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Audio recording with key's noise

Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-11 by franpeyr

Hi

I'm new in this forum, so I tell you who am I. I'm François, a french composer (so please 
excuse my poor english), 42 years old, and I bought a disklavier -Mark lll DU1A- in order to 
have a better sound for my work (mostly for theater) than a digital sound of piano.

But I'm a very dissapointed, not by the sound of the piano itself, but by the "woody" noise of 
the keys when they return to original positions (i.e. when note is off). I am working now on 
very light piano part (the same universe as, for exemple, Arvo Part's "Für Alina"). I play very 
softly, but when the disklavier replays, the velocity and the softness is respected, but the 
notes-off are brutal, and it makes this woody sound that is amplified by the piano itself.

Has someone had the same problem, and can it be resolved ? I'm sorry if this subject was on 
the database, but I searched for it and don't find.

Thanks for help

Re: [disklavier] Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-11 by Ron Natalie

franpeyr wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I'm new in this forum, so I tell you who am I. I'm Fran\ufffdois, a french composer (so please 
> excuse my poor english), 42 years old, and I bought a disklavier -Mark lll DU1A- in order to 
> have a better sound for my work (mostly for theater) than a digital sound of piano.

I'm not tremendously familiar with the upright pianos, but where are you 
  placing the microphones?   Where is the piano in relationship to walls 
in the room.  It sounds like you can mike it differently to diminish the
key return noise.

Second, I assume you are playing some sequenced MIDI into the disklavier
rather than playing back something the disklavier it has itself 
recorded.  What are your note off velocities?  On most midi devicese
note off velocities are unimportant, on the Disklavier it affects
the speed in which the key releases.  I bet it's set to 127 in whatever
sequencer software you're using.

Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-12 by franpeyr

Hi,
thanks for the response

> I'm not tremendously familiar with the upright pianos, but where are you 
>   placing the microphones?   Where is the piano in relationship to walls 
> in the room.  It sounds like you can mike it differently to diminish the
> key return noise.

Yes and no. :°)
I have to take it close, because the sound of the room itself is not vey good, so I want to 
add 'space' later, whith a reverb unit.

> Second, I assume you are playing some sequenced MIDI into the disklavier
> rather than playing back something the disklavier it has itself 
> recorded.

Yes and no. :°))
In both of the ways to record, with a sequencer and with the unit of the piano, there is a 
real difference between the way I turn off the note and the way it is reproduiced.

> What are your note off velocities?  On most midi devicese
> note off velocities are unimportant, on the Disklavier it affects
> the speed in which the key releases.  I bet it's set to 127 in whatever
> sequencer software you're using.

No, the default is 64 (middle).

I have tried to record, and I have tested, with editing of the value of the note-off velocities, 
and it don't change a thing.

Is it possible to think that there is a difference between the upright and the grand ?

RE: [disklavier] Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-12 by John Hancock

I found that placing the microphones at the back of the piano facing the sound board worked very well on my MX 100 MkII. The sound isn\u2019t as bright but there is no key return noise.

The later DK\u2019s apparently have a return spring in the solenoids that prevents the noise.

I have a Mk 1 grand DK now which is quite noisy on key returns as well. I am going to investigate the possibility of modifying the midi file. I\u2019m thinking that if I give the note off\u2019s a low value rather than a key off, might stop the keys from crashing back.

John Hancock

From: disklavier@yahoogroups.com [mailto:disklavier@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of franpeyr
Sent: 11 May 2006 17:55
To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [disklavier] Audio recording with key's noise

Hi

I'm new in this forum, so I tell you who am I. I'm François, a french composer (so please
excuse my poor english), 42 years old, and I bought a disklavier -Mark lll DU1A- in order to
have a better sound for my work (mostly for theater) than a digital sound of piano.

