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NATIVE MYTHS

NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-26 by Kaveh Cohen

Technodork, I'm afraid to inform you that you will NOT be seeing native systems running at the efficiency of dedicated DSP hardware
systems like Pro Tools.  I own a G4 running Logic Platinum with lots of RAM, big drives etc. etc. and I work with Pro Tools on a regular
basis.  There are several key elements you left out of your discussion.  First of all, the type of plug-in determines how many you can
open.  Logic's own plug-ins run native 32bit under Logic's audio engine which is G4 native.  As a result you have a high plug-in count.
The minute you start using CPU intensive plug-ins that are non native such as the Waves plug-ins, that plug-in count drops hugely.  In
reality the native Logic plug-ins, although I love them, do not compete with the Gold bundle's sound quality in any respect.  As far as
the track count is concerned, you may be seeing 80 tracks of audio, but as soon as you start making edits and cuts in those tracks, the
strain on the hard drive will increase dramatically and your track count will decrease.  Sure if you have 80 linear tracks of audio with
no edits or cuts or crossfades or any other edit of any sort, they'll play back.  Start cutting and your track count will drop.

The comparison between Pro Tools and native systems is beginning to get ridiculous.  Pro Tools allows 64 tracks of audio playing back with
hundreds of edits and cuts and fades without so much as a hiccup.  This is not the case of native systems.  Also, most importantly, the
TDM plug-ins are way better.  Way better.  For that very same reason, companies like Bomb Factory, Serrato, Focusrite, Lexicon and a
shopping list of others will NOT support VST.  In the professional arena, you cannot compare say Roomulator with the Lexiverb.  Or compare
Finalator with C4.  Now I'm gonna get a hundred replies saying that they do professional work and who am I to say you're not a
professional if you don't own Pro Tools, so let me qualify by saying that Pro Tools has merely set the professional standard.  That
standard is first and foremost, compatibility.  Almost all pros working in film and tv for example own a Pro Tools rig simply so they can
be one hundred percent compatible with one another.  This saves time since time costs money.  They simply take their drives and plug them
in, and since they all have the same plug-ins, the sessions immediately open and play back irregardless of how many plug-ins or tracks or
edits.  This is not the same process on a native system.  A Cubase user on his multiprocessor G4 with a gazillion megs of RAM and fourteen
500 gig firewire drives cannot simply get up and go to another studio with a different G4 or G3 setup running Logic or Digital Performer
and be up and running in a minute, or at all.

So to answer your remarks Technodork, this system may work well when you work alone or if you have non-stop linear audio, but the moment
things get a hair more complicated than that, native is not the answer.

Oh, and one more thing.  Before you get too excited about the new quad processor machines, remember dedicated DSP hardware systems like
Pro Tools are not standing still in time.  Digidesign WILL continue to push their DSP farm cards to newer levels effectively placing them
several levels above native, just as they are now.  Native has made progress, but their is still no comparison.  I, like you work with
native, and I am a working professional making my entire living with these goodies, and although happy with native's capability, can in
reality see why people pay large sums for their Pro Tools rigs.

My two cents...

Kaveh Cohen.

technodork_2000@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Sadie, Sonic, ProTools, all just tools of choice, use what works
> best for you. Although both Sadie and Sonic aren't real multitrack
> solutions, especially when it comes down to availability of plug
> ins, and cost per track. Sonic has always been rediculously
> overpriced for what it offered, Sadie was a much more affordable
> tool, used mainly only for broadcast and mastering suites, and
> Sonic soon to be relegated to nothing more than a DVD
> authoriing system. I used a Sadie for 3 years, and loved it, very
> intuitive interface, but they never kept up with Digidesign on
> number of tracks, and I/O and compatibility of plug ins.
>
> I completely disagree with your statement -
> " CPU = Costs savings.  Limited amount of resource for
> multi-track editing" thats a rediculous statement, or at least one
> from someone that doesn't own a current computer, I am
> running a Dual Processor 533mhz Mac with 1 gig of ram,
> running Logic Platinum, and I can get over 80 tracks of audio,
> with more plug-ins than you can count, I record them into Logic
> as SDII's, transfer them over to a VST Firewire drive, and hand
> them to my mix guy with Pro Tools Mix Plus, he plugs in the
> FireWire drive, drags the files into Pro Tools, and wa
> laaaaaah........, except he has to start muting tracks immediately
> because of the 64 voice limit on Pro Tools.
>
> All this to say, with Multi processor machines, and increasing
> chip speed and efficiency, and the soon to come Quad
> Processor Macs.............host based systems will be equally
> capable as their TDM counterparts, just wait for Logic 5.0.........

