Elektron Musical Instruments

Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?

On 4/26/06, roby <roby@...> wrote:
> hi, i was wondering if we will ever see a bit reduction addition to the
> effects section on both the machinedrum and monomachine.  since they
> both sport sample reduction, it would complement well.  maybe a hidden
> option in the global page of switching between distortion and bit
> reduction (since no one really uses bit reduction and distortion at the
> same time :) ), and using the distortion parameter to control it...
>
> also, in the machinedrum, it would be great (but i doubt it would be
> popular) to have a 'one' or 'half' mode for the lfo.  this would be
> great for gating sounds per trigger, specially the noise machine with a
> long decay.  anyway, it's along shot but it doesn't hurt to ask.
>
> --
> .roby
> http://www.sweet-trip.net
> http://www.myspace.com/sweettrip
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
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>


--
Tarekith
http://www.tarekith.com

hi, i was wondering if we will ever see a bit reduction addition to the 
effects section on both the machinedrum and monomachine.  since they 
both sport sample reduction, it would complement well.  maybe a hidden 
option in the global page of switching between distortion and bit 
reduction (since no one really uses bit reduction and distortion at the 
same time :) ), and using the distortion parameter to control it...

also, in the machinedrum, it would be great (but i doubt it would be 
popular) to have a 'one' or 'half' mode for the lfo.  this would be 
great for gating sounds per trigger, specially the noise machine with a 
long decay.  anyway, it's along shot but it doesn't hurt to ask.

-- 
.roby
http://www.sweet-trip.net
http://www.myspace.com/sweettrip

On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:03:24AM -0500, Tarekith wrote:
> Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?

yeah, the ROM/RAM machines in the uw upgrade.  nothing else,
which is a shame, because the bit reduction sounds
excellent, and i find the MD's sample rate reduction rather
naff and nowhere near as useful, musically.


-- 
yours,
niall.
.. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
http://syncretism.net
.. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..

sample rate reduction as far as i know, which is different from bit 
reduction

Tarekith wrote:
> Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?
>
> On 4/26/06, roby <roby@...> wrote:
>   
>> hi, i was wondering if we will ever see a bit reduction addition to the
>> effects section on both the machinedrum and monomachine.  since they
>> both sport sample reduction, it would complement well.  maybe a hidden
>> option in the global page of switching between distortion and bit
>> reduction (since no one really uses bit reduction and distortion at the
>> same time :) ), and using the distortion parameter to control it...
>>
>> also, in the machinedrum, it would be great (but i doubt it would be
>> popular) to have a 'one' or 'half' mode for the lfo.  this would be
>> great for gating sounds per trigger, specially the noise machine with a
>> long decay.  anyway, it's along shot but it doesn't hurt to ask.
>>
>> --
>> .roby
>> http://www.sweet-trip.net
>> http://www.myspace.com/sweettrip
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> --
> Tarekith
> http://www.tarekith.com
>
>
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>   

-- 
.roby
http://www.sweet-trip.net
http://www.myspace.com/sweettrip



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Funny, I love the SR reduction in the MD, I use it a lot.  Horses for
courses....

On 4/26/06, niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:03:24AM -0500, Tarekith wrote:
> > Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?
>
> yeah, the ROM/RAM machines in the uw upgrade.  nothing else,
> which is a shame, because the bit reduction sounds
> excellent, and i find the MD's sample rate reduction rather
> naff and nowhere near as useful, musically.
>
>
> --
> yours,
> niall.
> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
> http://syncretism.net
> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Tarekith
http://www.tarekith.com

i like it too.  but bit reduction to complement it would be nice.  too 
bad about it being available for the ram/rom machines only.  that lowers 
the chances of it being implemented anywhere else, if at all, i think.

Tarekith wrote:
> Funny, I love the SR reduction in the MD, I use it a lot.  Horses for
> courses....
>
> On 4/26/06, niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:03:24AM -0500, Tarekith wrote:
>>     
>>> Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?
>>>       
>> yeah, the ROM/RAM machines in the uw upgrade.  nothing else,
>> which is a shame, because the bit reduction sounds
>> excellent, and i find the MD's sample rate reduction rather
>> naff and nowhere near as useful, musically.
>>
>>
>> --
>> yours,
>> niall.
>> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .             .                 .
>> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around silence.
>> http://syncretism.net
>> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
>
> --
> Tarekith
> http://www.tarekith.com
>
>
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
.roby
http://www.sweet-trip.net
http://www.myspace.com/sweettrip



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The bit-depth reduction is extremely simple effect and very easy and fast  
to implement. In threory it's just amplifying with -x db and then +x db so  
that accuracy is being lost in the process. I even tried emulating it with  
the DIST and VOL in MM, but no luck. The negative DIST creates so much  
headroom that no VOL setting can bring it back to audible signal :/ And  
with less DIST the amplification difference is not great enough so that  
there is no audiable change in the signal.