But I'm a very dissapointed, not by the sound of the piano itself, but by the "woody" noise of
the keys when they return to original positions (i.e. when note is off). I am working now on
very light piano part (the same universe as, for exemple, Arvo Part's "Für Alina"). I play very
softly, but when the disklavier replays, the velocity and the softness is respected, but the
notes-off are brutal, and it makes this woody sound that is amplified by the piano itself.

Has someone had the same problem, and can it be resolved ? I'm sorry if this subject was on
the database, but I searched for it and don't find.

Thanks for help





Re: [disklavier] Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-12 by Carol Beigel

I have made audio recordings of my MX100IIXG (same
piano as a DU1 almost) and I have teched concert grand
pianos in a recording studio for professional
recordings.  When I play them both back on my surround
sound stereo system, I find it hard to tell the
difference.  Perhaps a nontribute to my ears!

The professional recordings, with reverb and all that,
still pick up pedal and some action noise.  My own
recordings pick up the thermostatic clicking when the
air conditioning comes on.  I am quite a novice at
this, but I will describe a few things I do that really
make a difference.

I am using $100 each condenser mics - 2 of them, about
3 feet away from the piano.  I leave both front boards
on the piano and only fold back the top.  This keeps
action noise to a minimum.  Also, make sure the action
screws are tight in your piano action to cut down on
noise.  For grand pianos, make sure the action screws
are tight, and that the hammers are checking properly
so they don't slam down on the hammer rail.  For
reverb, I just turn on the ceiling fan!

Most important, I edit the MIDI file for the recording.
I edit for loudness (velocity) and tempo.  If the piano
hammers are not slamming into the strings, they are not
as noisy!  You can always turn up the mic sensitivity
on the digital audio converter while recording.  I also
make sure the piano is perfectly tuned and voiced,
especially voiced, before each recording.

I realize the sound is in the ear of the beholder and
that scads of money and effort can be poured into
making audio recordings.  I have invested $600 and my
client has invested many thousands of dollars on
professional recordings.  Many people who do home
recordings have to go thru tremendous trial and test
runs before they get it "right".  I can often tell the
difference.

Just make sure the piano is in the best physical
condition it can be in!  It is unbelievabe what
tightening the action and cabinet screws will do, and
"sugar coating" the hammer grooves will do for the
tone.

Carol Beigel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "franpeyr" <fpeyrony@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Audio recording with key's noise


Hi

I'm new in this forum, so I tell you who am I. I'm
Fran\ufffdois, a french composer (so please
excuse my poor english), 42 years old, and I bought a
disklavier -Mark lll DU1A- in order to
have a better sound for my work (mostly for theater)
than a digital sound of piano.

But I'm a very dissapointed, not by the sound of the
piano itself, but by the "woody" noise of
the keys when they return to original positions (i.e.
when note is off). I am working now on
very light piano part (the same universe as, for
exemple, Arvo Part's "F\ufffdr Alina"). I play very
softly, but when the disklavier replays, the velocity
and the softness is respected, but the
notes-off are brutal, and it makes this woody sound
that is amplified by the piano itself.

Has someone had the same problem, and can it be
resolved ? I'm sorry if this subject was on
the database, but I searched for it and don't find.

Thanks for help






------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

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Todd's family web site was completely updated
012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and
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http://MuncyFamily.com

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Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-12 by franpeyr

Thanks for all your responses, very clear and argued, even it's a little bit difficult to me to 
understand every term...

I am sure that my problem is not normal, and is not in the way of record the sound in itself 
(well, it is, in fact, but not at this point...)

When I stand in front of the piano, and just make a small record of a few notes, very softly, 
while carefully slowing down the up movement of my fingers, in order to test the capacity of 
recording the off motion of the keys, and, when it's recorded, when the DK plays and every 
note-off sounds like 'dum', 'dom', 'dum', and when I *see* the keys going up fast and full of 
"authority", I'm very confused ; can it be possible that :
1 - my first and very new DK has a serious problem, or,
2 - my sequencer (Digital Performer) is unable to pilot the DK
3 - Yamaha, with the very last model of upright piano, made a reduced software, in order to 
tell to the customers : "Hey, you want quality, buy the Mark IV model !!"

