their quality and I can get them relatively inexpensively from CCBC in
Toronto.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of robert49brake

...

> 
> Tom, have you tried that inkset on a different printer or with the
> PAHP205?  I've been
> following this thread with some interest as I have currently, an R220 with
> Mispro and have
> achieved a good profile with the PAHP205 using PFP, but I am almost out of
> the 205 and
> wanted to switch to the 270.  I also have an R1800 I'll be setting up soon
> with the same
> inkset.  I also use the PAHP205 for all of my matte b&w work but have
> wanted a heavier
> paper.  I'm curious how much difference is in the 205 and the 270, and how
> much
> difference different printers make.  I guess bottom line for me will be
> try a small package
> first although for economic considerations I'd like to buy large packages.
> 

...

In my case, there was no Epson paper selection that provided an acceptable
media setting check. I simply guessed that VFA had the highest the ink load
and it was similar in weight to PFA so I started with it.

I then printed several media setting check images with various Color density
settings until I had bracketed the range where mottling stopped (around -20%
to -25%). I then tried printing (with Color Management turned off) a series
of 100% black squares at different color densities to see how the dmax was
affected. I found that -25% had a close enough dmax (1.60) that I chose it.

I find now that, printing with the profile I created, I can only achieve
1.57 dmax, but looking at the media setting check images again, I think I
might be able to raise the ink limit to -20% and get better dmax. I can get
1.65 dmax on PFA with QuadtoneRIP with UT7 inks which I think uses the same
matte black (Eboni).

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of robert49brake
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:43 AM
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [colorvision_group] Ink Limits and Epson Settings
> 
> This also seems a good place to ask the following question.  Does anyone
> have a key to the
> rankings (in terms of ink loads) in the various Epson settings?  I know
> there are differently
> named settings for different printers but there must be some logical
> progression to the ink
> loads. (An analogy to this question is that it took me months online to
> discover that Best
> Photo simply meant 1440 dpi and Photo RPM meant 2880)
> 
>  I wonder, for example,  about sometimes using gloss settings on matte
> papers (switching
> chips if necessary) in order to cut down ink loads.  Since there are so
> many settings and one
> doesn't know if they get progressively lighter or heavier or are listed in
> random order, you
> can blow through a lot of time and paper looking for the right inkload.
> 
> I've asked this question in other forums without any luck, any info
> here...?
> 
>

John

I presume these were printed without any Color Management or color controls
by the driver, other than that imposed by the media setting. You then ranked
them by the dmax achieved. I agree with your rational for choice of media
setting, but I don't quite understand how dmax equates to ink load. Perhaps
ink load is irrelevant and dmax (and smoothness) is what is important.

Tom Moore

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Vitollo
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:01 PM
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: Ink Limits and Epson Settings

...

> 
> Take a look at my Excel chart on 4800 matte media settings with William
> Turner:
> 
> http://homepage.mac.com/johnvito/WilliamTurnerMediaSettings.png
> 
> The chart places the ink media settings in the following order from
> heaviest to lightest:
> 
> Heavy-
> EnhancedMatte
> VelvetFineArt
> UltraSmooth
> WaterColor
> TexturedArt
> Lightest-
> 
> But out all the media settings UltraSmooth has the smoothest ramp (no
> reversals) from
> 100% to 90%, and that was my choice to build William Turner profiles with.
> 
> Not sure what printer you have but I think you'll need to do your own
> tests to find the best
> media settings. 1440 lays down less ink than 2880....so take that into
> consideration.
> 

...

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "John Vitollo" <jvlist@...> wrote:

> 
> Take a look at my Excel chart on 4800 matte media settings with William Turner:

> The chart places the ink media settings in the following order from heaviest to lightest:
> 
> Heavy-
> EnhancedMatte
> VelvetFineArt
> UltraSmooth
> WaterColor
> TexturedArt
> Lightest-
> 
> But out all the media settings UltraSmooth has the smoothest ramp (no reversals) from 
> 100% to 90%, and that was my choice to build William Turner profiles with.

Thanks John, that's a great start.  Have you ever used any of the glossy settings with matte 
inks?
 
> Not sure what printer you have but I think you'll need to do your own tests to find the 
best 
> media settings. 1440 lays down less ink than 2880....so take that into consideration.

