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1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by jboxnz

Hi,

We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.

I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.

However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.

Is this normal for it or something wrong?

I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.

Appreciate any info.

Cheers

Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by jboxnz

Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).

It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.

Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi,
> 
> We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> 
> I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> 
> However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> 
> Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> 
> I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> 
> Appreciate any info.
> 
> Cheers
>

Re: [disklavier] 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by George Frederick Litterst

Good morning, everyone.

I don't know anything about this particular Disklavier, but I can say that those very early models did not respond to controller 7 (volume) and controller 11 (expression) messages. Therefore, any differences in loudness are a result of note-on velocity.

If you MIDI files have a noticeable range of note-on velocities but you hear no difference in the resulting sound, it may be time to have your piano calibrated.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 8, 2011, at 10:12 PM, jboxnz wrote:

Hi,

We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.

I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.

However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.

Is this normal for it or something wrong?

I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.

Appreciate any info.

Cheers


Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by Spencer chase

the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html

On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).

It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.

Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
>
> I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
>
> However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
>
> Is this normal for it or something wrong?
>
> I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
>
> Appreciate any info.
>
> Cheers
>


-- 
Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(707) 984-8356 
(425) 791-0309

Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by George Frederick Litterst

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.

Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:

the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html

On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:

Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).

It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.

Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
>
> I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
>
> However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
>
> Is this normal for it or something wrong?
>
> I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
>
> Appreciate any info.
>;
> Cheers
>


-- 
Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(707) 984-8356 
(425) 791-0309


Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by kassey22000

Helo, 
Great explanation.  

How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution and dynamic range?  And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons?  

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
> 
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
> 
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional  0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> 
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127,     you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > 
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > 
> >>  
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >> 
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >> 
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >> 
> >> Cheers
> >> 
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> > 
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> > 
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >> > 
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> > 
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> > 
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> > 
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> > 
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > (707) 984-8356 
> > (425) 791-0309
> > 
> >
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-09 by Mark Fontana

George, it still remains the case that the effective "typical" velocity 
range of a Disklavier (ALL past and current models) is compressed into 
the MIDI velocity range of approximately 30-95, correct?  Otherwise, 
Yamaha would need to release different versions of their music diskettes 
for different models.

The difference on newer models is that levels 95+ continue to get a 
little louder and levels below 30 continue to get a little softer (to 
some point), but the core range of 30-95 is intended to produce roughly 
the same dynamic range in decibels across instruments.  Right?

My understanding is that XP enhancement just adds more incremental steps 
along this existing curve.

It would be great if Yamaha could develop some guidelines for content 
creators (tips for ensuring consistent performance across Disklavier 
models, particularly regarding note velocities and pedaling).

I'm not aware of any such documentation.  It seems like Zenph, 
WebOnlyPiano and others are having to figure these things out for 
themselves.  Is there anything official?

Mark Fontana
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 05:17:17PM -0500, George Frederick Litterst wrote:

> The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, 
> boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
> 
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of 
> playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and 
> subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer 
> more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity 
> measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also 
> have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model 
> instruments.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench

Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by jboxnz

Thanks PianoBench and Spencer for the info. 

I did use Veloset to compress the midi files I got from the internet. What I did so far is that if the file has maximum velocity over 100, I'll first use the left slider on Veloset to move the whole range lower (to the left until the max is at 100, or all the way to 1), and if the max is still over 100, I'll then use the right slider to compress it. This way I think will give a theoretic broader dynamic range (1-100) for the midi file, however it means the file will have notes in the 1-30 range which maybe all be played by the piano at ~30, so the bottom part of the notes get compressed more while the upper part is less compressed. 

Another way as suggested by Spencer is to limit the lower limit to ~30 as well as capping the upper at 100. This may match better the piano's capability, and provide a better linearity (whole ranged compressed the same amount) but gives a lot less theoretic dynamic range(only 30-100).

Which way do you think is better?

I also found that the volume control on the control unit does lower the playing volume, but more on the upper range (Before it engages the soft pedal). So if I lower the volume, it seems to have a effect of compressing the upper range.

By the way, I don't play piano although I do enjoy music. The piano was bought for my kids to learn.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
> 
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
> 
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional  0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> 
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127,     you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > 
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > 
> >>  
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >> 
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >> 
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >> 
> >> Cheers
> >> 
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> > 
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> > 
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >> > 
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> > 
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> > 
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> > 
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> > 
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >> 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > (707) 984-8356 
> > (425) 791-0309
> > 
> >
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by George Frederick Litterst

Good evening, everyone.

Mark, I was probably too casual in my description of these models, trying to provide general information without getting too specific.

It is true that all Disklaviers have a good bit of "head room" at the top of the note-on velocity scale. In my experience, reasonably expressive playing will live in the 30-95 range, a performance with a noticeably wide dynamic range will be in the 20-105 range (with an occasional spike at about 110), and a performance from the Minnesota International Piano-e-Competition may includes notes under 10 and may reach around 120 at the top (rarely, of course). And P-e-C performances may include some brushed notes that result in key movement without the hammer hitting the strings.

I am not sure that I have actually seen a note-on velocity of 120 in a Disklavier recording, but someone at Zenph with whom I spoke recently mentioned seeing 121 (if I recall the conversation correctly).

