Elektron Musical Instruments

On 18 Jan 2004 08:27:46 -0000, elektron-users@yahoogroups.com wrote:


>I've had my eye on this one, although 8 monophonic
>tracks seems like less than I would ultimately need... 

Then you probably do not need a step sequencer. The P3 and the Zeit
are step sequencers and it is the interaction with the individual
steps that make them into performance instruments. The term sequencer
has been, to a large extent, hijacked by MIDI Recording and Editing
Hardware/Software.
Modern Step Sequencers such as those I've mentioned are few and far
between, largely attempting to recreate the type of sequencing offered
by the Moog 960, Arp Sequencer, Korg SQ10 and so on. Modern step
sequencers include the amazing (4-track) Notron, Polymorph, Doepfer
MAQ and so on. If you are asking for lots of tracks, don't care about
interaction with individual notes, sequence lengths, direction etc.
and want polyphony, then you most likely want something equivalent to
the Roland MC series, Akai MPC or Yamaha QY. For me, these are not
"sequencers" at all but then I'm old... 8-)

Once upon a time, everyone agreed what the word sequencer meant. Even
when Roland introduced its digital microcomposers - the MC4 and so on
- it was still a recognisable musical controller in its own right.
Thesedays a "sequencer" can be the entire gig <g>!

Paul

Paul Nagle <paul@...> wrote: 
---------------------------------
Then you probably do not need a step sequencer. 
<snip>
---------------------------------

actually, what I meant is a) that I would need more
than 8 tracks and b) I would like to be able to
trigger more than one note at a time on some of those
tracks.

it would also be nice if each track had the potential
to be routed to it's own MIDI out, so that I can
control several pieces of other gear without the need
to daisy-chain (and thus introducing latency in the
note triggering)...

I generally prefer to work within the step-sequencing
paradigm - it's just that I need slightly more from a
step-sequencing environment than what the P3, or
Machinedrum, or other machines currently on the market
seem to offer.

I'm not looking for a "groovebox" - just a slightly
more capable step-sequencer. what the Machinedrum does
with it's MIDI machines is *almost* enough for me - if
it allowed the "chord" (i.e. 2nd and 3rd) notes on the
MIDI tracks to each have different sustain lengths
(via parameter locks), had triplet capability, had
more tracks and had multiple (i.e. at least 8) MIDI
outs; then there wouldn't be a whole lot more I could
ask for in terms of sequencing.  




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--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nagle <paul@s...> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2004 08:27:46 -0000, elektron-users@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> 
> >I've had my eye on this one, although 8 monophonic
> >tracks seems like less than I would ultimately need... 
> 
> Then you probably do not need a step sequencer. The P3 and the Zeit
> are step sequencers and it is the interaction with the individual
> steps that make them into performance instruments. The term sequencer
> has been, to a large extent, hijacked by MIDI Recording and Editing
> Hardware/Software.
> Modern Step Sequencers such as those I've mentioned are few and far
> between, largely attempting to recreate the type of sequencing offered
> by the Moog 960, Arp Sequencer, Korg SQ10 and so on. Modern step
> sequencers include the amazing (4-track) Notron, Polymorph, Doepfer
> MAQ and so on. If you are asking for lots of tracks, don't care about
> interaction with individual notes, sequence lengths, direction etc.
> and want polyphony, then you most likely want something equivalent to
> the Roland MC series, Akai MPC or Yamaha QY. For me, these are not
> "sequencers" at all but then I'm old... 8-)
> 
> Once upon a time, everyone agreed what the word sequencer meant. Even
> when Roland introduced its digital microcomposers - the MC4 and so on
> - it was still a recognisable musical controller in its own right.
> Thesedays a "sequencer" can be the entire gig <g>!
> 
> Paul

totally agree!
For me, i love stepsequencers (ordered P3 last week) and already got
Schaltwerk, MAQ and FR777. Also got these Elektron Tools, as well
owning a QY700 and a MC2000xl, but make use of them a lot (the last
two!!!). Stepsequencing and Midirecording are for me two total
diffrent things, with midi i tired a the whole bench of Computer
stuff, but never become so happy like i get with Stepsequencers.
True, maybe it is the age...
Stefan

