Disklavier

I know my opinions may seem a little crusty at times when it comes to buying 
used Disklaviers and/or used pianos in general, but after 23 years of 
dealing with the tears and unmet expectations of purchasers trying to save a 
little money, I would like to say a few things.

1.	If possible, go in person to play and hear the piano before you buy it.  
Not all pianos play and sound alike.  Basically, what you hear and see is 
what you get.  If you don\ufffdt like the tuning or voicing, and these things 
cannot be adjusted on the spot as you watch to your liking, chances are the 
situation won\ufffdt be much better in your living room.  If you decide to buy 
the instrument, get the serial number on the purchase agreement.

2.	If you are buying the piano from a distant vendor, and cannot evaluate it 
yourself, hire a Registered Piano Technician to check it out first.  Not all 
piano technicians are familiar with Disklaviers, so talk about this first.  
You can get a list of Registered Piano Technicians from www.ptg.org or call 
Yamaha at 1-800-854-1569 to recommend someone in your area.  Have the 
technician supply you with the serial number.

3.	Make sure you know exactly what features you are getting.  You can always 
post to this website and get an answer as to what the various models 
include.  Basically it comes down to how much you want to mess around trying 
to do what you want to do.  The oldest and most basic Disklaviers will play 
the piano from floppy disks you buy from Yamaha and will play standard MIDI 
files from an attached computer.  Everything else is optional or is included 
in a succesion of upgraded models.  Extra features include whether or not 
the DKV will play standard MIDI files from the floppy disk drive, what kinds 
of floppy disks are useable, incremental pedaling, upgradeable flash rom, a 
tone generator for Ensemble sounds, speakers, headphones, Silent System, 
Smart Key and Piano Smart, a stereo audio system, and a CD player.

4.	Make sure you are buying a piano constructed for the part of the world 
you will be using it in; i.e. avoid purchasing a Gray Market piano.  If you 
live in North America, you don\ufffdt want a piano designed soley for an Asian 
climate.  Most homes in North America have a forced air heating system so 
the relative humidity can get as low as 10%rh in the winter. If the piano 
was contructed from wood with 12% moisture content, instead of a 5% moisture 
content there is a risk of the piano changing radical dimensions during 
seasonal changes.  This can result in the finish cracking and falling off 
the cabinet, the soundboard flattening during the dry season, the pinblock 
not holding the tuning pins tight enough to hold a tuning, and the piano 
action being plagued by intermittent sticking keys.  The electronics may 
also not be UL approved, so no vendor in their right mind will risk a 
product liability lawsuit to sell you replacement parts.

5.	Remember that the lowest price is not always the best value.  Buying an 
instrument from a local vendor not only puts your sales taxes to work in 
your own community, but gives someone else in your locality a vested 
interest in your satisfaction.  It is certainly easier for a vendor to sell 
a piano (sometimes still in its original packing crate) far, far away if it 
fell off the fork lift than to be responsible for its performance locally!  
Moving companies, or their agents, are also a source of \ufffdgood deals\ufffd.  Many 
times a long-distance moving company will claim to have expertise moving 
pianos only to send out an inexperienced crew.  Pianos are dropped on steps 
all the time and a good polyester touch-up man can hide such damage well.

6.	How many of you are still using your IBM 8088 computers \ufffd you know, the 
ones with 64k ram?  Before CD players were invented?  1987 does not sound 
like a very long time in the past, but in the world of electronics it is 
ancient history.  Neither pianos, nor the disk drives on Disklaviers, will 
last forever.  You should factor in the cost or repairs when buying an older 
model.  A new floppy drive will cost at least $300, and the retail price of 
the DSR1 upgrade (tone generator, plays all standard MIDI files on both HD 
and DD disks, memory) is $1295.  The cost of the CD player is $1295 and it 
still does not do PianoSmart.  And those are just for starters.

7.	Perhaps it is helpful to think of buying a piano/Disklavier in the same 
terms as buying a car.  They cost about the same amount of money.  Cars all 
have 4 tires, brakes and steering, and an engine, and they don\ufffdt last 
forever. But there is an incredible range of  options available.  Buying a 
used Disklavier can be like buying a Mercedes with  150,000 miles on it.  
Buyer Beware.


Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...




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Carol,

You know, your opinions don't seem crusty... but they are a bit
biased in one direction.  Let me toss out a few salient, and almost
too-obvious points for consideration on the other side... point by
point to yours...

0 - Buying used isn't always to 'save a little money'.  Sometimes one
buys used to get more features and a better quality for the SAME
money as one would spend new.  That is, to follow your analogy,
one might spend $15k on a new Ford Probe base vehicle, vs spending
the same $15k on a used Lincoln or Caddy.  In your analogy, one
concludes your recommendation to buy the Probe.... I'd disagree.