Re: NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by technodork_2000@yahoo.com

Keith, 

I do not disagree with you, I simply don't want people to think 
their systems not capable. Yes, I am running upwards of 80 
tracks, with thousands of edits, complicated vocal comps, drum 
edits, etc., using WAVES, Aboretum, Prosoniq, mda, GRM plug 
ins, alongside native, all off of a 5200rpm VST FireWire drive on 
occassion. Of course I have to bounce these edits down as one 
long audio file to pass it on to Pro Tools for mix.

You are right, we definately have limits, and it will be interesting 
to see  where the future and "Digi" takes us. I am all for using 
whatever tools we can to help the process. I am actually looking 
into running a TDM audio interface as well to take advantage of 
the TDM plugs in Logic, plus to be able to pass on my Plug In 
settings to the Pro Tools rig for mix.

If nothing else this has sparked interesting discussion.
Thanks for the input.....



--- In exs-users@y..., Kaveh Cohen <kavehc@p...> wrote:
> Technodork, I'm afraid to inform you that you will NOT be 
seeing native systems running at the efficiency of dedicated DSP 
hardware
> systems like Pro Tools.  I own a G4 running Logic Platinum 
with lots of RAM, big drives etc. etc. and I work with Pro Tools on 
a regular
> basis.  There are several key elements you left out of your 
discussion.  First of all, the type of plug-in determines how many 
you can
> open.  Logic's own plug-ins run native 32bit under Logic's 
audio engine which is G4 native.  As a result you have a high 
plug-in count.
> The minute you start using CPU intensive plug-ins that are non 
native such as the Waves plug-ins, that plug-in count drops 
hugely.  In
> reality the native Logic plug-ins, although I love them, do not 
compete with the Gold bundle's sound quality in any respect.  As 
far as
> the track count is concerned, you may be seeing 80 tracks of 
audio, but as soon as you start making edits and cuts in those 
tracks, the
> strain on the hard drive will increase dramatically and your 
track count will decrease.  Sure if you have 80 linear tracks of 
audio with
> no edits or cuts or crossfades or any other edit of any sort, 
they'll play back.  Start cutting and your track count will drop.
> 
> The comparison between Pro Tools and native systems is 
beginning to get ridiculous.  Pro Tools allows 64 tracks of audio 
playing back with
> hundreds of edits and cuts and fades without so much as a 
hiccup.  This is not the case of native systems.  Also, most 
importantly, the
> TDM plug-ins are way better.  Way better.  For that very same 
reason, companies like Bomb Factory, Serrato, Focusrite, 
Lexicon and a
> shopping list of others will NOT support VST.  In the 
professional arena, you cannot compare say Roomulator with 
the Lexiverb.  Or compare
> Finalator with C4.  Now I'm gonna get a hundred replies saying 
that they do professional work and who am I to say you're not a
> professional if you don't own Pro Tools, so let me qualify by 
saying that Pro Tools has merely set the professional standard.  
That
> standard is first and foremost, compatibility.  Almost all pros 
working in film and tv for example own a Pro Tools rig simply so 
they can
> be one hundred percent compatible with one another.  This 
saves time since time costs money.  They simply take their 
drives and plug them
> in, and since they all have the same plug-ins, the sessions 
immediately open and play back irregardless of how many 
plug-ins or tracks or
> edits.  This is not the same process on a native system.  A 
Cubase user on his multiprocessor G4 with a gazillion megs of 
RAM and fourteen
> 500 gig firewire drives cannot simply get up and go to another 
studio with a different G4 or G3 setup running Logic or Digital 
Performer
> and be up and running in a minute, or at all.
> 
> So to answer your remarks Technodork, this system may work 
well when you work alone or if you have non-stop linear audio, 
but the moment
> things get a hair more complicated than that, native is not the 
answer.
> 
> Oh, and one more thing.  Before you get too excited about the 
new quad processor machines, remember dedicated DSP 
hardware systems like
> Pro Tools are not standing still in time.  Digidesign WILL 
continue to push their DSP farm cards to newer levels effectively 
placing them
> several levels above native, just as they are now.  Native has 
made progress, but their is still no comparison.  I, like you work 
with
> native, and I am a working professional making my entire living 
with these goodies, and although happy with native's capability, 
can in
> reality see why people pay large sums for their Pro Tools rigs.
> 
> My two cents...
> 
> Kaveh Cohen.
> 
> technodork_2000@y... wrote:
> 
> > Sadie, Sonic, ProTools, all just tools of choice, use what 
works
> > best for you. Although both Sadie and Sonic aren't real 
multitrack
> > solutions, especially when it comes down to availability of 
plug
> > ins, and cost per track. Sonic has always been rediculously
> > overpriced for what it offered, Sadie was a much more 
affordable
> > tool, used mainly only for broadcast and mastering suites, 
and
> > Sonic soon to be relegated to nothing more than a DVD
> > authoriing system. I used a Sadie for 3 years, and loved it, 
very
> > intuitive interface, but they never kept up with Digidesign on
> > number of tracks, and I/O and compatibility of plug ins.
> >
> > I completely disagree with your statement -
> > " CPU = Costs savings.  Limited amount of resource for
> > multi-track editing" thats a rediculous statement, or at least 
one
> > from someone that doesn't own a current computer, I am
> > running a Dual Processor 533mhz Mac with 1 gig of ram,
> > running Logic Platinum, and I can get over 80 tracks of audio,
> > with more plug-ins than you can count, I record them into 
Logic
> > as SDII's, transfer them over to a VST Firewire drive, and 
hand
> > them to my mix guy with Pro Tools Mix Plus, he plugs in the
> > FireWire drive, drags the files into Pro Tools, and wa
> > laaaaaah........, except he has to start muting tracks 
immediately
> > because of the 64 voice limit on Pro Tools.
> >
> > All this to say, with Multi processor machines, and increasing
> > chip speed and efficiency, and the soon to come Quad
> > Processor Macs.............host based systems will be equally
> > capable as their TDM counterparts, just wait for Logic 
5.0.........

