Datacolor User to User Support Group.

I am curious if there is a simple check to ensure the Spyder3 is working correctly.  I have the Spyder3Elite 3.0.7 release.  After building a profile and using it, I did a check using the Colorimeter option under tools and got the following for a RGB 255,255,255 setting:

Lab:  89.879,-2.658,-17.389
Kelvin: 6501, 0.044 dab
XYZ: 72.046, 76.042, 82.389

I am running on XP, with a dual monitor off a single graphics card but am concerned only with the primary monitor which is an EIZO CG222W.  Visually the color patch on the Colorimeter test screen has a definite color cast, at least visually.

I then ran the EIZO ColorNavigator software and calibrated the monitor to 6500K, 2.2 Gamma.  I opened Spyder3Elite and took another colorimter reading.  I got the following for the RGB 255,255,255:

Lab: 90.300, -0.767, -21.976
Kelvin: 6862, 0.162 dab
XYZ: 73.826, 76.953, 89.161

I then built a new profile using Spyder3Elite and checked again:

Lab: 89.908, -2.346, -17.855
Kelvin: 6528, 0.10 dab
XYZ: 72.255, 76.105, 83.055

My Spyder3Elite settings are:
LCD
Gamma 2,2
White Point: 6500K
Luminance Mode: visual
Black and White Luminance: na
Certify: no
Gray balanced calibrarion: on
Ambient light compensation: off


Does this look correct?  In the past when I asked about Spyder3Elite and the EIZO monitor/software, the suggestion was to use the EIZO software to adjust the monitor and then use the Spyder3 to build a profile based on that.

Thanks,
Rollin

Anyone have any suggestions on how to verify if the Spyder3 is working correctly?

On Aug 10, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Rollin wrote:

> Anyone have any suggestions on how to verify if the Spyder3 is  
> working correctly?

Run it on a non-problematic display, and review the SpyderProof images  
at the end of the process. Thats the best visual check available.  
Measurement-based checks require laboratory grade standards devices  
which cost a lot of money, so are not practical for end users.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

I have two monitors on the system running off a single video card and use the WinColor app to load the profiles.  One is the Eizo CG222W and the other is a Dell 1905FP.  The Dell is a simple backlit flat panel.  I use the Eizo as my main (color managed) screen for soft proofing under Photoshop and use the Dell as a secondary monitor to park the various tool menus under PS as it is not the best thing in the world for color managed applications.  

So, from mu perspective, there is no "non-problematic" monitor.  I just ran calibration using the Spyder3 software on both monitors and then took readings using the Spyder3 Colorimeter option under the Tools menu.

Dell
6567K
98.877L, -3.027a, -19.424b

Eizo
6534K
Lab = 89.805L, -2.7629a, -17.590b

Visually, the Eizo appears to have a green caste.  When I display the same image on both monitors, the Eizo loooks "warmer" and, if there is green in the image, it seems to really make it pop where as the Dell appears "cooler" and the blues look stronger on 

I find it hard to believe that a difference of 33 degrees Kelvin in color tempature can make that kind of difference.  I did check the luminance on the two and there is a major difference: The Eizo has 0.26 for black and 75.4 for white while the Dell has 0.37 and 96.5 respectively.

Something is not right but I have no idea at this point what it is or how to go about resolving it.  As it stands now, I have serious doubts about the Spyder3 software and/or colorimter. If I understand your response to my posts, there is no way I can really check the colorimeter except to try to decide if it is right by visually looking at some images and trying to decide if they are good or bad.

I do remember that there were other people on this forum that have an Eizo monitor.  I would be interested in any experiences they might share when it comes to getting the Eizo ColorNavigator and the DataColor Sypder3 (Elite) packages working together.  

Rollin

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:

>
> 
> On Aug 10, 2009, at 8:44 AM, Rollin wrote:
> 
> > Anyone have any suggestions on how to verify if the Spyder3 is  
> > working correctly?
> 
> Run it on a non-problematic display, and review the SpyderProof images  
> at the end of the process. Thats the best visual check available.  
> Measurement-based checks require laboratory grade standards devices  
> which cost a lot of money, so are not practical for end users.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>

> I do remember that there were other people on this forum that have an Eizo 
> monitor.  I would be interested in any experiences they might share when 
> it comes to getting the Eizo ColorNavigator and the DataColor Sypder3 
> (Elite) packages working together.

Which OS? ColorNavigator does not work with Win764 or Vista64 and a Spyder3.

