Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-08 by Carl Youngblood
I was wondering if any of you who know about the Mark IV disklaviers could answer a question for me. As I understand it, the Mark IV allows for much more
Thread
Mark IV disklaviers
Re: [disklavier] Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-08 by Bill Brandom
The standard Mark IV performs at virtually the same level as the Mark III PRO. The Mark IV PRO outperforms any reproducing piano ever made. Bill Brandom Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division YAMAHA Corporation of America TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 E-mail: bbrandom@... Web: http://www.yamaha.com >>> carl@... 05/08/05 11:22 AM >>> I was wondering if any of you who know about the Mark IV disklaviers could answer a question for me. As I understand it, the Mark IV allows for much more accurate recording and reproduction than the Mark III. What I'm wondering is if this level of quality approaches the disklavier pro--if not the new pro models, then the older ones. Anyone know? Thanks, Carl Youngblood
Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-15 by sjhart110110
Does the Mark IV play back XP Standard files like the pro? How does the Mark IV (non Pro), store the data to make it "virtually the same as a Mark III pro"? --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brandom" <BBrandom@y...> wrote: > The standard Mark IV performs at virtually the same level as the Mark > III PRO. The Mark IV PRO outperforms any reproducing piano ever made. > > > Bill Brandom > Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division > YAMAHA Corporation of America > TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 > E-mail: bbrandom@y... > Web: http://www.yamaha.com > > >>> carl@y... 05/08/05 11:22 AM >>> > I was wondering if any of you who know about the Mark IV disklaviers > could > answer a question for me. As I understand it, the Mark IV allows for > much > more accurate recording and reproduction than the Mark III. What I'm > wondering is if this level of quality approaches the disklavier pro--if
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> not > the new pro models, then the older ones. Anyone know? > > Thanks, > Carl Youngblood
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-15 by Carl Youngblood
My understanding (please correct me if I m wrong) is that both the Mark III and Mark IV play back PianoSoft discs at similar quality levels--in other words,
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-15 by Bill Brandom
Hello folks, I have reviewed my statement below with our engineers and they have clarified that the standard Mark IV does not playback XP data like the PROs do. Sorry about that. In terms of playing regular MIDI data, the Mark IV plays very close to the same performance level of the Mark III PRO. Bill Brandom Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division YAMAHA Corporation of America TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 E-mail: bbrandom@... Web: http://www.yamaha.com >>> sjhart110@... 05/15/05 4:36 PM >>> Does the Mark IV play back XP Standard files like the pro? How does the Mark IV (non Pro), store the data to make it "virtually the same as a Mark III pro"? --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brandom" <BBrandom@y...> wrote: > The standard Mark IV performs at virtually the same level as the Mark > III PRO. The Mark IV PRO outperforms any reproducing piano ever made. > > > Bill Brandom > Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division > YAMAHA Corporation of America > TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 > E-mail: bbrandom@y... > Web: http://www.yamaha.com > > >>> carl@y... 05/08/05 11:22 AM >>> > I was wondering if any of you who know about the Mark IV disklaviers > could > answer a question for me. As I understand it, the Mark IV allows for > much > more accurate recording and reproduction than the Mark III. What I'm > wondering is if this level of quality approaches the disklavier pro--if > not > the new pro models, then the older ones. Anyone know? > > Thanks, > Carl Youngblood To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: disklavier-owner@... To reach our group's web site go to: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is: http://MuncyFamily.com THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: disklavier-unsubscribe@... Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by Carl Youngblood
Are there very many PianoSoft recordings available out there that are in Midi XP format? I m trying to determine how much I ll be missing out on by getting a
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by Robert Welcyng
Describing a Disklavier's accuracy is not a simple matter. �Errors arise
in both the recording process and, independently, in the reproduction process.
�Further, the inaccuracies occur in both timing and loudness. �To fully characterize
the Disklavier's accuracy, measurements would need to be taken over a full
range of note velocities and across the keyboard. �
From a purely technical viewpoint, to fully appreciate the differences in accuracy of various models of Disklavier, one would need more than some simple figure, say "99% accurate", but numerous graphs of the error distributions. (I'd love to have a set.)
From a practical standpoint, the question� is: Can you detect the differences and how many thousands of dollars would you be willing to pay to make the needed improvement?
Consider this thought experiment: �A renowned pianist plays the same composition on your Disklavier several times in succession--each time perfectly, in your estimation. Both performances connected with your emotions and thrilled you. Were the two performances exactly identical? Probably not--there surely were small differences--after all, the performer is human. Would you tolerate differences of that order or less if they were introduced by your Disklavier--differences that you really could not put your finger on?
