Yahoo Groups archive
Thread
2001-06-14 by Joan Galt
What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi files for the disklavier? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
2001-06-14 by Robert E. Welcyng
The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range of 25 to 95. To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is helpful to first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity distribution. The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and lowest velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by a percentage, offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting all values below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there is no single right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to preserve maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for your piano room. With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to 127 will play with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with the same loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range of volume '0'. At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all note velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum sound output produced at volume '0' or '-3'. The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, depending on the DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume settings, it's best to avoid note velocities below 25. Joan Galt wrote: > > What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi > files for the disklavier? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
2001-06-14 by joannagalt@yahoo.com
Thank you for the extensive explanation. I will try your suggestions this weekend. Joan --- In disklavier@y..., "Robert E. Welcyng" <rwelcyng@a...> wrote: > The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range of 25 to 95. > > To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is helpful to > first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity distribution. > The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and lowest > velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. > > You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by a percentage, > offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting all values > below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there is no single > right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to preserve > maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for your piano > room. > > With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to 127 will play > with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. > > At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with the same > loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range of volume > '0'. > > At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all note > velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum sound output > produced at volume '0' or '-3'. > > The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, depending on the > DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume settings, it's
> best to avoid note velocities below 25. > > Joan Galt wrote: > > > > What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi > > files for the disklavier? > > > -- > Robert Welcyng > Anchorage, Alaska
2001-06-14 by Thomas N. Wheeler
Joan, A quick and effective means of controlling velocities on the disklavier is to adjust the velocities using Veloset in the dkv utils software package that is available within the files of the disklavier e-Groups site. Via a pair of sliders Veloset allows for adjustment of velocities and is a quite effective means of setting the dynamic range within a piece of music. Tom P.S. If you are unable to locate or download the dkv utilities for any reason, send me a private e-mail and I'll send the zipped package to you. The zipped file contains instructions for using these valuable utilities and is only 26 kB in size. joannagalt@... wrote:
> Thank you for the extensive explanation. I will try your > suggestions this weekend. > > Joan > > --- In disklavier@y..., "Robert E. Welcyng" <rwelcyng@a...> wrote: > >> The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range > > of 25 to 95. > >> To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is > > helpful to > >> first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity > > distribution. > >> The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and > > lowest > >> velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. >> >> You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by > > a percentage, > >> offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting > > all values > >> below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there > > is no single > >> right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to > > preserve > >> maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for > > your piano > >> room. >> >> With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to > > 127 will play > >> with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. >> >> At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with > > the same > >> loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range > > of volume > >> '0'. >> >> At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all > > note > >> velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum > > sound output > >> produced at volume '0' or '-3'. >> >> The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, > > depending on the > >> DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume > > settings, it's > >> best to avoid note velocities below 25. >> >> Joan Galt wrote: >> >>> What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi >>> files for the disklavier? >>> >> -- >> Robert Welcyng >> Anchorage, Alaska > > > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > >
2001-06-15 by Carol Beigel
I have used Veloset to "quiet" DKV files and find it worked great for quieting the piano part, but then I can't hear the ensemble sounds. I have set the TG balance to 100 so that is not the problem. Is there a way to adjust the volume of the ensemble sounds separately? All DKVs should be able to handle velocities of less than 25. In Maintenance Mode the PPP (softest) value can be adjusted for each note. The idea is to set it so the note just barely sounds. Depending upon the friction in the piano action, these PPP values can range from 4 to over 25. Since the volume is usually too loud on a DKV, you usually don't have to worry about setting the PPP values too low as you can always turn up the volume. My wanting to lower the volume on the music I play on my upright Mark II is to be able to set the volume control to nothing lower than -4. At -4, the soft pedal is engaged - moving the hammer rail closer to the strings and thereby putting too much slush is the touch of the piano keys. If I forget to reset the volume control to greater to -4 (-3 to 0) when I want to play the piano, then the touch of the keys is mushy. You can set the velocity as a percentage using Giebler. I noticed in the advertisement for Power Tracks Pro Audio 7.0 the mixer has been enhanced with a new Master Vomume control that allows you to change overall levels without affeecting individual tracks. Does anyone have experince with this? Carol Beigel >From: "Thomas N. Wheeler" <tnwheeler@...> >Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com >To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Ideal Range for Velocity >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:38:44 -0400 > >Joan, > >A quick and effective means of controlling velocities on the disklavier >is to adjust the velocities using Veloset in the dkv utils software >package that is available within the files of the disklavier e-Groups >site. Via a pair of sliders Veloset allows for adjustment of velocities >and is a quite effective means of setting the dynamic range within a >piece of music. > >Tom > >P.S. If you are unable to locate or download the dkv utilities for any >reason, send me a private e-mail and I'll send the zipped package to >you. The zipped file contains instructions for using these valuable >utilities and is only 26 kB in size. > >joannagalt@... wrote: > >>Thank you for the extensive explanation. I will try your >>suggestions this weekend. >> >>Joan >> >>--- In disklavier@y..., "Robert E. Welcyng" <rwelcyng@a...> wrote: >> >>>The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range >> >>of 25 to 95. >> >>>To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is >> >>helpful to >> >>>first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity >> >>distribution. >> >>>The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and >> >>lowest >> >>>velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. >>> >>>You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by >> >>a percentage, >> >>>offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting >> >>all values >> >>>below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there >> >>is no single >> >>>right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to >> >>preserve >> >>>maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for >> >>your piano >> >>>room. >>> >>>With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to >> >>127 will play >> >>>with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. >>> >>>At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with >> >>the same >> >>>loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range >> >>of volume >> >>>'0'. >>> >>>At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all >> >>note >> >>>velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum >> >>sound output >> >>>produced at volume '0' or '-3'. >>> >>>The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, >> >>depending on the >> >>>DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume >> >>settings, it's >> >>>best to avoid note velocities below 25. >>> >>>Joan Galt wrote: >>> >>>>What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi >>>>files for the disklavier? >>>> >>>-- >>>Robert Welcyng >>>Anchorage, Alaska >> >> >> >>To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... >> >>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and >>moderator, send it to: >>disklavier-owner@... >> >>To reach our group's web site go to: >>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier >> >>Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains >>some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, >>The url is: >>http://MuncyFamily.com >> >>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? >>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, >>go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That >>will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you >>insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: >>disklavier-unsubscribe@... >> >>Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: >>disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: >>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join >> >> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
2001-06-15 by PianoBench@aol.com