...

François Peyrony,
fpeyrony@...
www.peyrony.com

Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by franpeyr

Hi everybody

In french, we have a sentence, "soulever un lievre", in english, to raise a hare.
It means that, when you are looking for a solution to a problem, you find something which 
is intrigant, strange, and can be the possible reason of the problem (without fixing it at 
this point)
Well, I think that I have raised a hare... :°)

The Operation Manual of the DK says somewhere that it is possible to filter the keyboard 
touch data, so that only basic midi messages are output.
You have to use the unit control, and press [FUNC]>[MIDI SETUP OPTIONS]>[KEY TOUCH], 
and set it to on or off.
But it's impossible for me to have this display on my control unit...

Is there anyone here who have a DU1A model ? If yes, can this person check that this 
parameter is implemanted ? Can this person check that the reference of the control unit is 
DKC55RCD ?

I tried to call someone at Yamaha France to answer to my questions, and I hope that she 
will call back on Monday. But we are Saturday morning, 2 days of impossible work for 
me...

Thanks for support !

François Peyrony,
fpeyrony@...
www.peyrony.com

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by Richard H. Kerr

I have a DU1A and when I follow the routine described in the operating manual, I do NOT see the Key Touch parameter either; only the pedal control. My control unit is numbered the same as yours.
From: franpeyr
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 1:36 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

Hi everybody

In french, we have a sentence, "soulever un lievre", in english, to raise a hare.
It means that, when you are looking for a solution to a problem, you find something which
is intrigant, strange, and can be the possible reason of the problem (without fixing it at
this point)
Well, I think that I have raised a hare... :°)

The Operation Manual of the DK says somewhere that it is possible to filter the keyboard
touch data, so that only basic midi messages are output.
You have to use the unit control, and press [FUNC]>[MIDI SETUP OPTIONS]>[KEY TOUCH],
and set it to on or off.
But it's impossible for me to have this display on my control unit...

Is there anyone here who have a DU1A model ? If yes, can this person check that this
parameter is implemanted ? Can this person check that the reference of the control unit is
DKC55RCD ?

I tried to call someone at Yamaha France to answer to my questions, and I hope that she
will call back on Monday. But we are Saturday morning, 2 days of impossible work for
me...

Thanks for support !

François Peyrony,
fpeyrony@...
www.peyrony.com






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Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
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Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by franpeyr

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard H. Kerr" <KerrRichardH@...> wrote:

> I have a DU1A and when I follow the routine described in the operating manual, I do NOT 
see the Key Touch parameter either; only the pedal control. My control unit is numbered the 
same as yours.

OK, so,
is my problem meaning something to you ?
Have you noticed a big difference between the way you slack your keys (I hope that 'slacking' 
is the right word), and the way it is reproduced by the DU1A ? In both ways of recording, with 
the control unit and with a computer ?

I am sorry for these boring questions of technique, and it would be a pleasure for me to 
speak with you about music and fresh air... But the disappointment after the purchase of the 
DK is quite big...

Thanks for your patience...

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by Carol Beigel

Have you tried calibrating your Disklavier?  Sounds to
me like maybe your key sensors and pedal sensors need a
fine calibration.  Has a Disklavier technician serviced
your piano?  BTW, I never heard of a Key Touch
parameter to record a limited amount of MIDI data on a
MarkIII Disklavier.  Not that I ever looked for it, but
perhaps someone more versed in these things knows about
this.  Perhaps someone like Pianobench?

