Disklavier

Hello all,

I've been seriously considering buying a new disklavier for the last few
months, and have just about sorted what parts of my body I am going to
have to sell in order to pay for it - and I'm in the UK so I expect to get
ripped off.

When I went to look at them I had the chance to buy a new end-of-line
MPX1Z for just under 6,500 UKP (10,000 USD) including a DCD1. The retail
price of a DU1A is 8,499 UKP iirc (13,300 USD), and I would expect to get
between 1000 and 1500 UKP off this (1500 to 2500 USD).

From what the kind people on this list and the DUG list have told me it
seems the main differences between the two are:

1. The DU1A will require me to sell more body parts on the black market.

2. The DU1A has dual beam sensing on the hammers, whereas the MPX1Z has
   single point.

3. The DU1A has full stereo CD playback with pianosmart, whereas the MPX1Z
   doesn't support this yet, and will be mono if/when it does get this
   functionality ?

4. The DU1A has the CD player integrated.

5. The DU1A has speaker outputs on the piano itself.

So some questions:

  i) Is there anything I've missed ?

 ii) Are the samples used in the silent section the same (and the XG
     sounds?)

iii) Is the basic piano the same - i.e. did Yamaha improve the U1 between
     1999 and now ? Do they both have soft-close fallboards for example?

iv)  I primarily want the piano to play myself as an acoustic, with silent
     capability - but I can see the disklavier part being very useful to
     me over the years, especially the ability to record performances for
     later playback. With this in mind, which should I buy?

Thanks muchly,

James

The MPX1Z is a MarkIIXG Disklavier with a Silent System on a U1 piano.  The 
DU1A is the same exact piano with a MarkIII Disklavier.  The only difference 
is in the Audio, not the MIDI properties.

It comes down to what extent you want to hear someone singing while your 
piano is playing.  If you really want to hear real stereo, not double 
monoaural, or hear your piano play along with a commercially available CD, 
then the DU1A is for you. It is possible that there will be a PianoSmart 
upgrade to the older system next year.

The other thing to check out, possibly, although I am under the impression 
the effect is identical, is how quietly you can get the audio sound.  I am 
under the impression that you can put both models into Silent Mode, (turn 
off the keys), and run the output through the audio - piano, emsemble and 
singing. However, in any case, the piano sound is tone-generated and not the 
sound of the piano strings when in Silent Mode.  This is not even a concern 
unless you intend to have a dinner party close to the piano, and want to 
engage in quiet conversation while the piano is playing!

However, both  models record and playback the piano equally.  The Ensemble 
sounds will be identical.  Only the singing will be different.


Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...

<snip>

iv)  I primarily want the piano to play myself as an acoustic, with silent
>      capability - but I can see the disklavier part being very useful to
>      me over the years, especially the ability to record performances for
>      later playback. With this in mind, which should I buy?
>
>Thanks muchly,
>
>James
>


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The other thing I forgot to mention, and this can be important to some, is 
the matter of the memory disks.  The MarkIIXG has one memory disk built-in.  
That means it hold the contents of one floppy disk in memory - whether you 
record the songs yourself or copy them into memory from PianoSoft disks, or 
internet downloads.  The MarkIII has 16 of these memory disks built in.


Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...


>From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] DU1A vs MPX1Z
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:37:07 -0500
>
>The MPX1Z is a MarkIIXG Disklavier with a Silent System on a U1 piano.  The
>DU1A is the same exact piano with a MarkIII Disklavier.  The only 
>difference
>is in the Audio, not the MIDI properties.
>
>It comes down to what extent you want to hear someone singing while your
>piano is playing.  If you really want to hear real stereo, not double
>monoaural, or hear your piano play along with a commercially available CD,
>then the DU1A is for you. It is possible that there will be a PianoSmart
>upgrade to the older system next year.
>
>The other thing to check out, possibly, although I am under the impression
>the effect is identical, is how quietly you can get the audio sound.  I am
>under the impression that you can put both models into Silent Mode, (turn
>off the keys), and run the output through the audio - piano, emsemble and
>singing. However, in any case, the piano sound is tone-generated and not 
>the
>sound of the piano strings when in Silent Mode.  This is not even a concern
>unless you intend to have a dinner party close to the piano, and want to
>engage in quiet conversation while the piano is playing!
>
>However, both  models record and playback the piano equally.  The Ensemble
>sounds will be identical.  Only the singing will be different.
>
>
>Carol Beigel
>crbrpt@...
>
><snip>
>
>iv)  I primarily want the piano to play myself as an acoustic, with silent
> >      capability - but I can see the disklavier part being very useful to
> >      me over the years, especially the ability to record performances 
>for
> >      later playback. With this in mind, which should I buy?
> >
> >Thanks muchly,
> >
> >James
> >
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>