1 - See before you buy..... Absolutely!  I know when we went and
purchased our Steinway, we spent hours playing, feeling the action,
hearing the sounds.... making sure the highs were as bright as what
we wanted without loosing the lows.....   Cleary, to me at least,
buying an instrument without playing it, hearing it, seeing it first
is un-fathomable...  When you buy used - you can arrange to see/hear
etc.  Yet when you buy new... I keep coming across those who
'ordered' their new grand... and '..it will be coming in x months....'
Absolutely not!  A fine used Strad, Steinway - or Yamaha that I can
hear, touch, feel and play wins out well over a new 'ordered' instrument.

2 - Great idea - and we agree.  ALWAYS have your purchase checked
out by a knowledgeable and experienced set of eyes and hands.  I would
maintain this to be required be it OLD or NEW... used or factory order.
We agree - no impact on new vs used choice.

3 - Features?  Absolutely!  Again, note my comment at the top regarding
why used....   One could find a used Grand vs a new upright....   Not only
should you know what you are getting - but know what you need / want.
Again, I'd posit not an impact on the new vs used choice.

4 - Gray market and US targeted instrument:  Absolutely!  Once again,
like buying a car in Mexico and bringing it back to the US... not quite!!
What ever is bought should be purpose built...  we agree, but again, not
a new vs used....  It is just as 'easy' to find a gray market 'new' piano that
bypassed the system.  Check those serial and references; new or used!!

5 - Low price isn't always best!  -Wow, again we agree!  Your example
of the piano in a its original packing crate is perfect!  Oh, that's a reason
not to buy new, un played, un heard, un seen....  Sorry!  One for the used side!

6 - 1987 Intel 8088... Well, actually, the 8088 was back earlier than
1987.  Today, a new DD floppy can be found for under $100.  Yes, the
DSR1 upgrade has a list price of $1295... but who pays list (I bought
my DSR1 for $250... (oh yes, it was used... and I still have it running
a few years later!).  Again, I'd urge see #3 above... know thy features!
Are you looking for an electronic piano that happens to have an
acoustic capability??? or an Acoustic that has some electronic????

7 - See the top....Your analogy is great.... Buying the Mercedes with
150,000 miles for an S type Diesel for the same price as a new
C190??  Me, I'd opt for the S500 Diesel, after I'd seen it.

BUT - I think we agree on this;  in either case, new or used, the
dealer honesty, the dealer service capability and the availability of a good top notch technician BEFORE and AFTER the sale makes or
breaks
a happy long term marriage.

Just my thoughts - on the other side!

Ed
The Old Mercedes Guy.....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:42 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Buying a Used Disklaver


| I know my opinions may seem a little crusty at times when it comes to buying
| used Disklaviers and/or used pianos in general, but after 23 years of
| dealing with the tears and unmet expectations of purchasers trying to save a
| little money, I would like to say a few things.
|
| 1. If possible, go in person to play and hear the piano before you buy it.
| Not all pianos play and sound alike.  Basically, what you hear and see is
| what you get.  If you don't like the tuning or voicing, and these things
| cannot be adjusted on the spot as you watch to your liking, chances are the
| situation won't be much better in your living room.  If you decide to buy
| the instrument, get the serial number on the purchase agreement.
|
| 2. If you are buying the piano from a distant vendor, and cannot evaluate it
| yourself, hire a Registered Piano Technician to check it out first.  Not all
| piano technicians are familiar with Disklaviers, so talk about this first.
| You can get a list of Registered Piano Technicians from www.ptg.org or call
| Yamaha at 1-800-854-1569 to recommend someone in your area.  Have the
| technician supply you with the serial number.
|
| 3. Make sure you know exactly what features you are getting.  You can always
| post to this website and get an answer as to what the various models
| include.  Basically it comes down to how much you want to mess around trying
| to do what you want to do.  The oldest and most basic Disklaviers will play
| the piano from floppy disks you buy from Yamaha and will play standard MIDI
| files from an attached computer.  Everything else is optional or is included
| in a succesion of upgraded models.  Extra features include whether or not
| the DKV will play standard MIDI files from the floppy disk drive, what kinds
| of floppy disks are useable, incremental pedaling, upgradeable flash rom, a
| tone generator for Ensemble sounds, speakers, headphones, Silent System,
| Smart Key and Piano Smart, a stereo audio system, and a CD player.
|
| 4. Make sure you are buying a piano constructed for the part of the world
| you will be using it in; i.e. avoid purchasing a Gray Market piano.  If you
| live in North America, you don't want a piano designed soley for an Asian
| climate.  Most homes in North America have a forced air heating system so
| the relative humidity can get as low as 10%rh in the winter. If the piano
| was contructed from wood with 12% moisture content, instead of a 5% moisture
| content there is a risk of the piano changing radical dimensions during
| seasonal changes.  This can result in the finish cracking and falling off
| the cabinet, the soundboard flattening during the dry season, the pinblock
| not holding the tuning pins tight enough to hold a tuning, and the piano
| action being plagued by intermittent sticking keys.  The electronics may
| also not be UL approved, so no vendor in their right mind will risk a
| product liability lawsuit to sell you replacement parts.
|
| 5. Remember that the lowest price is not always the best value.  Buying an
| instrument from a local vendor not only puts your sales taxes to work in
| your own community, but gives someone else in your locality a vested
| interest in your satisfaction.  It is certainly easier for a vendor to sell
| a piano (sometimes still in its original packing crate) far, far away if it
| fell off the fork lift than to be responsible for its performance locally!
| Moving companies, or their agents, are also a source of "good deals".  Many
| times a long-distance moving company will claim to have expertise moving
| pianos only to send out an inexperienced crew.  Pianos are dropped on steps
| all the time and a good polyester touch-up man can hide such damage well.
|
| 6. How many of you are still using your IBM 8088 computers - you know, the
| ones with 64k ram?  Before CD players were invented?  1987 does not sound
| like a very long time in the past, but in the world of electronics it is
| ancient history.  Neither pianos, nor the disk drives on Disklaviers, will
| last forever.  You should factor in the cost or repairs when buying an older
| model.  A new floppy drive will cost at least $300, and the retail price of
| the DSR1 upgrade (tone generator, plays all standard MIDI files on both HD
| and DD disks, memory) is $1295.  The cost of the CD player is $1295 and it
| still does not do PianoSmart.  And those are just for starters.
|
| 7. Perhaps it is helpful to think of buying a piano/Disklavier in the same
| terms as buying a car.  They cost about the same amount of money.  Cars all
| have 4 tires, brakes and steering, and an engine, and they don't last
| forever. But there is an incredible range of  options available.  Buying a
| used Disklavier can be like buying a Mercedes with  150,000 miles on it.
| Buyer Beware.
|
|
| Carol Beigel
| crbrpt@...
|
|
|
|
| _________________________________________________________________
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|
|
| To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
|
| To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
| disklavier-owner@...
|
| To reach our group's web site go to:
| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
|
| Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among
many other things, The url is:
| http://MuncyFamily.com
|
| THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
| If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send
a blank email to:
| disklavier-unsubscribe@...
|
| Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
| disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