On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 09:18:11AM +0000, Paul Nagle wrote:
>    If you are asking for lots of tracks, don't care about
>    interaction with individual notes, sequence lengths, direction etc.
>    and want polyphony, then you most likely want something equivalent to
>    the Roland MC series, Akai MPC or Yamaha QY. For me, these are not
>    "sequencers" at all but then I'm old... 8-)

actually, the company in question allows all of the things that you
mention - with the exception of polyphony - within their interface.
THAT's why people are asking for them to develop the dream sequencer.
they've found a wonderful way to combine aspects of free-form sequencing
(i.e. like that of the machines you mention above) and analog-style
step-sequencing (where individual note editing is simple to do). their
latest sequencing effort (within the Monomachine) is quite incredible
and powerful. but indeed if it were focused on and expanded a bit, it would
be a dream sequencer.

Joe.

Surely the core request has been simple enough? A dedicated _sequencer_ in the 
model of the MnM sequencer section, but improved through track count and editing 
facilities, which could serve as the brain-centre of a setup. The Roland MC offer an 
entirely different experience; the MPC and QY have something but not what we are 
seeking. We want a dedicated sequencer that can purely be used to sequence midi 
information - drawing upon the best aspects of traditional, analogue step-sequencers 
and ALSO later developments, especially those already shown by Elektron.

This is taking a lot of explaining....

> and want polyphony, then you most likely want something equivalent to
> the Roland MC series, Akai MPC or Yamaha QY. For me, these are not
> "sequencers" at all but then I'm old... 8-)
> 
> Once upon a time, everyone agreed what the word sequencer meant. Even
> when Roland introduced its digital microcomposers - the MC4 and so on
> - it was still a recognisable musical controller in its own right.
> Thesedays a "sequencer" can be the entire gig <g>!
> 
> Paul

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joe <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> actually, the company in question allows all of the things that you
> mention - with the exception of polyphony - within their interface.
> THAT's why people are asking for them to develop the dream 
sequencer.

That's why I would like elektron to deal with the "exception of 
polyphony" in the monomachine.  6 polyphonic midi tracks and 6 
fantastic elektron mono-tracks would be a powerhouse that would 
entertain me for the 2+ years it would take to develop a dream 
sequencer.

Here's how they could handle MnM midi polyphony:  
They already let you scroll through notes recorded in a chord, so if 
they tie an individual note length parameter (in fractional form, 
_please_) to each note in a chord, that's about it.  If you have two 
notes start on the same step, you can scroll through them.  If you 
have notes layered on top of eachother, you can edit each of them on 
their corresponding starting step.  This wouldn't require a graphical 
representation - it would work very well with the existing LED's.  
You could even use the tri-color LED's to show how many notes 
underlie each note - 0=red, 1=yellow, 2+=green.

-gerald

On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 04:54:51PM -0000, oldmanfury wrote:
>    That's why I would like elektron to deal with the "exception of
>    polyphony" in the monomachine.  6 polyphonic midi tracks and 6
>    fantastic elektron mono-tracks would be a powerhouse that would
>    entertain me for the 2+ years it would take to develop a dream
>    sequencer.

I agree that this would be a HUGE leap forward for the MnM's
already incredible sequencer.

>    Here's how they could handle MnM midi polyphony:
>    They already let you scroll through notes recorded in a chord, so if
>    they tie an individual note length parameter (in fractional form,
>    _please_) to each note in a chord, that's about it.  If you have two
>    notes start on the same step, you can scroll through them.  If you
>    have notes layered on top of eachother, you can edit each of them on
>    their corresponding starting step.  This wouldn't require a graphical
>    representation - it would work very well with the existing LED's.
>    You could even use the tri-color LED's to show how many notes
>    underlie each note - 0=red, 1=yellow, 2+=green.