Hello Everone, In a message dated 6/14/01 11:02:50 AM, joannagalt@... writes: << What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi files for the disklavier? >> The velocity ranges for the non-piano parts can vary considerably. Because you have both balance control on the Disklavier as well as volume control for the speakers, that issue is not nearly as critical as the velocity issue for the piano part itself. If you record a piano part on the Disklavier with a modest to significant dynamic range, you will probably see velocities from 40 to 95 or 100. If you record a piano part with a really large range (i.e. a Chopin sonata), you will see velocities in the range of 25 to 105 with an occasional spike up to abut 110. Note that the Disklavier piano recordings natively have a MIDI volume level (controller 7) set to 100. Usually when I get a MIDI file that was not recorded on the Disklavier, the piano part sounds too loud. The first thing that I do is set controller 7 equal to 100. Then, if necessary, I subtract 10, 20, or 30 velocity points off of all of the note-on messages. Generally that satisfies me. Regards, PianoBench
2001-06-15 by Robert E. Welcyng
Carol Beigel wrote: > > I have used Veloset to "quiet" DKV files and find it worked great for > quieting the piano part, but then I can't hear the ensemble sounds. I have > set the TG balance to 100 so that is not the problem. Is there a way to > adjust the volume of the ensemble sounds separately? +++ An application such as Cakewalk allows you to 'select' the events that you wish to edit. So, you would select and modify only the piano events and leave everything else intact. > > All DKVs should be able to handle velocities of less than 25. In > Maintenance Mode the PPP (softest) value can be adjusted for each note. The > idea is to set it so the note just barely sounds. Depending upon the > friction in the piano action, these PPP values can range from 4 to over 25. > Since the volume is usually too loud on a DKV, you usually don't have to > worry about setting the PPP values too low as you can always turn up the > volume. +++ My Mark II does indeed respond to all note velocities between 1 and 127. The catches are these: 1) For volume settings 0 through -4, note velocities of 93 or greater (for Vol=0), or note velocities of 125 or greater (for Vol= -4), all play with the same sound output. In other words, within in those those upper velocity ranges, there is zero dynamic range. 2) If you plot the family of volume control response curves for volume settings 0 through -5, you will find that the sound output in dB is nearly linear for the range of note velocities from 21 upward (until limiting is reached). The response below note velocity 21 is harder to describe in words and depends upon the volume setting. But, for example, at volume setting -2, a note of velocity 13 sounds several dB louder than the same note at velocity 21! (I recommend, for Mark II, changing velocities below 25 to 25.) > > My wanting to lower the volume on the music I play on my upright Mark II is > to be able to set the volume control to nothing lower than -4. At -4, the > soft pedal is engaged - moving the hammer rail closer to the strings and > thereby putting too much slush is the touch of the piano keys. If I forget > to reset the volume control to greater to -4 (-3 to 0) when I want to play > the piano, then the touch of the keys is mushy. +++ Then you will want to keep your volume control at no lower than -4, and edit the note velocities in the file. An alternative is to drive the DKV with an external sequencer. Cakewalk, for example, permits you to adjust the velocities (in Track View) while driving your DKV and without permanently modifying the MIDI file. > > You can set the velocity as a percentage using Giebler. I noticed in the > advertisement for Power Tracks Pro Audio 7.0 the mixer has been enhanced > with a new Master Vomume control that allows you to change overall levels > without affeecting individual tracks. Does anyone have experince with this? +++ For most users who aren't too particular and who just want to quiet a loud piece, I'm sure percentage scaling works just fine. Remember though, that say you scale all velocities to 70%, a note originally at velocity 25 will now be 18. Worse, if you subtract 10, 20, or 30, as has been suggested, what happens to the original note at 25? If you have a good performance to start with and wish to preserve its quality but modify its velocities for compatibility with the DKV, you will want to treat your good file a little more carefully and that is not difficult. Suppose, for example, your file has velocities ranging from 16 to 126 and you wish to map them to 25 through 95. First note that the original range is 126 minus 16, or 110. The final range will be 95 minus 25, or 70. So, divide 70 by 110 which gives you 64%. So first scale the velocities by 64%. Note that 64% of 126 is 81. Therefore, you will now need to add 14 to all velocities and your new range is 25 to 95 as desired. > > Carol Beigel > > >From: "Thomas N. Wheeler" <tnwheeler@...> > >Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com > >To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Ideal Range for Velocity > >Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:38:44 -0400 > > > >Joan, > > > >A quick and effective means of controlling velocities on the disklavier > >is to adjust the velocities using Veloset in the dkv utils software > >package that is available within the files of the disklavier e-Groups > >site. Via a pair of sliders Veloset allows for adjustment of velocities > >and is a quite effective means of setting the dynamic range within a > >piece of music. > > > >Tom > > > >P.S. If you are unable to locate or download the dkv utilities for any > >reason, send me a private e-mail and I'll send the zipped package to > >you. The zipped file contains instructions for using these valuable > >utilities and is only 26 kB in size. > > > >joannagalt@... wrote: > > > >>Thank you for the extensive explanation. I will try your > >>suggestions this weekend. > >> > >>Joan > >> > >>--- In disklavier@y..., "Robert E. Welcyng" <rwelcyng@a...