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neutralizing monitor black point

neutralizing monitor black point

2008-02-19 by Randy L

Hello, I am running several 21 sony triniton crts and profiling with
S2pro. My RGB adjustments have 6 sliders, 3 for contrast and 3 for
brightness.  

I have always used the (RGB contrast) sliders only because they
represent the white point. But what about the blackpoint? I have to
set the blackpoint by eye, because on these old monitors the blacks
have a color cast that I can only remove with the sliders. 

Is there any provisions in S2pro for measuring the black point?

If not, why not?

Thanks!

Randy

Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-20 by Randy L

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy L" <rlphoto@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello, I am running several 21 sony triniton crts and profiling with
> S2pro. My RGB adjustments have 6 sliders, 3 for contrast and 3 for
> brightness.  
> 
> I have always used the (RGB contrast) sliders only because they
> represent the white point. But what about the blackpoint? I have to
> set the blackpoint by eye, because on these old monitors the blacks
> have a color cast that I can only remove with the sliders. 
> 
> Is there any provisions in S2pro for measuring the black point?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Randy
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-21 by CDTobie@aol.com

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy L" <rlphoto@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, I am running several 21 sony triniton crts and profiling with
> S2pro. My RGB adjustments have 6 sliders, 3 for contrast and 3 for
> brightness.

Three for gains and three of bias, in the most common terms...
>
> I have always used the (RGB contrast) sliders only because they
> represent the white point.

Right, those are the RGB Gains controls...

 But what about the blackpoint? I have to
> set the blackpoint by eye, because on these old monitors the blacks
> have a color cast that I can only remove with the sliders.
>
> Is there any provisions in S2pro for measuring the black point?

No...
>
> If not, why not?

It would certainaly be possible to add the feature, but given that 
newer displays don't have Bias controls, and there are vanishingly few 
displays still in use that do, its a tough item to get on the priority 
list...

C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/spyder3
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
http://webmail.aol.com

Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-22 by Randy L

Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards. 

So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?

And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any more?

Thanks for the help!

Randy


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy L" <rlphoto@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, I am running several 21 sony triniton crts and profiling with
> > S2pro. My RGB adjustments have 6 sliders, 3 for contrast and 3 for
> > brightness.
> 
> Three for gains and three of bias, in the most common terms...
> >
> > I have always used the (RGB contrast) sliders only because they
> > represent the white point.
> 
> Right, those are the RGB Gains controls...
> 
>  But what about the blackpoint? I have to
> > set the blackpoint by eye, because on these old monitors the blacks
> > have a color cast that I can only remove with the sliders.
> >
> > Is there any provisions in S2pro for measuring the black point?
> 
> No...
> >
> > If not, why not?
> 
> It would certainaly be possible to add the feature, but given that 
> newer displays don't have Bias controls, and there are vanishingly few 
> displays still in use that do, its a tough item to get on the priority 
> list...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> WW Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor
> CDTobie@...
> www.datacolor.com/spyder3
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
> http://webmail.aol.com
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-22 by CDTobie@aol.com

>>Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards.

Thanks, I'm in Tuscany (for Tuscany Photographic Workshops etc...) 
right now, which for me is the the biggest award of all.

>>So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?

Since we haven't implemented a 20% luminance version of our 100% 
luminance White Balance function, we don't really offer a tool for 
that. You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values 
that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit 
less convenient...

>>And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any 
more?

Most don't even provide white point adjustment anymore, its just the 
way the LCD market is going...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy L <rlphoto@...>
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:37 pm
Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. 
One for CD Tobie.






Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards.

So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?

And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any more?

Thanks for the help!