there's one other important feature (to me) which you describe a bit
above and I'll clarify: trigging notes while other notes are still
being held. that is, if you trig a note (or a chord) on step one and
then program it (as you describe above) to last eight beats, it would
be nice to be able to make more trigs during those eight beats which
do not generate note-off messages (as they do now). right now, it's
an either/or relationship for note lengths: they last until either
the programmed note length is up OR until you trig another note. to
me, it should only be the former condition and not the latter at all.

but one concern if such a capabiloity is added is telling where your
notes end, right? to this end, the LED's could be used to indicate
whether a note has a note-on message only (red), a note-off message
only (yellow), both note-off and note-on (green) or neither (i.e. a
parameter tweak step) (flashing yellow).

Joe.

--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Joe <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:

> but one concern if such a capabiloity is added is telling where your
> notes end, right? to this end, the LED's could be used to indicate
> whether a note has a note-on message only (red), a note-off message
> only (yellow), both note-off and note-on (green) or neither (i.e. a
> parameter tweak step) (flashing yellow).
> 
I would prefer to leave out note off marks all together in poly-midi 
mode.  They complicate things uncecessarily, and if they lie under 
note-on's things get really ugly.  To tell how long notes are, press 
play and listen.  Then, click on the note-on that you're worried 
about, and look at its length value.  Pretty simple, and easy to work 
with.

-gerald

this is an interesting discussion, And Im intrigued at the prospect 
of an Elektron made sequencer. but realize that the Monomachine 
hasnt "officially" dropped as of yet, to my knowledge at least. all 
of us who have one right now where smart and lucky enough to have 
purchased beta units. And when it does drop this forum will be 
flooded with quesions we've been fielding for months now. NO one else 
has one yet. Remember we are dealing with a small company, nothing 
like a roland or a yamaha. Things take time to release and the 
elektron dudes will probably be hard at work pushing the MnM, making 
a name for itself and whatnot, which is what they are doing at NAMM 
right now as we speak. ALthough they will probably see this thread, 
dont expect them to do anything right away. IF they do actually 
decide to make a stand alone sequencer, it would be a ways off, you 
can't rush quality, you know what i mean? but im confident that it 
would be real fresh, because they would listen to all of us and our 
input and take it into consideration. Something you wont get with 
roland or yamaha. When i got my 1st instrument from these guys, which 
was a sidstation, i emailed them about what was coming down the 
pipeline, daniel told me the monomachine was the pipeline. You cant 
rush these things. im more concerned about an official monomachine 
carrying case that'll accommidate that fragile joystick. (to make it 
a truly "performance oriented" synth) this is a more pressing, and 
current issue in my opinion.
peace out,
zebra

Speaking of MonoMachine coverage from NAMM... Was there any?  
Nothing I read about NAMM mentioned the MnM at all.  Kind of 
disappointing.  Anyone have links?


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, "zebraoner" <zebraoner@y...> 
wrote:
> this is an interesting discussion, And Im intrigued at the 
prospect 
> of an Elektron made sequencer. but realize that the Monomachine 
> hasnt "officially" dropped as of yet, to my knowledge at least. 
all 
> of us who have one right now where smart and lucky enough to have 
> purchased beta units. And when it does drop this forum will be 
> flooded with quesions we've been fielding for months now. NO one 
else 
> has one yet. Remember we are dealing with a small company, nothing 
> like a roland or a yamaha. Things take time to release and the 
> elektron dudes will probably be hard at work pushing the MnM, 
making 
> a name for itself and whatnot, which is what they are doing at 
NAMM 
> right now as we speak. ALthough they will probably see this 
thread, 
> dont expect them to do anything right away. IF they do actually 
> decide to make a stand alone sequencer, it would be a ways off, 
you 
> can't rush quality, you know what i mean? but im confident that it 
> would be real fresh, because they would listen to all of us and 
our 
> input and take it into consideration. Something you wont get with 
> roland or yamaha. When i got my 1st instrument from these guys, 
which 
> was a sidstation, i emailed them about what was coming down the 
> pipeline, daniel told me the monomachine was the pipeline. You 
cant 
> rush these things. im more concerned about an official monomachine 
> carrying case that'll accommidate that fragile joystick. (to make 
it 

