Elektron Musical Instruments

I always record CC info on a separate track anyway

the reasons for that are multiple:  with cubase's piano roll (key edit, I think), you have to split the screen between the actual piano roll and the space below for controller info.  Using a separate track allows you to allocate all the space to controller info so you don't have to redo it everytime you go into the track.  also, if you need to chop up a track or, more likely, hate the whole thing, you can just delete the CC info without deleting your notes.  and with MD's MIDI implementation you have to, at least for those controllers that use the three channels other than the one used for note on/off information.




Anthony J. Justman
Legal Strategies Group
5905 Christie Avenue
Emeryville, CA  94608-1925
Tel:  (510) 450-9600
Fax:  (510) 450-9601
email: ajj@lsglaw.com

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>>> mrhardacid@... 06/03/02 02:37PM >>>

I had just sent a suggestion to the guys at elektron for a new MIDI mode 
which would use only one channel.  The controllers would be set up to map to 
the actual buttons on the MD instead of having a controller for EVERY 
machine parameter spread across 4 channels, you would have 8 controllers for 
the parameter knobs, 1 controller for the [SYNTHESIS/EFFECTS/ROUTING] 
button, 1 controller for the SOUND SELECT KNOB, etc...  Then you would 
record or send the actual button sequences to get to what to what you needed 
to control.

You of course would still have the option to have the MIDI setup the way it 
is right now also.

This is the way the Yamaha DX100 works (in sysex), it is a bit wierd at 
first, but it would make things alot lighter on the MIDI control side.

cheers
ripe


>From: "Anthony Justman" <ajj@...>
>Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
>Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 14:46:58 -0700
>
>I always record CC info on a separate track anyway
>
>the reasons for that are multiple:  with cubase's piano roll (key edit, I 
>think), you have to split the screen between the actual piano roll and the 
>space below for controller info.  Using a separate track allows you to 
>allocate all the space to controller info so you don't have to redo it 
>everytime you go into the track.  also, if you need to chop up a track or, 
>more likely, hate the whole thing, you can just delete the CC info without 
>deleting your notes.  and with MD's MIDI implementation you have to, at 
>least for those controllers that use the three channels other than the one 
>used for note on/off information.


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so similar to using BankSelect and Program Change in combination when accessing sounds in a synth with more than 128 programs?

As an option, it would be good to have, but it's not going to decrease the amount of MIDI data than the current implementation because if you've recorded data for 10 controllers, you're going to have data for 10 controllers in either configuration.  Also, if it's like using BankSelect, you'll always have a delay before the controller switching between synth/fx/routing makes the switch which may cause some difficulty.

I dunno, I'm not a MIDI guru ...

Anthony J. Justman
Legal Strategies Group
5905 Christie Avenue
Emeryville, CA  94608-1925
Tel:  (510) 450-9600
Fax:  (510) 450-9601
email: ajj@...

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged.  Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message.  If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail ajj@..., and delete the message. Thank you very much.


>>> ripe@... 06/03/02 03:00PM >>>

oh wait, I thinking that you're suggesting using the MD to send the controller info, in which case you are right that it would be easier than setting up virtual controllers in the sequencer...

Anthony J. Justman
Legal Strategies Group
5905 Christie Avenue
Emeryville, CA  94608-1925
Tel:  (510) 450-9600
Fax:  (510) 450-9601
email: ajj@...

This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged.  Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message.  If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail ajj@..., and delete the message. Thank you very much.


>>> ripe@... 06/03/02 03:00PM >>>

>oh wait, I thinking that you're suggesting using the MD to send the 
>controller info, in which case you are right that it would be easier than 
>setting up virtual controllers in the sequencer...



yeah, easier that way.
Each parameter of each machine uses a different CC#. As each channel only 
has 127 CC# the MD has to use 4 midi channels. Now, how can we record 4 
tracks at the same time in cubase, and make then accept only tyhe right midi 
channel? I guess this easily done in LOgic (once you get into the enviroment 
stuff, but is this possible using cubase?

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I don't know why they didn't just program it to use non-registered 
parameters... that would simplify everything, and as far as I know 
every modern sequencer supports them...