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by HELP@MusicProTools.com

Technodork,

Thanks for bringing the conversation back to earth and with respect for your
peers. You make some balanced points in these two recent e-mails. I think we
can all agree that there are strengths to both setups. Cheers, Jer


All users,

I've been curious, does anyone know if you can run TDM along side VST in the
same project? Seems like it would be possible based on what I'm seeing in
the audio driver/interface window. I know that when I first got an ASIO card
I could switch a track in the Mixer window to either MacAV or ASIO (as long
as they were both active in the driver window), but had problems (presumably
with the MacAV) with stability so I canned the idea. Still seems possible in
theory. I'm imagining something like the MOTU 828 with a TDM interface tied
to the Magma PCI expander, which would be connected to a PowerBook. Am I
nuts? Probably!

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by LogicBaby

You can slave protools clock to an Audiowerck SPDIF , the card has variable
clock timing meaning it can do just as well as a Digidesign USD, you should
be able to run native with protools this way, I think this will introduce
some latency though.......

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by philter@mac.com

from the Emagic website:

Logic Audio extension for TDM systems.

ESB TDM allows the integration of up to 32 EXS24 units in the Aux 
channels of the TDM mixer. EXS24 outputs can be processed entirely 
within the Logic Audio Platinum MacOS TDM environment, using the 
ProTools DSP. Playback timing is sample accurate. The output of 
Logic's audio engine, including native and VST plug-ins, can be fed 
into the TDM mixer. ESB TDM provides the user with an unprecedented 
amount of control over system resources by combining the best of both 
native and hardware DSP processing.

The ESB TDM expands on Digidesign's DirectConnect technology and 
further demonstrates Emagic's commitment to the TDM platform.
DirectConnect is a registered trademark of Avid Technoloy, Inc., or 
its subsidiaries or divisions.

This will create quite a few jealous PT users.

They claim shipping in May.  