Carol

----- Original Message -----
From: "franpeyr" <fpeyrony@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's
noise


> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard H. Kerr"
<KerrRichardH@...> wrote:
>
> > I have a DU1A and when I follow the routine
described in the operating manual, I do NOT
> see the Key Touch parameter either; only the pedal
control. My control unit is numbered the
> same as yours.
>
> OK, so,
> is my problem meaning something to you ?
> Have you noticed a big difference between the way you
slack your keys (I hope that 'slacking'
> is the right word), and the way it is reproduced by
the DU1A ? In both ways of recording, with
> the control unit and with a computer ?
>
> I am sorry for these boring questions of technique,
and it would be a pleasure for me to
> speak with you about music and fresh air... But the
disappointment after the purchase of the
> DK is quite big...
>
> Thanks for your patience...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's
founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> Todd's family web site was completely updated
012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and
links to midi sites among many other things, The url
is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are
getting too much mail, go the the web site and change
your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the
problem, while maintaining your access to the group.
If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank
email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a
blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this
link:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by franpeyr

Hi !

--- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Carol Beigel" <thecarolb@...> wrote:
>
> Have you tried calibrating your Disklavier?  Sounds to
> me like maybe your key sensors and pedal sensors need a
> fine calibration.  Has a Disklavier technician serviced
> your piano? 

Maybe. This was not done in front of me, but perhaps was it done in the salesman's 
workshop.
I will know about it on monday, I hope...

But, ->

> BTW, I never heard of a Key Touch
> parameter to record a limited amount of MIDI data on a
> MarkIII Disklavier.

The fact is that the DK Operation Manual (heading "disklavier mark lll series Full-Function 
Models") mentions 2 things : the way to turn on/off this parameter, and, in the midicharts, 
the fact that DK can generate and receive note-off-velocities.

According to Ron Natalie, this parameter is related to my problem.

One hour ago, I have edited a midifile generated by the DK. I played few notes, being very 
carefull to slack them slowly, wrote the song with the floppy unit, then transferred it on 
my computer. Every note's velocity-note-off is set to 64. EVERY ! Tadaaaaaa !!!

It seems that the DK DU1A don't use this parameter at all.

So, is DU1A a Non-Full-Function model ?
If it is, well, the advertising is lying ! It's NOT a Mark lll model !

> Not that I ever looked for it, but
> perhaps someone more versed in these things knows about
> this.  Perhaps someone like Pianobench ?

Perhaps you have never looked for it because the DKs you use can deal with that 
parameter...
Don't you think that it is strange, this dissapearance ? Strange, or worrying...

Why those things happen to me, and why NOW ? Pffffffff.... :°(

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by Richard Kerr

I am sorry I cannot be of any help. I do not play piano, and use the DU1A only to listen to classical MIDI files. I have not tried to record with the piano, either with the keyboard or a computer. I assume when you used the term "slacking" you mean that you are reducing the velocity at which the keys are pressed.
;
For whatever it might be worth, I do know this about playing MIDI files that have been scanned from piano rolls. Those with key velocities less than about 35 will hardly play. Hammers barely strike the strings, if at all. To get such pieces to play properly and sound correct, the velocity at the low end must be around 45-50. At the other end of the velocity scale, anything higher than 90-95 just beats the strings to pieces and the sound is terrible. Most pieces play well with setings in the 45-80 range. This is not a hard and fast rule, but applies generally. I don't profess to understand why this is the case, but Carol can probably explain it. I wish I could be of help. All I know is that my control unit behaves as yours does when it comes to not displaying the touch parameter that is described in the DK manual.
Richard
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:06 AM
Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

Have you tried calibrating your Disklavier? Sounds to
me like maybe your key sensors and pedal sensors need a
fine calibration. Has a Disklavier technician serviced
your piano? BTW, I never heard of a Key Touch
parameter to record a limited amount of MIDI data on a
MarkIII Disklavier. Not that I ever looked for it, but
perhaps someone more versed in these things knows about
this. Perhaps someone like Pianobench?