Bob Frost.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rollin" <rhill3@...>

On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:52 PM, Rollin wrote:

> I have two monitors on the system running off a single video card  
> and use the WinColor app to load the profiles.  One is the Eizo  
> CG222W and the other is a Dell 1905FP.  The Dell is a simple backlit  
> flat panel.  I use the Eizo as my main (color managed) screen for  
> soft proofing under Photoshop and use the Dell as a secondary  
> monitor to park the various tool menus under PS as it is not the  
> best thing in the world for color managed applications.
>
> So, from mu perspective, there is no "non-problematic" monitor.  I  
> just ran calibration using the Spyder3 software on both monitors and  
> then took readings using the Spyder3 Colorimeter option under the  
> Tools menu.
>
> Dell
> 6567K
> 98.877L, -3.027a, -19.424b
>
> Eizo
> 6534K
> Lab = 89.805L, -2.7629a, -17.590b

Excellent match for whitepoint, a* and b*; L* is the one thats off. Be  
sure to use the Colorimeter window while at the SpyderProof screen;  
toggle calibration on and off, and measure both ways, to see what the  
native color is, and what you get once the calibration is loaded.
>
> Visually, the Eizo appears to have a green caste.  When I display  
> the same image on both monitors, the Eizo loooks "warmer" and, if  
> there is green in the image, it seems to really make it pop where as  
> the Dell appears "cooler" and the blues look stronger on
>
> I find it hard to believe that a difference of 33 degrees Kelvin in  
> color tempature can make that kind of difference.

It can't. Its most likely a luminance difference, or a calibration  
issue. Are you sure that each display is getting the proper  
calibration loaded, not just one calibration loaded to both displays?

>  I did check the luminance on the two and there is a major  
> difference: The Eizo has 0.26 for black and 75.4 for white while the  
> Dell has 0.37 and 96.5 respectively.

You problaby don't want to weaken your Eizo black to match hour Dell  
(if you even have a control to do so), but you definately want to get  
the white luminances closer...
>
> Something is not right but I have no idea at this point what it is  
> or how to go about resolving it.  As it stands now, I have serious  
> doubts about the Spyder3 software and/or colorimter. If I understand  
> your response to my posts, there is no way I can really check the  
> colorimeter except to try to decide if it is right by visually  
> looking at some images and trying to decide if they are good or bad.

Start by matching the white luminances, then move on to checking the  
Colorimeter results again with calibration on and off.
>
> I do remember that there were other people on this forum that have  
> an Eizo monitor.  I would be interested in any experiences they  
> might share when it comes to getting the Eizo ColorNavigator and the  
> DataColor Sypder3 (Elite) packages working together.

If you have your Eizo set to an appropriate gamma and whitepoint in  
advance, then calibrating it on top of that with Spyder3 should be fine.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:52 PM, Rollin wrote:

> I have two monitors on the system running off a single video card  
> and use the WinColor app to load the profiles. One is the Eizo  
> CG222W and the other is a Dell 1905FP. The Dell is a simple backlit  
> flat panel. I use the Eizo as my main (color managed) screen for  
> soft proofing under Photoshop and use the Dell as a secondary  
> monitor to park the various tool menus under PS as it is not the  
> best thing in the world for color managed applications.
>
> So, from mu perspective, there is no "non-problematic" monitor. I  
> just ran calibration using the Spyder3 software on both monitors  
> and then took readings using the Spyder3 Colorimeter option under  
> the Tools menu.
>
> Dell
> 6567K
> 98.877L, -3.027a, -19.424b
>
> Eizo
> 6534K
> Lab = 89.805L, -2.7629a, -17.590b
>
> Visually, the Eizo appears to have a green caste. When I display  
> the same image on both monitors, the Eizo loooks "warmer" and, if  
> there is green in the image, it seems to really make it pop where  
> as the Dell appears "cooler" and the blues look stronger on
> .
>
> Thanks for the tip on the tools menu.  I never used that.  I took a  
> look at my calibration and got Lab
L=106.945
a=-2.245
b=-21.070
and
K=6529

This is on a MacBook Pro set at 6500K and 2.2G.  I can't comment on  
the a & b values; they seem to be close to yours.  However, your L  
values seems to be very low, especially for the Eizo.

Shouldn't pure white be a=b=0?  < 5 seems like it ought to be okay,  
but 20 seems to be pretty high.

I normally run at 5400K because it matched my printer better.  On  
that I got:
L=103.955
a=-1.910
b=-6.921
and
K=5473

For other temperatures, a seems to stay around -2, but b grows:
   -2 @ 5400
-13 @ 5800
-18 @ 6200
-21 @ 6500
I have no idea what that means, if anything.
>

Oops!!  that should have been -6 @ 5400, not -2.

Also, for some reason, that first L value was on a new line when I  
wrote it but got appended to th previous line in processing.