--- In exs-users@y..., "HELP@M..." <HELP@M...> wrote:
> Technodork,
> 
> Thanks for bringing the conversation back to earth and with respect 
for your
> peers. You make some balanced points in these two recent e-mails. I 
think we
> can all agree that there are strengths to both setups. Cheers, Jer
> 
> 
> All users,
> 
> I've been curious, does anyone know if you can run TDM along side 
VST in the
> same project? Seems like it would be possible based on what I'm 
seeing in
> the audio driver/interface window. I know that when I first got an 
ASIO card
> I could switch a track in the Mixer window to either MacAV or ASIO 
(as long
> as they were both active in the driver window), but had problems 
(presumably
> with the MacAV) with stability so I canned the idea. Still seems 
possible in
> theory. I'm imagining something like the MOTU 828 with a TDM 
interface tied
> to the Magma PCI expander, which would be connected to a PowerBook. 
Am I
> nuts? Probably!

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by HELP@MusicProTools.com

??? What does this have to do with driving two I/Os? I'm asking whether or
not you can, for example, run TDM hardware at the same time as VST/ASIO
within the same project...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: LogicBaby <basharar@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:12:03 +0400
> To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS
> 
> You can slave protools clock to an Audiowerck SPDIF , the card has variable
> clock timing meaning it can do just as well as a Digidesign USD, you should
> be able to run native with protools this way, I think this will introduce
> some latency though.......
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by HELP@MusicProTools.com

Thanks, bro! This is exactly what I was curious about. It sounds amazing!!!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Logic Audio extension for TDM systems.
> 
> ESB TDM allows the integration of up to 32 EXS24 units in the Aux
> channels of the TDM mixer. EXS24 outputs can be processed entirely
> within the Logic Audio Platinum MacOS TDM environment, using the
> ProTools DSP. Playback timing is sample accurate. The output of
> Logic's audio engine, including native and VST plug-ins, can be fed
> into the TDM mixer. ESB TDM provides the user with an unprecedented
> amount of control over system resources by combining the best of both
> native and hardware DSP processing.
> 
> The ESB TDM expands on Digidesign's DirectConnect technology and
> further demonstrates Emagic's commitment to the TDM platform.
> DirectConnect is a registered trademark of Avid Technoloy, Inc., or
> its subsidiaries or divisions.
> 
> This will create quite a few jealous PT users.
> 
> They claim shipping in May.
> 
> 
> --- In exs-users@y..., "HELP@M..." <HELP@M...> wrote:
>> Technodork,
>> 
>> Thanks for bringing the conversation back to earth and with respect
> for your
>> peers. You make some balanced points in these two recent e-mails. I
> think we
>> can all agree that there are strengths to both setups. Cheers, Jer
>> 
>> 
>> All users,
>> 
>> I've been curious, does anyone know if you can run TDM along side
> VST in the
>> same project? Seems like it would be possible based on what I'm
> seeing in
>> the audio driver/interface window. I know that when I first got an
> ASIO card
>> I could switch a track in the Mixer window to either MacAV or ASIO
> (as long
>> as they were both active in the driver window), but had problems
> (presumably
>> with the MacAV) with stability so I canned the idea. Still seems
> possible in
>> theory. I'm imagining something like the MOTU 828 with a TDM
> interface tied
>> to the Magma PCI expander, which would be connected to a PowerBook.
> Am I
>> nuts? Probably!
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by LogicBaby

Well before emagic comes up with the ESB/TDM thing, the solution was to run
an AudioWerk Card running EASI/VST along TDM. That is what I meant.......
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> ??? What does this have to do with driving two I/Os? I'm asking whether or
> not you can, for example, run TDM hardware at the same time as VST/ASIO
> within the same project...

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-27 by technodork_2000@yahoo.com

It should be possible, I am looking at running my MOTU 
2408mkII alongside and 888/24..........






--- In exs-users@y..., LogicBaby <basharar@m...> wrote:
> Well before emagic comes up with the ESB/TDM thing, the 
solution was to run
> an AudioWerk Card running EASI/VST along TDM. That is what 
I meant.......
> 
> 
> 
> > ??? What does this have to do with driving two I/Os? I'm 
asking whether or
> > not you can, for example, run TDM hardware at the same 
time as VST/ASIO
> > within the same project...