> a truly "performance oriented" synth) this is a more pressing, and 
> current issue in my opinion.
> peace out,
> zebra

---------------------------------
Paul Nagle <paul@...> wrote: 
---------------------------------
Then you probably do not need a step sequencer. 
<snip>
---------------------------------

then I wrote:
---------------------------------
actually, what I meant is a) that I would need more
than 8 tracks and b) I would like to be able to
trigger more than one note at a time on some of those
tracks.

it would also be nice if each track had the potential
to be routed to it's own MIDI out, so that I can
control several pieces of other gear without the need
to daisy-chain (and thus introducing latency in the
note triggering)...

I generally prefer to work within the step-sequencing
paradigm - it's just that I need slightly more from a
step-sequencing environment than what the P3, or
Machinedrum, or other machines currently on the market
seem to offer.

I'm not looking for a "groovebox" - just a slightly
more capable step-sequencer. what the Machinedrum does
with it's MIDI machines is *almost* enough for me - if
it allowed the "chord" (i.e. 2nd and 3rd) notes on the
MIDI tracks to each have different sustain lengths
(via parameter locks), had triplet capability, had
more tracks and had multiple (i.e. at least 8) MIDI
outs; then there wouldn't be a whole lot more I could
ask for in terms of sequencing.  
---------------------------------

to the above-mentioned features, I should just add the
following: different step lengths for each track would
be a big plus as well!

cheers,
kevin

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--- In elektron-kevin wrote:
 
> it would also be nice if each track had the potential
> to be routed to it's own MIDI out, so that I can
> control several pieces of other gear without the need
> to daisy-chain (and thus introducing latency in the
> note triggering)...

A $50 used midi-router will buy you 8 ins and 8 outs, and will 
prevent spaghetti from accumulating behind your sequencer and keep it 
in your rack, where it belongs.

-gerald

on 1/18/04 2:23 PM, oldmanfury wrote:

> --- In elektron-kevin wrote:
> 
>> it would also be nice if each track had the potential
>> to be routed to it's own MIDI out, so that I can
>> control several pieces of other gear without the need
>> to daisy-chain (and thus introducing latency in the
>> note triggering)...
> 
> A $50 used midi-router will buy you 8 ins and 8 outs, and will
> prevent spaghetti from accumulating behind your sequencer and keep it
> in your rack, where it belongs.

not even close to being the same.

with a router, all the data is still coming from *one*
port on the source device...by having dedicated outs,
the MIDI load is truly distributed, and with the
benefit of more accurate timing.


cheers,
aeon

oldmanfury <erinys@...> wrote: 
---------------------------------
A $50 used midi-router will buy you 8 ins and 8 outs,
and will 
prevent spaghetti from accumulating behind your
sequencer and keep it 
in your rack, where it belongs.
---------------------------------

I suppose that would be the best way to go... it
doesn't even *really* need the 8-ins, unless the
sequencer is going to either a) record incoming MIDI
or b) be able to act as a sys-ex back-up device as
well... 

it would still be nice though, if Elektron do actually
build this sequencer at some point, that they also
make the rackmount MIDI-router to go with it - just so
it's an all-in-one package and doesn't necessitate
buying something else from another manufacturer to get
the most out of their product ;-)

and also because the MIDI router I *currently* own is 
already in use, routing the output of my MIDI-knob box
to my FX units ;-)



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On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 06:02:29PM -0000, oldmanfury wrote:
>    I would prefer to leave out note off marks all together in poly-midi
>    mode.  They complicate things uncecessarily, and if they lie under
>    note-on's things get really ugly.  To tell how long notes are, press
>    play and listen.  Then, click on the note-on that you're worried
>    about, and look at its length value.  Pretty simple, and easy to work
>    with.

agreed.  this goes hand-in-hand with my previous post; i.e. that the
length parameter should be adhered to and neither note-off messages
nor note-on messages should change that.

hopefully Daniel will chime in here (when he gets back from NAMM, I
presume) and comment on this thread.