One of my Disklavier brochures shows a Disklavier owner and his wife with guests in their paneled living room. �(I love projecting myself into that picture!) �You remember the one--my wife is holding a spray of roses, and we're making charming conversation over coffee while the Disklavier plays. �(Would it be remotely possible to hear a voice over the piano in that cozy room?) �I've just explained to our guests how many BTUs were available for cooking their meal on our wonderful new stove, and now I'm going to amaze them by describing how many bits of resolution are behind each lovely note they are hearing on our piano. �Once they realize that, the music will take on a whole new dimension for them. They will be impressed with us.
Bill Brandom wrote:
From a purely technical viewpoint, to fully appreciate the differences in accuracy of various models of Disklavier, one would need more than some simple figure, say "99% accurate", but numerous graphs of the error distributions. (I'd love to have a set.)
From a practical standpoint, the question� is: Can you detect the differences and how many thousands of dollars would you be willing to pay to make the needed improvement?
Consider this thought experiment: �A renowned pianist plays the same composition on your Disklavier several times in succession--each time perfectly, in your estimation. Both performances connected with your emotions and thrilled you. Were the two performances exactly identical? Probably not--there surely were small differences--after all, the performer is human. Would you tolerate differences of that order or less if they were introduced by your Disklavier--differences that you really could not put your finger on?
One of my Disklavier brochures shows a Disklavier owner and his wife with guests in their paneled living room. �(I love projecting myself into that picture!) �You remember the one--my wife is holding a spray of roses, and we're making charming conversation over coffee while the Disklavier plays. �(Would it be remotely possible to hear a voice over the piano in that cozy room?) �I've just explained to our guests how many BTUs were available for cooking their meal on our wonderful new stove, and now I'm going to amaze them by describing how many bits of resolution are behind each lovely note they are hearing on our piano. �Once they realize that, the music will take on a whole new dimension for them. They will be impressed with us.
Bill Brandom wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Hello folks, I have reviewed my statement below with our engineers and they have clarified that the standard Mark IV does not playback XP data like the PROs do. Sorry about that. In terms of playing regular MIDI data, the Mark IV plays very close to the same performance level of the Mark III PRO. Bill Brandom Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division YAMAHA Corporation of America TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 E-mail: bbrandom@... Web: http://www.yamaha.comsjhart110@... 05/15/05 4:36 PM >>>Does the Mark IV play back XP Standard files like the pro? How does the Mark IV (non Pro), store the data to make it "virtually the same as a Mark III pro"? --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brandom" wrote:The standard Mark IV performs at virtually the same level as theMarkIII PRO. The Mark IV PRO outperforms any reproducing piano evermade.Bill Brandom Senior Technical Manager, Piano Division YAMAHA Corporation of America TEL (800) 854-1569 FAX (714) 522-9424 E-mail: bbrandom@y... Web: http://www.yamaha.comcarl@y... 05/08/05 11:22 AM >>>I was wondering if any of you who know about the Mark IVdisklavierscould answer a question for me. As I understand it, the Mark IV allowsformuch more accurate recording and reproduction than the Mark III. WhatI'mwondering is if this level of quality approaches the disklavierpro--ifnot the new pro models, then the older ones. Anyone know? Thanks, Carl YoungbloodTo Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: disklavier-owner@... To reach our group's web site go to: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is: http://MuncyFamily.com THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: disklavier-unsubscribe@... Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/rKxVKC/SOnJAA/n1hLAA/MlLolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: disklavier-owner@... To reach our group's web site go to: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is: http://MuncyFamily.com THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: disklavier-unsubscribe@... Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by Robert Welcyng
Carl:
As far as I know, Yamaha does not offer PianoSoft recordings in XP format. That doesn't mean that no one ever will. And, of course, you could always make your own XP files on a Pro. Realize that XP files carry much data, so floppies are not a practical medium.
DKV models other than Pro simply ignore the additional XP data. �There is no problem in playing an XP file on even a Mark II. �I've done it, and, although not necessary, I've stripped out the extra data.
To get the answer to your question about what you'd be missing, the only practical way to find out is to do some playing and listening on various models. �Perhaps I don't what I'm missing--I've never even heard a Pro--but I've heard some very fine music on my Mark II. �My only complaint has been pedal thumping on older PianoSoft recordings with on/off pedaling, but I know how to minimize that.