These numbers mean, of course,that the Disklavier really does not use the full spectrum of note-on velocities up to 127. Naturally this raises the question of "Why not?"

I have not heard a statement from Yamaha on this subject. As a general rule, Yamaha does not share this sort of technical information.

My own opinion is this: If you were designing a piano and decided that the loudest note that YOU could play was 127, one would have to wonder if that was the loudest note that any human can play. In other words, you play a note with all the force that you have and generate some measurable hammer velocity in feet per second. You decide to map that velocity to a MIDI value of 127. Then, someone else comes along and plays an even louder note. Does it also get 127?

It seems to me that it make sense to build in some headroom into the velocity scale so that no one ever exceeds the top MIDI value for velocity.

The Pro, unlike other Disklaviers, measures the MIDI velocity on a scale of 0-1023. This means, essentially, that a range of values is generated in between the normal MIDI values between 0 and 127. In other words, the Pro adds decimal places to the MIDI velocity concept. If I am wrong about this, someone from Zenph will need to speak up and correct me. Zenph has studied these issues in greater detail than just about any other entity in the world.

I think that you'll find that the best tools for normalizing MIDI performances for all Disklaviers will be coming from Zenph. Zenph's new RePerform editor is currently undergoing public beta testing. You can read about it here:


The program is currently focused on the editing of XP MIDI data. Odd as it may seem, there is no other sequencer in the world that makes it possible to edit XP MIDI data in any sort of convenient or practical way. XP data is comprised of a bundle of MIDI messages--many of which occur on the same clock tick--that are uniquely interpreted as high resolution data for note-on velocity (i.e. hammer velocity), key velocity, note-off velocity, and pedal data. The typical MIDI sequencer reorders some of these events in the MIDI data stream during file import, export, or both, thus resulting in corrupt XP data.

RePerform is a program that will grow in its feature set. Keep an eye open for it!

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:54 PM, Mark Fontana wrote:


George, it still remains the case that the effective "typical" velocity
range of a Disklavier (ALL past and current models) is compressed into
the MIDI velocity range of approximately 30-95, correct? Otherwise,
Yamaha would need to release different versions of their music diskettes
for different models.

The difference on newer models is that levels 95+ continue to get a
little louder and levels below 30 continue to get a little softer (to
some point), but the core range of 30-95 is intended to produce roughly
the same dynamic range in decibels across instruments. Right?

My understanding is that XP enhancement just adds more incremental steps
along this existing curve.

It would be great if Yamaha could develop some guidelines for content
creators (tips for ensuring consistent performance across Disklavier
models, particularly regarding note velocities and pedaling).

I'm not aware of any such documentation. It seems like Zenph,
WebOnlyPiano and others are having to figure these things out for
themselves. Is there anything official?

Mark Fontana

On Wed, Mar 09, 2011 at 05:17:17PM -0500, George Frederick Litterst wrote:

> The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback,
> boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of
> playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and
> subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer
> more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity
> measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also
> have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model
> instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench


Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by George Frederick Litterst

Good evening, everyone.

I am wondering if your piano is especially bright, is positioned directly on a wood floor, and has its back against a hard reflective surface. It is possible that some voicing of your piano, a rug under the instrument, and even a wool blanket or other baffling between the back of the piano and the wall behind would tone down the piano. This would mean that you don't need to go to such extreme lengths to edit down the note-on velocities.

Additionally, your piano may need calibration by a technician.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:03 PM, jboxnz wrote:

Thanks PianoBench and Spencer for the info.

I did use Veloset to compress the midi files I got from the internet. What I did so far is that if the file has maximum velocity over 100, I'll first use the left slider on Veloset to move the whole range lower (to the left until the max is at 100, or all the way to 1), and if the max is still over 100, I'll then use the right slider to compress it. This way I think will give a theoretic broader dynamic range (1-100) for the midi file, however it means the file will have notes in the 1-30 range which maybe all be played by the piano at ~30, so the bottom part of the notes get compressed more while the upper part is less compressed.

Another way as suggested by Spencer is to limit the lower limit to ~30 as well as capping the upper at 100. This may match better the piano's capability, and provide a better linearity (whole ranged compressed the same amount) but gives a lot less theoretic dynamic range(only 30-100).

Which way do you think is better?

I also found that the volume control on the control unit does lower the playing volume, but more on the upper range (Before it engages the soft pedal). So if I lower the volume, it seems to have a effect of compressing the upper range.

By the way, I don't play piano although I do enjoy music. The piano was bought for my kids to learn.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst wrote:
>
>; Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench
>
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> >
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >>
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> >
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >> >
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> >
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> >
> >> > Appreciate any info.
>; >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > (707) 984-8356
> > (425) 791-0309
> >
> >
>


Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by George Frederick Litterst

Good evening, everyone.

I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious, back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a scale of 0-255.

You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:

--Playback of XP Data
The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP data.)

--Sending XP Data On/Off
The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data for silent notes.

--Receiving XP Data On/Off
The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850 responds to that kind of data.

--Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
This option is gone.

--MIDI Thru2
This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option is gone.

--Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units, however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.

--Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.

--MIDI Input Choice
The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This feature is not present on the DKC-850.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:

Helo,
Great explanation.

How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons?