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Thank you very much for the information Carol. Another couple of
questions though :)

1) How much difference does the dual beam vs single beam sensing make to
   recordings? Does it record both velocities, or just use the two beams
   to work out a single escape velocity?

2) You say the output of the CD on the Mark IIXG (the MPX1Z) is dual
   monoaural - does this apply to normal commercial audio CD's played back
   in the machine too ? Is there a balance control on any of the CD
   functions (I ask this because I would like to practice along to Jamey
   Aebersold CD's and want to fade out the piano on the recording).

Thankyou very much,

James

----- James R Fry - email/MSN james.fry@... - ICQ 4607456 -----
------------------ "Those who can't write, write manuals" ------------------

On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:

> The other thing I forgot to mention, and this can be important to some, is
> the matter of the memory disks.  The MarkIIXG has one memory disk built-in.
> That means it hold the contents of one floppy disk in memory - whether you
> record the songs yourself or copy them into memory from PianoSoft disks, or
> internet downloads.  The MarkIII has 16 of these memory disks built in.
>
>
> Carol Beigel
> crbrpt@...
>
>
> >From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
> >Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [disklavier] DU1A vs MPX1Z
> >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:37:07 -0500
> >
> >The MPX1Z is a MarkIIXG Disklavier with a Silent System on a U1 piano.  The
> >DU1A is the same exact piano with a MarkIII Disklavier.  The only
> >difference
> >is in the Audio, not the MIDI properties.
> >
> >It comes down to what extent you want to hear someone singing while your
> >piano is playing.  If you really want to hear real stereo, not double
> >monoaural, or hear your piano play along with a commercially available CD,
> >then the DU1A is for you. It is possible that there will be a PianoSmart
> >upgrade to the older system next year.
> >
> >The other thing to check out, possibly, although I am under the impression
> >the effect is identical, is how quietly you can get the audio sound.  I am
> >under the impression that you can put both models into Silent Mode, (turn
> >off the keys), and run the output through the audio - piano, emsemble and
> >singing. However, in any case, the piano sound is tone-generated and not
> >the
> >sound of the piano strings when in Silent Mode.  This is not even a concern
> >unless you intend to have a dinner party close to the piano, and want to
> >engage in quiet conversation while the piano is playing!
> >
> >However, both  models record and playback the piano equally.  The Ensemble
> >sounds will be identical.  Only the singing will be different.
> >
> >
> >Carol Beigel
> >crbrpt@...
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >iv)  I primarily want the piano to play myself as an acoustic, with silent
> > >      capability - but I can see the disklavier part being very useful to
> > >      me over the years, especially the ability to record performances
> >for
> > >      later playback. With this in mind, which should I buy?
> > >
> > >Thanks muchly,
> > >
> > >James
> > >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I think Pianobench needs to step in here.  My impression is that the 
recordings are the same.  I know the MarkIIXG used beams from both the key 
and hammer sensors.  Since I have not actually seen a DU1A I do not know if 
it uses only the key sensors to record.  There is probably no difference.

As to the CD output, remember, the DCD1 is an add-on CD player to a MarkIIXG 
system.  Unless it is also hooked up to a stereo system, the output is 
double monoaural for the MIDI.  I don't think this system even plays Yamaha 
CDs.  Hope I am wrong.

Most questions about audio put me out of my league.  Because the Disklavier 
is a hybrid instrument, it often requires two technicians with different 
backgrounds for servicing.  I can take care of the piano and MIDI functions, 
but someone else takes care of the audio amplifiers and systems.

I do know that the MarkIII grand pianos have built-in stereo amplifiers and 
speakers.  I think the DU1A also has these features.  If it is really 
important for you to record your piano playing along with a commercial CD 
(PianoSmart) you definitely need a MarkIII system.  Something about MIDI 
Time Code.