Carol

----- Original Message -----
From: "franpeyr" <fpeyrony@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's
noise


> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard H. Kerr"
wrote:
>
> > I have a DU1A and when I follow the routine
described in the operating manual, I do NOT
> see the Key Touch parameter either; only the pedal
control. My control unit is numbered the
> same as yours.
>
> OK, so,
> is my problem meaning something to you ?
> Have you noticed a big difference between the way you
slack your keys (I hope that 'slacking'
> is the right word), and the way it is reproduced by
the DU1A ? In both ways of recording, with
> the control unit and with a computer ?
>
> I am sorry for these boring questions of technique,
and it would be a pleasure for me to
> speak with you about music and fresh air... But the
disappointment after the purchase of the
> DK is quite big...
>
> Thanks for your patience...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:
disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's
founder and moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> Todd's family web site was completely updated
012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and
links to midi sites among many other things, The url
is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are
getting too much mail, go the the web site and change
your email delivery option instead. That will fix the
problem, while maintaining your access to the group.
If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank
email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@...
>
> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a
blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this
link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@...

To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...

To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03. It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
http://MuncyFamily.com

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@...

Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/disklavier/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-13 by George F. Litterst

Good afternoon, everyone.

If you record your piano playing on a DU1A, it should play back with  
a high degree of accuracy from its floppy drive or from internal  
memory. If you play with very wide ranging dynamics, you may find  
that the quietest notes play back a bit louder and that the loudest  
notes play back a bit software.

If you play the MIDI performance back from a computer, but sure that  
the Disklavier's MIDI In setting is set to the 500 ms delay. If it is  
not, the Disklavier will not play back accurately. If the delay is  
on, the playback should sound about the same as it did during the  
original performance.

Certain models of Disklavier record Key Aftertouch data. If the  
Disklavier is not a Pro, that data is used to control the decay of  
the digital piano sound in silent mode. It has no effect on normal  
acoustic playback. On a Pro, Key Aftertouch messages are also used as  
part of a sophisticated scheme for recording with a higher resolution  
than normal MIDI data permits.

Many people edit MIDI data on a computer before playing it back on a  
Disklavier in order to get the Disklavier to sound appropriate. If  
the recording was made on a Disklavier, this sort of editing is not  
necessary.

Regards,
PianoBench
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 13, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Carol Beigel wrote:

> Have you tried calibrating your Disklavier?  Sounds to
> me like maybe your key sensors and pedal sensors need a
> fine calibration.  Has a Disklavier technician serviced
> your piano?  BTW, I never heard of a Key Touch
> parameter to record a limited amount of MIDI data on a
> MarkIII Disklavier.  Not that I ever looked for it, but
> perhaps someone more versed in these things knows about
> this.  Perhaps someone like Pianobench?
>
> Carol
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "franpeyr" <fpeyrony@...>
> To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:14 AM
> Subject: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's
> noise
>
>
>> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "Richard H. Kerr"
> <KerrRichardH@...> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a DU1A and when I follow the routine
> described in the operating manual, I do NOT
>> see the Key Touch parameter either; only the pedal
> control. My control unit is numbered the
>> same as yours.
>>
>> OK, so,
>> is my problem meaning something to you ?
>> Have you noticed a big difference between the way you
> slack your keys (I hope that 'slacking'
>> is the right word), and the way it is reproduced by
> the DU1A ? In both ways of recording, with
>> the control unit and with a computer ?
>>
>> I am sorry for these boring questions of technique,
> and it would be a pleasure for me to
>> speak with you about music and fresh air... But the
> disappointment after the purchase of the
>> DK is quite big...
>>
>> Thanks for your patience...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-14 by franpeyr

Hi everybody
and, again, thanks for help.

--- In disklavier@...m, "George F. Litterst" <PianoBench@...> wrote:

> If you record your piano playing on a DU1A, it should play back with  
> a high degree of accuracy from its floppy drive or from internal  
> memory.

That whas I hopped...

> If you play with very wide ranging dynamics, you may find  
> that the quietest notes play back a bit louder and that the loudest  
> notes play back a bit software.

Yes, I have noticed that. But the problem isn't here, in the way of the notes sound, but in 
the way of the notes *stop* to sound. The "off" of the notes.
 