I wouldn't dissagree with any of this.

Buying a used instrument can definitely be worthwhile
but it is certainly NOT the NO Brainer that most
people think it is!

Ed Spillane

--- Carol Beigel <carolrpt@...> wrote:
> I know my opinions may seem a little crusty at times
> when it comes to buying 
> used Disklaviers and/or used pianos in general, but
> after 23 years of 
> dealing with the tears and unmet expectations of
> purchasers trying to save a 
> little money, I would like to say a few things.
> 
> 1.	If possible, go in person to play and hear the
> piano before you buy it.  
> Not all pianos play and sound alike.  Basically,
> what you hear and see is 
> what you get.  If you don\ufffdt like the tuning or
> voicing, and these things 
> cannot be adjusted on the spot as you watch to your
> liking, chances are the 
> situation won\ufffdt be much better in your living room. 
> If you decide to buy 
> the instrument, get the serial number on the
> purchase agreement.
> 
> 2.	If you are buying the piano from a distant
> vendor, and cannot evaluate it 
> yourself, hire a Registered Piano Technician to
> check it out first.  Not all 
> piano technicians are familiar with Disklaviers, so
> talk about this first.  
> You can get a list of Registered Piano Technicians
> from www.ptg.org or call 
> Yamaha at 1-800-854-1569 to recommend someone in
> your area.  Have the 
> technician supply you with the serial number.
> 
> 3.	Make sure you know exactly what features you are
> getting.  You can always 
> post to this website and get an answer as to what
> the various models 
> include.  Basically it comes down to how much you
> want to mess around trying 
> to do what you want to do.  The oldest and most
> basic Disklaviers will play 
> the piano from floppy disks you buy from Yamaha and
> will play standard MIDI 
> files from an attached computer.  Everything else is
> optional or is included 
> in a succesion of upgraded models.  Extra features
> include whether or not 
> the DKV will play standard MIDI files from the
> floppy disk drive, what kinds 
> of floppy disks are useable, incremental pedaling,
> upgradeable flash rom, a 
> tone generator for Ensemble sounds, speakers,
> headphones, Silent System, 
> Smart Key and Piano Smart, a stereo audio system,
> and a CD player.
> 
> 4.	Make sure you are buying a piano constructed for
> the part of the world 
> you will be using it in; i.e. avoid purchasing a
> Gray Market piano.  If you 
> live in North America, you don\ufffdt want a piano
> designed soley for an Asian 
> climate.  Most homes in North America have a forced
> air heating system so 
> the relative humidity can get as low as 10%rh in the
> winter. If the piano 
> was contructed from wood with 12% moisture content,
> instead of a 5% moisture 
> content there is a risk of the piano changing
> radical dimensions during 
> seasonal changes.  This can result in the finish
> cracking and falling off 
> the cabinet, the soundboard flattening during the
> dry season, the pinblock 
> not holding the tuning pins tight enough to hold a
> tuning, and the piano 
> action being plagued by intermittent sticking keys. 
> The electronics may 
> also not be UL approved, so no vendor in their right
> mind will risk a 
> product liability lawsuit to sell you replacement
> parts.
> 
> 5.	Remember that the lowest price is not always the
> best value.  Buying an 
> instrument from a local vendor not only puts your
> sales taxes to work in 
> your own community, but gives someone else in your
> locality a vested 
> interest in your satisfaction.  It is certainly
> easier for a vendor to sell 
> a piano (sometimes still in its original packing
> crate) far, far away if it 
> fell off the fork lift than to be responsible for
> its performance locally!  
> Moving companies, or their agents, are also a source
> of \ufffdgood deals\ufffd.  Many 
> times a long-distance moving company will claim to
> have expertise moving 
> pianos only to send out an inexperienced crew. 
> Pianos are dropped on steps 
> all the time and a good polyester touch-up man can
> hide such damage well.
> 
> 6.	How many of you are still using your IBM 8088
> computers \ufffd you know, the 
> ones with 64k ram?  Before CD players were invented?
>  1987 does not sound 
> like a very long time in the past, but in the world
> of electronics it is 
> ancient history.  Neither pianos, nor the disk
> drives on Disklaviers, will 
> last forever.  You should factor in the cost or
> repairs when buying an older 
> model.  A new floppy drive will cost at least $300,
> and the retail price of 
> the DSR1 upgrade (tone generator, plays all standard
> MIDI files on both HD 
> and DD disks, memory) is $1295.  The cost of the CD
> player is $1295 and it 
> still does not do PianoSmart.  And those are just
> for starters.
> 
> 7.	Perhaps it is helpful to think of buying a
> piano/Disklavier in the same 
> terms as buying a car.  They cost about the same
> amount of money.  Cars all 
> have 4 tires, brakes and steering, and an engine,
> and they don\ufffdt last 
> forever. But there is an incredible range of 
> options available.  Buying a 
> used Disklavier can be like buying a Mercedes with 
> 150,000 miles on it.  
> Buyer Beware.
> 
> 
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online  
>
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:  
> disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's
> founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated
> 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content
> and links to midi sites among many other things, The
> url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are
> getting too much mail, go the the web site and
> change your email delivery option instead.  That
> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access
> to the group.  If you insist on leaving us
> completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a
> blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this
> link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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http://platinum.yahoo.com