I was playing with Power Tracks Pro Audio 8 last night on my computer, from 
www.pgmusic.com $29, and was easily able to get a MIDI recording made from 
my MarkIIXG Disklavier to render to a .wav file that I could burn to a CD.  
I was shocked at the ease and quality!  This program also mixes audio with 
MIDI, so perhaps you too could use software like this to fade out the piano 
(MIDI) when recording with an audio CD. I am not an expert in these matters, 
but they are certainly fun to play with.  My interest in learning to do this 
is that a piano teacher who owns a MarkIII wants to find a cheap and easy 
way for her students to make CDs of their piano playing to give as gifts.

I keep sounding like a broken record, but keep asking questions.. Make sure 
you know what you are getting AND what you are NOT getting BEFORE you buy!  
Good luck!!!!


Carol Beigel
crbrpt@...


>From: James Fry <linx@...>
>Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [disklavier] DU1A vs MPX1Z
>Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 01:14:32 +0000 (GMT)
>
>Thank you very much for the information Carol. Another couple of
>questions though :)
>
>1) How much difference does the dual beam vs single beam sensing make to
>    recordings? Does it record both velocities, or just use the two beams
>    to work out a single escape velocity?
>
>2) You say the output of the CD on the Mark IIXG (the MPX1Z) is dual
>    monoaural - does this apply to normal commercial audio CD's played back
>    in the machine too ? Is there a balance control on any of the CD
>    functions (I ask this because I would like to practice along to Jamey
>    Aebersold CD's and want to fade out the piano on the recording).
>
>Thankyou very much,
>
>James
>
>----- James R Fry - email/MSN james.fry@... - ICQ 4607456 
>-----
>------------------ "Those who can't write, write manuals" 
>------------------
>
>On Wed, 26 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
>
> > The other thing I forgot to mention, and this can be important to some, 
>is
> > the matter of the memory disks.  The MarkIIXG has one memory disk 
>built-in.
> > That means it hold the contents of one floppy disk in memory - whether 
>you
> > record the songs yourself or copy them into memory from PianoSoft disks, 
>or
> > internet downloads.  The MarkIII has 16 of these memory disks built in.
> >
> >
> > Carol Beigel
> > crbrpt@...
> >
> >
> > >From: "Carol Beigel" <carolrpt@...>
> > >Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: [disklavier] DU1A vs MPX1Z
> > >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:37:07 -0500
> > >
> > >The MPX1Z is a MarkIIXG Disklavier with a Silent System on a U1 piano.  
>The
> > >DU1A is the same exact piano with a MarkIII Disklavier.  The only
> > >difference
> > >is in the Audio, not the MIDI properties.
> > >
> > >It comes down to what extent you want to hear someone singing while 
>your
> > >piano is playing.  If you really want to hear real stereo, not double
> > >monoaural, or hear your piano play along with a commercially available 
>CD,
> > >then the DU1A is for you. It is possible that there will be a 
>PianoSmart
> > >upgrade to the older system next year.
> > >
> > >The other thing to check out, possibly, although I am under the 
>impression
> > >the effect is identical, is how quietly you can get the audio sound.  I 
>am
> > >under the impression that you can put both models into Silent Mode, 
>(turn
> > >off the keys), and run the output through the audio - piano, emsemble 
>and
> > >singing. However, in any case, the piano sound is tone-generated and 
>not
> > >the
> > >sound of the piano strings when in Silent Mode.  This is not even a 
>concern
> > >unless you intend to have a dinner party close to the piano, and want 
>to
> > >engage in quiet conversation while the piano is playing!
> > >
> > >However, both  models record and playback the piano equally.  The 
>Ensemble
> > >sounds will be identical.  Only the singing will be different.
> > >
> > >
> > >Carol Beigel
> > >crbrpt@...
> > >
> > ><snip>
> > >
> > >iv)  I primarily want the piano to play myself as an acoustic, with 
>silent
> > > >      capability - but I can see the disklavier part being very 
>useful to
> > > >      me over the years, especially the ability to record 
>performances
> > >for
> > > >      later playback. With this in mind, which should I buy?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks muchly,
> > > >
> > > >James
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
> >
> > To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
> >
> > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and 
>moderator, send it to:
> > disklavier-owner@...
> >
> > To reach our group's web site go to:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
> >
> > Todd's family web site was completely updated 01/15/03.  It contains 
>some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other 
>things, The url is:
> > http://MuncyFamily.com
> >
> > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much 
>mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  
>That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If 
>you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>