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst wrote:
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench
>
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> >
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >>
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> >
> >;> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
>; >> >
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> >
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> >
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > (707) 984-8356
> > (425) 791-0309
> >
> >
>


Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by Spencer chase

Not having a similar DKV with which to experiment, I can only guess but I think you might be able to get the best results by fiddling with different scaling "presets" with midimod2. This is because you independently adjust both the upper and lower ranges to match the dynamic response of your piano as well as compensating for other peculiarities of voicing etc. Veloset works with the whole dynamic range. If you slide the upper end down, you compress everything to some extent which might be exactly the opposite of what you want to do at the lower range. The advantage of Veloset is that it scales things smoothly so you don't have to worry about making a smooth transition between dynamic ranges. There is an advanced feature in midimod2 that allows you to copy the dynamic curve as a series of values that can be plotted in excel. When I am making presets for the LX piano from piano rolls, I use this feature extensively. I have a sample excel sheet with charts that I can share with anyone interested in using it. It is helpful to view the dynamic mapping as a graph to make sure it is smooth and to verify that it does in fact represent your intentions. The excel sheet is set up so you can just copy and paste the output from midimod2 into it and can compare the results of two different presets as graphs. The display histogram function of midimod2 is also useful for visualizing what transformations might be needed.

On 3/9/2011 4:03 PM, jboxnz wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

Thanks PianoBench and Spencer for the info.

I did use Veloset to compress the midi files I got from the internet. What I did so far is that if the file has maximum velocity over 100, I'll first use the left slider on Veloset to move the whole range lower (to the left until the max is at 100, or all the way to 1), and if the max is still over 100, I'll then use the right slider to compress it. This way I think will give a theoretic broader dynamic range (1-100) for the midi file, however it means the file will have notes in the 1-30 range which maybe all be played by the piano at ~30, so the bottom part of the notes get compressed more while the upper part is less compressed.

Another way as suggested by Spencer is to limit the lower limit to ~30 as well as capping the upper at 100. This may match better the piano's capability, and provide a better linearity (whole ranged compressed the same amount) but gives a lot less theoretic dynamic range(only 30-100).

Which way do you think is better?

I also found that the volume control on the control unit does lower the playing volume, but more on the upper range (Before it engages the soft pedal). So if I lower the volume, it seems to have a effect of compressing the upper range.

By the way, I don't play piano although I do enjoy music. The piano was bought for my kids to learn.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst wrote:
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench
>
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> >
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >>
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> >
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >> >
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> >
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> >
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > (707) 984-8356
> > (425) 791-0309
> >
> >
>


-- 
Best regards, Spencer Chase
67550-Bell Springs Rd.
Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
Spencer@...
http://www.spencerserolls.com
(707) 984-8356 
(425) 791-0309

Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by jboxnz

Thanks a lot Spencer. I think I'll do some experiment as you suggested and see what's best for me. Won't be an easy task for me as I don't play piano. Anyway I'll try different settings.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, Spencer chase <lists@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Not having a similar DKV with which to experiment, I can only guess but 
> I think you might be able to get the best results by fiddling with 
> different scaling "presets" with midimod2. This is because you 
> independently adjust  both the upper and lower ranges to match the 
> dynamic response of your piano as well as compensating for other 
> peculiarities of voicing etc.  Veloset works with the whole dynamic 
> range. If you slide the upper end down, you compress everything to some 
> extent which might be exactly the opposite of what you want to do at the 
> lower range. The advantage of Veloset is that it scales things smoothly 
> so you don't have to worry about making a smooth transition between 
> dynamic ranges. There is an advanced feature in midimod2 that allows you 
> to copy the dynamic curve as a series of values that can be plotted in 
> excel. When I am making presets for the LX piano from piano rolls, I use 
> this feature extensively. I have a sample excel sheet with charts that I 
> can share with anyone interested in using it. It is helpful to view the 
> dynamic mapping as a graph to make sure it is smooth and to verify that 
> it does in fact represent your intentions. The excel sheet is set up so 
> you can just copy and paste the output from midimod2 into it and can 
> compare the results of two different presets as graphs. The display 
> histogram function of midimod2 is also useful for visualizing what 
> transformations might be needed.
> 
> On 3/9/2011 4:03 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> > Thanks PianoBench and Spencer for the info.
> >
> > I did use Veloset to compress the midi files I got from the internet. 
> > What I did so far is that if the file has maximum velocity over 100, 
> > I'll first use the left slider on Veloset to move the whole range 
> > lower (to the left until the max is at 100, or all the way to 1), and 
> > if the max is still over 100, I'll then use the right slider to 
> > compress it. This way I think will give a theoretic broader dynamic 
> > range (1-100) for the midi file, however it means the file will have 
> > notes in the 1-30 range which maybe all be played by the piano at ~30, 
> > so the bottom part of the notes get compressed more while the upper 
> > part is less compressed.
> >
> > Another way as suggested by Spencer is to limit the lower limit to ~30 
> > as well as capping the upper at 100. This may match better the piano's 
> > capability, and provide a better linearity (whole ranged compressed 
> > the same amount) but gives a lot less theoretic dynamic range(only 
> > 30-100).
> >
> > Which way do you think is better?
> >
> > I also found that the volume control on the control unit does lower 
> > the playing volume, but more on the upper range (Before it engages the 
> > soft pedal). So if I lower the volume, it seems to have a effect of 
> > compressing the upper range.
> >
> > By the way, I don't play piano although I do enjoy music. The piano 
> > was bought for my kids to learn.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com>, George Frederick Litterst 
> > <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > >
> > > This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on 
> > playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI 
> > velocities.
> > >
> > > Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of 
> > playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and 
> > subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer 
> > more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity 
> > measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also 
> > have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > >
> > > www.georgelitterst.com
> > > www.timewarptech.com
> > > www.zenph.com
> > >
> > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> > >
> > > > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only 
> > play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have 
> > discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 
> > to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or 
> > with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the 
> > capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can 
> > achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > > > midimod2 is on the following page: 
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > > >
> > > > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different 
> > velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with 
> > different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 
> > 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), 
> > while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, 
> > progressively louder).
> > > >>
> > > >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, 
> > and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It 
> > works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> > > >>
> > > >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi 
> > music from the web.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com>, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hi,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) 
> > with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano 
> > indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller 
> > seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a 
> > MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout 
> > and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on 
> > the web.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the 
> > downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the 
> > piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the 
> > velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it 
> > also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged 
> > from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and 
> > volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Appreciate any info.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Cheers
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > > > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > > > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > > > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > > > Spencer@
> > > > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > > > (707) 984-8356
> > > > (425) 791-0309
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards, Spencer Chase
> 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> Spencer@...
> http://www.spencerserolls.com
> (707) 984-8356
> (425) 791-0309
>

Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by jboxnz

Thanks for the tips. The piano is not excessively bright (at least to my ear) although it is noticeable brighter than my neighbor's Kawai US50. It is on carpet but against an internal wall (standard dry wall). I'll try put something between the piano and the wall to see if I can tune it down a bit.

Cheers

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> I am wondering if your piano is especially bright, is positioned directly on a wood floor, and has its back against a hard reflective surface. It is possible that some voicing of your piano, a rug under the instrument, and even a wool blanket or other baffling between the back of the piano and the wall behind would tone down the piano. This would mean that you don't need to go to such extreme lengths to edit down the note-on velocities.
> 
> Additionally, your piano may need calibration by a technician.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 7:03 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> 
> > Thanks PianoBench and Spencer for the info. 
> > 
> > I did use Veloset to compress the midi files I got from the internet. What I did so far is that if the file has maximum velocity over 100, I'll first use the left slider on Veloset to move the whole range lower (to the left until the max is at 100, or all the way to 1), and if the max is still over 100, I'll then use the right slider to compress it. This way I think will give a theoretic broader dynamic range (1-100) for the midi file, however it means the file will have notes in the 1-30 range which maybe all be played by the piano at ~30, so the bottom part of the notes get compressed more while the upper part is less compressed. 
> > 
> > Another way as suggested by Spencer is to limit the lower limit to ~30 as well as capping the upper at 100. This may match better the piano's capability, and provide a better linearity (whole ranged compressed the same amount) but gives a lot less theoretic dynamic range(only 30-100).
> > 
> > Which way do you think is better?
> > 
> > I also found that the volume control on the control unit does lower the playing volume, but more on the upper range (Before it engages the soft pedal). So if I lower the volume, it seems to have a effect of compressing the upper range.
> > 
> > By the way, I don't play piano although I do enjoy music. The piano was bought for my kids to learn.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > > 
> > > This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
> > > 
> > > Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > > 
> > > www.georgelitterst.com
> > > www.timewarptech.com
> > > www.zenph.com
> > > 
> > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> > > 
> > > > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > > > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > > > 
> > > > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> 
> > > >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Appreciate any info.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Cheers
> > > >> >
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > > > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > > > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > > > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > > > Spencer@
> > > > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > > > (707) 984-8356 
> > > > (425) 791-0309
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>

Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by athomik

As far as I know, the velocity compression is handled within the Disklavier, not written into the song files.. This is probably done by the PK-CTL circuit board, which handles all the sensor and drive data and contains the pianos tables, which are written during calibration to the adjust offsets required to compensate variations in velocity response for each individual key.

I haven't checked it myself, but I would expect song files, even if recorded on a Disklavier to show the full range of velocities played by the pianist. The velocity limitations of a Disklavier are not down to the fact that the sensors can't capture the full range of velocities, they are down to the fact that the solenoids have to overcome the inertia of the mechanical keys/action, as well as avoiding damage to the action from excessive force.

With modern Disklaviers, the introduction of servo control allows much more precise control of the keys which results in a more accurate playback at velocities near the upper and lower limits - the E3 can play quieter than anything else produced to date.

athomik

On Mar 9 2011, Mark Fontana wrote:

>
>George, it still remains the case that the effective "typical" velocity
>range of a Disklavier (ALL past and current models) is compressed into
>the MIDI velocity range of approximately 30-95, correct? Otherwise,
>Yamaha would need to release different versions of their music diskettes
>for different models.
>
>The difference on newer models is that levels 95+ continue to get a
>little louder and levels below 30 continue to get a little softer (to
>some point), but the core range of 30-95 is intended to produce roughly
>the same dynamic range in decibels across instruments. Right?
>;
>My understanding is that XP enhancement just adds more incremental steps
>along this existing curve.
>
>It would be great if Yamaha could develop some guidelines for content
>creators (tips for ensuring consistent performance across Disklavier
>models, particularly regarding note velocities and pedaling).
>
>I'm not aware of any such documentation. It seems like Zenph,
>WebOnlyPiano and others are having to figure these things out for
>themselves. Is there anything official?
>
>Mark Fontana
>

Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by Wethington, P

This is not new information regarding the midi info. I did an experiment with my 2002 DKV MIII when I first got it. I noticed that pieces I recorded weren't being played back as well as they were recorded, the softer notes dropped out. 