I don't disagree with anything you said!  I will admit though, that I never 
met anyone who bought used to get "more" features! I think every instrument, 
new or used, should be evaluated for its value for the use it is purchased.  
I admit that my remarks are slanted to those who consider price formost; 
think that a piano delivered in the original shipping crate is better than 
one that has been "opened"; or think something that has been used well is 
"just as good as new".  I am also aware that there are many good deals out 
there, both new and used!

My comments are meant to help people think about their expectations before 
they buy. I don't think people deserve to be ripped-off even if their 
thought processes invite it. American consumer culture often feels that 
"used" is as good as new, or they are getting a better deal if they buy 
something out of a truck parked in an armory parking lot; a college or 
university 'sale' where the pianos have supposedly been maintained, rather 
than just walking into a showroom and driving a hard bargain with the 
salesperson.  Americans don't really like to haggle prices face-to-face, so 
they believe the ads and sale tickets.

Buying a used Disklavier is also like buying a used car!  I think our 
Commodore 64 still works but it's nothing like the new Evo!


Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...





>From: "woof" <woof@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Buying a Used Disklaver
>Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:41:56 -0500
>
>Carol,
>
>You know, your opinions don't seem crusty... but they are a bit
>biased in one direction.  Let me toss out a few salient, and almost
>too-obvious points for consideration on the other side... point by
>point to yours...
>
>0 - Buying used isn't always to 'save a little money'.  Sometimes one
>buys used to get more features and a better quality for the SAME
>money as one would spend new.  That is, to follow your analogy,
>one might spend $15k on a new Ford Probe base vehicle, vs spending
>the same $15k on a used Lincoln or Caddy.  In your analogy, one
>concludes your recommendation to buy the Probe.... I'd disagree.
>
>1 - See before you buy..... Absolutely!  I know when we went and
>purchased our Steinway, we spent hours playing, feeling the action,
>hearing the sounds.... making sure the highs were as bright as what
>we wanted without loosing the lows.....   Cleary, to me at least,
>buying an instrument without playing it, hearing it, seeing it first
>is un-fathomable...  When you buy used - you can arrange to see/hear
>etc.  Yet when you buy new... I keep coming across those who
>'ordered' their new grand... and '..it will be coming in x months....'
>Absolutely not!  A fine used Strad, Steinway - or Yamaha that I can
>hear, touch, feel and play wins out well over a new 'ordered' instrument.
>
>2 - Great idea - and we agree.  ALWAYS have your purchase checked
>out by a knowledgeable and experienced set of eyes and hands.  I would
>maintain this to be required be it OLD or NEW... used or factory order.
>We agree - no impact on new vs used choice.
>
>3 - Features?  Absolutely!  Again, note my comment at the top regarding
>why used....   One could find a used Grand vs a new upright....   Not only
>should you know what you are getting - but know what you need / want.
>Again, I'd posit not an impact on the new vs used choice.
>
>4 - Gray market and US targeted instrument:  Absolutely!  Once again,
>like buying a car in Mexico and bringing it back to the US... not quite!!
>What ever is bought should be purpose built...  we agree, but again, not
>a new vs used....  It is just as 'easy' to find a gray market 'new' piano 
>that
>bypassed the system.  Check those serial and references; new or used!!
>
>5 - Low price isn't always best!  -Wow, again we agree!  Your example
>of the piano in a its original packing crate is perfect!  Oh, that's a 
>reason
>not to buy new, un played, un heard, un seen....  Sorry!  One for the used 
>side!
>
>6 - 1987 Intel 8088... Well, actually, the 8088 was back earlier than
>1987.  Today, a new DD floppy can be found for under $100.  Yes, the
>DSR1 upgrade has a list price of $1295... but who pays list (I bought
>my DSR1 for $250... (oh yes, it was used... and I still have it running
>a few years later!).  Again, I'd urge see #3 above... know thy features!
>Are you looking for an electronic piano that happens to have an
>acoustic capability??? or an Acoustic that has some electronic????
>
>7 - See the top....Your analogy is great.... Buying the Mercedes with
>150,000 miles for an S type Diesel for the same price as a new
>C190??  Me, I'd opt for the S500 Diesel, after I'd seen it.
>
>BUT - I think we agree on this;  in either case, new or used, the
>dealer honesty, the dealer service capability and the availability of a 
>good top notch technician BEFORE and AFTER the sale makes or
>breaks
>a happy long term marriage.
>
>Just my thoughts - on the other side!
>
>Ed
>The Old Mercedes Guy.....
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:42 PM
>Subject: [disklavier] Buying a Used Disklaver
>
>
>| I know my opinions may seem a little crusty at times when it comes to 
>buying
>| used Disklaviers and/or used pianos in general, but after 23 years of
>| dealing with the tears and unmet expectations of purchasers trying to 
>save a
>| little money, I would like to say a few things.
>|
>| 1. If possible, go in person to play and hear the piano before you buy 
>it.
>| Not all pianos play and sound alike.  Basically, what you hear and see is
>| what you get.  If you don't like the tuning or voicing, and these things