--- In elektron-users@y..., "r_i_ p_e" <ripe@s...> wrote:
> I had just sent a suggestion to the guys at elektron for a new MIDI 
mode 
> which would use only one channel.  The controllers would be set up 
to map to 
> the actual buttons on the MD instead of having a controller for 
EVERY 
> machine parameter spread across 4 channels, you would have 8 
controllers for 
> the parameter knobs, 1 controller for the 
[SYNTHESIS/EFFECTS/ROUTING] 
> button, 1 controller for the SOUND SELECT KNOB, etc...  Then you 
would 
> record or send the actual button sequences to get to what to what 
you needed 
> to control.
> 
> You of course would still have the option to have the MIDI setup 
the way it 
> is right now also.
> 
> This is the way the Yamaha DX100 works (in sysex), it is a bit 
wierd at 
> first, but it would make things alot lighter on the MIDI control 
side.
> 
> cheers
> ripe
> 
> 
> >From: "Anthony Justman" <ajj@l...>
> >Reply-To: elektron-users@y...
> >To: <elektron-users@y...>
> >Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
> >Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 14:46:58 -0700
> >
> >I always record CC info on a separate track anyway
> >
> >the reasons for that are multiple:  with cubase's piano roll (key 
edit, I 
> >think), you have to split the screen between the actual piano roll 
and the 
> >space below for controller info.  Using a separate track allows 
you to 
> >allocate all the space to controller info so you don't have to 
redo it 
> >everytime you go into the track.  also, if you need to chop up a 
track or, 
> >more likely, hate the whole thing, you can just delete the CC info 
without 
> >deleting your notes.  and with MD's MIDI implementation you have 
to, at 
> >least for those controllers that use the three channels other than 
the one 
> >used for note on/off information.
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: 
http://mobile.msn.com

>>>>> mrhardacid  writes:

  m> I don't know why they didn't just program it to use
  m> non-registered parameters... that would simplify everything, and
  m> as far as I know every modern sequencer supports them...

     yes, but nrpn is not as trivially (or even at all) possible if
     you're using a hardware controller.  i'd imagine that many people
     who enjoy the hands-on aspect of the MD might also shy away from
     "heavy" computer sequencer programming if they use a c.s. at all.

     cheers,
     k.

-- 
kevin montuori

I own two hardware sequencers, and both support NRPN:  MPC2000XL 
and Emu E6400 Ultra... What sequencers don't support it?  MMT-8, 
maybe?  That's why I said "modern" :)


--- In elektron-users@y..., kevin montuori <montuori@a...> wrote:
> >>>>> mrhardacid  writes:
> 
>   m> I don't know why they didn't just program it to use
>   m> non-registered parameters... that would simplify everything, 
and
>   m> as far as I know every modern sequencer supports them...
> 
>      yes, but nrpn is not as trivially (or even at all) possible if
>      you're using a hardware controller.  i'd imagine that many 
people
>      who enjoy the hands-on aspect of the MD might also shy away 
from
>      "heavy" computer sequencer programming if they use a c.s. at 
all.

>>>>> mrhardacid  writes:

  m> I own two hardware sequencers, and both support NRPN: MPC2000XL
  m> and Emu E6400 Ultra... What sequencers don't support it?  

     i had the doepfer schaltwerk in mind.  i was also thinking that
     if i were crazy enough to try, the MD could be controlled from
     the Q or XTk panel, because the waldorfs send only CC.

     just to clarify -- i don't have anything against nrpn
     particularly, i was just offering a reason why elektron might
     have shied away from them.

     cheers,
     k.


-- 
kevin montuori

Yes,  this was the reason I didn't suggest NRPN, since the added complexity 
and controller resolution would not add much benefit in terms of usability.

My suggestion was trying to reduce the need for 4 MIDI channels (not MIDI 
bandwidth), and also to make it possible to have a standard controller box 
(PC1600, control freak, etc) control all MD parameters from a single 
'preset'.  You could also record an entire editing 'session' via MIDI and 
every single button push would be recorded, including pressing the step 
triggers, and somehow parameter locks (parameter knob presses).

The current setup needs ((8 x 3) x 16) = 384 controllers just for the 
parameter knobs for each machine, which can't be easily set up in a 
controller box without creating up a bunch of different presets for each 
different machine of the kit.

My scheme would only need 10 controllers to get the same control over the 
parameter knobs (1 for sound selection, 1 for synthesis/LFO/routing, 8 for 
the parameter knobs) and it would only take up one MIDI channel.  If this 
was also implemented in conjunction with the suggested custom knob 'page' 
that would allow a user defined group of knob parameters, then you could get 
away with using the eight parameter knob controllers for these custom 
controls also.  In addition Elektron could provide a MIDI LOCAL ON/OFF 
function to ensure that the control is always on the right page (pressing 
buttons on the MD while using the MIDI control could cause things to get 
messed up because the controllers would be changing the wrong parameters)

cheers
ripe


>From: kevin montuori <montuori@...>
>Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 10:36:52 -0400
>
> >>>>> mrhardacid  writes:
>
>   m> I don't know why they didn't just program it to use
>   m> non-registered parameters... that would simplify everything, and
>   m> as far as I know every modern sequencer supports them...
>
>      yes, but nrpn is not as trivially (or even at all) possible if
>      you're using a hardware controller.  i'd imagine that many people
>      who enjoy the hands-on aspect of the MD might also shy away from
>      "heavy" computer sequencer programming if they use a c.s. at all.
>
>      cheers,
>      k.
>
>--
>kevin montuori
>


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kevin,

You use/have a schaltwerk?  I am currently rewriting the schaltwerk 
operating system from the ground up, to implement things entirely 
differently and include sensible features (note length, etc)...

