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softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by johnlill2

Hello,

I have recently purchased a Spyder3Print SR and am THRILLED with the results. One small complaint - when I create a profile and then check the "SoftProof" option on the "Preview & make optional adjustments" screen, the sample looks VERY washed out. When I softproof the image in either Photoshop or Qimage, it looks like the actual printed image. So I guess it's not a big deal since the profile works very well when actually printing. However, I would like to use SoftProofing in the Spyder software so that I can tweak the profile based on the softproof, although I have not had the need to do that yet. I'm just curious if others have experienced this. I have the same result for all 4 paper/ink/printer combinations that I have profiled, and have tried both Perceptual and Relative Colormetric rendering intents. I have a calibrated and profiled monitor (Spyder 3 Elite) and am running Win XP. Any ideas? 

Thanks!
John L

Re: [datacolor_group] softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by C D Tobie

On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:29 PM, johnlill2 wrote:

> I have recently purchased a Spyder3Print SR and am THRILLED with the results. One small complaint - when I create a profile and then check the "SoftProof" option on the "Preview & make optional adjustments" screen, the sample looks VERY washed out. When I softproof the image in either Photoshop or Qimage, it looks like the actual printed image. So I guess it's not a big deal since the profile works very well when actually printing. However, I would like to use SoftProofing in the Spyder software so that I can tweak the profile based on the softproof, although I have not had the need to do that yet. I'm just curious if others have experienced this. I have the same result for all 4 paper/ink/printer combinations that I have profiled, and have tried both Perceptual and Relative Colormetric rendering intents. I have a calibrated and profiled monitor (Spyder 3 Elite) and am running Win XP. Any ideas? 

What you are seeing is the ink black and paper white simulations that are automatically part of our preview (after all, the tone of the paper and how dark the ink is, is part of what you are softproofing). Check the equivalent features in Photoshop's softproof view and the result will be similar. But people get scared by what they see and turn those features off. Not ideal.

It can be disturbing is to see just how weak your black ink looks softproofed to a matte art paper (where the L* is about 20, as opposed to under 5 on a good gloss media). Thats in part because the display's black is not an absolute black, so softproofing "up" from there is weaker than what you see in the proofing box. But that varies with each paper, and the answer is not to turn ink black softproofing off, but to tune it to match your visual result (which will vary with your proofing setup, lighting angle, whether you proof behind glass to simulate a framed image, etc). There are controls for adjusting the softproof's black in the upper right of the profile adjustment screen to a different L* value. There is even a preset that will make a precalculated correction for blacks, but you may want to custom tune your own correction. That way, instead of abandoning the advantages of ink black emulation, you can tune them to get the most accurate possible softproof. 

Much of this also applies to paper white, though the usual issue there is the degree of whitener in your paper, and the degree of UV in your light source. Tuning the white proof to a different b* value controls that, and again, there is a preset available that may help, but you may want to custom tune for the best match, since we can't estimate in advance how your paper will interact with your lighting.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie

Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by johnlill2

Thanks, David, for the fast reply. When I softproof in Photoshop, I select the new profile and check "show paper white". It is an excellent preview of the actual print. However, within the Spyder software (version 4.2.1) the softproof is very washed out. However, the print looks just like it does when printed in Photoshop. Only the softproof is drastically different. Obviously, I am way more concerned that the softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, and they are. As it is, the softproof in the Spyder software is not even close for both matte & luster papers. Any other ideas?

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:29 PM, johnlill2 wrote:
>
> > I have recently purchased a Spyder3Print SR and am THRILLED with the results. One small complaint - when I create a profile and then check the "SoftProof" option on the "Preview & make optional adjustments" screen, the sample looks VERY washed out. When I softproof the image in either Photoshop or Qimage, it looks like the actual printed image. So I guess it's not a big deal since the profile works very well when actually printing. However, I would like to use SoftProofing in the Spyder software so that I can tweak the profile based on the softproof, although I have not had the need to do that yet. I'm just curious if others have experienced this. I have the same result for all 4 paper/ink/printer combinations that I have profiled, and have tried both Perceptual and Relative Colormetric rendering intents. I have a calibrated and profiled monitor (Spyder 3 Elite) and am running Win XP. Any ideas?
>;
> What you are seeing is the ink black and paper white simulations that are automatically part of our preview (after all, the tone of the paper and how dark the ink is, is part of what you are softproofing). Check the equivalent features in Photoshop's softproof view and the result will be similar. But people get scared by what they see and turn those features off. Not ideal.
>
> It can be disturbing is to see just how weak your black ink looks softproofed to a matte art paper (where the L* is about 20, as opposed to under 5 on a good gloss media). Thats in part because the display's black is not an absolute black, so softproofing "up" from there is weaker than what you see in the proofing box. But that varies with each paper, and the answer is not to turn ink black softproofing off, but to tune it to match your visual result (which will vary with your proofing setup, lighting angle, whether you proof behind glass to simulate a framed image, etc). There are controls for adjusting the softproof's black in the upper right of the profile adjustment screen to a different L* value. There is even a preset that will make a precalculated correction for blacks, but you may want to custom tune your own correction. That way, instead of abandoning the advantages of ink black emulation, you can tune them to get the most accurate possible softproof.
>
> Much of this also applies to paper white, though the usual issue there is the degree of whitener in your paper, and the degree of UV in your light source. Tuning the white proof to a different b* value controls that, and again, there is a preset available that may help, but you may want to custom tune for the best match, since we can't estimate in advance how your paper will interact with your lighting.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
>
>
> Datacolor
> 5 Princess Road
> Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
> 609.924.2189
> www.datacolor.com
>
> Phone: 207.685.9248
> Mobile: 207.312.0448
> Fax: 207.685.4455
> Email: cdtobie@...
> Skype: cdtobie
>