Joe.

On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 07:03:04PM -0000, zebraoner wrote:
>    im more concerned about an official monomachine
>    carrying case that'll accommidate that fragile joystick. (to make it
>    a truly "performance oriented" synth) this is a more pressing, and
>    current issue in my opinion.

has there been mention of such an official case?

Joe.

On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 07:10:53PM -0000, Mind Mechanic wrote:
>    Speaking of MonoMachine coverage from NAMM... Was there any?
>    Nothing I read about NAMM mentioned the MnM at all.  Kind of
>    disappointing.  Anyone have links?

they don't have a booth. a few of them went over with the MnM and MD and
booked a hotel room right next to the convention center.  they are doing
private demos there for interested dealers.

Joe.

Well its for sale on the site now, they show units in stock.

On 1/18/04 2:03 PM, "zebraoner" <zebraoner@...> wrote:

> but realize that the Monomachine
> hasnt "officially" dropped as of yet, to my knowledge at least. all
> of us who have one right now where smart and lucky enough to have
> purchased beta units. And when it does drop this forum will be
> flooded with quesions we've been fielding for months now. NO one else
> has one yet.

I would absolutely love if a place in the US picks up some monos. It would
be great to walk over to guitar center and actually play one before I make
the investment. I think elektron would more that double their sales if the
md and mono were available in stores.

On 1/18/04 5:42 PM, "Joe" <jmelnyk@...> wrote:
> they don't have a booth. a few of them went over with the MnM and MD and
> booked a hotel room right next to the convention center.  they are doing
> private demos there for interested dealers.
> 
> Joe.

if you want to try out the monomachine or machinedrum in new york city you
can try them at my studio.  i am the elektron partner for this area.

i am tentatively scheduled to play the The Front Room in Williamsberg,
Brooklyn this friday night and plan to bring the mono.  details can be found
at my site later this week:  http://eyekhan.com/

are there no ideas for cases for the mono besides the 61 key versions that
are just way too big?  if someone had a lead on a custom builder perhaps we
could get them to give us all a deal.

john 

From: Andy Tarpinian <evildead@...>
Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:13:20 -0500
To: <elektron-users@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ummmmm....Re: [elektron]  stand alone sequencer


I would absolutely love if a place in the US picks up some monos. It would
be great to walk over to guitar center and actually play one before I make
the investment. I think elektron would more that double their sales if the
md and mono were available in stores.

On 1/18/04 5:42 PM, "Joe" <jmelnyk@...> wrote:
> they don't have a booth. a few of them went over with the MnM and MD and
> booked a hotel room right next to the convention center.  they are doing
> private demos there for interested dealers.
> 
> Joe.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 06:28:42PM -0500, john parker wrote:
>    are  there no ideas for cases for the mono besides the 61 key versions
>    that
>    are  just  way  too  big?   if  someone had a lead on a custom builder
>    perhaps we
>    could get them to give us all a deal.

as far as custom, I've talked with Calzone cases and was quoted $250 for
an ATA-rated case, 2" of foam lining on the top (1-1/2 elsewhere), 3
recessed steel handles and 2 recessed steel latches.  The extra foam on top
is to enable a joystick cutout.

that's a decent price for a custom ATA-style case, from what I've seen.
but it is a fair bit to spend on a case. perhaps its possible to get
a bulk-order discount.  I can ask the representative about this if there's
a fair bit of people interested

Joe.

well ill be. just shows how much i know.