So I used a separate program (Digital Performer) and recorded specific velocity information for each note, trying to identify why notes were being dropped. What I found were velocities below a certain level wouldn't trigger and velocities above another level didn't increase in volume. I finally determined that the bandwidth was approximately half of the 0-127 range. 

This is not so with the DKV M-IV.

Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by George Frederick Litterst

Good morning, everyone.

I suspect that this 2002 DKV MIII needed calibration. In my experience, the Disklavier is designed pretty well to avoid dropping notes. That is one reason why earlier models played the softest notes at some minimum velocity--about 25 for grands and 35 for uprights--regardless as to how low the actual recorded velocity was.

Regards,
PianBench


On Mar 10, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Wethington, P wrote:


This is not new information regarding the midi info. I did an experiment with my 2002 DKV MIII when I first got it. I noticed that pieces I recorded weren't being played back as well as they were recorded, the softer notes dropped out.

So I used a separate program (Digital Performer) and recorded specific velocity information for each note, trying to identify why notes were being dropped. What I found were velocities below a certain level wouldn't trigger and velocities above another level didn't increase in volume. I finally determined that the bandwidth was approximately half of the 0-127 range.

This is not so with the DKV M-IV.


Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

2011-03-10 by Richard Banks

Does anyone have any similar information regarding the C5 / C6 mark II ?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 10, 2011, at 8:21 AM, "Wethington, P" <thirdharmonic@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text


This is not new information regarding the midi info. I did an experiment with my 2002 DKV MIII when I first got it. I noticed that pieces I recorded weren't being played back as well as they were recorded, the softer notes dropped out.

So I used a separate program (Digital Performer) and recorded specific velocity information for each note, trying to identify why notes were being dropped. What I found were velocities below a certain level wouldn't trigger and velocities above another level didn't increase in volume. I finally determined that the bandwidth was approximately half of the 0-127 range.

This is not so with the DKV M-IV.

THANK YOU!

2011-03-10 by Shelley Bacon

Dear PianoBench and others - I just want to say how absolutely amazed I am at 
your body of knowledge about all things MIDI and Disklavier. I LOVE my DC4M4, 
but mostly I just play it. I have so little knowledge about how it actually 
works, though I do play around with it as much as I have time for. I have 
bragged to others many times about the depth and breadth of knowledge available 
here in this forum. I continue to be impressed. 

Maybe someday I'll learn more! Thanks to all of you who so willingly share your 
wisdom, experience, and resources. 

Shelley



________________________________
From: George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 6:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne

 

Good evening, everyone.

I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro and the 
Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious, back-to-back 
comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records pedal movement on a 
scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a scale of 0-255.

You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with a 
DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:

--Playback of XP Data
The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP data.)

--Sending XP Data On/Off
The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data for 
silent notes.

--Receiving XP Data On/Off
The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850 responds to 
that kind of data.

--Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
This option is gone.

--MIDI Thru2
This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an 
external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms 
delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option is 
gone.

--Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either Keyboard 
Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the old control 
units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out the MIDI port or 
USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units, however, gave you an 
option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you turned on Ensemble Out. This 
option is gone.

--Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while 
layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.

--MIDI Input Choice
The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark II 
and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play any of 
the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This feature is 
not present on the DKC-850.

Regards,
PianoBench


www.georgelitterst.com
www.timewarptech.com
www.zenph.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:

  
>Helo, 
>Great explanation. 
>
>How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution 
>and dynamic range?  And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a 
>DKC-850 in such comparisons? 
>
>
>--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> 
>wrote:
>>
>> Good afternoon, everyone.
>> 
>> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, 
>>boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>> 
>> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback 
>>possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have 
>>been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the 
>>traditional  0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs 
>>non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model 
>>instruments.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> PianoBench
>> 
>> www.georgelitterst.com
>> www.timewarptech.com
>> www.zenph.com
>> 
>> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>> 
>> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the 
>>range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files 
>>that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127,     you can remap them to the 
>>DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be 
>>able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you 
>>can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
>> > midimod2 is on the following page: 
>>http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
>> > 
>> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
>> > 
>> >> 
>> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging 
>>from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the 
>>loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all 
>>pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible 
>>difference, progressively louder).
>> >> 
>> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes 
>>with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 
>>30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
>> >> 
>> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from 
>>the web.
>> >> 
>> >> Cheers
>> >> 
>> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> > 
>> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a 
>>playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 
>>model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware 
>>(Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit 
>>and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the 
>>service manul I found on the web.
>> >> > 
>> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded 
>>midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play 
>>at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use 
>>Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece 
>>with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same 
>>volume.
>> >> > 
>> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
>> >> > 
>> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume 
>>settings, and will do more test tonight.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Appreciate any info.
>> >> > 
>> >> > Cheers
>> >> >
>> >> 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
>> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
>> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
>> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
>> > Spencer@...
>> > http://www.spencerserolls.com/
>> > (707) 984-8356 
>> > (425) 791-0309
>> > 
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: [disklavier] THANK YOU!