Naturally, you can expect a psychological effect: A great deal of pleasure derives from owning the best--whether you can actually hear the difference or in just knowing or believing that it is there. � Yamaha's marketing, through their ambivalence about the relative performance of Mark III Pro, Mark IV, and Mark IV Pro has not make your decision any easier. �I believe they must want you to go to a dealer, listen, and find out for yourself.
Carl Youngblood wrote:
As far as I know, Yamaha does not offer PianoSoft recordings in XP format. That doesn't mean that no one ever will. And, of course, you could always make your own XP files on a Pro. Realize that XP files carry much data, so floppies are not a practical medium.
DKV models other than Pro simply ignore the additional XP data. �There is no problem in playing an XP file on even a Mark II. �I've done it, and, although not necessary, I've stripped out the extra data.
To get the answer to your question about what you'd be missing, the only practical way to find out is to do some playing and listening on various models. �Perhaps I don't what I'm missing--I've never even heard a Pro--but I've heard some very fine music on my Mark II. �My only complaint has been pedal thumping on older PianoSoft recordings with on/off pedaling, but I know how to minimize that.
Naturally, you can expect a psychological effect: A great deal of pleasure derives from owning the best--whether you can actually hear the difference or in just knowing or believing that it is there. � Yamaha's marketing, through their ambivalence about the relative performance of Mark III Pro, Mark IV, and Mark IV Pro has not make your decision any easier. �I believe they must want you to go to a dealer, listen, and find out for yourself.
Carl Youngblood wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Are there very many PianoSoft recordings available out there that are in Midi XP format?� I'm trying to determine how much I'll be missing out on by getting a regular disklavier as opposed to the disklavier PRO.
If I put a Midi XP recording into a regular disklavier can it downconvert it to a format that the regular disklavier can read, or will it not be able to play it at all?
Thanks,
Carl
On 5/15/05, Bill Brandom <BBrandom@...> wrote:Hello folks,
I have reviewed my statement below with our engineers and they have
clarified that the standard Mark IV does not playback XP data like the
PROs do. Sorry about that. In terms of playing regular MIDI data, the
Mark IV plays very close to the same performance level of the Mark III
PRO.
To Post a message to the group, send it to:�� disklavier@...
To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...
To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.� It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com
THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.� That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.� If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@...
Know someone who wants to join?� Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
-- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by Dave Budde
XP files are generally 2-4 times the size of a standard midi file. So floppy is still a very viable medium for these files. There are two significant contributors to the size: the data associated with each note takes 16 bits to represent rather than 8 bits. Also, pedal data is continuous rather than just on/off. This can be a huge contributor to the size if a lot of pedaling is used.
You can get examples of XP files here:
Follow the link to one of the contestants and you'll find both XP and standard midi file formats for the performances.
On May 15, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Robert Welcyng wrote:
Carl:
As far as I know, Yamaha does not offer PianoSoft recordings in XP format. That doesn't mean that no one ever will. And, of course, you could always make your own XP files on a Pro. Realize that XP files carry much data, so floppies are not a practical medium.
DKV models other than Pro simply ignore the additional XP data. There is no problem in playing an XP file on even a Mark II. I've done it, and, although not necessary, I've stripped out the extra data.
To get the answer to your question about what you'd be missing, the only practical way to find out is to do some playing and listening on various models. Perhaps I don't what I'm missing--I've never even heard a Pro--but I've heard some very fine music on my Mark II. My only complaint has been pedal thumping on older PianoSoft recordings with on/off pedaling, but I know how to minimize that.
Naturally, you can expect a psychological effect: A great deal of pleasure derives from owning the best--whether you can actually hear the difference or in just knowing or believing that it is there. Yamaha's marketing, through their ambivalence about the relative performance of Mark III Pro, Mark IV, and Mark IV Pro has not make your decision any easier. I believe they must want you to go to a dealer, listen, and find out for yourself.
Carl Youngblood wrote:
Are there very many PianoSoft recordings available out there that are in Midi XP format? I'm trying to determine how much I'll be missing out on by getting a regular disklavier as opposed to the disklavier PRO.
If I put a Midi XP recording into a regular disklavier can it downconvert it to a format that the regular disklavier can read, or will it not be able to play it at all?
