Disklavier

I find everything KC says here to be true, and it has been my only real
disappointment with the DKC-850 upgrade to my DC3 PRO.  I have been hoping
that Yamaha would eventually upgrade the software to allow the DKC-850 to
use the enhanced range of the PRO hardware via XP level recording/playback,
but someone posted that they had been told there was a hardware limitation
of the DKC-850 that meant this would never happen.  I find that quite sad,
as the difference in listening to XP level recordings in full resolution is
significant as KC indicated.  
 
Sadder yet is that we will never likely know if there really is a hardware
limitation or just a lack of desire to deal with the software work involved,
which leads to the only other real disappointment I have had with Yamaha and
upgrades.
 
That disappointment with what is otherwise a totally great upgrade is that
Yamaha won't issue an upgrade that enables the E3 iPhone app on the DKC-850.
Since you can load E3 software on the DKC-850 hardware and it works, there
is no hardware reason for this, only lack of software effort.  In a similar
vane, I find their "closed shop" software mentality with regards to giving
Kevin the small amount of "secret" info needed for him to enable DKVBrowser
to work on the E3 short sighted as well.  I understand their desire not to
lose control of what is now really just a bunch of apps on LINUX, but it is
sad to have to deal with this outlook as long as DKV owners have had to.
 
I do want to say that my DC3 Pro piano has been a joy on more levels than I
know how to express.  My 11 years with it have brought me great
satisfaction, along with just a few moments of knowing how it could be so
much better "if only Yamaha would...".  One of my biggest prayers was
answered with the DKC-850 upgrade, and I don't want what I say here to
undermine my thanks for that. But it is SO CLOSE to being truly great, and
there appears to be no interest from Yamaha in making it so, and a
resistance to allowing others who would do so the access they need.  This
reminds me of the computer software business circa 1995, and even Microsoft
eventually got the message on that one...
 
Phil

  _____  

From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of kassey22000
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:45 PM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Pro vs Pro upgrade options


  

Thank you George, this has been very helpful. 

One of the Disklavier Techs suggested that if I don't want to loose the
ability of the Pro playback and recording detail that I should install the
DKC-850 unit as an "add-on" not as a "replacement" controller. Apparently
the 850 strips out XP data from Pro recordings so the full dynamics of the
Pro's advance solenoid and recording functions are lost. 

I did a test by playing some very technical classical songs from a PRO-XP
sampler disk on the DC5-PRO with the 850 hooked up as the master controller
and the MKIIXG unit disconnected. 

Then I followed the instructions in the DKC-850 manual and hooked up the old
controller with the 850 as the slave with Midi cables and played the
identical music stored on the MK-IIXGs internal memory. 
It seems obvious to my ears and eyes that the identical piece was much more
precise and sounded fantastic! 

In addition, I'm able to use all of the internal voices from the MKIIXG out
to my amplifier. 

The downsides to this arrangement are:
1. I now have 2 controllers hooked up which require additional unsightly
cables and very different looking units taking up a lot of space. 
2. Internet Radio will not function in this configuration, however my
wireless internet, and PC2Piano all seem to be functioning normally.
I don't think I'd get a lot of use out of the DRadio service anyway. 
3. The remote can signal both controllers at once so you have to tape up the
old Controller and it cannot be controlled with the iPhone 4 app (which btw
is a FANTASTIC app..I love it!!).

I'd be very grateful if anyone else has had experience with these
configurations and what they have found missing or discovered. 

Thanks KC
--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> ,
George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro
and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious,
back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records
pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a
scale of 0-255.
> 
> You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with
a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:
> 
> --Playback of XP Data
> The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP
data.)
> 
> --Sending XP Data On/Off
> The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data
for silent notes.
> 
> --Receiving XP Data On/Off
> The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850
responds to that kind of data.
> 
> --Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
> This option is gone.
> 
> --MIDI Thru2
> This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an
external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms
delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option
is gone.
> 
> --Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
> The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either
Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the
old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out
the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units,
however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you
turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.
> 
> --Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
> When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while
layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.
> 
> --MIDI Input Choice
> The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark
II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play
any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This
feature is not present on the DKC-850.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:
> 
> > Helo, 
> > Great explanation. 
> > 
> > How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback
resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark
IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons? 
> > 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com>
, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > > 
> > > This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on
playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI
velocities.
> > > 
> > > Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of
playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent
Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in
between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current
E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to
the early model instruments.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > > 
> > > www.georgelitterst.com
> > > www.timewarptech.com
> > > www.zenph.com
> > > 
> > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> > > 
> > > > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play
the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you
have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap
them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You
will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the
software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the
piano wants.
> > > > midimod2 is on the following page:
http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > > > 
> > > > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity
ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume.
However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are
almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90
and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and
notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for
30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi
music from the web.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> 
> > > >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> , "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with
a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a
1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993
firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate
control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80
according to the service manul I found on the web.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the
downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano
seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the
midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud.
Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems
were played at same volume.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and
forcefully.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and
volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Appreciate any info.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Cheers
> > > >> >
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > > > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > > > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > > > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > > > Spencer@
> > > > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > > > (707) 984-8356 
> > > > (425) 791-0309
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>