EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Hi guys an' gals,

(6 months later and still haven't used the EXS24 for anything. Will try 
not to be too negative, but I really feel like going back to a QX5 and 
JV1080, after smashing this AU$10000 pile of sh*t with a sledgehammer, 
that is...)

Most obvious problem in this latest attempt to use the EXS24 is that 
after a few minutes or seconds it starts blasting out a very loud and 
harsh white noise every time a note's played.

It happens on both OS9.2.2 with Propogamma's USB ASIO driver, and on OS 
10.3.4 with Digidesign's latest CoreAudio driver.

Don't want to waste another $1k or so on hardware to replace the Mbox 
only to find that the fault's elsewhere, so...

Any clues? Please?



Yours hopefully,  Bill Canty




Original Message:

From:  Bill Canty
Date:  Sat Dec 13, 2003  6:44 pm
Subject:  Live Playing vs Sequence Playback?

OK, I mentioned a few weeks back that I hadn't used the EXS24 cos I
could hardly get it to work on my system, and threatened to be back with
specific questions once I'd narrowed my problems down a bit. Well, the
day has arrived...

When I play my master keyboard, triggering an EXS24, many notes go
missing, or get stuck, or play at the wrong pitch (often what sounds
like a couple of octaves too high).

(This also happens when I use an ES P or ES E softsynth.)

But when I record some similar playing, then play it back, it seems to
be OK.

Is this a Logic/EXS24/Emagic softsynth problem, and therefore normal
behaviour?

Or does it still sound like a problem somewhere in my system? If so, any
clues as to where the gremlin(s) might be lurking?

G4/733, 1.5GB RAM, 500MB assigned to Logic 5.5.0, Griffin gPort (serial
port), MOTU MTP2, Yamaha KX88 master keyboard

Thanks in advance for any help! I've had the EXS24 for over a year, but
haven't used it at all because of this problem, so I'll be *RAPT* if
someone can help me sort it out! =8-)

Bill Canty wrote:
 
> (6 months later and still haven't used the EXS24 for anything. Will try
> not to be too negative, but I really feel like going back to a QX5 and
> JV1080, after smashing this AU$10000 pile of sh*t with a sledgehammer,
> that is...)

(snip)

> Any clues? Please?

Have you tried  increasing the I/O Buffer Size (in Audio>Audio Hardware &
Drivers?

Andris

On Jun 26, 2004, at 8:22 PM, Andris Sice wrote:

> Have you tried  increasing the I/O Buffer Size (in Audio>Audio 
> Hardware &
> Drivers?

FTR, the MBox buffers don't go any lower than 512; (or .5; depending on 
how it is expressed). This is quite unusable for any "real world" 
overdubbing, midi input on soft synths, etc.

--------
Eli Krantzberg
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com
Almat Productions



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eli Krantzberg wrote:
> FTR, the MBox buffers don't go any lower than 512; (or .5; depending on
> how it is expressed). This is quite unusable for any "real world"
> overdubbing, midi input on soft synths, etc.

Seriously, if at all, I've heard nothing else but about problems from people
using MBox'es.
IMO it's overpriced and not well done and the drivers (no matter whether
you're using a Mac or PC) are crap. Let alone the fact that a device,
basically designed to be a more or less mobile solution, has no MIDI I/O.
Sure, the converters might sound nice, but that's about it.

If I was in the situation, I would try to get rid of it and get something
like that
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.main&ID=41cf7347b20eff77b69588578a74aa58
instead.
M-Audio are known for proper drivers and their hardware quality has never
been questionable. There's a Firewire model to be released soon as well,
from what I know.

Oh yes, usually I don't like advices such as "forget about what you have and
buy something else", but in that case it might just save you from quite some
frustration.

Regards,
Sascha

On 2004Jun27, at 2:19 AM, Bill@... wrote:

> Most obvious problem in this latest attempt to use the EXS24 is that
> after a few minutes or seconds it starts blasting out a very loud and
> harsh white noise every time a note's played.

I have this problem with my M-Audio Delta T-DIF card.  For me, it's a 
sync issue.  More than one piece of gear is trying to be the clock 
master and there can only be 1.  Check all your digital devices and 
make sure that only 1 is master.
What bugs me is that the driver reverts to master (I need it to be a 
slave) EVERY TIME I start my Mac.
So if I forget to change this every morning I get a sonic enema as soon 
as I try to play a note through the EXS24.

Ouch.

I hope this helps.
_
with best wishes,
John
http://abram.ca/

Eli Krantzberg wrote:

> On Jun 26, 2004, at 8:22 PM, Andris Sice wrote:
> 
>> Have you tried  increasing the I/O Buffer Size (in Audio>Audio
>> Hardware &
>> Drivers?
> 
> FTR, the MBox buffers don't go any lower than 512; (or .5; depending on
> how it is expressed). This is quite unusable for any "real world"
> overdubbing, midi input on soft synths, etc.

I meant the buffers in Logic, sorry, should have specified.