2011-03-10 by George Frederick Litterst

Thanks for your kind words, Shelley. We're all part of a very nice, distributed Disklavier family!

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 10, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Shelley Bacon wrote:


Dear PianoBench and others - I just want to say how absolutely amazed I am at your body of knowledge about all things MIDI and Disklavier. I LOVE my DC4M4, but mostly I just play it. I have so little knowledge about how it actually works, though I do play around with it as much as I have time for. I have bragged to others many times about the depth and breadth of knowledge available here in this forum. I continue to be impressed.

Maybe someday I'll learn more! Thanks to all of you who so willingly share your wisdom, experience, and resources.

Shelley

Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...>
To: disklavier@...m
Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 6:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne



Good evening, everyone.

I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious, back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a scale of 0-255.

You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:

--Playback of XP Data
The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP data.)

--Sending XP Data On/Off
The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data for silent notes.

--Receiving XP Data On/Off
The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850 responds to that kind of data.

--Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
This option is gone.

--MIDI Thru2
This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option is gone.

--Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units, however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.

--Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.

--MIDI Input Choice
The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This feature is not present on the DKC-850.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:

Helo,
Great explanation.

How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons?

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst wrote:
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench
>
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> >
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >>
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> >
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >>; >
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> >
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> >
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com/
> > (707) 984-8356
> > (425) 791-0309
> >
> >
>







Re: [disklavier] THANK YOU!

2011-03-10 by Adriana DiFranco

>Thanks for your kind words, Shelley. >We're all part of a very nice, >distributed Disklavier family!

Quite right, George. Or as I like to call it, The Disklavier Diaspora. ;)

--Adriana

Sent from my Coleco Electronic Quarterback Game circa 1978

Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@aol.com>
Sender: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:43:07 -0500
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [disklavier] THANK YOU!

Thanks for your kind words, Shelley. We're all part of a very nice, distributed Disklavier family!


Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 10, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Shelley Bacon wrote:


Dear PianoBench and others - I just want to say how absolutely amazed I am at your body of knowledge about all things MIDI and Disklavier. I LOVE my DC4M4, but mostly I just play it. I have so little knowledge about how it actually works, though I do play around with it as much as I have time for. I have bragged to others many times about the depth and breadth of knowledge available here in this forum. I continue to be impressed.

Maybe someday I'll learn more! Thanks to all of you who so willingly share your wisdom, experience, and resources.

Shelley

From: George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@aol.com>
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 6:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: 1986 Disklavier midi play back volumne



Good evening, everyone.

I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious, back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a scale of 0-255.

You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:

--Playback of XP Data
The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP data.)

--Sending XP Data On/Off
The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data for silent notes.

--Receiving XP Data On/Off
The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850 responds to that kind of data.

--Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
This option is gone.

--MIDI Thru2
This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option is gone.

--Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units, however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.

--Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.

--MIDI Input Choice
The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This feature is not present on the DKC-850.

Regards,
PianoBench


On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:

Helo,
Great explanation.

How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons?

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
> Good afternoon, everyone.
>
> This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
>
> Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
>
> Regards,
> PianoBench
>
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
>
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
>
> > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> >
> > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> >>
> >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> >>
> >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> >> >
> >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> >> >
> >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> >> >
> >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> >> >
> >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> >> >
> >> > Appreciate any info.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > Spencer@...
> > http://www.spencerserolls.com/
> > (707) 984-8356
> > (425) 791-0309
> >
> >
>







Pro vs Pro upgrade options

2011-03-13 by kassey22000

Thank you George, this has been very helpful.  

One of the Disklavier Techs suggested that if I don't want to loose the ability of the Pro playback and recording detail that I should install the DKC-850 unit as an "add-on" not as a "replacement" controller.  Apparently the 850 strips out XP data from Pro recordings so the full dynamics of the Pro's advance solenoid and recording functions are lost.  

I did a test by playing some very technical classical songs from a PRO-XP sampler disk on the DC5-PRO with the 850 hooked up as the master controller and the MKIIXG unit disconnected.  

Then I followed the instructions in the DKC-850 manual and hooked up the old controller with the 850 as the slave with Midi cables and played the identical music stored on the MK-IIXGs internal memory.  
It seems obvious to my ears and eyes that the identical piece was much more precise and sounded fantastic!   

In addition, I'm able to use all of the internal voices from the MKIIXG out to my amplifier.  

The downsides to this arrangement are:
1. I now have 2 controllers hooked up which require additional unsightly cables and very different looking units taking up a lot of space.  
2. Internet Radio will not function in this configuration, however my wireless internet, and PC2Piano all seem to be functioning normally.
I don't think I'd get a lot of use out of the DRadio service anyway. 
3. The remote can signal both controllers at once so you have to tape up the old Controller and it cannot be controlled with the iPhone 4 app (which btw is a FANTASTIC app..I love it!!).

I'd be very grateful if anyone else has had experience with these configurations and what they have found missing or discovered.  