Of course if alias-free BDR is needed, things get bit more complicated...  
but SRR isn't alias-free either.

Cheers,
- Sampsa

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:32:23 +0300, roby <roby@...> wrote:

> i like it too.  but bit reduction to complement it would be nice.  too
> bad about it being available for the ram/rom machines only.  that lowers
> the chances of it being implemented anywhere else, if at all, i think.
>
> Tarekith wrote:
>> Funny, I love the SR reduction in the MD, I use it a lot.  Horses for
>> courses....
>>
>> On 4/26/06, niall munnelly <aleph@...> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 11:03:24AM -0500, Tarekith wrote:
>>>
>>>> Err, don't some of the MD synths already have the BR option?
>>>>
>>> yeah, the ROM/RAM machines in the uw upgrade.  nothing else,
>>> which is a shame, because the bit reduction sounds
>>> excellent, and i find the MD's sample rate reduction rather
>>> naff and nowhere near as useful, musically.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> yours,
>>> niall.
>>> .. .  .   .    .     .       .           .              
>>> .                 .
>>> aleph null.                             a simple insinuation around  
>>> silence.
>>> http://syncretism.net
>>> .. .. gpg public key - http://www.aleph-null.net/niall.gpg .. ..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tarekith
>> http://www.tarekith.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>



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--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "Sampsa Lehtonen"
<sampsa.lehtonen@...> wrote:

> but SRR isn't alias-free either.

No, the whole point with SRR is to introduce aliasing. Alias free SRR
would just simply be a low pass filter, right?

Daniel

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:05:40 +0300, daniel_elektron <daniel@...>  
wrote:

>> but SRR isn't alias-free either.
>
> No, the whole point with SRR is to introduce aliasing. Alias free SRR
> would just simply be a low pass filter, right?

Well, yes and no. Normally you would apply alias-filter *before* the  
decimation (the actual SRR), but you can also apply it afterwards. For  
example, if I have a rapid sin wave, it turns into random-like square wave  
with large amount of SRR. But the result is aliased, the square wave is  
not bandwidth-limited if the playback is not interpolated in anyway. Same  
with the bit-depth reduction. So doing the SRR in high sampling rate and  
with aliasing filter afterwards ensures alias-free waveform. May sound  
stupid as the whole meaning of the SRR is to degrade the quality of the  
signal. But there is a small difference nonetheless :)

In fact, I take my words back. It would take more inspection to tell  
whether the result in MM's SRR produces aliased waveforms or not. And it  
isn't probably even worth it.

Btw, daniel. Can you comment on my question about the lfos with hold?...

Cheers,
Sampsa

>Well, yes and no. Normally you would apply alias-filter *before* the 
>decimation (the actual SRR), but you can also apply it afterwards. 

If it's applied afterwards the result will be aliasing. The 'internal 
sampler' wont know if the sample points it's about to digitize is a 
part of the desired audio spectrum or the frequencies above half the 
sample rate. The end result will be alias tones in the spectrum below 
half the samplerate. 

>For  
>example, if I have a rapid sin wave, it turns into random-like square 
wave  
>with large amount of SRR. But the result is aliased, the square wave 
is  
>not bandwidth-limited if the playback is not interpolated in anyway. 

Random-like square wave..?

Sample rate deals with frequencies. It's rather black and white, 
they're either below half the sample rate or above. Those below will 
be reproduced with 100% accuracy. Those above will contaminate the 
real sampling spectra with alias tones and must be filtered out for 
proper sampling. There is no quantization in the timeline of sampling, 
which is what sampling rate is concerned with. The sample clock is 
steady, the sample values are not moved back and forth in time to fit 
within a grid.

Quantization only applies to the level of each sample, the bit depth. 

 
>n fact, I take my words back. It would take more inspection to tell  
>hether the result in MM's SRR produces aliased waveforms or not. And 
it  
>isn't probably even worth it.

I'll parrot Daniel, if the SRR doesn't produce aliasing, it would be 
the same as a plain filter. If it doesn't sound like a filter but 
produces additional tones in the system, it's aliasing. No closer 
inspection needed. ;)
 

This may be old news, but these are often confused subjects. Hope this 
may clear things up a little.


Andreas

PS: perhaps the sampling theory paper at lavryengineering.com's 
support pages may be useful.