--- In elektron-users@yahoogroups.com, Andy Tarpinian <evildead@n...> 
wrote:
> Well its for sale on the site now, they show units in stock.
> 
> On 1/18/04 2:03 PM, "zebraoner" <zebraoner@y...> wrote:
> 
> > but realize that the Monomachine
> > hasnt "officially" dropped as of yet, to my knowledge at least. 
all
> > of us who have one right now where smart and lucky enough to have
> > purchased beta units. And when it does drop this forum will be
> > flooded with quesions we've been fielding for months now. NO one 
else
> > has one yet.

i guess $250 is ok when you consider the price of damaging the mnm.  i'm in
and if you need someone to contact the company just forward me the info.

john

From: Joe <jmelnyk@...>
Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:33:50 -0500
To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: ummmmm....Re: [elektron]  stand alone sequencer


On Sun, Jan 18, 2004 at 06:28:42PM -0500, john parker wrote:
>    are  there no ideas for cases for the mono besides the 61 key versions
>    that
>    are  just  way  too  big?   if  someone had a lead on a custom builder
>    perhaps we
>    could get them to give us all a deal.

as far as custom, I've talked with Calzone cases and was quoted $250 for
an ATA-rated case, 2" of foam lining on the top (1-1/2 elsewhere), 3
recessed steel handles and 2 recessed steel latches.  The extra foam on top
is to enable a joystick cutout.

that's a decent price for a custom ATA-style case, from what I've seen.
but it is a fair bit to spend on a case. perhaps its possible to get
a bulk-order discount.  I can ask the representative about this if there's
a fair bit of people interested

Joe.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, being the person who wrote the original SOS article on the Notron, I'm 
assuming you've probably kept an interest in it? Do you know where I could 
get one, or what its creators are up to now? I understand they had bit of a 
falling out a while ago, but beyond this I don't know much!

-Cheers, Big Ed


>From: Paul Nagle <paul@...>
>Reply-To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: elektron-users@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [elektron] Digest Number 1108
>Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:18:11 +0000
>
>On 18 Jan 2004 08:27:46 -0000, elektron-users@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> >I've had my eye on this one, although 8 monophonic
> >tracks seems like less than I would ultimately need...
>
>Then you probably do not need a step sequencer. The P3 and the Zeit
>are step sequencers and it is the interaction with the individual
>steps that make them into performance instruments. The term sequencer
>has been, to a large extent, hijacked by MIDI Recording and Editing
>Hardware/Software.
>Modern Step Sequencers such as those I've mentioned are few and far
>between, largely attempting to recreate the type of sequencing offered
>by the Moog 960, Arp Sequencer, Korg SQ10 and so on. Modern step
>sequencers include the amazing (4-track) Notron, Polymorph, Doepfer
>MAQ and so on. If you are asking for lots of tracks, don't care about
>interaction with individual notes, sequence lengths, direction etc.
>and want polyphony, then you most likely want something equivalent to
>the Roland MC series, Akai MPC or Yamaha QY. For me, these are not
>"sequencers" at all but then I'm old... 8-)
>
>Once upon a time, everyone agreed what the word sequencer meant. Even
>when Roland introduced its digital microcomposers - the MC4 and so on
>- it was still a recognisable musical controller in its own right.
>Thesedays a "sequencer" can be the entire gig <g>!
>
>Paul

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> I would absolutely love if a place in the US picks up some monos. 
> It would be great to walk over to guitar center and actually play 
> one before I make the investment. I think elektron would more that 
> double their sales if the md and mono were available in stores.

  I can't help w/ the Mono but anyone who needs to demo the 
MachineDrum in New England should drop me a line...

On the Peninsula, just south of SFO and north of San Jose if anyone wants 
to try either the MD or MnM.

At 05:52 PM 01/19/2004, Mind Mechanic wrote:

> > I would absolutely love if a place in the US picks up some monos.
> > It would be great to walk over to guitar center and actually play
> > one before I make the investment. I think elektron would more that
> > double their sales if the md and mono were available in stores.
>
>   I can't help w/ the Mono but anyone who needs to demo the
>MachineDrum in New England should drop me a line...

Looks interesting, I'll see if I can make it on Friday.

-andy

> From: john parker <jenghizkhan@...>
> 
> if you want to try out the monomachine or machinedrum in new york city you
> can try them at my studio.  i am the elektron partner for this area.
> 
> i am tentatively scheduled to play the The Front Room in Williamsberg,
> Brooklyn this friday night and plan to bring the mono.  details can be found
> at my site later this week:  http://eyekhan.com/