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by C D Tobie

On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:52 PM, johnlill2 wrote:

> Thanks, David, for the fast reply. When I softproof in Photoshop, I select the new profile and check "show paper white". It is an excellent preview of the actual print. However, within the Spyder software (version 4.2.1) the softproof is very washed out. However, the print looks just like it does when printed in Photoshop. Only the softproof is drastically different.  Obviously, I am way more concerned that the softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, and they are.  As it is, the softproof in the Spyder software is not even close for both matte & luster papers. Any other ideas? 

Well, simulate paper color in Phothoshop automatically checks simulate ink black, so you are getting both when you check that. If its way off for your gloss prints, thats a different issue, as there is much less differential there. No idea what would be causing that, but it should still be editable by choosing your original measurement set, and changing the softproof black's L* value in the Print software, and building a new version of the profile.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@...
Skype: cdtobie

Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by johnlill2

Thanks again, David. Maybe I was not clear. The problem is not that I want to edit these particular profiles. If I print from Photoshop I am getting great results and I'm happy with the profile created by the Spyder software. My problem is that the softproof in the Datacolor software is very faded so it is useless to see if I want to tweak it. Since softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, I can just use that to see if I want to tweak anything. I cannot do that within the Spyder software since the softproof is not even close to the actual print. I did print the test image from within the Spyder software and has MUCH deeper blacks that the softproof shows. It looks just like the softproof from Photoshop and Qimage.

This is definitely not a show-stopper for me since I am satisfied with the generated profiles without any tweaking. I just expected the softproof to be accurate, and it is not even close. I'm assuming that I am doing something wrong but I have no idea what!

John L

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, C D Tobie ; wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 3:52 PM, johnlill2 wrote:
>
> > Thanks, David, for the fast reply. When I softproof in Photoshop, I select the new profile and check "show paper white". It is an excellent preview of the actual print. However, within the Spyder software (version 4.2.1) the softproof is very washed out. However, the print looks just like it does when printed in Photoshop. Only the softproof is drastically different. Obviously, I am way more concerned that the softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, and they are. As it is, the softproof in the Spyder software is not even close for both matte & luster papers. Any other ideas?
>
> Well, simulate paper color in Phothoshop automatically checks simulate ink black, so you are getting both when you check that. If its way off for your gloss prints, thats a different issue, as there is much less differential there. No idea what would be causing that, but it should still be editable by choosing your original measurement set, and changing the softproof black's L* value in the Print software, and building a new version of the profile.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
>
>
> Datacolor
> 5 Princess Road
> Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
> 609.924.2189
> www.datacolor.com
>
> Phone: 207.685.9248
> Mobile: 207.312.0448
> Fax: 207.685.4455
> Email: cdtobie@...
> Skype: cdtobie
>

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by David Miller

On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:13 PM, johnlill2 wrote:

> Thanks again, David. Maybe I was not clear. The problem is not that I want to edit these particular profiles. If I print from Photoshop I am getting great results and I'm happy with the profile created by the Spyder software. My problem is that the softproof in the Datacolor software is very faded so it is useless to see if I want to tweak it. Since softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, I can just use that to see if I want to tweak anything. I cannot do that within the Spyder software since the softproof is not even close to the actual print. I did print the test image from within the Spyder software and has MUCH deeper blacks that the softproof shows. It looks just like the softproof from Photoshop and Qimage.
> 
> 
> This is definitely not a show-stopper for me since I am satisfied with the generated profiles without any tweaking. I just expected the softproof to be accurate, and it is not even close. I'm assuming that I am doing something wrong but I have no idea what!
> 

John:

Spyder3Print's softproof is accurate, in that it gives you the same softproof that Photoshop
gives you when Photoshop's paper white and black ink simulation are turned on.

Spyder3Print doesn't, as of this writing, have the ability to turn OFF those features the way
that Photoshop does. That's the difference. It's not a question of accuracy, it's a question
of "features" that are available in the softproof.

Spyder3Print's softproofing isn't intended to be a replacement for Photoshop's softproofing.
S3P is a profile building application, not a fully-featured softproofing application.

David Miller
Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
Datacolor

Re: [datacolor_group] Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by C D Tobie

On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:13 PM, johnlill2 wrote:

> My problem is that the softproof in the Datacolor software is very faded so it is useless to see if I want to tweak it. Since softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, I can just use that to see if I want to tweak anything.

