EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

MARCH 9th, 2004

"The Dawn Of The New Era"

by Evan Evans


It's not easy being a guru. You get calls from people asking you for help with little things 
all the time. The pay sucks. But every once in a while an innovation comes out of it that 
makes it all worth while.

It was early this morning (the end of my Monday work day), a friend in Sweden asked me if 
there was a way to get Klopfgeist to go to Audio Instrument #1. We worked with it for a 
few minutes trying to do it. No avail.

Instead I suggested he use an external MIDI sound module. Then within 1 minute a 
cavalcade of brainstorm thoughts started to stream through my brain.

- Why not use a little AU Host app and run a simple click and route it to it with a Virtual 
MIDI port of a MIDI PATCHBAY
- That would free up another EXS Instance
- I thought, what little other APP could we use?
- I thought I could just run another instance of Logic Platinum
- But that doesn't work
- And surely the XSKey wouldn't let you do that
- But actually you can do that if you just rename the APP
- Whoa. This way we could overcome the 4GB limit that G5 users have been experiencing 
with Logic, by running a totally separate copy of it in another RAM Space (that's how OSX 
works)
- You could then access the other copy with MIDI Patchbay and sync them over some kind 
of MIDI Sync Piping.
- Oh heck, why not run 3, 4, 5, 6+ versions of Logic
- And you could PIPE back the audio to the MAIN Logic with WormHole AU
- Oh heck, why not just set the other Logics into Loop Play and use them as simple sound 
modules?

Surely someone had thought of this before. I have been playing a lot of online Poker lately 
and it's not a good idea to share your tricks or everyone would get as good as you and 
make all the money ... Maybe someone has figured this out but kept it to themselves! But 
the possibility of it has only been around since Dual G4s, and certainly with the more 
recent G5s. So maybe there just hasn't been enough time for anyone to realize it, let alone 
set it up and do it, which would take a few days. But if they did, maybe they hoarded it for 
themselves. Well, I for one have never been like that. I think if we level the playing field, we 
each have our own musical gifts and talents and there is still more respectable ways to 
forge ahead and make money. So I am sharing this with you ALL. You can thank me here 
(310) 691-8163 (Gotta love the prank calls that are gonna come from this!)

So I tried it. I duplicated and renamed my Logic Platinum 6.3.3 five times as follows:

Logic Platinum 6.3.3
Logic Platinum 6.3.3 TWO
Logic Platinum 6.3.3 THREE
Logic Platinum 6.3.3 FOUR
Logic Platinum 6.3.3 FIVE
Logic Platinum 6.3.3 SIX

It worked. Connect them up with MIDI Patchbay, pipe Audio back to busses in the MAIN 
Logic with WormHole AU, and bingo!

You can have between 200 and 400+ EXS Instances spread across different Logics this 
way. And since I have about 200 Instruments loaded into 63 EXS Instances via 
keyswitching (using VSL Pro Edition), I can run over 1,200 instruments. Having them all on 
tap. It's possible on a Dual G5 to actually have about 350 EXS Instances sound at the same 
time, but who the heck writes like that? Likely this is to have all teh instruments "on tap". 
Still using only 50 to 150 tracks for writing.

This whole concept is best for orchestral writing where you can set up a template. Because 
you can't use AutoLoads with this setup or all the different Logics will load the same 
sounds up. instead you must save a different template file for each Logic. But because you 
are using the other Logics as a soundsource you have some benefits and one downfall:
BENEFIT: All the Song Information is in the main one songfile.
BENEFIT: Share same PREF file so key commands are same and environment can be same
DOWNFALL: Can't do offline bouncing
DOWNFALL: only works with true CoreAudio compatible Audio Drivers (just about 
everything but Pro Tools hardware)

So there it is. As I see it is a very exciting discovery and I wanted to share it with you all so 
we can say ASTA LA VISTA to being limited to 8,192 open samples, 64 EXS Instances, and 
4GB of RAM. That sucked.