>| cannot be adjusted on the spot as you watch to your liking, chances are 
>the
>| situation won't be much better in your living room.  If you decide to buy
>| the instrument, get the serial number on the purchase agreement.
>|
>| 2. If you are buying the piano from a distant vendor, and cannot evaluate 
>it
>| yourself, hire a Registered Piano Technician to check it out first.  Not 
>all
>| piano technicians are familiar with Disklaviers, so talk about this 
>first.
>| You can get a list of Registered Piano Technicians from www.ptg.org or 
>call
>| Yamaha at 1-800-854-1569 to recommend someone in your area.  Have the
>| technician supply you with the serial number.
>|
>| 3. Make sure you know exactly what features you are getting.  You can 
>always
>| post to this website and get an answer as to what the various models
>| include.  Basically it comes down to how much you want to mess around 
>trying
>| to do what you want to do.  The oldest and most basic Disklaviers will 
>play
>| the piano from floppy disks you buy from Yamaha and will play standard 
>MIDI
>| files from an attached computer.  Everything else is optional or is 
>included
>| in a succesion of upgraded models.  Extra features include whether or not
>| the DKV will play standard MIDI files from the floppy disk drive, what 
>kinds
>| of floppy disks are useable, incremental pedaling, upgradeable flash rom, 
>a
>| tone generator for Ensemble sounds, speakers, headphones, Silent System,
>| Smart Key and Piano Smart, a stereo audio system, and a CD player.
>|
>| 4. Make sure you are buying a piano constructed for the part of the world
>| you will be using it in; i.e. avoid purchasing a Gray Market piano.  If 
>you
>| live in North America, you don't want a piano designed soley for an Asian
>| climate.  Most homes in North America have a forced air heating system so
>| the relative humidity can get as low as 10%rh in the winter. If the piano
>| was contructed from wood with 12% moisture content, instead of a 5% 
>moisture
>| content there is a risk of the piano changing radical dimensions during
>| seasonal changes.  This can result in the finish cracking and falling off
>| the cabinet, the soundboard flattening during the dry season, the 
>pinblock
>| not holding the tuning pins tight enough to hold a tuning, and the piano
>| action being plagued by intermittent sticking keys.  The electronics may
>| also not be UL approved, so no vendor in their right mind will risk a
>| product liability lawsuit to sell you replacement parts.
>|
>| 5. Remember that the lowest price is not always the best value.  Buying 
>an
>| instrument from a local vendor not only puts your sales taxes to work in
>| your own community, but gives someone else in your locality a vested
>| interest in your satisfaction.  It is certainly easier for a vendor to 
>sell
>| a piano (sometimes still in its original packing crate) far, far away if 
>it
>| fell off the fork lift than to be responsible for its performance 
>locally!
>| Moving companies, or their agents, are also a source of "good deals".  
>Many
>| times a long-distance moving company will claim to have expertise moving
>| pianos only to send out an inexperienced crew.  Pianos are dropped on 
>steps
>| all the time and a good polyester touch-up man can hide such damage well.
>|
>| 6. How many of you are still using your IBM 8088 computers - you know, 
>the
>| ones with 64k ram?  Before CD players were invented?  1987 does not sound
>| like a very long time in the past, but in the world of electronics it is
>| ancient history.  Neither pianos, nor the disk drives on Disklaviers, 
>will
>| last forever.  You should factor in the cost or repairs when buying an 
>older
>| model.  A new floppy drive will cost at least $300, and the retail price 
>of
>| the DSR1 upgrade (tone generator, plays all standard MIDI files on both 
>HD
>| and DD disks, memory) is $1295.  The cost of the CD player is $1295 and 
>it
>| still does not do PianoSmart.  And those are just for starters.
>|
>| 7. Perhaps it is helpful to think of buying a piano/Disklavier in the 
>same
>| terms as buying a car.  They cost about the same amount of money.  Cars 
>all
>| have 4 tires, brakes and steering, and an engine, and they don't last
>| forever. But there is an incredible range of  options available.  Buying 
>a
>| used Disklavier can be like buying a Mercedes with  150,000 miles on it.
>| Buyer Beware.
>|
>|
>| Carol Beigel
>| crbrpt@...
>|
>|
>|
>|
>| _________________________________________________________________
>| Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
>| http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>|
>|
>|
>| To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>|
>| To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
>moderator, send it to:
>| disklavier-owner@...
>|
>| To reach our group's web site go to:
>| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>|
>| Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some 
>fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among
>many other things, The url is:
>| http://MuncyFamily.com
>|
>| THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>| If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much 
>mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
>option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access 
>to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send
>a blank email to:
>| disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>|
>| Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>| disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>|
>|
>| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>|
>|
>