Randy


--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
>
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, "Randy L" <rlphoto@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, I am running several 21 sony triniton crts and profiling with
> > S2pro. My RGB adjustments have 6 sliders, 3 for contrast and 3 for
> > brightness.
>
> Three for gains and three of bias, in the most common terms...
> >
> > I have always used the (RGB contrast) sliders only because they
> > represent the white point.
>
> Right, those are the RGB Gains controls...
>
>  But what about the blackpoint? I have to
> > set the blackpoint by eye, because on these old monitors the blacks
> > have a color cast that I can only remove with the sliders.
> >
> > Is there any provisions in S2pro for measuring the black point?
>
> No...
> >
> > If not, why not?
>
> It would certainaly be possible to add the feature, but given that
> newer displays don't have Bias controls, and there are vanishingly 
few
> displays still in use that do, its a tough item to get on the 
priority
> list...
>
> C. David Tobie
> WW Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> Datacolor
> CDTobie@...
> www.datacolor.com/spyder3
> 
________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>





Yahoo! Groups Links







________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
http://webmail.aol.com

Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-26 by Randy L

Hi CD, I bet one of the great benefits of working for Colorvision is
getting to hang out in Europe a lot. Sure beats Maine this time of
year huh?


>You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values 
> that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit 
> less convenient...

Where can I get (easy) instructions on this technique? IF you can just
get me started I can figure out the rest.


Also when Spyder2 builds the profile does it color balance black point
automatically? Is is supposed to? My Blacks still have a cast on some
monitors after profiling.

Thanks for the help.

Randy






--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards.
> 
> Thanks, I'm in Tuscany (for Tuscany Photographic Workshops etc...) 
> right now, which for me is the the biggest award of all.
> 
> >>So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?
> 
> Since we haven't implemented a 20% luminance version of our 100% 
> luminance White Balance function, we don't really offer a tool for 
> that. You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values 
> that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit 
> less convenient...
> 
> >>And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any 
> more?
> 
> Most don't even provide white point adjustment anymore, its just the 
> way the LCD market is going...
> 
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-28 by CDTobie@aol.com

>>Hi CD, I bet one of the great benefits of working for Colorvision is
getting to hang out in Europe a lot. Sure beats Maine this time of
year huh?

Six times through customs in 10 days isn't quite a vacation... in fact, 
the third time through customs into Zurich in the same week, they 
decided to do a drug smuggler search on my briefcase... can't really 
blame them.


>You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> less convenient...

>>Where can I get (easy) instructions on this technique? IF you can just
get me started I can figure out the rest.

No directions available, just a suggestion for doing it yourself. 
Perhaps I can come up with some notes later... when I'm not sleep 
deprived.


>>Also when Spyder2 builds the profile does it color balance black point
automatically? Is is supposed to? My Blacks still have a cast on some
monitors after profiling.

First off, actual blacks don't have color casts. Its shadow tones that 
might, and we balance and neutralize the grays down to the dark end, 
which should, ideally, eliminate casts. Spyder3 offers more accuracy 
and more control in this, but Spyder2 should do a pretty good job of it 
on most display types.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Randy L <rlphoto@...>
To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 9:48 am
Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. 
One for CD Tobie.






Hi CD, I bet one of the great benefits of working for Colorvision is
getting to hang out in Europe a lot. Sure beats Maine this time of
year huh?


>You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> less convenient...

Where can I get (easy) instructions on this technique? IF you can just
get me started I can figure out the rest.


Also when Spyder2 builds the profile does it color balance black point
automatically? Is is supposed to? My Blacks still have a cast on some
monitors after profiling.

Thanks for the help.

Randy






--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> >>Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards.
>
> Thanks, I'm in Tuscany (for Tuscany Photographic Workshops etc...)
> right now, which for me is the the biggest award of all.
>
> >>So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?
>
> Since we haven't implemented a 20% luminance version of our 100%
> luminance White Balance function, we don't really offer a tool for
> that. You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> less convenient...
>
> >>And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any
> more?
>
> Most don't even provide white point adjustment anymore, its just the
> way the LCD market is going...
>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-28 by Randy L

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> >>Hi CD, I bet one of the great benefits of working for Colorvision is
> getting to hang out in Europe a lot. Sure beats Maine this time of
> year huh?
> 
> Six times through customs in 10 days isn't quite a vacation... in fact, 
> the third time through customs into Zurich in the same week, they 
> decided to do a drug smuggler search on my briefcase... can't really 
> blame them.
> 

I remember back in the days when I was a press photographer and got to
go to Pittsburgh steeler football games and shoot from the sidelines.
After a few times I had had enough of all the driving and parking
hassles not to mention getting back through it all in reverse to be
back at the paper for deadline, so I let somebody else go. People
thought I was crazy but some times traveling to fun places is not what
it looks like from the outside.  
> 
> >You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> > that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> > less convenient...
> 
> >>Where can I get (easy) instructions on this technique? IF you can just
> get me started I can figure out the rest.
> 
> No directions available, just a suggestion for doing it yourself. 
> Perhaps I can come up with some notes later... when I'm not sleep 
> deprived.