You can check out some of the early work I am doing on my schaltwerk page: 
http://www.socialentropy.com/schaltwerk

cheers
ripe


>From: kevin montuori <montuori@...>
>Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:15:23 -0400
>
> >>>>> mrhardacid  writes:
>
>   m> I own two hardware sequencers, and both support NRPN: MPC2000XL
>   m> and Emu E6400 Ultra... What sequencers don't support it?
>
>      i had the doepfer schaltwerk in mind.  i was also thinking that
>      if i were crazy enough to try, the MD could be controlled from
>      the Q or XTk panel, because the waldorfs send only CC.
>
>      just to clarify -- i don't have anything against nrpn
>      particularly, i was just offering a reason why elektron might
>      have shied away from them.
>
>      cheers,
>      k.
>
>
>--
>kevin montuori
>
>

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I'm planning to get a Schlatwerk soon... How well can it control 
the MD parameters, currently?


--- In elektron-users@y..., "r_i_ p_e" <ripe@s...> wrote:
> kevin,
> 
> You use/have a schaltwerk?  I am currently rewriting the schaltwerk 
> operating system from the ground up, to implement things entirely 
> differently and include sensible features (note length, etc)...
> 
> You can check out some of the early work I am doing on my 
schaltwerk page: 
> http://www.socialentropy.com/schaltwerk
> 
> cheers
> ripe
> 
> 
> >From: kevin montuori <montuori@a...>
> >Reply-To: elektron-users@y...
> >To: elektron-users@y...
> >Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
> >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:15:23 -0400
> >
> > >>>>> mrhardacid  writes:
> >
> >   m> I own two hardware sequencers, and both support NRPN: 
MPC2000XL
> >   m> and Emu E6400 Ultra... What sequencers don't support it?
> >
> >      i had the doepfer schaltwerk in mind.  i was also thinking 
that
> >      if i were crazy enough to try, the MD could be controlled 
from
> >      the Q or XTk panel, because the waldorfs send only CC.
> >
> >      just to clarify -- i don't have anything against nrpn
> >      particularly, i was just offering a reason why elektron might
> >      have shied away from them.
> >
> >      cheers,
> >      k.
> >
> >
> >--
> >kevin montuori
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

It could send stepped parameter values OK, similar to parameter locks.

Although it is strange that the individual step values are positive offset 
only from a track-wide value, so it becomes a bit of a hassle to get lower 
values... you have to move the master value lower, then all your step 
offsets are wrong and you have to reprogram them.

I will take care of this when (if?) I get my cutom OS finished.

cheers
ripe


>From: "mrhardacid" <mrhardacid@...>
>Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
>Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:00:04 -0000
>
>
>   I'm planning to get a Schlatwerk soon... How well can it control
>the MD parameters, currently?
>
>
>--- In elektron-users@y..., "r_i_ p_e" <ripe@s...> wrote:
> > kevin,
> >
> > You use/have a schaltwerk?  I am currently rewriting the schaltwerk
> > operating system from the ground up, to implement things entirely
> > differently and include sensible features (note length, etc)...
> >
> > You can check out some of the early work I am doing on my
>schaltwerk page:
> > http://www.socialentropy.com/schaltwerk
> >
> > cheers
> > ripe
> >
> >
> > >From: kevin montuori <montuori@a...>
> > >Reply-To: elektron-users@y...
> > >To: elektron-users@y...
> > >Subject: [elektron] Re: recording MD to a sequencer.
> > >Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 11:15:23 -0400
> > >
> > > >>>>> mrhardacid  writes:
> > >
> > >   m> I own two hardware sequencers, and both support NRPN:
>MPC2000XL
> > >   m> and Emu E6400 Ultra... What sequencers don't support it?
> > >
> > >      i had the doepfer schaltwerk in mind.  i was also thinking
>that
> > >      if i were crazy enough to try, the MD could be controlled
>from
> > >      the Q or XTk panel, because the waldorfs send only CC.
> > >
> > >      just to clarify -- i don't have anything against nrpn
> > >      particularly, i was just offering a reason why elektron might
> > >      have shied away from them.
> > >
> > >      cheers,
> > >      k.
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >kevin montuori
> > >
> > >


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>>>>> r i p e writes:

  >> I'm planning to get a Schlatwerk soon... How well can it control
  >> the MD parameters, currently?

  ripe> It could send stepped parameter values OK, similar to
  ripe> parameter locks.  

        exactly.  for most cases parameter locks are far easier to
        use.  what the schaltwerk gives you is the ability to change
        the CC values at a different rate than what the PLs will (also
        pendulum mode, &c.).  i've not used the s. with the MD yet, so
        i'm not convinced that this is entirely useful.  

        cheers,
        k.

-- 
kevin montuori