_________________________________________________________________
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Surely I don't fit the profile of Yamaha's target consumer. I don't care 
a hoot for XG capability, PianoSmart, or playing audio CDs on my piano. 
  Primarily, I want an acoustic piano that I can play, and one that will 
accurately record and reproduce.  I'm not at all keen on paying for 
gimmicks that hold no interest.  Perhaps there are a few other oddballs 
out there like me.

The analogy of pianos to automobiles is deceptive, I feel.  My DC3 Mark 
II out of the box was rather dull sounding until my RPT spent hours 
voicing it to my taste.  If I were in the market for a piano, I would 
sooner buy the one I now own than a new one of the same model.

Pianos can last for years--even centuries.  Their design allows them to 
be repaired or completely rebuilt. Many are improved over the original. 
One of the members of this group owns a beautiful 1886 Faust-Harrison 
Model D Steinway.  With its new Renner action and custom wound bass 
strings, it is a fantastic instrument.

While your budget may preclude a Model D, there is nothing wrong, in my 
view, in considering the price and value of a used instrument--even if 
repairs will be needed.  As others have aptly pointed out, you'll want 
to have any used instrument thoroughly evaluated.  By buying exactly 
what you want in a used instrument, you may be able to get more for your 
money than a fresh wood scent and features that you don't care about in 
a new piano.