Thanks KC
--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious, back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a scale of 0-255.
> 
> You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:
> 
> --Playback of XP Data
> The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP data.)
> 
> --Sending XP Data On/Off
> The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data for silent notes.
> 
> --Receiving XP Data On/Off
> The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850 responds to that kind of data.
> 
> --Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
> This option is gone.
> 
> --MIDI Thru2
> This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option is gone.
> 
> --Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
> The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units, however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.
> 
> --Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
> When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.
> 
> --MIDI Input Choice
> The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This feature is not present on the DKC-850.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:
> 
> > Helo, 
> > Great explanation. 
> > 
> > How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons? 
> > 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > > 
> > > This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI velocities.
> > > 
> > > Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to the early model instruments.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > > 
> > > www.georgelitterst.com
> > > www.timewarptech.com
> > > www.zenph.com
> > > 
> > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> > > 
> > > > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the piano wants.
> > > > midimod2 is on the following page: http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > > > 
> > > > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume. However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90 and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for 30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi music from the web.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> 
> > > >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a 1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993 firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80 according to the service manul I found on the web.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud. Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems were played at same volume.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and forcefully.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Appreciate any info.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Cheers
> > > >> >
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > > > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > > > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > > > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > > > Spencer@
> > > > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > > > (707) 984-8356 
> > > > (425) 791-0309
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>

RE: [disklavier] Pro vs Pro upgrade options

2011-03-13 by Phil Becker

I find everything KC says here to be true, and it has been my only real
disappointment with the DKC-850 upgrade to my DC3 PRO.  I have been hoping
that Yamaha would eventually upgrade the software to allow the DKC-850 to
use the enhanced range of the PRO hardware via XP level recording/playback,
but someone posted that they had been told there was a hardware limitation
of the DKC-850 that meant this would never happen.  I find that quite sad,
as the difference in listening to XP level recordings in full resolution is
significant as KC indicated.  
 
Sadder yet is that we will never likely know if there really is a hardware
limitation or just a lack of desire to deal with the software work involved,
which leads to the only other real disappointment I have had with Yamaha and
upgrades.
 
That disappointment with what is otherwise a totally great upgrade is that
Yamaha won't issue an upgrade that enables the E3 iPhone app on the DKC-850.
Since you can load E3 software on the DKC-850 hardware and it works, there
is no hardware reason for this, only lack of software effort.  In a similar
vane, I find their "closed shop" software mentality with regards to giving
Kevin the small amount of "secret" info needed for him to enable DKVBrowser
to work on the E3 short sighted as well.  I understand their desire not to
lose control of what is now really just a bunch of apps on LINUX, but it is
sad to have to deal with this outlook as long as DKV owners have had to.
 
I do want to say that my DC3 Pro piano has been a joy on more levels than I
know how to express.  My 11 years with it have brought me great
satisfaction, along with just a few moments of knowing how it could be so
much better "if only Yamaha would...".  One of my biggest prayers was
answered with the DKC-850 upgrade, and I don't want what I say here to
undermine my thanks for that. But it is SO CLOSE to being truly great, and
there appears to be no interest from Yamaha in making it so, and a
resistance to allowing others who would do so the access they need.  This
reminds me of the computer software business circa 1995, and even Microsoft
eventually got the message on that one...
 
Phil

  _____  

From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of kassey22000
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:45 PM
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Pro vs Pro upgrade options


  

Thank you George, this has been very helpful. 

One of the Disklavier Techs suggested that if I don't want to loose the
ability of the Pro playback and recording detail that I should install the
DKC-850 unit as an "add-on" not as a "replacement" controller. Apparently
the 850 strips out XP data from Pro recordings so the full dynamics of the
Pro's advance solenoid and recording functions are lost. 

I did a test by playing some very technical classical songs from a PRO-XP
sampler disk on the DC5-PRO with the 850 hooked up as the master controller
and the MKIIXG unit disconnected. 

Then I followed the instructions in the DKC-850 manual and hooked up the old
controller with the 850 as the slave with Midi cables and played the
identical music stored on the MK-IIXGs internal memory. 
It seems obvious to my ears and eyes that the identical piece was much more
precise and sounded fantastic! 

In addition, I'm able to use all of the internal voices from the MKIIXG out
to my amplifier. 

The downsides to this arrangement are:
1. I now have 2 controllers hooked up which require additional unsightly
cables and very different looking units taking up a lot of space. 
2. Internet Radio will not function in this configuration, however my
wireless internet, and PC2Piano all seem to be functioning normally.
I don't think I'd get a lot of use out of the DRadio service anyway. 
3. The remote can signal both controllers at once so you have to tape up the
old Controller and it cannot be controlled with the iPhone 4 app (which btw
is a FANTASTIC app..I love it!!).

I'd be very grateful if anyone else has had experience with these
configurations and what they have found missing or discovered. 