> If you play the MIDI performance back from a computer, but sure that  
> the Disklavier's MIDI In setting is set to the 500 ms delay. [...]

It is set like this.

> Certain models of Disklavier record Key Aftertouch data. If the  
> Disklavier is not a Pro, that data is used to control the decay of  
> the digital piano sound in silent mode. It has no effect on normal  
> acoustic playback. On a Pro, Key Aftertouch messages are also used as  
> part of a sophisticated scheme for recording with a higher resolution  
> than normal MIDI data permits.

Here, we are not talking about *Aftertouch* Data (key pressure after the note is sounded)
but about *Velocity-Note-Off* Data (used to convey when a note on a musical keyboard is 
released).

And, BTW, I don't like this term, "pro". :°)
Because, in fact, I'm a pro who can't offer pros instruments... :°)))))) Especially DK ones...

> Many people edit MIDI data on a computer before playing it back on a  
> Disklavier in order to get the Disklavier to sound appropriate. If  
> the recording was made on a Disklavier, this sort of editing is not  
> necessary.

I was hopping that too...

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-14 by George F. Litterst

Good morning, everyone.

It sounds to me as though franpeyr's problem is not the MIDI data but  
the noise in the playback system of his DU1A. This cannot be fixed by  
changing the MIDI data.

I recommend a visit from a qualified Disklavier technician.

Regards,
PianoBench
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 14, 2006, at 2:11 AM, franpeyr wrote:

> Hi everybody
> and, again, thanks for help.
>
> --- In disklavier@yahoogroups.com, "George F. Litterst"  
> <PianoBench@...> wrote:
>
>> If you record your piano playing on a DU1A, it should play back with
>> a high degree of accuracy from its floppy drive or from internal
>> memory.
>
> That whas I hopped...
>
>> If you play with very wide ranging dynamics, you may find
>> that the quietest notes play back a bit louder and that the loudest
>> notes play back a bit software.
>
> Yes, I have noticed that. But the problem isn't here, in the way of  
> the notes sound, but in
> the way of the notes *stop* to sound. The "off" of the notes.
>
>> If you play the MIDI performance back from a computer, but sure that
>> the Disklavier's MIDI In setting is set to the 500 ms delay. [...]
>
> It is set like this.
>
>> Certain models of Disklavier record Key Aftertouch data. If the
>> Disklavier is not a Pro, that data is used to control the decay of
>> the digital piano sound in silent mode. It has no effect on normal
>> acoustic playback. On a Pro, Key Aftertouch messages are also used as
>> part of a sophisticated scheme for recording with a higher resolution
>> than normal MIDI data permits.
>
> Here, we are not talking about *Aftertouch* Data (key pressure  
> after the note is sounded)
> but about *Velocity-Note-Off* Data (used to convey when a note on a  
> musical keyboard is
> released).
>
> And, BTW, I don't like this term, "pro". :°)
> Because, in fact, I'm a pro who can't offer pros instruments... : 
> °)))))) Especially DK ones...
>
>> Many people edit MIDI data on a computer before playing it back on a
>> Disklavier in order to get the Disklavier to sound appropriate. If
>> the recording was made on a Disklavier, this sort of editing is not
>> necessary.
>
> I was hopping that too...
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ~->
>
> To Post a message to the group, send it to:    
> disklavier@...
>
> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and  
> moderator, send it to:
> disklavier-owner@...
>
> To reach our group's web site go to:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
> Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It  
> contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among  
> many other things, The url is:
> http://MuncyFamily.com
>
> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too  
> much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery  
> option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your  
> access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a  
> blank email to:
> disklavier-unsubscribe@yahooGroups.com
>
> Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-19 by franpeyr

Good evening everybody

I want to tell you every information about my "problem".

Sooooo, it will be a little bit hard to say it in english...

First, there are differences, hudge, between the Mark III (full function or not) and the Pro 
series, and one of these differences is the fact that only the Pro series pianos are 
controlling the return of the keys. The midi parameter "velocity note off" is used for it, and 
with Mark lll Series, it makes nothing.

