Elektron Musical Instruments

Hi,

While I've been doing some songs with MD and bunch of other stuff, 
I've noticed how hard it is to get kick right (haven't managed yet). 
So I think everyone would benefit if we share our kick strategies. 
Here is something that I've tried:

I usually do my kicks with TRX-BD. I've compared it to 808-kick and 
it can be pretty damn close. I'm not a fan of TRX-BD2, because I feel 
it does too much pitch-envelope and you can't set it (actually you 
can set Ramp or Ramp-decay, but only the other one of them).

I feel I can't get the body of the kick enough. Alone kick sounds ok, 
but in the mix the body disappears. Very easy to find out if you 
compare your mix to prodigy for example. They have this good sounding 
attack (which I think is doable somehow) but the 'oommphh' is so good 
there and I can't make same with MD.

Here are some strategies I've tried to get 'oommphh' right:

1. The limiter. 
With limiter (like Waves L1) you can get the 'oomphh' and seriously 
raise volume, without gaining dBs. You have to record kick separate 
from others (which is no problem). The problem in this strategie is 
that the kick will start sounding a lot different than what you 
designed in first place. So it get harder to get kick sound the way 
you like it, allthought you get some 'oommpphh' there. Another 
problem is that the more you limit the kick the more you lose the 
attack of it.

2. Second choice: the Compressor. You can use the compressor like 
limiter (high ratio) and you can set the attack so that it takes a 
little time to compressor react. This way you can get attack  portion 
of the kick higher and then comes the 'ooommmpphh'. I guess this is 
pretty ok solution, but I haven't succeed this way yet. I've also 
found that if you follow compressor with eq, you can mold 
the 'oommpphh' a bit (for example boost at 120 hz to get it more 
recognisable). 

These are my strategies, but with both of them the problem is that 
the kick will eventually sound pretty different than what you exepted 
first when creating it. So it becomes a problem when I think I 
want 'this kind of kick' and don't have any clue how it will sound 
after I've messed with the ooommmpphh and attack.

The more I think of it the more it seams like there is two schools to 
get kick right. Lets say an old school and a new school (don't get 
stuck here, we could name them anything like orange and apple). 
In 'new school' people use samples, which are from other artists 
(nothing wrong here, if you don't copy the whole sounddesign, I 
guess). The artists usually have their kick done right. So you get 
good kick (that hopefully sits in your mix too), which is processed-
ready. People also layer these and so on. I think its easier this 
way, allthought you don't get ultra-clean kicks this way (which might 
be your intention). The old school is about making the kick from 
start to end and starts from 808, 909 (or MD) type sounds. I believe 
it's pretty much harder to do this way, allthought I find it 
interesting and usefull (if I get kicks right this way I sure expect 
to get them right even if I use samples). 

Oh well, just my thinking... (long post)

I (and everyone else I guess) would love to here how people have 
managed to get their kick right? Please tell us your story.

Toni

Hi! 

Haven't thought too much about it, I like the kicks and revel in the
options available other than layering the 808 and 909 kicks, maybe a
tom or two and some other drums to make it even more punchy. Which is
what I've been doing up to now on the old school gear. Guess you can
transfer that ideology to the machinedrum - use several machines to
shape the sound you want. Typically you'll get the attack and upper
bass punch just right in one machine, but loose out in the oomph
department in the process. Dig out another machine and make that bass
boom while the first pounds the attack. Something like that.. :)


Andreas

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On Sat, Feb 28, 2004 at 11:42:27AM -0000, tahvenaine2002 wrote:
>    I (and everyone else I guess) would love to here how people have
>    managed to get their kick right? Please tell us your story.

I don't really have a problem getting good drum sounds out of the MD. I
usually start with one thing when its drums only and then morph it to
fit the track once some synth parts are added. that's the luxury you
have with electronics (versus real drum recording that is) so I
exploit it as much as possible, having been upset about how my own
drums have dissappeared in the mix when all is said and done.

anyway, that's my only suggestion - use your initial drum sounds to help
shape the tone of the song and then tailor them to the general mix later.
and don't just use the TRX bass drum; try *everything* (even toms!).
the EFM BD is great, for example :-)

Joe

> anyway, that's my only suggestion - use your initial drum sounds to 
help
> shape the tone of the song and then tailor them to the general mix 
later.
> and don't just use the TRX bass drum; try *everything* (even toms!).
> the EFM BD is great, for example :-)

I've been doing one song for now, in which I tried what I call 
the 'prodigy-style technique'. I took recorded patterns from MD to 
computer, processed them so that they sound something like vinyl or 
just generally mess them up. I put them to sampler which I trigger 
from MD. Then I made a new kit, with TRX-snare and EFM-kick and 
sequeneced the crisp and clean beats on top of messed up patterns. I 
have to admit this sounds soo good!! I get a lot of dynamics (very 
nice accent) this way and kicks body is there also better. And the 
TRX-snare sounds better than ever before. 

This experiment led me thinking that maybe my problem is just that I 
really don't know how to make good balance between different sounds. 
I almoust always use every single 16 machines on my patterns and 
tempo is somewhere 160, so it's pretty hard to make kick and snare 
sit there. My balancing is that I just try to get everything heard... 
(I guess this is wrong technique..?).

(There is also a lot more in kick than just a kick. You can get kick 
right as single element but overall punch isn't top notch if you dont 
have your bassline to extend the kick.)

So I guess I'm heading towards layering different kind of kicks and 
stuff.. I would really like to hear how people do their layering. How 
to make upper and lower kick fit to themselves? Which one do you do 
first? I guess the attack is easier, but making good body is harder. 
With good body I don't just mean something thumbing on sub-range. I 
guess they (attack and body) have to sound like they come from one 
single kick. How do you people do it?

From what I experienced I'm imaging that maybe good way would be 
something like this: I make beat with my normal style and just try to 
get attack and upper body right with the kick. Then I make new kick 
and snare and sequence them on top of that a lot more louder. This 
way I could get the dynamics right too (so that it just doesnt sound 
like even volume all the time, refresh your thinking of dynamics with 
Prodigys 'diesel power' example).

Long and messy post again ;)
Toni.

ps. I've been mentioning prodigy a lot, I'm not really trying to do 
prodigy style stuff (I guess my stuff is more IDM), but I think the 
prodigy did their kick pretty damn good on the 'fat of the land' 
album and if you want to compare your stuff to something (to 
understand what needs to be polished), prodigy is very good reference 
point (and very disapointing, because you can not get it sound so 
good).

> Which is
> what I've been doing up to now on the old school gear. Typically 
you'll get the attack and upper
> bass punch just right in one machine, but loose out in the oomph
> department in the process. Dig out another machine and make that 
bass
> boom while the first pounds the attack. 

I would love the hear some more precise examples how do you do it? 
Please, share us some 'kick story'. I would be supa-cool to hear your 
kick work and then you explaining how did you do it.

Toni.

ps. Ok, now you must be thinking that your kicks maybe arent good 
enough to be publised as an example. I guess there are lots of 
hobbiers here how would love discuss (did I spell it wrong?) about 
kicks, so do it.