Thanks,
Carl
On 5/15/05, Bill Brandom <BBrandom@...> wrote:Hello folks,
I have reviewed my statement below with our engineers and they have
clarified that the standard Mark IV does not playback XP data like the
PROs do. Sorry about that. In terms of playing regular MIDI data, the
Mark IV plays very close to the same performance level of the Mark III
PRO.
To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...
To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...
To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com
THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@...
Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
-- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@YahooGroups.com
To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...
To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com
THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@...
Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
Yahoo! Groups Links
- To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/
- To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by George F. Litterst
Good morning, everyone. On May 15, 2005, at 7:36 PM, sjhart110110 wrote: > Does the Mark IV play back XP Standard files like the pro? How does > the Mark IV (non Pro), store the data to make it "virtually the same > as a Mark III pro"? There have been some good replies to various aspects of this question and, I think, a couple of misleading statements thrown in as well. When considering the Pro vs. non-Pro issue, one must separate the innate capabilities of the record/playback system from the instrument's ability to collect and respond to XP data. XP data refers to extra bits of MIDI data that enable the instrument to: --record hammer velocities on a scale of 0-1023 instead of the usual MIDI scale of 0-127 --record key velocity for each note on scale of 0-1023 in addition to hammer velocity --record key release velocity for each note on a scale of 0-1023. In early model Disklaviers, the dynamic range on playback was somewhat limited. The loudest notes that a pianist could record were played back a bit softer, and the softest notes that a pianist could record were played back a bit louder. The first Disklavier Pro (Mark IIXG vintage) had a much wider dynamic range with little or no restriction. In fact, it could accurately reproduce notes that were played so softly that the hammers never hit the strings. Part of the Pro's ability to do this had to do with a superior record/playback system and part of it had to do with its ability to collect and respond to extra bits of performance data (i.e. XP data). I believe it is true to say that many aspects of the record and playback system in the Mark IV non-Pro are the same as or very similar to the Mark III Pro. That does not mean that the instrument can record or respond to extra bits of performance data, but it does mean that the instrument has a huge dynamic range and that the customer can artificially turn down the playback volume to whisper- quiet levels. Recording in XP mode is an option in the Pro. Using XP mode means recording a lot of additional data. In a normal MIDI recording, there is a value recorded (or assigned) for each note-on message and each note-off message. Those numbers are recorded on a scale of 0-127. In order for XP mode to record note-on and note-off with a resolution of 0-1023 (as well as the additional key velocity information), the instrument employs normally unused MIDI controllers to store the MIDI data. In addition to this extra data, the Pro also records key velocity on a scale of 0-1023 for each note-on event. Again, this data is stored in values assigned to normally unused MIDI controllers. In order for the Disklavier to know which controller value applies to which notes, the instrument uses Key Aftertouch messages. NOTE: These messages are not recorded by virtue of how much key pressure is applied (as is the case in high-end MIDI controller keyboards). The Key Aftertouch data is used in a unique way for the purpose of associating the various controller messages to specific notes. The manner in which XP data is captured and used is a bit complicated, and the collection of XP data adds greatly to the file size of the recording. At this point in time, I know of no Yamaha- published recordings that contain XP data. The best examples of XP recordings can be found on the web site of the International Piano-e- Competition (www.piano-e-competition.com). As far as non-Pro Disklaviers are concerned, XP data is benign. Non- Pro Disklaviers will ignore XP data. The Pro has a feature for stripping XP data from a file; non-Pros do not have this feature. BTW, pedal data for all Pros and many non-Pros is continuous data. When deciding whether to purchase a Mark IV Pro or non-Pro, keep in mind these two things: --The DC2 and smaller grand Disklaviers do not have hammer sensors. Therefore, their recording system is not as advanced as the larger grands. In grand pianos, hammer sensors are currently only available in the DC3 and larger instruments. The Pro, therefore, is only available in the DC3 and larger pianos. --The Mark IV non-Pro includes speakers underneath the piano. The Pro does not. If you are planning to run the audio of your Disklavier into another sound system and therefore do not need the speakers included with the non-Pro, you might find it advantageous to purchase the Pro instead if the incremental difference is within your budget. Regards, PianoBench
Re: [disklavier] Re: Mark IV disklaviers
2005-05-16 by Dave Budde
The Yamaha XP Format sample disk that comes with the Disklavier Pro is at least one set of recordings that is published by Yamaha that contain XP data. I don't know that you can buy this separately.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 16, 2005, at 6:44 AM, George F. Litterst wrote: > At this point in time, I know of no Yamaha- > published recordings that contain XP data.