On Aug 10, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Robert Peirce wrote:

> Thanks for the tip on the tools menu.  I never used that.  I took a  
> look at my calibration and got LabL=106.945
> a=-2.245
> b=-21.070
> and
> K=6529
>
> This is on a MacBook Pro set at 6500K and 2.2G.  I can't comment on  
> the a & b values; they seem to be close to yours.  However, your L  
> values seems to be very low, especially for the Eizo.

Eizo's run dimmer than most other displays, as they are intended for  
low light matching for serious work.
>
> Shouldn't pure white be a=b=0?  < 5 seems like it oug ht to be okay,  
> but 20 seems to be pretty high.

In this case Luminance really means Candelas/MeterSquared, so values  
well above 100 are common; values above 300 are possible, but  
certainly are not recommended for color managed work.
>
> I normally run at 5400K because it matched my printer better.  On  
> that I got:
> L=103.955
> a=-1.910
> b=-6.921
> and
> K=5473

Correct; slight luminance drop from the channel corrections, and a  
change in b*; thats what a lower color temperature means: less blue.
>
> For other temperatures, a seems to stay around -2, but b grows:
>   -2 @ 5400
> -13 @ 5800
> -18 @ 6200
> -21 @ 6500
> I have no idea what that means, if anything.

It means you are making your screen less blue, which is what dropping  
the color temp does.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3

A followup to my original post concerning Spyder3 and the Eizo monitor.  In the past, I had received emails regarding similar posts for people who basically said do not run both the Eizo Navigator and the Spyder3 software together.  I recently got an off line email from someone with a similar setup indicating the same.  Here is what I have done on my system (Win XP 32 bit, Eizo CG222W, Dell FP1905, one graphics card):

1. I uninstalled the Spyder3 Elite software package.
2. Reinstalled Eizo Color Navigator to ensure I was using a Spyder3 Colorimeter driver from them.
3. Unistalled the Windows Color Applet that let me assign different profiles to the two monitors running off the same graphics card.
4. Reran the Eizo Color Navigator to ensure the profile was built after all the changes.
5. Checked the Windows definition to ensure it was pointed to the correct profile.

I then used Photoshop to view some images I have printed using softproof mode to look at the image on the monitor vs the one on paper.  I found that the monitor image was too dark.  I was using the suggested 80 cd/m2 brightness (at 6500K, 2.2 gamma).  My work space is not really dark so I decided to bump the brightness to 100 cd/m2.  This seems to do the trick but only time will tell as I work on images and use softproof to determine what it will look like printed.  (For what is is worth, I use a matte paper with no brightners and custom profiles built using Printfix Pro.)

As for the second monitor off the single graphics card, I manually tweak its settings using the hardware controls on it to get it to an acceptable image.  It is a cheap flat panel and I use it only as the overflow monitor to park PS tool pallets, etc. on when working on the image.  Windows (at least through XP level) is not really great at supporting multiple color managed monitors off a single card.  I can either get a second graphics card or live with it as it is.

At some point, I may try reinstalling Spyder3 Elite to see if I can fine tune the Eizo but at the moment, I like what I have using the colorimeter and the Eizo software.  Part of the problem may be trying to control the order in what adjustments are applied to the monitor when there are multiple programs involved.

Rollin

On Aug 17, 2009, at 11:30 AM, Rollin wrote:

> A followup to my original post concerning Spyder3 and the Eizo  
> monitor.  In the past, I had received emails regarding similar posts  
> for people who basically said do not run both the Eizo Navigator and  
> the Spyder3 software together.  I recently got an off line email  
> from someone with a similar setup indicating the same.  Here is what  
> I have done on my system (Win XP 32 bit, Eizo CG222W, Dell FP1905,  
> one graphics card):
>
> 1. I uninstalled the Spyder3 Elite software package.
> 2. Reinstalled Eizo Color Navigator to ensure I was using a Spyder3  
> Colorimeter driver from them.
> 3. Unistalled the Windows Color Applet that let me assign different  
> profiles to the two monitors running off the same graphics card.
> 4. Reran the Eizo Color Navigator to ensure the profile was built  
> after all the changes.
> 5. Checked the Windows definition to ensure it was pointed to the  
> correct profile.
>
> I then used Photoshop to view some images I have printed using  
> softproof mode to look at the image on the monitor vs the one on  
> paper.  I found that the monitor image was too dark.  I was using  
> the suggested 80 cd/m2 brightness (at 6500K, 2.2 gamma).  My work  
> space is not really dark so I decided to bump the brightness to 100  
> cd/m2.  This seems to do the trick but only time will tell as I work  
> on images and use softproof to determine what it will look like  
> printed.  (For what is is worth, I use a matte paper with no  
> brightners and custom profiles built using Printfix Pro.)
>
> As for the second monitor off the single graphics card, I manually  
> tweak its settings using the hardware controls on it to get it to an  
> acceptable image.  It is a cheap flat panel and I use it only as the  
> overflow monitor to park PS tool pallets, etc. on when working on  
> the image.  Windows (at least through XP level) is not really great  
> at supporting multiple color managed monitors off a single card.  I  
> can either get a second graphics card or live with it as it is.
>
> At some point, I may try reinstalling Spyder3 Elite to see if I can  
> fine tune the Eizo but at the moment, I like what I have using the  
> colorimeter and the Eizo software.  Part of the problem may be  
> trying to control the order in what adjustments are applied to the  
> monitor when there are multiple programs involved.