Another barrier broken by the guru!

Evan Evans

The idea of using a main computer running Logic/EXS24, as well as PCs 
(with Gigastudio or whatever) as sound modules has been mentioned before 
on this list, so I thought some of you might be interested in the 1 & 2 
R.U. PCs from Coyote R&D: http://www.coyoterd.com/

Evan,

Thank you very, very much for figuring this out!

Enjoy having so many more sounds ready to go...

Ned

http://www.nedfx.com

    Ned Bouhalassa

n e d @ n e d f x . c o m

This seems pretty significant to me. If I were you, I'd be watching out for 
dark vans parked outside my house. Dark vans with apples on them.

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, Sean McCoy <osr@j...> wrote:
> This seems pretty significant to me. If I were you, I'd be watching out for 
> dark vans parked outside my house. Dark vans with apples on them.

LOL. Oh my. You have had me laughing so hard. I actually was a little worried about this. 
And this comment really has me laughing so hard.

Thanks for that.

Evan

Hi Evan

This is very interesting. Thank you very much.

Can you give us a little more information :

1) Can you explain how you sync the instance of Logic together ?

2) Why do you need to use WormHole AU ? I can play 2 Logic on my Motu PCI
424

Thanks in advance.

Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
Independent Quantum Leap Symphony orchestra forum (QLSO) for Mac
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qlso/"
A6 Andromeda forum :  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A6_andromeda/"
Petition :  ³Support of the APPLE LaserWriter 300 in MAC OS X²
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Ap1c1/petition.html

On 3/9/04 10:51 PM, "Bill Canty" <bill@...> wrote:

> The idea of using a main computer running Logic/EXS24, as well as PCs
> (with Gigastudio or whatever) as sound modules has been mentioned before
> on this list, so I thought some of you might be interested in the 1 & 2
> R.U. PCs from Coyote R&D: http://www.coyoterd.com/
> 

Very Expensive ! I prefer to use my G5 !



Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
Independent Quantum Leap Symphony orchestra forum (QLSO) for Mac
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qlso/"
A6 Andromeda forum :  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A6_andromeda/"
Petition :  ³Support of the APPLE LaserWriter 300 in MAC OS X²
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Ap1c1/petition.html

For those interested in Evan's experiment,

More developments here: http://vsl.co.at/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2579

Interesting... I wonder if Emagic is reading?

Ned

http://www.nedfx.com

    Ned Bouhalassa

n e d @ n e d f x . c o m

On 3/9/04 10:51 PM, "Bill Canty" <bill@...> wrote:
>
>  > The idea of using a main computer running Logic/EXS24, as well as PCs
>>  (with Gigastudio or whatever) as sound modules has been mentioned before
>>  on this list, so I thought some of you might be interested in the 1 & 2
>  > R.U. PCs from Coyote R&D: http://www.coyoterd.com/

From: Cyril Blanc <blanc.cyril@...>

>Very Expensive ! I prefer to use my G5 !

Actually his machines are pretty reasonable, and what he's doing is 
very clever. He has Giga coming up as a screen on the Mac, with MIDI 
distributed over ethernet. Plus he has the system streamlined for 
efficiency - i.e. it's more than the hardware that he's selling.

Despite Evan Evan Evan Evans' great work, the subtext is that the 
present and future for the next few years (in my estimation) is in 
multi-computer set-ups if you want to run libraries that are way 
bigger than one machine can handle. And unfortunately you can't run 
EXS24 mk II (the one with streaming) simultaneously on multiple 
computers unless you want to buy a whole new Logic Pro package. It 
would be great if there were the equivalent of VStack for EXS, but 
there isn't.