> wrote: > >> > >>>The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range > >> > >>of 25 to 95. > >> > >>>To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is > >> > >>helpful to > >> > >>>first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity > >> > >>distribution. > >> > >>>The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and > >> > >>lowest > >> > >>>velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. > >>> > >>>You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by > >> > >>a percentage, > >> > >>>offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting > >> > >>all values > >> > >>>below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there > >> > >>is no single > >> > >>>right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to > >> > >>preserve > >> > >>>maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for > >> > >>your piano > >> > >>>room. > >>> > >>>With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to > >> > >>127 will play > >> > >>>with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. > >>> > >>>At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with > >> > >>the same > >> > >>>loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range > >> > >>of volume > >> > >>>'0'. > >>> > >>>At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all > >> > >>note > >> > >>>velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum > >> > >>sound output > >> > >>>produced at volume '0' or '-3'. > >>> > >>>The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, > >> > >>depending on the > >> > >>>DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume > >> > >>settings, it's > >> > >>>best to avoid note velocities below 25. > >>> > >>>Joan Galt wrote: > >>> > >>>>What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi > >>>>files for the disklavier? > >>>> > >>>-- > >>>Robert Welcyng > >>>Anchorage, Alaska > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > >> > >>To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and > >>moderator, send it to: > >>disklavier-owner@... > >> > >>To reach our group's web site go to: > >>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > >> > >>Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains > >>some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, > >>The url is: > >>http://MuncyFamily.com > >> > >>THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > >>If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, > >>go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That > >>will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you > >>insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > >>disklavier-unsubscribe@... > >> > >>Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > >>disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > >>http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > >> > >> > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
2001-06-15 by Thomas N. Wheeler
Carol, I do not believe there is any way to use veloset in dkv utilities to adjust the volume of ensemble parts only. Adjustments in dkv apply to the overall spread of velocities of all instruments. However, by importing a midi file into Cakewalk (or any other good sequencer) you can easily adjust the volumes of all parts using the volume (midi controller 7 value). For midi files to be ultimately played on my disklavier, I use a setting of 90 or 100 for the piano parts and adjust the volumes of the ensemble parts to my satisfaction. For example, I nearly always use a volume of 60 for the bass and drum parts for midi files played on my disklavier because my disklavier (a DC3 IIXG model) sits in the corner of our living room which is a relatively small room and rather bright sounding with hard walls. I think that the speaker system to which your tone generator is attached matters greatly in setting the volumes of individual ensemble parts on the disklavier. For example, I have a Rush speaker mounted under the sound board of my disklavier. The Rush is an outstanding speaker and really produces prodigious amounts of very nice sounding bass. I actually installed an equalizer between my disklavier's tone generator output and the Rush speaker to control the 62 kH bass and tone it down a bit. Again, this was no doubt necessary because of the corner placement of the disklavier and acoustics of my living room. I nearly always listen to my disklavier at the lowest volume setting (-10 dB). I don't find any mushiness in the keys when I play and I play my disklavier now more than I listen to software on it. However, I should also quickly add that I am a very inexperienced pianist and my sensitivity to the touch of the disklavier's keys may not be as well developed as yours. I have Power Tracks 7.0, but I have not used it very much. I'll look into whether it has the ability to tone down the overall volume level of a musical selection without interfering with the balance between tracks. The real difficulty in adjusting the relative balance of ensemble and piano parts comes from the fact that midi files sound quite different when played on my disklavier than when played back on my computer's sound card. I have taken two steps to address this problem. One is to attach a lap top computer to my disklavier's To Host port and do the final balancing of midi files directly at the disklavier so I can adjust both piano velocities and ensemble volumes to my satisfaction for my piano and my living room. Another step that I have taken involves the main computer in the rear of my home where I do most of my midi work. I have recently (after six months of trying) been able to purchase a Yamaha MU15 portable XG tone generator which I have now attached to this computer. I find that this XG tone generator is far superior to the tone generator in my Creative Live Sound Card and makes it easier to get the ensemble instrument volumes more in balance with the piano parts before I go to the disklavier with the file. Of course it is still not the same as listening to the file on the disklavier, but it is one step closer. Finally, I have equipped the lap top computer setting on my disklavier with an ethernet wireless networking link to the computer in the rear of our house. This works superbly and allows me to carry out the high speed transfer of files at will between the two computers. Tom Carol Beigel wrote:
> I have used Veloset to "quiet" DKV files and find it worked great for > quieting the piano part, but then I can't hear the ensemble sounds. I have > set the TG balance to 100 so that is not the problem. Is there a way to > adjust the volume of the ensemble sounds separately? > > All DKVs should be able to handle velocities of less than 25. In > Maintenance Mode the PPP (softest) value can be adjusted for each note. The > idea is to set it so the note just barely sounds. Depending upon the > friction in the piano action, these PPP values can range from 4 to over 25. > Since the volume is usually too loud on a DKV, you usually don't have to > worry about setting the PPP values too low as you can always turn up the > volume. > > My wanting to lower the volume on the music I play on my upright Mark II is > to be able to set the volume control to nothing lower than -4. At -4, the > soft pedal is engaged - moving the hammer rail closer to the strings and > thereby putting too much slush is the touch of the piano keys. If I forget > to reset the volume control to greater to -4 (-3 to 0) when I want to play > the piano, then the touch of the keys is mushy. > > You can set the velocity as a percentage using Giebler. I noticed in the > advertisement for Power Tracks Pro Audio 7.0 the mixer has been enhanced > with a new Master Vomume control that allows you to change overall levels > without affeecting individual tracks. Does anyone have experince with this? > > Carol Beigel > > > >> From: "Thomas N. Wheeler" <tnwheeler@...> >> Reply-To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com >> To: disklavier@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [disklavier] Re: Ideal Range for Velocity >> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:38:44 -0400 >> >> Joan, >> >> A quick and effective means of controlling velocities on the disklavier >> is to adjust the velocities using Veloset in the dkv utils software >> package that is available within the files of the disklavier e-Groups >> site. Via a pair of sliders Veloset allows for adjustment of velocities >> and is a quite effective means of setting the dynamic range within a >> piece of music. >> >> Tom >> >> P.S. If you are unable to locate or download the dkv utilities for any >> reason, send me a private e-mail and I'll send the zipped package to >> you. The zipped file contains instructions for using these valuable >> utilities and is only 26 kB in size. >> >> joannagalt@... wrote: >> >>> Thank you for the extensive explanation. I will try your >>> suggestions this weekend. >>> >>> Joan >>> >>> --- In disklavier@y..., "Robert E. Welcyng" <rwelcyng@a...> wrote: >>> >>>> The short story is . . . keep the note velocities within the range >>> >>> of 25 to 95. >>> >>>> To decide what velocity changes to make for any given file, it is >>> >>> helpful to >>> >>>> first produce and study a histogram of the original note velocity >>> >>> distribution. >>> >>>> The histogram will enable you to determine whether the highest and >>> >>> lowest >>> >>>> velocity values are outliers or part of the pattern. >>>> >>>> You may use a combination of note velocity alterations: scaling by >>> >>> a percentage, >>> >>>> offsetting by adding or subtracting a constant value, or setting >>> >>> all values >>> >>>> below 25 to 25 (or above 95 to 95). It takes some judgment--there >>> >>> is no single >>> >>>> right answer. Your approach may depend upon whether you wish to >>> >>> preserve >>> >>>> maximum dynamic range or you are trying to tame a file too loud for >>> >>> your piano >>> >>>> room. >>>> >>>> With the Mark II set to volume '0', all velocity values from 93 to >>> >>> 127 will play >>> >>>> with the same loudness--that is, limiting occurs. >>>> >>>> At volume '-3', all velocity values from 96 to 127 will play with >>> >>> the same >>> >>>> loudness and at the same level as they do within the limiting range >>> >>> of volume >>> >>>> '0'. >>>> >>>> At volume '-6', the Mark II DKV will respond proportionally to all >>> >>> note >>> >>>> velocities in the range of 25 to 127, but at less than the maximum >>> >>> sound output >>> >>>> produced at volume '0' or '-3'. >>>> >>>> The Mark II does strange things with note velocities below 25, >>> >>> depending on the >>> >>>> DKV volume setting. For consistent responses at all DKV volume >>> >>> settings, it's >>> >>>> best to avoid note velocities below 25. >>>> >>>> Joan Galt wrote: >>>> >>>>> What is the ideal range to set the velocity of midi >>>>> files for the disklavier? >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Robert Welcyng >>>> Anchorage, Alaska >>> >>> >>> >>> To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... >>> >>> To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and >>> moderator, send it to: >>> disklavier-owner@... >>> >>> To reach our group's web site go to: >>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier >>> >>> Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains >>> some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, >>> The url is: >>> http://MuncyFamily.com >>> >>> THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? >>> If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, >>> go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That >>> will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you >>> insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: >>> disklavier-unsubscribe@... >>> >>> Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: >>> disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: >>> http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join >>> >>> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > >
2001-06-16 by Carol Beigel
Thank you for the responses on balancing the velocities on my DKV files. When you refer to Cakewalk, which program are you referring to? I have Cakewalk Home Studio 9 and Scorewriter, but for some reason these products continue to crash my computer - especially when the MIDI port is in use by another program. I know you can't run these products using a 16-bit soundcard, and things did get better when I installed a 32-bit card in my computer, but I have been dissappointed using Cakewalk products on the PC. Cakewalk Metro 5 however, seems to run OK on my Powerbook (Mac). Only on upright pianos will the touch of the keys feel mushy starting at volume settings of -6 (not -4 as I previously posted) as that is the point where the soft pedal is engaged. There really is no such thing as a "soft" pedal on either an upright or a grand piano. The way this pedal works on an upright piano is simply to move the hammers closer to the strings, thereby limiting the distance the hammers travel. On a grand piano, the action is shifted to the right just far enough so the piano hammers are either 1) hitting one less string, or 2) the hammer is now hitting the string not in the well-worn groove, but on the softer, more fluffy felt between the grooves. The feel of the piano keys is not affected when using the shift (soft) pedal on a grand piano. My concern as a piano technician is the difficulty you are encountering not being able to play files using a velocity of less than 25 without losing the dynamic range. Are we talking an upright or a grand piano here? The Disklavier should be able to play the piano as softly as someone sitting at the keyboard can, and no softer! I personally feel that a velocity of 100 is too high for a piano action - espcially an upright. Played at that velocity over time, the center pins will start walking out of the flanges. Am I correct in assuming that a MIDI file with the piano part set at 100 played at a volume of -10 means the file is being played at 90? Still too loud! Each time your piano is tuned, is the technician also running the Maintence Mode? The DKV occassionally needs recalibrated to compensate for the wear and tear on the piano action, and the resulting changes in its geometry. If the piano or the DKV gets too far out of whack messages will start showing up in the Error History. It is also very important that the minimum velocity (PPP) for each key be set correctly, and I suspect this is where we are talking about limiting the voltage. The volume control on the DKV is not really a volume control like on a stereo, but a limiter. You have to have enough voltage flowing thru the solenoids to make them fire. For the average grand piano, the minimum PPP value (the amount of voltage needed to make a sound) is about 4 to 11, depending upon the friction encountered in the piano action. When running the Keyboard Measurement in the Maintenance Mode, the DKV is trying to find a range of voltages after proper adjustment has been done to the piano action and pedals. I am a new user of the Disklavier, and admit to having a knowlege gap in how to play with the thing! But I do know that I would like to learn to "tweak" the system (just like most of my DKV clients!) so that I am not constantly adjusting the volume of the piano and the speakers! Carol Beigel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
2001-06-16 by Robert E. Welcyng
Carol Beigel wrote: > > Thank you for the responses on balancing the velocities on my DKV files. > When you refer to Cakewalk, which program are you referring to? +++ I should have specified "Cakewalk Pro Audio 9." Someone once pointed out to me that Home Studio was lacking in velocity editing functions. I'm pretty sure your Power Tracks provides everything you need to both scale or add or subtract velocity to selected events. You'll certainly want to check that out before buying another Cakewalk (which is being phased out by a their new grandelephant product of another name anyway). > > My concern as a piano technician is the difficulty you are encountering not > being able to play files using a velocity of less than 25 without losing the > dynamic range. Are we talking an upright or a grand piano here? +++ In my case, a grand, a Mark II C3. As PianoBench has pointed out, when recording, it's pretty hard to produce note velocities in the teens (or much over 100) on a DKV. Quite often the low values come from unintended accidental notes that never sounded while recording. However, files made from other keyboards such as you might download or buy from PG Music often have values outside the range of 22 to 95. Those keyboards and the DKV's simply don't match, so you wouldn't expect the reproductions to do so either. The > Disklavier should be able to play the piano as softly as someone sitting at > the keyboard can, and no softer! I personally feel that a velocity of 100 > is too high for a piano action - espcially an upright. Played at that > velocity over time, the center pins will start walking out of the flanges. +++ That is surely one reason that Yamaha has built in actual hammer velocity limiting regardless of how high the velocity is in the driving file. As you appreciate, actions do wear from use, more so with hard use, whether they are driven by bleeding fingers or solenoids. > Am I correct in assuming that a MIDI file with the piano part set at 100 > played