Thanks KC
--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> ,
George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
> Good evening, everyone.
> 
> I hope that someone from Zenph will speak up regarding the Mark IIXG Pro
and the Mark IV Pro. I have not had the opportunity to do serious,
back-to-back comparisons. I can tell you that the Mark IIXG Pro records
pedal movement on a scale of 0-127 and that the Mark IV Pro does it on a
scale of 0-255.
> 
> You asked about what you sacrifice when you replace the Mark IIXG Pro with
a DKC-850 control unit. You lose the following:
> 
> --Playback of XP Data
> The DKC-850 does not playback XP song data. (It does, however, record XP
data.)
> 
> --Sending XP Data On/Off
> The DKC-850 does not send XP data although it does send aftertouch data
for silent notes.
> 
> --Receiving XP Data On/Off
> The On/Off selection feature is missing. I don't know if the DKC-850
responds to that kind of data.
> 
> --Keyboard Out Split/Transposition
> This option is gone.
> 
> --MIDI Thru2
> This feature was previously available in order to allow you to connect an
external tone generator. The incoming MIDI data stream would get the 500 ms
delay applied to it before it was passed to the MIDI Out port. This option
is gone.
> 
> --Piano Part Ensemble Out On/Off
> The DKC-850 gives you an opportunity to designate MIDI Out as either
Keyboard Out or Ensemble Out. If you choose Ensemble Out, by default, the
old control units and the DKC-850 do not send the piano part of a song out
the MIDI port or USB MIDI port during playback. The old control units,
however, gave you an option to turn on Piano Part Ensemble Out when you
turned on Ensemble Out. This option is gone.
> 
> --Voice: Option to have Piano Tone On or Off
> When in Quiet Mode, it used to be possible to have the Piano Tone On while
layering another voice on top. This feature is no longer present.
> 
> --MIDI Input Choice
> The choices for MIDI Input used to include ## on Mark III, Mark IIXG, Mark
II and other models. When this choice was selected, the piano would not play
any of the incoming data and all data would go to the tone generator. This
feature is not present on the DKC-850.
> 
> Regards,
> PianoBench
> 
> www.georgelitterst.com
> www.timewarptech.com
> www.zenph.com
> 
> On Mar 9, 2011, at 6:40 PM, kassey22000 wrote:
> 
> > Helo, 
> > Great explanation. 
> > 
> > How does a Mark IIXG Pro compare to a Mark IV Pro as far as playback
resolution and dynamic range? And what do you sacrifice coverting a Mark
IIXG Pro to a DKC-850 in such comparisons? 
> > 
> > --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com <mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com>
, George Frederick Litterst <PianoBench@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon, everyone.
> > > 
> > > This is true. The early Disklaviers compressed the dynamic range on
playback, boosting the low MIDI velocities and capping the high MIDI
velocities.
> > > 
> > > Starting with the Mark IIXG Pro, Yamaha achieved a full spectrum of
playback possibilities on the Disklavier. The original Pro and subsequent
Pro models have been unsurpassed in this regard and offer more resolution in
between the traditional 0-127 velocity measurements. The Mark III, current
E3, and Mark IVs non-Pros also have a much wider dynamic range compared to
the early model instruments.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > PianoBench
> > > 
> > > www.georgelitterst.com
> > > www.timewarptech.com
> > > www.zenph.com
> > > 
> > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 1:24 PM, Spencer chase wrote:
> > > 
> > > > the older dkvs do not play soft notes very well. also they only play
the range of something like 30 to 100 just as you have discovered. if you
have files that use the whole dynamic range from 1 to 127, you can remap
them to the DKV range with either Veloset or with my midimod2 program. You
will never be able to change the capabilities of the piano by modifying the
software but you can achieve a better match between the source and what the
piano wants.
> > > > midimod2 is on the following page:
http://www.spencerserolls.com/Files4Download.html
> > > > 
> > > > On 3/8/2011 10:42 PM, jboxnz wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> 
> > > >> Did some further test with test midi samples of different velocity
ranging from 5 to 100. The piano did play the samples with different volume.
However the loudness of samples with note velocity 5, 10, 20 and 30 are
almost the same (all pretty loud to my ear), while those with 40, 60, 80, 90
and 100 have discernible difference, progressively louder).
> > > >> 
> > > >> It seems to me that the piano cannot play very soft notes well, and
notes with velocity 1-20 are all played at similar volume. It works best for
30-100...didn't try anything over 100 though.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Really great to have the piano play by itself...and all the midi
music from the web.
> > > >> 
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> 
> > > >> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:disklavier%40yahoogroups.com> , "jboxnz" <junkbox.nz@> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > We recently bought a grey market U3 (originally from Japan) with
a playback-only Disklavier systerm. The S/N on the piano indicates it's a
1986 model, although the test menu on the controller seems to show 1993
firmware (Maybe a retrofit system). It looks like a MX80 unit with separate
control unit and has the same physical layout and test menu as the MX80
according to the service manul I found on the web.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I hooked it via a USB-Midi cable to my computer and to play the
downloaded midi files (From www.kuhmann.com). What I found is that the piano
seems to play at same volume no matter what I do with the velocity of the
midi files (I use Veloset). Also for soft notes it also plays quite loud.
Say for a midi piece with note velocity ranged from 10-100, all notes seems
were played at same volume.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > However in the test mode, it seems can play softely and
forcefully.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Is this normal for it or something wrong?
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I've made some more test midi files with different velocity and
volume settings, and will do more test tonight.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Appreciate any info.
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > Cheers
> > > >> >
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Best regards, Spencer Chase
> > > > 67550-Bell Springs Rd.
> > > > Garberville, CA 95542 Postal service only.
> > > > Laytonville, CA 95454 UPS only.
> > > > Spencer@
> > > > http://www.spencerserolls.com
> > > > (707) 984-8356 
> > > > (425) 791-0309
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> >
>

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