So I think Mike Smith (Coyote) has a good solution. Not the only one, 
but a good one. I've met him, and he's a sharp guy.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

On 3/10/04 9:27 PM, "Nick Batzdorf" <recording@...> wrote:
 
> Actually his machines are pretty reasonable, and what he's doing is
> very clever. He has Giga coming up as a screen on the Mac, with MIDI
> distributed over ethernet. Plus he has the system streamlined for
> efficiency - i.e. it's more than the hardware that he's selling.
> 
> Despite Evan Evan Evan Evans' great work, the subtext is that the
> present and future for the next few years (in my estimation) is in
> multi-computer set-ups if you want to run libraries that are way
> bigger than one machine can handle. And unfortunately you can't run
> EXS24 mk II (the one with streaming) simultaneously on multiple
> computers unless you want to buy a whole new Logic Pro package. It
> would be great if there were the equivalent of VStack for EXS, but
> there isn't.
> 
> So I think Mike Smith (Coyote) has a good solution. Not the only one,
> but a good one. I've met him, and he's a sharp guy.

Hi,

First you forgot to say that if you use EXS with libraries like VSL, you can
play huge score. The streaming with the EXS IS VERY VERY GOOD.

I have a friend of mine that played the "From the new world Symphony" from
Anton Dvorak on his G5 2x2 2GB, only 350 MB of memory was used and Logic was
using less that a third of his CPU power.

<Snipped by Admin>

Also the configuration proposed does not include 2 GB, and with the 2GB it
is adding a 1/3 to the price.

A standalone Kompakt can play EXS !

May be the solution is to have Logic and multiple Kontakt/Kompakt on a dual
G5.(a new version of Kontakt just came out)


Thanks in advance.

Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
Independent Quantum Leap Symphony orchestra forum (QLSO) for Mac
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qlso/"
A6 Andromeda forum :  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A6_andromeda/"
Petition :  ³Support of the APPLE LaserWriter 300 in MAC OS X²
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Ap1c1/petition.html

I wrote:

>  > Despite Evan Evan Evan Evans' great work, the subtext is that the
>>  present and future for the next few years (in my estimation) is in
>>  multi-computer set-ups if you want to run libraries that are way
>>  bigger than one machine can handle. And unfortunately you can't run
>>  EXS24 mk II (the one with streaming) simultaneously on multiple
>>  computers unless you want to buy a whole new Logic Pro package. It
>>  would be great if there were the equivalent of VStack for EXS, but
>  > there isn't.

From: Cyril Blanc <blanc.cyril@...>

>First you forgot to say that if you use EXS with libraries like VSL, you can
>play huge score. The streaming with the EXS IS VERY VERY GOOD.

Yes, I've posted many times that the EXS' streaming is very good. And 
you're right, you can get a lot of mileage out of one machine.

And yet I have VSL running on two machines (a dual gig G4  with the 
max 1.5GB RAM and a Windows machine with 2GB - which lets you load 
just over 1GB into Giga) and still need to add at least one more. My 
other PC is running Kontact (EWQLSO), and that's even farther from 
being enough, since that library is so polyphony-intensive (because 
the recorded ambience keeps going when you let go of the note)!

As I've said before (and people doing this understand very clearly), 
the reason you want lots of machines is that even though you can 
*play* a whole orchestration with far less firepower than you 
actually end up using, you want your palette of articulations loaded 
up and ready to play. Otherwise it's like a violinist stopping, 
putting the violin down, picking up another one, adjusting the 
bow...every time he wants to switch from long to short bows. You 
don't want to stop to unload and reload instruments, in other words.

>A standalone Kompakt can play EXS !
>May be the solution is to have Logic and multiple Kontakt/Kompakt on a dual
>G5.(a new version of Kontakt just came out)

Yes, I just discovered yesterday that you can run multiple 
stand-alone Kompakts or Kontakts if you rename them! Pretty cool.

That's one solution, but I think ideally you still want at least two 
machines for VSL and more for other libraries.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

> > Actually his machines are pretty reasonable, and what he's doing is 
> > very clever. He has Giga coming up as a screen on the Mac, 
> with MIDI 
> > distributed over ethernet. Plus he has the system streamlined for 
> > efficiency - i.e. it's more than the hardware that he's selling.
> > 


Kinda interesting I agree.  I use PC's myself in conjunction with my mac and
I think there is nothing wrong with that...not trying to instigate a flame
war there...