at a volume of -10 means the file is being played at 90? Still too > loud! +++ No, that's not correct. A note of velocity 100 played at volume -9 is about 14 dB down in loudness from being played at volume 0, which is the same loudness as the same note being at a velocity of about 38 with the volume set at 0. That's a mouthful and much easier to visualize on a graph of the response curves which I may publish sometime for those of us afflicted with velocity-mania. > > Each time your piano is tuned, is the technician also running the Maintence > Mode? +++ I've had a number pins replaced with larger gauge ones as friction is lost and poor ppp control results when playing manually. The DKV occassionally needs recalibrated to compensate for the wear > and tear on the piano action, and the resulting changes in its geometry. If > the piano or the DKV gets too far out of whack messages will start showing > up in the Error History. > > It is also very important that the minimum velocity (PPP) for each key be > set correctly, and I suspect this is where we are talking about limiting the > voltage. The volume control on the DKV is not really a volume control like > on a stereo, but a limiter. You have to have enough voltage flowing thru > the solenoids to make them fire. For the average grand piano, the minimum > PPP value (the amount of voltage needed to make a sound) is about 4 to 11, > depending upon the friction encountered in the piano action. When running > the Keyboard Measurement in the Maintenance Mode, the DKV is trying to find > a range of voltages after proper adjustment has been done to the piano > action and pedals. > > I am a new user of the Disklavier, and admit to having a knowlege gap in how > to play with the thing! But I do know that I would like to learn to "tweak" > the system (just like most of my DKV clients!) so that I am not constantly > adjusting the volume of the piano and the speakers! > > Carol Beigel > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Robert Welcyng Anchorage, Alaska
2001-06-16 by PianoBench@aol.com
Hello Everyone, In a message dated 6/15/01 11:42:21 PM, Carol writes: << My concern as a piano technician is the difficulty you are encountering not being able to play files using a velocity of less than 25 without losing the dynamic range. Are we talking an upright or a grand piano here? >> My understanding is that the typical Disklavier grand, when calibrated to factory specs, will play back low velocity notes with a minimum velocity of 20-25 and that the typical Disklavier upright will play them with a minimum velocity of about 35. I am not sure to what extent that threshold is impacted by the volume dial on the instrument. The Disklavier Pro, on the other hand, will play back notes without that velocity threshold. This means that notes played without the hammers hitting the strings will play back in the same way. The Pro will also play back the loudest notes a slight bit louder (i.e. more accurately) that the non-Pro. I have been told by Yamaha that the minimum velocity thresholds only apply when the data is read from the internal floppy drive but do not apply when the data comes in from an external MIDI source. I have not experimented in order to verify this fact, but you might want to do a comparison test. Regards, PianoBench
2001-06-16 by Thomas N. Wheeler
Carol, I was referring to the use of Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 as the software sequencer which I use to adjust internet midi files for playback on the disklavier. I have had no problems whatsoever with Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 crashing or not working properly on the PC that I am using (an 850 MHz AMD Athlon processor and Windows 98SE). One thing to note in Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, however, is that if you scale velocities within the tracks display, this scaling will not permanently alter the file but will only alter the note velocities on playback from Cakewalk. To alter the velocities in the midi file itself in Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 select Edit>Scale Velocity and you can then alter the velocities in the midi file either by an absolute amount or scale by a percentage. Of course, this can be done on a track by track basis to yield the desired balance of various instruments (including the disklavier piano) within the music. There is an excellent book (435 pages) entitled Cakewalk Power!" by Scott R. Garrigus available from Barnes & Noble which I have found to be an indispensable guide to Cakewalk Pro Audio 9. If you have only one sound card in your computer and another program is using the midi port, it is not unusual to have a crash result when you attempt to have another program address the same midi port. I have also recently purchased and started to use a software sequencer by Yamaha entitled XG Works (http://xgmidi.wtal.de/ ) which allows for very detailed editing of the XG voices produced by my Yamaha disklavier's tone generator. I t also allows for extensive adjustments to velocities and a score of other XG specific parameters. Tom Carol Beigel wrote:
> Thank you for the responses on balancing the velocities on my DKV files. > When you refer to Cakewalk, which program are you referring to? I have > Cakewalk Home Studio 9 and Scorewriter, but for some reason these products > continue to crash my computer - especially when the MIDI port is in use by > another program. I know you can't run these products using a 16-bit > soundcard, and things did get better when I installed a 32-bit card in my > computer, but I have been dissappointed using Cakewalk products on the PC. > Cakewalk Metro 5 however, seems to run OK on my Powerbook (Mac). > > Only on upright pianos will the touch of the keys feel mushy starting at > volume settings of -6 (not -4 as I previously posted) as that is the point > where the soft pedal is engaged. There really is no such thing as a "soft" > pedal on either an upright or a grand piano. The way this pedal works on an > upright piano is simply to move the hammers closer to the strings, thereby > limiting the distance the hammers travel. On a grand piano, the action is > shifted to the right just far enough so the piano hammers are either 1) > hitting one less string, or 2) the hammer is now hitting the string not in > the well-worn groove, but on the softer, more fluffy felt between the > grooves. The feel of the piano keys is not affected when using the shift > (soft) pedal on a grand piano. > > My concern as a piano technician is the difficulty you are encountering not > being able to play files using a velocity of less than 25 without losing the > dynamic range. Are we talking an upright or a grand piano here? The > Disklavier should be able to play the piano as softly as someone sitting at > the keyboard can, and no softer! I personally feel that a velocity of 100 > is too high for a piano action - espcially an upright. Played at that > velocity over time, the center pins will start walking out of the flanges. > Am I correct in assuming that a MIDI file with the piano part set at 100 > played at a volume of -10 means the file is being played at 90? Still too > loud! > > Each time your piano is tuned, is the technician also running the Maintence > Mode? The DKV occassionally needs recalibrated to compensate for the wear > and tear on the piano action, and the resulting changes in its geometry. If > the piano or the DKV gets too far out of whack messages will start showing > up in the Error History. > > It is also very important that the minimum velocity (PPP) for each key be > set correctly, and I suspect this is where we are talking about limiting the > voltage. The volume control on the DKV is not really a volume control like > on a stereo, but a limiter. You have to have enough voltage flowing thru > the solenoids to make them fire. For the average grand piano, the minimum > PPP value (the amount of voltage needed to make a sound) is about 4 to 11, > depending upon the friction encountered in the piano action. When running > the Keyboard Measurement in the Maintenance Mode, the DKV is trying to find > a range of voltages after proper adjustment has been done to the piano > action and pedals. > > I am a new user of the Disklavier, and admit to having a knowlege gap in how > to play with the thing! But I do know that I would like to learn to "tweak" > the system (just like most of my DKV clients!) so that I am not constantly > adjusting the volume of the piano and the speakers! > > Carol Beigel > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > To Post a message to the group, send it to: disklavier@... > > To Post a private message to Todd Muncy, the group's founder and moderator, send it to: > disklavier-owner@... > > To reach our group's web site go to: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier > > Todd's family web site was completely rewritten in June 2001 and contains some fun disklavier content and links to midi sites among other things, The url is: > http://MuncyFamily.com > > THINKING OF LEAVING THE GROUP? > If you are thinking of unsubcribing because you are getting too much mail, go the the web site and change your email delivery option instead. That will fix the problem, while maintaining your access to the group. If you insist on leaving us completely send a blank email to: > disklavier-unsubscribe@... > > Know someone who wants to join? Have them send a blank email to: > disklavier-subscribe@... or give them this link: > http://Yahoogroups.com/group/disklavier/join > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > >
2001-06-17 by webmaster@pianoman.myweb.nl
In addition: Cakewalk Sonar works fine also, but may be overkill. Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 is a great program too. --- In disklavier@y..., "Thomas N. Wheeler" <tnwheeler@n...> wrote: > Carol, > > I was referring to the use of Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 as the software > sequencer which I use to adjust internet midi files for playback on the > disklavier. I have had no problems whatsoever with Cakewalk Pro Audio > 9 crashing or not working properly on the PC that I am using (an 850 MHz > AMD Athlon processor and Windows 98SE). One thing to note in Cakewalk > Pro Audio 9, however, is that if you scale velocities within the tracks > display, this scaling will not permanently alter the file but will only > alter the note velocities on playback from Cakewalk. To alter the > velocities in the midi file itself in Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 select > Edit>Scale Velocity and you can then alter the velocities in the midi > file either by an absolute amount or scale by a percentage. Of course, > this can be done on a track by track basis to yield the desired balance > of various instruments (including the disklavier piano) within the > music. There is an excellent book (435 pages) entitled Cakewalk Power!" > by Scott R. Garrigus available from Barnes & Noble which I have found to > be an indispensable guide to Cakewalk Pro Audio 9. > > If you have only one sound card in your computer and another program is > using the midi port, it is not unusual to have a crash result when you > attempt to have another program address the same midi port. > > I have also recently purchased and started to use a software sequencer > by Yamaha entitled XG Works (http://xgmidi.wtal.de/ ) which allows for > very detailed editing of the XG voices produced by my Yamaha > disklavier's tone generator. I t also allows for extensive adjustments
> to velocities and a score of other XG specific parameters. > > Tom