You may be making this unduely complicated. On the Mac you can assign  
profiles at the OS level, and no utility to load the related LUTs is  
needed, so for Mac users, its definately easy to profile one display  
with Spyder3Elite or Pro, and then shut off the startup item if it  
concerns them. The problem under Windows is that a Utility of some  
kind must load the LUTs for each display, and the Eizo software won't  
do that for your second display (actually it may not do it for your  
Eizo either, in that it makes its LUT corrections internally in the  
display, not flashed to the LUT). Personally I cover this by  
calibrating both my Eizo and my Apple 30" Cinema display with  
Spyder3Elite, but it should be possible to mix the two packages is you  
prefer; or use ColorEyes on both displays with the Spyder3, to control  
the Eizo internally, and the other display at the videocard level.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie <CDTobie@...> wrote:
> You may be making this unduely complicated. On the Mac you can assign  
> profiles at the OS level, and no utility to load the related LUTs is  
> needed, so for Mac users, its definately easy to profile one display  
> with Spyder3Elite or Pro, and then shut off the startup item if it  
> concerns them. The problem under Windows is that a Utility of some  
> kind must load the LUTs for each display, and the Eizo software won't  
> do that for your second display (actually it may not do it for your  
> Eizo either, in that it makes its LUT corrections internally in the  
> display, not flashed to the LUT). Personally I cover this by  
> calibrating both my Eizo and my Apple 30" Cinema display with  
> Spyder3Elite, but it should be possible to mix the two packages is you  
> prefer; or use ColorEyes on both displays with the Spyder3, to control  
> the Eizo internally, and the other display at the videocard level.

The profile created by the Eizo Color Navigator software is being loaded during the boot sequence.  I can visually see the effect when it loads.  I checked the monitor properties (right click desktop, properties, advanced, color management) and the one I built (and named for 100cd/m2) is the assigned profile.  

Mac does a much better job then Windows when it comes to color management.  I run a Win XP machine so have to live with it.  I may look at ColorEyes, again.  I tried it in demo mode before removing all of the Eizo/Datacolor software and it basically hammered my color settings - I ended up with both monitors really messed up. It took me considerable time to get all of the software off and then reinstalled plus reprofiling to get it back to something usable. I am not sure what went wrong as the demo installed with no problems but something was not right.  I wiil probably try it once more now that I have reconfigured the system but they may not let me since I installed the demo once.  Besides, I would like to concentrate on using my system for a bit not debugging it.

I do appreciate all of the comments and suggestions that you and others have made.

Rollin

> Mac does a much better job then Windows when it comes to color management.

Not according to some Mac Experts!

Bob Frost

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rollin" <rhill3@...>

David!

Out of curiosity - do you know if ColorEyes and basICColor display is the "same" software "internally".  I recall a discussion from some time ago, which claimed that ColorEyes uses basICColor's engine with a different user interface.    

(I use my spyder3 with basICColor purely because of convenience - it can drive my two NEC 1990sxi internally - look, ma, no hands. I find that I reprofile my monitors more often as I should, and even willingly :)  

Didzis 


 it should be possible to mix the two packages is you  

> prefer; or use ColorEyes on both displays with the Spyder3, to control  
> the Eizo internally, and the other display at the videocard level.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> 
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>

On Aug 17, 2009, at 3:54 PM, dizpark wrote:

> David!
>
> Out of curiosity - do you know if ColorEyes and basICColor display  
> is the "same" software "internally".  I recall a discussion from  
> some time ago, which claimed that ColorEyes uses basICColor's engine  
> with a different user interface.
>
> (I use my spyder3 with basICColor purely because of convenience - it  
> can drive my two NEC 1990sxi internally - look, ma, no hands. I find  
> that I reprofile my monitors more often as I should, and even  
> willingly :)

At one time they were both based on the same ICS codebase. Over the  
last couple of years they have diverged increasingly, as development  
of basICColor has moved to Germany while ColorEyes continues to be  
developed in the US.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...