Anyway, the thing about that guy's website that makes me a little nervous is
in fact the software.  It's a cool idea, he's not the only one doing it.
But who writes and maintains the software he's packaging up?  How standard
is it?  How reliable?  In theory it might be cool to have a remote desktop
session of the PC...but how much CPU does it hog on either machine?(he says
1% but I'll believe it when I see it).  Right now you can use MS remote
desktop and do pretty much the same thing between OSX and WinXP.  

There are other "cluster" arrangements starting to surface and I do think
this will become more and more common..  For example, one company I've heard
of actually has a product that allows you to run VST plugins remotely.  But
the GUI for the plugin appears in your Mac...even though the DSP processing
is happening remotely.  It sends some kind of VST info back and forth over
the network to the other machine.  Again..in theory..neat idea..even more
streamlined than what this guy is selling...but I have to ask, what about
network latency, etc...

It will be interesting to see these kinds of ideas come out, and be improved
upon...but in my mind..I wouldn't run out and buy one of those PC's today
because of some cool screen shots showing PC windows on a mac desktop and
supposed midi over the network.

For my money, at this time, if I had to network 5 giga PC's together with a
mac running logic...I would just get a video switchbox and run them all
through the switchbox and switch my keyboard/mouse/monitor between which
computer I want to see.  That is more reliable and absolutely performant
than some crazy custom software that is extremely unknown.

"Nick Batzdorf" <recording@...> wrote:
> 
> As I've said before (and people doing this understand very clearly),
> the reason you want lots of machines is that even though you can
> *play* a whole orchestration with far less firepower than you
> actually end up using, you want your palette of articulations loaded
> up and ready to play. Otherwise it's like a violinist stopping,
> putting the violin down, picking up another one, adjusting the
> bow...every time he wants to switch from long to short bows. You
> don't want to stop to unload and reload instruments, in other words.

When I said in my previous message :
I have a friend of mine that played the "From the new world Symphony" from
Anton Dvorak on his G5 2x2 2 GB, only 350 MB of memory was used and Logic
was using less that a third of his CPU power.

This was using instrument with there "Basic set², those "Basic Set" includes
a lot of articulations :D

For Kompakt/QLSO/Kontakt :
I am waiting for the fixes of the DFD to see how many instruments I will  be
able to load.
Today with the DFD* setup to 48/96 248 voices I can play the "From the new
world Symphony" from Anton Dvorak on my G5 2x2 3.5 GB with a 410 GB Raid 0.
It is using much more CPU power than VSL ;o( but it sounds great :o)

I am building an environment using the best "key switched program" find in
QLSO Platinum library so :
* the key switches does not display in the score
* you can define an automatic UP/DOWN bow (one note up one note down)
* you can see in Logic what articulation you are using in clear ; you will
see in the ³Event list² : ³staccato², ³legato², ³UP/DOW bow² etc...

>> A standalone Kompakt can play EXS !
>> May be the solution is to have Logic and multiple Kontakt/Kompakt on a dual
>> G5.(a new version of Kontakt just came out)
> 
> Yes, I just discovered yesterday that you can run multiple
> stand-alone Kompakts or Kontakts if you rename them! Pretty cool.
> 
> That's one solution, but I think ideally you still want at least two
> machines for VSL and more for other libraries.

With one G5 2x2 you can do a lot. When the issue of the DFD* will be fixed I
would love to test one of your score on my G5 to see if it could play it.
(send one to blanc.cyril@...)