I understand.  Thanks for offering.

> 
> 
> >>Also when Spyder2 builds the profile does it color balance black point
> automatically? Is is supposed to? My Blacks still have a cast on some
> monitors after profiling.
> 
> First off, actual blacks don't have color casts. Its shadow tones that 
> might, and we balance and neutralize the grays down to the dark end, 
> which should, ideally, eliminate casts. Spyder3 offers more accuracy 
> and more control in this, but Spyder2 should do a pretty good job of it 
> on most display types.
> 

I guess that is what I mean, near blacks. Because of the age of these
monitors, (I have been buying decent 21" sony trinitons for $40 made
in the year 2001 and on that still look pretty good) The non
calibrated screen looks usually red. Especially on a tool bar monitor.
Even though spyder 2 does a stellar job of correcting that, I can see
a red cast in the near blacks that the profile is not getting. That is
what I want to correct. 

On another note, I spent way to much time yesterday trying to profile
and 19" NEC multisync CRT. The non calibrated screen looks great with
excellent brightness and contrast. I tried every which way possible to
calibrate it making about a dozen different profiles and what every
one kept coming out yellow and over saturated.

Any Known issues with NEC?

Thanks for the help!

Randy




 C. David Tobie
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision, Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy L <rlphoto@...>
> To: colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 9:48 am
> Subject: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. 
> One for CD Tobie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi CD, I bet one of the great benefits of working for Colorvision is
> getting to hang out in Europe a lot. Sure beats Maine this time of
> year huh?
> 
> 
> >You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> > that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> > less convenient...
> 
> Where can I get (easy) instructions on this technique? IF you can just
> get me started I can figure out the rest.
> 
> 
> Also when Spyder2 builds the profile does it color balance black point
> automatically? Is is supposed to? My Blacks still have a cast on some
> monitors after profiling.
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@ wrote:
> >
> > >>Hello CD and congrats on your recent awards.
> >
> > Thanks, I'm in Tuscany (for Tuscany Photographic Workshops etc...)
> > right now, which for me is the the biggest award of all.
> >
> > >>So can you offer any tips on neutralizing my black point?
> >
> > Since we haven't implemented a 20% luminance version of our 100%
> > luminance White Balance function, we don't really offer a tool for
> > that. You can use the colorimeter window and adjust from the values
> > that lists from near black patches defined there, though thats a bit
> > less convenient...
> >
> > >>And why don't the manufactures provide black point adjustment any
> > more?
> >
> > Most don't even provide white point adjustment anymore, its just the
> > way the LCD market is going...
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Re: [colorvision_group] Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-28 by CDTobie@aol.com

>>I spent way to much time yesterday trying to profile
and 19" NEC multisync CRT. The non calibrated screen looks great with
excellent brightness and contrast. I tried every which way possible to
calibrate it making about a dozen different profiles and what every
one kept coming out yellow and over saturated.

>>Any Known issues with NEC?

No, most CRTs are very well mannered, can't imagine what the issue is.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision, Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com

Re: neutralizing monitor black point .. One for CD Tobie.

2008-02-29 by Randy L

Turns out it was the video card. I just cant win with nvidia. I
installed an old ATI and everything straitened up.

Randy

--- In colorvision_group@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> >>I spent way to much time yesterday trying to profile
> and 19" NEC multisync CRT. The non calibrated screen looks great with
> excellent brightness and contrast. I tried every which way possible to
> calibrate it making about a dozen different profiles and what every
> one kept coming out yellow and over saturated.
> 
> >>Any Known issues with NEC?
> 
> No, most CRTs are very well mannered, can't imagine what the issue is.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision, Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
>

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