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-28 by Ken Blank

on 4/27/01 7:52 PM, technodork_2000@... at technodork_2000@...
wrote:

> It should be possible, I am looking at running my MOTU
> 2408mkII alongside and 888/24..........
> 

That works fine.  I have both ASIO and TDM running at the same time with 24
channels of lightpipe going from the 2408 to ADAT Bridges.  You have to keep
all the Digi stuff in the expansion chassis, and put the 2408 inside the
computer.  I'm very excited about ESB, but supposedly it only gives you 8
channels one way.  I'm very happy with my 24 in both directions!

Good luck!

Kenny Blank

Torn between two lovers.

2001-04-29 by Phil Buckle

on 4/28/01 3:06 AM, HELP@... at HELP@... wrote:

> Thanks, bro! This is exactly what I was curious about. It sounds amazing!!!
> 
>> Logic Audio extension for TDM systems.
>> 
>> ESB TDM allows the integration of up to 32 EXS24 units in the Aux
>> channels of the TDM mixer. EXS24 outputs can be processed entirely
>> within the Logic Audio Platinum MacOS TDM environment, using the
>> ProTools DSP. Playback timing is sample accurate. The output of
>> Logic's audio engine, including native and VST plug-ins, can be fed
>> into the TDM mixer. ESB TDM provides the user with an unprecedented
>> amount of control over system resources by combining the best of both
>> native and hardware DSP processing.
>> 
>> The ESB TDM expands on Digidesign's DirectConnect technology and
>> further demonstrates Emagic's commitment to the TDM platform.
>> DirectConnect is a registered trademark of Avid Technoloy, Inc., or
>> its subsidiaries or divisions.
>> 
>> This will create quite a few jealous PT users.
>> 
>> They claim shipping in May.
>> 
>> 
>> --- In exs-users@y..., "HELP@M..." <HELP@M...> wrote:
>>> Technodork,

Not so much jealous as frustrated........ but happy. It seems we are
destined to share our work load between 2 apps. Maybe three.
Certain features are indispensable in Logic and PT.
Even if Logic 5 fixes the automation and brings it up to PT spec there is
now Beat Detective to lust over. I cannot live without this .....ever. When
you discover what you can do with Beat Detective you will be lobbying Emagic
to copy it.
The EXS isn't a deal breaker because we now have Soft Sample Cell and that
will run TDM....of course.
The midi spec of PT may be pathetic but it will improve and I've managed
some pretty intricate looping and programming with it BUT the ability to use
VST plug ins in the TDM bus will draw me back to Logic again.
Then again PT has RTAS now, so we'll see what plug ins arrive in the future.
It seems to me the whole TDM verses Native thing is a moot point now that PT
can run TDM and RTAS. The best system is obviously both. TDM and Native
running together. You're never going to beat that combination, I don't care
how big your computer is.  This is available right now.
The other day I was mixing quite a big track and my 3  TDM cards were maxed
out. Using RTAS in PTools I was still able to instantiate 2 Mc DSP Analogue
Channel 2's on the master outs.  Well you've got to hear those plugs to
believe them. This technology that we have available to us now is quite
breathtaking.
Seems like we will be jumping to and fro for a while and really it's not so
bad at all.
Phil Buckle.

Re: [exs] PCI Expansion for Laptops / NATIVE MYTHS

2001-04-29 by technodork_2000@yahoo.com

What difference would it make where the Digidesign PCI card, 
and the MOTU PCI card are placed? Since the MOTU is my only 
PCI card at the moment, I would stick the DIGI in the MAC with it 
also? No expansion chassis...........



--- In exs-users@y..., Ken Blank <kblank@k...> wrote:
> on 4/27/01 7:52 PM, technodork_2000@y... at 
technodork_2000@y...
> wrote:
> 
> > It should be possible, I am looking at running my MOTU
> > 2408mkII alongside and 888/24..........
> > 
> 
> That works fine.  I have both ASIO and TDM running at the 
same time with 24
> channels of lightpipe going from the 2408 to ADAT Bridges.  
You have to keep
> all the Digi stuff in the expansion chassis, and put the 2408 
inside the
> computer.  I'm very excited about ESB, but supposedly it only 
gives you 8
> channels one way.  I'm very happy with my 24 in both 
directions!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Kenny Blank

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