* DFD : for the one that are not using NI plug-ins ; this is the name for
the ³virtual memory² handle



Best regards
 
Cyril Blanc
Independent Quantum Leap Symphony orchestra forum (QLSO) for Mac
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qlso/"
A6 Andromeda forum :  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A6_andromeda/"
Petition :  ³Support of the APPLE LaserWriter 300 in MAC OS X²
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Ap1c1/petition.html

On 3/11/04 10:30 PM, "Steve Schow" <steve@...> wrote:

> 
>>> Actually his machines are pretty reasonable, and what he's doing is
>>> very clever. He has Giga coming up as a screen on the Mac,
>> with MIDI 
>>> distributed over ethernet. Plus he has the system streamlined for
>>> efficiency - i.e. it's more than the hardware that he's selling.
> 
> Kinda interesting I agree.  I use PC's myself in conjunction with my mac and
> I think there is nothing wrong with that...not trying to instigate a flame
> war there...
> 
Me neither, I just wanted to say that with ONE G5 2x2 you can do a LOT ;

At least 30 key switched instruments (I have see it running)! if it is not
50 with VSL ! 

Show me score with more !

Best
 
Cyril Blanc
Independent Quantum Leap Symphony orchestra forum (QLSO) for Mac
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qlso/"
A6 Andromeda forum :  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/A6_andromeda/"
Petition :  ³Support of the APPLE LaserWriter 300 in MAC OS X²
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Ap1c1/petition.html

>  > > Actually his machines are pretty reasonable, and what he's doing is
>>  > very clever. He has Giga coming up as a screen on the Mac,
>>  with MIDI
>>  > distributed over ethernet. Plus he has the system streamlined for
>>  > efficiency - i.e. it's more than the hardware that he's selling.
>>  >
>

From: "Steve Schow" <steve@...>

>There are other "cluster" arrangements starting to surface and I do think
>this will become more and more common..

Yes. FX Teleport sends audio and MIDI over ethernet, and the people 
using it report great success. If I add more machines I'll almost 
certainly use it - I'm out of mixer inputs as it is!


>  For example, one company I've heard
>of actually has a product that allows you to run VST plugins remotely.  But
>the GUI for the plugin appears in your Mac...even though the DSP processing
>is happening remotely.  It sends some kind of VST info back and forth over
>the network to the other machine.  Again..in theory..neat idea..even more
>streamlined than what this guy is selling...but I have to ask, what about
>network latency, etc...

FX T is supposed to be manageable, but the trick is to put percussion 
on the local machine.

>It will be interesting to see these kinds of ideas come out, and be improved
>upon...but in my mind..I wouldn't run out and buy one of those PC's today
>because of some cool screen shots showing PC windows on a mac desktop and
>supposed midi over the network.

No, you have to see it working.

>For my money, at this time, if I had to network 5 giga PC's together with a
>mac running logic...I would just get a video switchbox and run them all
>through the switchbox and switch my keyboard/mouse/monitor between which
>computer I want to see.  That is more reliable and absolutely performant
>than some crazy custom software that is extremely unknown.

Other people have reported the opposite to be true, although the 
IOGear USB KVM (keyboard video mouse) switcher I have works 
perfectly. Well, occasionally machines  don't see the mouse when  you 
first start up, but after cycling  the KVM's power it comes back on.
-- 

Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, cell 590-9101, fax 905-5434

> Me neither, I just wanted to say that with ONE G5 2x2 you can 
> do a LOT ;
> 
> At least 30 key switched instruments (I have see it running)! 
> if it is not 50 with VSL ! 
> 
> Show me score with more !
> 


Some day I might be able to afford a G5 and VSL.  For today...my measly G4
and GPO will have to suffice...

> Other people have reported the opposite to be true, although the 
> IOGear USB KVM (keyboard video mouse) switcher I have works 
> perfectly. Well, occasionally machines  don't see the mouse when  you 
> first start up, but after cycling  the KVM's power it comes back on.
> -- 
> 

Those are solvable issues.  But having remote desktop sessions going on
between computers is orders of magnitude more complex in terms of data bits
being routed everywhere...and the impact on your HD/CPU, etc..