I have a pair of R220s right now, one dedicated color and one b&W and I have a pair of 
1800s I'll be setting up when I get home in March.   I have lot's of profiles to do for the 
1800s so any shortcuts will help.
 
> Build a ten step gray ramp in Photoshop and print with all media settings, let dry and 
> measure. Be careful of running the paper through a number of times as the rollers could 
> leave marks on previously printed grayscale ramps burnishing some of the patches.

That's a very good idea using much less paper than the PFP printout to eliminate the 
obvious bad settings.  I have experienced the roller problem when running lots of 21 step 
prints on a single sheet when fine tuning curves for QTR and such.

> Tell us what you find!

I'll be happy to when I get back.  It would be nice to have a library of sorts to reference.  
Gut feeling makes me think there may be many settings within the Epson printers that 
may work well with 3rd party inks and papers that of course Epson has no interest in.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

  Have you ever used any of the glossy settings with matte 
> inks?

and meant to say matte papers.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <rtmlists8888@...> wrote:
>
> I find now that, printing with the profile I created, I can only achieve
> 1.57 dmax, but looking at the media setting check images again, I think I
> might be able to raise the ink limit to -20% and get better dmax. I can get
> 1.65 dmax on PFA with QuadtoneRIP with UT7 inks which I think uses the same
> matte black (Eboni).

While using the Colorvision built profile are you using Saturation and no Black Point 
Compensation as recommended by Colorvision? That would affect dmax.

Tom you've probably read the QTR posts where QTR did the same... lowered the tested 
dmax after profile was built with linearization.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <rtmlists8888@...> wrote:
>
> I presume these were printed without any Color Management or color controls
> by the driver, other than that imposed by the media setting. 

Yes all ramps were printed without Color Management or color controls.

>  I agree with your rational for choice of media
> setting, but I don't quite understand how dmax equates to ink load. Perhaps
> ink load is irrelevant and dmax (and smoothness) is what is important.

My rational for the test was to find the best media settings that would open up the 
shadows while keeping the best dmax possible and smoothest gradation. Then the 
custom profile would need to do less of the heavy lifting. 

>but I don't quite understand how dmax equates to ink load. 

Hey you got me thinking...thanks! Either the chart shows the maxium ink load of the 
driver and/or it's showing the maxium amount of Epson ink the paper can handle before it 
flat lines.

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

> > But out all the media settings UltraSmooth has the smoothest ramp (no reversals) from 
> > 100% to 90%, and that was my choice to build William Turner profiles with.
> 
> Thanks John, that's a great start.  Have you ever used any of the glossy settings with matte 
> inks?

I don't think I have...

> I have a pair of R220s right now, one dedicated color and one b&W and I have a pair of 
> 1800s I'll be setting up when I get home in March.   I have lot's of profiles to do for the 
> 1800s so any shortcuts will help.

I just purchased the R380...nice little printer!

Best,

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Vitollo
...
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Moore" <rtmlists8888@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I find now that, printing with the profile I created, I can only achieve
> > 1.57 dmax, but looking at the media setting check images again, I think
> I
> > might be able to raise the ink limit to -20% and get better dmax. I can
> get
> > 1.65 dmax on PFA with QuadtoneRIP with UT7 inks which I think uses the
> same
> > matte black (Eboni).
> 
> While using the Colorvision built profile are you using Saturation and no
> Black Point
> Compensation as recommended by Colorvision? That would affect dmax.

I don't think I printed with those options. Perhaps I should RTFM. Thanks
for pointing out that possibility.

> 
> Tom you've probably read the QTR posts where QTR did the same... lowered
> the tested
> dmax after profile was built with linearization.

I had read them, but that has not happened with the curves I have created.

>

John

I'm still thinking about this media setting issue and your post below. Are
you stating that you don't use the S3P media setting check to select a
setting, you just print out a set of gray ramps? What about all the other
criteria the S3P help file gives for selecting the right setting? Does it
all boil down to selecting the right ink limit?

Tom

...

> 
> But out all the media settings UltraSmooth has the smoothest ramp (no
> reversals) from
> 100% to 90%, and that was my choice to build William Turner profiles with.
> 
...