Carol Beigel wrote:
> I don't disagree with anything you said!  I will admit though, that I never 
> met anyone who bought used to get "more" features! I think every instrument, 
> new or used, should be evaluated for its value for the use it is purchased.  
> I admit that my remarks are slanted to those who consider price formost; 
> think that a piano delivered in the original shipping crate is better than 
> one that has been "opened"; or think something that has been used well is 
> "just as good as new".  I am also aware that there are many good deals out 
> there, both new and used!
> 
> My comments are meant to help people think about their expectations before 
> they buy. I don't think people deserve to be ripped-off even if their 
> thought processes invite it. American consumer culture often feels that 
> "used" is as good as new, or they are getting a better deal if they buy 
> something out of a truck parked in an armory parking lot; a college or 
> university 'sale' where the pianos have supposedly been maintained, rather 
> than just walking into a showroom and driving a hard bargain with the 
> salesperson.  Americans don't really like to haggle prices face-to-face, so 
> they believe the ads and sale tickets.
> 
> Buying a used Disklavier is also like buying a used car!  I think our 
> Commodore 64 still works but it's nothing like the new Evo!
> 
> 
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>From: "woof" <woof@...>
>>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>>Subject: Re: [disklavier] Buying a Used Disklaver
>>Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:41:56 -0500
>>
>>Carol,
>>
>>You know, your opinions don't seem crusty... but they are a bit
>>biased in one direction.  Let me toss out a few salient, and almost
>>too-obvious points for consideration on the other side... point by
>>point to yours...
>>
>>0 - Buying used isn't always to 'save a little money'.  Sometimes one
>>buys used to get more features and a better quality for the SAME
>>money as one would spend new.  That is, to follow your analogy,
>>one might spend $15k on a new Ford Probe base vehicle, vs spending
>>the same $15k on a used Lincoln or Caddy.  In your analogy, one
>>concludes your recommendation to buy the Probe.... I'd disagree.
>>
>>1 - See before you buy..... Absolutely!  I know when we went and
>>purchased our Steinway, we spent hours playing, feeling the action,
>>hearing the sounds.... making sure the highs were as bright as what
>>we wanted without loosing the lows.....   Cleary, to me at least,
>>buying an instrument without playing it, hearing it, seeing it first
>>is un-fathomable...  When you buy used - you can arrange to see/hear
>>etc.  Yet when you buy new... I keep coming across those who
>>'ordered' their new grand... and '..it will be coming in x months....'
>>Absolutely not!  A fine used Strad, Steinway - or Yamaha that I can
>>hear, touch, feel and play wins out well over a new 'ordered' instrument.
>>
>>2 - Great idea - and we agree.  ALWAYS have your purchase checked
>>out by a knowledgeable and experienced set of eyes and hands.  I would
>>maintain this to be required be it OLD or NEW... used or factory order.
>>We agree - no impact on new vs used choice.
>>
>>3 - Features?  Absolutely!  Again, note my comment at the top regarding
>>why used....   One could find a used Grand vs a new upright....   Not only
>>should you know what you are getting - but know what you need / want.
>>Again, I'd posit not an impact on the new vs used choice.
>>
>>4 - Gray market and US targeted instrument:  Absolutely!  Once again,
>>like buying a car in Mexico and bringing it back to the US... not quite!!
>>What ever is bought should be purpose built...  we agree, but again, not
>>a new vs used....  It is just as 'easy' to find a gray market 'new' piano 
>>that
>>bypassed the system.  Check those serial and references; new or used!!
>>
>>5 - Low price isn't always best!  -Wow, again we agree!  Your example
>>of the piano in a its original packing crate is perfect!  Oh, that's a 
>>reason
>>not to buy new, un played, un heard, un seen....  Sorry!  One for the used 
>>side!
>>
>>6 - 1987 Intel 8088... Well, actually, the 8088 was back earlier than
>>1987.  Today, a new DD floppy can be found for under $100.  Yes, the
>>DSR1 upgrade has a list price of $1295... but who pays list (I bought
>>my DSR1 for $250... (oh yes, it was used... and I still have it running
>>a few years later!).  Again, I'd urge see #3 above... know thy features!
>>Are you looking for an electronic piano that happens to have an
>>acoustic capability??? or an Acoustic that has some electronic????
>>
>>7 - See the top....Your analogy is great.... Buying the Mercedes with
>>150,000 miles for an S type Diesel for the same price as a new
>>C190??  Me, I'd opt for the S500 Diesel, after I'd seen it.
>>
>>BUT - I think we agree on this;  in either case, new or used, the
>>dealer honesty, the dealer service capability and the availability of a 
>>good top notch technician BEFORE and AFTER the sale makes or
>>breaks
>>a happy long term marriage.
>>
>>Just my thoughts - on the other side!
>>
>>Ed
>>The Old Mercedes Guy.....
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
>>To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 2:42 PM
>>Subject: [disklavier] Buying a Used Disklaver
>>
>>
>>| I know my opinions may seem a little crusty at times when it comes to 
>>buying
>>| used Disklaviers and/or used pianos in general, but after 23 years of
>>| dealing with the tears and unmet expectations of purchasers trying to 
>>save a
>>| little money, I would like to say a few things.
>>|
>>| 1. If possible, go in person to play and hear the piano before you buy 
>>it.
>>| Not all pianos play and sound alike.  Basically, what you hear and see is
>>| what you get.  If you don't like the tuning or voicing, and these things
>>| cannot be adjusted on the spot as you watch to your liking, chances are 
>>the
>>| situation won't be much better in your living room.  If you decide to buy
>>| the instrument, get the serial number on the purchase agreement.
>>|
>>| 2. If you are buying the piano from a distant vendor, and cannot evaluate 
>>it
>>| yourself, hire a Registered Piano Technician to check it out first.  Not 
>>all
>>| piano technicians are familiar with Disklaviers, so talk about this 
>>first.
>>| You can get a list of Registered Piano Technicians from www.ptg.org or 
>>call
>>| Yamaha at 1-800-854-1569 to recommend someone in your area.  Have the
>>| technician supply you with the serial number.
>>|
>>| 3. Make sure you know exactly what features you are getting.  You can 
>>always
>>| post to this website and get an answer as to what the various models
>>| include.  Basically it comes down to how much you want to mess around 
>>trying
>>| to do what you want to do.  The oldest and most basic Disklaviers will 