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On Thu, 27 Mar 2003, Carol Beigel wrote:
> I think Pianobench needs to step in here.  My impression is that the
> recordings are the same.  I know the MarkIIXG used beams from both the
> key and hammer sensors.  Since I have not actually seen a DU1A I do not
> know if it uses only the key sensors to record.  There is probably no
> difference.

From what I can tell, the DU1A has two beams on each hammer plus the key
sensors, but I was really impressed with the performance of the MPX1Z when
I tried it so I'm not sure if its anything I should worry about. Probably
not.

> As to the CD output, remember, the DCD1 is an add-on CD player to a
> MarkIIXG system.  Unless it is also hooked up to a stereo system, the
> output is double monoaural for the MIDI.  I don't think this system even
> plays Yamaha CDs.  Hope I am wrong.

This probably isn't a problem either; I intend to just play the piano
along with MIDI backings most of the time, often with headphones, and
occasionally use CD's so it's a moot point. Thanks for the clarification
though.

> Most questions about audio put me out of my league.  Because the
> Disklavier is a hybrid instrument, it often requires two technicians
> with different backgrounds for servicing.  I can take care of the piano
> and MIDI functions, but someone else takes care of the audio amplifiers
> and systems.
>
> I do know that the MarkIII grand pianos have built-in stereo amplifiers
> and speakers.  I think the DU1A also has these features.  If it is
> really important for you to record your piano playing along with a
> commercial CD (PianoSmart) you definitely need a MarkIII system.
> Something about MID Time Code.

Yeah - the MTC / audio recording is something I could easily achieve using
a laptop PC though so its not really a problem for me.

The DU1A doesn't have internal speakers, but I think it comes with a pair
of Yamaha powered speakers which are extra on the MPX1Z. Not really an
issue for me - I have a hifi in the room that the disklavier would be
going in.

> I was playing with Power Tracks Pro Audio 8 last night on my computer,
> from www.pgmusic.com $29, and was easily able to get a MIDI recording
> made from my MarkIIXG Disklavier to render to a .wav file that I could
> burn to a CD. I was shocked at the ease and quality!  This program also
> mixes audio with MIDI, so perhaps you too could use software like this
> to fade out the piano (MIDI) when recording with an audio CD. I am not
> an expert in these matters, but they are certainly fun to play with.
> My interest in learning to do this is that a piano teacher who owns a
> MarkIII wants to find a cheap and easy way for her students to make CDs
> of their piano playing to give as gifts.

I've got quite a bit of experience recording - I'm about to have 7th and
8th CDs released which I recorded, although not me playing - so getting
audio recordings of performances isn't a problem. I will take a look at
Power Tracks Pro now though - I've always stayed away from "budget"
software having been unimpressed in the past.

I am a programmer by day, so hopefully once I buy my disklavier I will get
around to writing some software - I've already been looking at writing a
DKVtools alike program to work on Windows NT / 2k / XP as well as 9x/Me.

> I keep sounding like a broken record, but keep asking questions.. Make
> sure you know what you are getting AND what you are NOT getting BEFORE
> you buy!
> Good luck!!!!

Not at all - thankyou very very much for taking the time to answer. While
I have a lot of experience with MIDI and keyboards/modules, I have very
little knowledge of "player pianos".

After reading your mail I spent quite a while on the phone today with a
couple of dealers, and there are major problems getting a DU1A in the UK -
I was quoted 6 to 9 months and told there have only been a couple actually
enter the country. Japan seems to have problems in supplying them, and
this is keep the price right up - nobody will discount what they don't
have in stock.

Essentially it would cost me 2,500UKP more to own a DU1A. Those extra
couple of features are not worth that to me - and in any case I the main
reason for buying one is that it is essentially a U1. Hopefully in the
next few weeks I should own a MPX1Z - I just need to sell my old piano
first to make room for it :(

Thankyou once again,

James