Second, there are differences between uprights and grands pianos, and one of those is the 
mechanic of the hammer itself. It's hard to explain, but the DK mecanism, while working 
on an upright, is not using the long part of the key, but the short one, which is lested. It 
means that, when DK stops playing a key, the key returns to her initial position faster and 
stronger than with a finger.

It's a Yamaha's french specialist of the DK who told me that. So, there is *nothing* to do 
with my problem (the only solution is to by a pro-grand piano, wich is veeeery expensive, 
and unfortunally I don't have the house to contain it...).

Those woody sounds are disturbing, but only if you play few notes, and you want to record 
a little close to the harmony table, ok.
But "adios" to Debussy-like, Arvo Pärt-like,.... Peyrony-like (that's my name :°)  )

WHat do you think of that ?

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-19 by Robert Welcyng

Fran\ufffdois,

I have some remarks to offer, but not any suggestions that are likely to please you.

I have also had experience making audio recordings, but with a Mark II C3 (grand). I've found that while loud pieces will hide some of the mechanical noises of the sustain pedal and of the keyboard escapement, when pieces of lower note velocities are played, the noise can become quite prominent.

I believe that your dealer is basically correct when he says that little can be done (assuming that your instrument is in good regulation and has been calibrated). Certainly a Mark IV Pro would reduce some objectionable noise when your music is played, but, being a mechanical device, would probably still be short of perfection for the kind of music you wish to record.  

One technique that professional recorders use for keeping the noise down is to incorporate more ambient (diffused room sound) and less direct sound into the recording. As you know, that requires placing the microphones at some distance and makes a higher demand for good room acoustics and sound proofing to block outside noises.

Even if you had the money to spend for a more expensive piano, to take advantage of it, you would also need to spend a great deal on a proper recording environment. As one reaches toward perfection, the cost of doing so rises enormously.

The kind music you are composing is very demanding of a fine and quiet instrument and recording environment. The ECM recording by Alexander Malter of Arvo P\ufffdrt's "F\ufffdr Alina" must indeed have been a challenging one to make with its crystalline tones that decay to the threshold of hearing. It's an absolutely beautiful recording and had to have had extreme care in its making and in the preparation of the piano. (Yet, some mechanical noises can be faintly heard.) This is not a recording one could begin to approach through recording a DU1A at home with close microphones.

If I were faced with your problem, I would consider a solution which you have apparently tried and rejected.  I would go back to digital samples--the GigaPiano (or equivalent) approach. Admittedly that would not be an exciting turn after having invested in your Mark lll DU1A with hopes of using it for your music.  However, the DU1A remains an excellent instrument for making your initial midi recordings.  Working with a GigaPiano setup has the advantages of eliminating the offensive noise and of offering ease of audio recording. And, as you surely know from experience, it introduces some new problems.  In my opinion, given the overall circumstances, a compromise is called for and this would be the most promising approach that is affordable.

I wish you the best in your musical efforts and hope someday to hear your compositions.







franpeyr wrote:

>Good evening everybody
>
>I want to tell you every information about my "problem".
>
>Sooooo, it will be a little bit hard to say it in english...
>
>First, there are differences, hudge, between the Mark III (full function or not) and the Pro 
>series, and one of these differences is the fact that only the Pro series pianos are 
>controlling the return of the keys. The midi parameter "velocity note off" is used for it, and 
>with Mark lll Series, it makes nothing.
>
>Second, there are differences between uprights and grands pianos, and one of those is the 
>mechanic of the hammer itself. It's hard to explain, but the DK mecanism, while working 
>on an upright, is not using the long part of the key, but the short one, which is lested. It 
>means that, when DK stops playing a key, the key returns to her initial position faster and 
>stronger than with a finger.
>
>It's a Yamaha's french specialist of the DK who told me that. So, there is *nothing* to do 
>with my problem (the only solution is to by a pro-grand piano, wich is veeeery expensive, 
>and unfortunally I don't have the house to contain it...).
>
>Those woody sounds are disturbing, but only if you play few notes, and you want to record 
>a little close to the harmony table, ok.
>But "adios" to Debussy-like, Arvo P\ufffdrt-like,.... Peyrony-like (that's my name :\ufffd)  )
>
>WHat do you think of that ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To Post a message to the group, send it to:   disklavier@...
>
>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to:
>disklavier-owner@...
>
>To reach our group's web site go to:
>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier
>
>Todd's family web site was completely updated 012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among many other things, The url is:
>http://MuncyFamily.com 
>
>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group.  If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to:
>disklavier-unsubscribe@... 
>
>Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank email to:
>disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link:
>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join 
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Robert Welcyng
Anchorage, Alaska