>>play
>>| the piano from floppy disks you buy from Yamaha and will play standard 
>>MIDI
>>| files from an attached computer.  Everything else is optional or is 
>>included
>>| in a succesion of upgraded models.  Extra features include whether or not
>>| the DKV will play standard MIDI files from the floppy disk drive, what 
>>kinds
>>| of floppy disks are useable, incremental pedaling, upgradeable flash rom, 
>>a
>>| tone generator for Ensemble sounds, speakers, headphones, Silent System,
>>| Smart Key and Piano Smart, a stereo audio system, and a CD player.
>>|
>>| 4. Make sure you are buying a piano constructed for the part of the world
>>| you will be using it in; i.e. avoid purchasing a Gray Market piano.  If 
>>you
>>| live in North America, you don't want a piano designed soley for an Asian
>>| climate.  Most homes in North America have a forced air heating system so
>>| the relative humidity can get as low as 10%rh in the winter. If the piano
>>| was contructed from wood with 12% moisture content, instead of a 5% 
>>moisture
>>| content there is a risk of the piano changing radical dimensions during
>>| seasonal changes.  This can result in the finish cracking and falling off
>>| the cabinet, the soundboard flattening during the dry season, the 
>>pinblock
>>| not holding the tuning pins tight enough to hold a tuning, and the piano
>>| action being plagued by intermittent sticking keys.  The electronics may
>>| also not be UL approved, so no vendor in their right mind will risk a
>>| product liability lawsuit to sell you replacement parts.
>>|
>>| 5. Remember that the lowest price is not always the best value.  Buying 
>>an
>>| instrument from a local vendor not only puts your sales taxes to work in
>>| your own community, but gives someone else in your locality a vested
>>| interest in your satisfaction.  It is certainly easier for a vendor to 
>>sell
>>| a piano (sometimes still in its original packing crate) far, far away if 
>>it
>>| fell off the fork lift than to be responsible for its performance 
>>locally!
>>| Moving companies, or their agents, are also a source of "good deals".  
>>Many
>>| times a long-distance moving company will claim to have expertise moving
>>| pianos only to send out an inexperienced crew.  Pianos are dropped on 
>>steps
>>| all the time and a good polyester touch-up man can hide such damage well.
>>|
>>| 6. How many of you are still using your IBM 8088 computers - you know, 
>>the
>>| ones with 64k ram?  Before CD players were invented?  1987 does not sound
>>| like a very long time in the past, but in the world of electronics it is
>>| ancient history.  Neither pianos, nor the disk drives on Disklaviers, 
>>will
>>| last forever.  You should factor in the cost or repairs when buying an 
>>older
>>| model.  A new floppy drive will cost at least $300, and the retail price 
>>of
>>| the DSR1 upgrade (tone generator, plays all standard MIDI files on both 
>>HD
>>| and DD disks, memory) is $1295.  The cost of the CD player is $1295 and 
>>it
>>| still does not do PianoSmart.  And those are just for starters.
>>|
>>| 7. Perhaps it is helpful to think of buying a piano/Disklavier in the 
>>same
>>| terms as buying a car.  They cost about the same amount of money.  Cars 
>>all
>>| have 4 tires, brakes and steering, and an engine, and they don't last
>>| forever. But there is an incredible range of  options available.  Buying 
>>a
>>| used Disklavier can be like buying a Mercedes with  150,000 miles on it.
>>| Buyer Beware.
>>|
>>|
>>| Carol Beigel
>>| crbrpt@...
>>|
>>|
>>|
>>|
>>| _________________________________________________________________
>>| Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
>>| http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>>|
>>|
>>|
>>| To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>>|
>>| To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
>>moderator, send it to:
>>| disklavier-owner@...
>>|
>>| To reach our group's web site go to:
>>| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>>|
>>| Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some 
>>fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among
>>many other things, The url is:
>>| http://MuncyFamily.com
>>|
>>| THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>>| If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much 
>>mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery
>>option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access 
>>to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send
>>a blank email to:
>>| disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>>|
>>| Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>>| disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>>| http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>>|
>>|
>>| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>|
>>|
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 
> 
> 
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> 
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
> 
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> 
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com 
> 
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
> 
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Hi,
I am a purchaser of a used Disklavier MX100A for which I paid $5,000 four
years ago. I always wanted to get a Disklavier but could not justify
spending the $10,00 for one. I needed a piano so my older daughter could
start piano lessons and I figured it was a good time to get the disklavier
I wanted at the price of a new upright Yamaha no-frills model. I have been
very happy with the piano. I have used it to listen to Pianosoft disks and
recently my daughter started playing Bach Inventions and Sonatinas which
are available as Piano Study disks. These are very helpful because as she
is learning the pieces, you can slow them down and she can get the feel of
the piece with the right dynamics and flow of the piece.
So all my goals were met and although the new added bells and whistles
would be great, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course I purchased
the piano from someone in the same city and went to his house for a demo
before buying it. There were a few minor cosmetic dings but the sound is
excellent and I paid professional piano movers to move it across town. Be
sure to get professional movers to move the piano. Your buddies may mean
well but who is left with the $5000 broken piano if they drop it? 
If you can afford to buy a new piano and want all the latest technology I
would buy it over a used one. If your purpose is to have a nice piano for
your children to learn on with the added feature of playback, a used one
would be fine as long as you audition it and have it checked out before
you buy.
Victor

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