In my experience softproof in Print, and softproof in Photoshop are nearly identical: if the paper white and ink black checkboxes are checked in Photoshop. I can't imagine any reason why the softproof would be different for you between the two, given the proper settings in Photoshop (there are not settings in Print). The display profile is used by both apps. The print profile is used similarly by both apps, at those settings. Its a mystery. Can you email me (to address below) a zipped profile that shows this differential, so I can compare it on my end, and a zipped measurement set from which that profile was made?

thanks,
C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager


Datacolor
5 Princess Road
Lawrenceville, NJ 08648, USA
609.924.2189
www.datacolor.com

Phone: 207.685.9248
Mobile: 207.312.0448
Fax: 207.685.4455
Email:  cdtobie@datacolor.com
Skype: cdtobie

Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-08-23 by johnlill2

Thanks. I must be doing something wrong because the softproof in Spyder3Print is NOT accurate for the profiles that I built with it. When I use those profiles in Photoshop with "show paper white" selected, it looks like the print. If I print the test image in Spyder3Print, the print looks the same as when I printed the same image in Photoshop. But it does NOT look like the softproof. As I said, since I have not had the need to tweak the profiles, it really does not matter, since the Photoshop softproof IS accurate. I am just curious as to why it is not accurate in Spyder3Print.

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:13 PM, johnlill2 wrote:
> 
> > Thanks again, David. Maybe I was not clear. The problem is not that I want to edit these particular profiles. If I print from Photoshop I am getting great results and I'm happy with the profile created by the Spyder software. My problem is that the softproof in the Datacolor software is very faded so it is useless to see if I want to tweak it. Since softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, I can just use that to see if I want to tweak anything. I cannot do that within the Spyder software since the softproof is not even close to the actual print. I did print the test image from within the Spyder software and has MUCH deeper blacks that the softproof shows. It looks just like the softproof from Photoshop and Qimage.
> > 
> > 
> > This is definitely not a show-stopper for me since I am satisfied with the generated profiles without any tweaking. I just expected the softproof to be accurate, and it is not even close. I'm assuming that I am doing something wrong but I have no idea what!
> > 
> 
> John:
> 
> Spyder3Print's softproof is accurate, in that it gives you the same softproof that Photoshop
> gives you when Photoshop's paper white and black ink simulation are turned on.
> 
> Spyder3Print doesn't, as of this writing, have the ability to turn OFF those features the way
> that Photoshop does. That's the difference. It's not a question of accuracy, it's a question
> of "features" that are available in the softproof.
> 
> Spyder3Print's softproofing isn't intended to be a replacement for Photoshop's softproofing.
> S3P is a profile building application, not a fully-featured softproofing application.
> 
> David Miller
> Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> Datacolor
>

RESOLVED Re: softproof in Spyder3Print SR way off

2011-09-02 by johnlill2

David & C. David,

I uninstalled and reinstalled the software and now the softproof in Spyder3Print DOES match the softproof in Photoshop. Strange, isn't it? 

Anyway, thanks for your help. After profiling my papers, I am getting the best prints I ever have!

John L

--- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, "johnlill2" <johnlill2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks. I must be doing something wrong because the softproof in Spyder3Print is NOT accurate for the profiles that I built with it. When I use those profiles in Photoshop with "show paper white" selected, it looks like the print. If I print the test image in Spyder3Print, the print looks the same as when I printed the same image in Photoshop. But it does NOT look like the softproof. As I said, since I have not had the need to tweak the profiles, it really does not matter, since the Photoshop softproof IS accurate. I am just curious as to why it is not accurate in Spyder3Print.
> 
> --- In datacolor_group@yahoogroups.com, David Miller <dm2363@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Aug 23, 2011, at 4:13 PM, johnlill2 wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks again, David. Maybe I was not clear. The problem is not that I want to edit these particular profiles. If I print from Photoshop I am getting great results and I'm happy with the profile created by the Spyder software. My problem is that the softproof in the Datacolor software is very faded so it is useless to see if I want to tweak it. Since softproof in Photoshop & Qimage are accurate, I can just use that to see if I want to tweak anything. I cannot do that within the Spyder software since the softproof is not even close to the actual print. I did print the test image from within the Spyder software and has MUCH deeper blacks that the softproof shows. It looks just like the softproof from Photoshop and Qimage.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This is definitely not a show-stopper for me since I am satisfied with the generated profiles without any tweaking. I just expected the softproof to be accurate, and it is not even close. I'm assuming that I am doing something wrong but I have no idea what!
> > > 
> > 
> > John:
> > 
> > Spyder3Print's softproof is accurate, in that it gives you the same softproof that Photoshop
> > gives you when Photoshop's paper white and black ink simulation are turned on.
> > 
> > Spyder3Print doesn't, as of this writing, have the ability to turn OFF those features the way
> > that Photoshop does. That's the difference. It's not a question of accuracy, it's a question
> > of "features" that are available in the softproof.
> > 
> > Spyder3Print's softproofing isn't intended to be a replacement for Photoshop's softproofing.
> > S3P is a profile building application, not a fully-featured softproofing application.
> > 
> > David Miller
> > Senior Software Developer, Digital Color Solutions
> > Datacolor
> >
>

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