Re: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's noise

2006-05-20 by Carol Beigel

Don't give up!  I am a professional piano technician
who gets paid to prepare Yamaha pianos for noiseless,
professional recordings.  I have learned a few things
in the past two years that I never would have imagined
making such a huge difference.

First, the placement of the microphones is crucial and
you really need to experiment with different placements
for your room.  The best position I have seen is two
microphones, one atop the other with the top one upside
down, in an x y position, about 6 feet from the piano.
You get stereo sound with very little action noise.

Second, I should tell you that I spend about 4 to 5
hours preparing the piano for each recording session.
Not just tuning and voicing, but preparing the piano
action as well.  The action screws need to be tight.
Also, the catcher distance must be just right so the
key doesn't thump too loudly on the way down.  I also
find it extremely important to fluff up the whippen
cushions a tad if the keys are noisy when returning. I
often spend an hour just adjusting the pedals!

There is no reason on earth why a DU1 should not make
beautiful, noiseless recordings.  My best successes are
with clients who will pay for my time to get their
pianos in super condition.  They just don't come that
way for nothing!  Even if you had a Pro model, you
would still need to get the piano in shape!

Carol Beigel
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "franpeyr" <fpeyrony@...>
To: <disklavier@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 1:19 PM
Subject: [disklavier] Re: Audio recording with key's
noise


Good evening everybody

I want to tell you every information about my
"problem".

Sooooo, it will be a little bit hard to say it in
english...

First, there are differences, hudge, between the Mark
III (full function or not) and the Pro
series, and one of these differences is the fact that
only the Pro series pianos are
controlling the return of the keys. The midi parameter
"velocity note off" is used for it, and
with Mark lll Series, it makes nothing.

Second, there are differences between uprights and
grands pianos, and one of those is the
mechanic of the hammer itself. It's hard to explain,
but the DK mecanism, while working
on an upright, is not using the long part of the key,
but the short one, which is lested. It
means that, when DK stops playing a key, the key
returns to her initial position faster and
stronger than with a finger.

It's a Yamaha's french specialist of the DK who told me
that. So, there is *nothing* to do
with my problem (the only solution is to by a pro-grand
piano, wich is veeeery expensive,
and unfortunally I don't have the house to contain
it...).

Those woody sounds are disturbing, but only if you play
few notes, and you want to record
a little close to the harmony table, ok.
But "adios" to Debussy-like, Arvo P\ufffdrt-like,....
Peyrony-like (that's my name :\ufffd)  )

WHat do you think of that ?





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

To Post a message to the group, send it to:
disklavier@...

To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's
founder and moderator, send it to:
disklavier-owner@...

To reach our group's web site go to:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier

Todd's family web site was completely updated
012/22/03.  It contains some fun disklavier content and
links to midi sites among many other things, The url
is:
http://MuncyFamily.com

THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP?
If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are
getting too much mail, go the the web site and change
your email delivery option instead.  That will fix the
problem, while maintaining your access to the group.
If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank
email to:
disklavier-unsubscribe@...

Know someone who wants to join?  Have them send a blank
email to:
disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this
link:
http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join

Yahoo! Groups Links

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