Andris

On Jun 27, 2004, at 4:18 PM, Andris Sice wrote:
>>
>> FTR, the MBox buffers don't go any lower than 512; (or .5; depending 
>> on
>> how it is expressed).
>
> I meant the buffers in Logic, sorry, should have specified.


We're talking about the same thing. The range of the buffer settings 
are dictated by the Digidesign drivers, not by Logic. Core audio in OS 
X and Direct I/O in OS 9. Both the Direct I/O and Core Audio drivers 
don't allow the MBox to be set lower than 512. Wether it's a physical 
limitation of the actual hardware, or a limitation of how Digidesign 
wrote the drivers doesn't really matter. The result is the same. No 
buffer settings available lower than 512 in apps that use these drivers 
( like Logic) to address the MBox.

--------
Eli Krantzberg
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com
Almat Productions



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sincere thanks to all who've responded so far to my request for help 
with the Mbox. :-)

I'm not ignoring you - just pretty busy right now, but I'll look into 
all the suggestions a.s.a.p. and get back to you.


Cheers,   Bill Canty

> We're talking about the same thing. The range of the buffer settings
> are dictated by the Digidesign drivers, not by Logic. Core audio in OS
> X and Direct I/O in OS 9. Both the Direct I/O and Core Audio drivers
> don't allow the MBox to be set lower than 512. Wether it's a physical
> limitation of the actual hardware, or a limitation of how Digidesign
> wrote the drivers doesn't really matter. The result is the same. No
> buffer settings available lower than 512 in apps that use these drivers
> ( like Logic) to address the MBox.

I seem to recall a mate of mine using the Mbox with the ASIO driver 
under OS9 at really small latencies.
Mmm, maybe that was only ever possible under OS9
_____________________________________________________
MATT MCKENZIE-SMITH
MUSIC • AUDIO DESIGN • PRODUCTION
PO Box 10395, Adelaide 5000, South Australia.
Ph.+61 416 197 883
_____________________________________________________

On Jun 28, 2004, at 7:00 AM, Matt McKenzie-Smith wrote:
>
> I seem to recall a mate of mine using the Mbox with the ASIO driver
> under OS9 at really small latencies.
> Mmm, maybe that was only ever possible under OS9

Yes, a company called Propagamma came out with some third party ASIO 
drivers for the MBox which reputedly greatly improved performance. I 
don't know much about them though. You can find out more about this 
product here:  http://www.usb-audio.com/


--------
Eli Krantzberg
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com
Almat Productions



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sascha Franck wrote:
> 
> Seriously, if at all, I've heard nothing else but about problems from
> people using MBox'es.
[snip]
> Oh yes, usually I don't like advices such as "forget about what you have
> and buy something else", but in that case it might just save you from
> quite some frustration.


Thanks Sascha. In the 23 months I've had the Mbox I've had no joy with 
it. I thought OSX might've saved the day, but it hasn't. So if this 
isn't sorted out VERY soon I'll ditch it and probably get a MOTU 828mkII.

BTW, does anyone have the 828mkII playing well with the EXS24? Like, can 
you play notes on your MIDI keyboard and hear the EXS24 without 
unacceptable latency, and without stuck, missing and wrong notes, and 
without sudden, ear-shattering distortion?

TIA


Cheers,   Bill Canty

Hello Bill,

I have a MOTU 828 MK2. I had some issues with it early on.
As soon as audio would hit the 828, it would squeal and 
distort, then lock up. I thought I had a bad unit until
I found out that my Firewire card had an NEC chipset
which is incompatible with the 828. Be sure that if you use
a PCI Firewire card, it has the Texas Instruments chipset on it.
The EXS sounds great out of the 828. You can adjust for any latency
from the Logic Audio Drivers menu in OSX. Of course the best results
are achieved with a powerful Mac loaded with as much Ram as
you can get. Good Luck!

Kevin Grady
Allmuzic 24-7
Composer, Producer, Sound Designer,
Apple Certified Logic Pro 6 Trainer/Technician
E-mail:   allmuzic247@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thebestest4me@... wrote:
> Hello Bill,

G'day Kevin,

> I have a MOTU 828 MK2. I had some issues with it early on.
> As soon as audio would hit the 828, it would squeal and 
> distort, then lock up. I thought I had a bad unit until
> I found out that my Firewire card had an NEC chipset
> which is incompatible with the 828. Be sure that if you use
> a PCI Firewire card, it has the Texas Instruments chipset on it.

No, I'd be using the inbuilt Firewire on my Mac.

Which I'm assuming is OK, unless someone can tell me any different?

> The EXS sounds great out of the 828. You can adjust for any latency
> from the Logic Audio Drivers menu in OSX. Of course the best results
> are achieved with a powerful Mac loaded with as much Ram as
> you can get. Good Luck!

Sounds hopeful then. Thanks! :-)

Hi Bill,

We've just had to replace the (broken) Hammerfall DSP in some university
studio temporarily and the local shop gave us a MOTU 896HD (firewire) for
two weeks. It just worked nicely along with the G5 (2x2gHz) and Logic (under
OSX 10.3), latencies were just as low as with the Hammerfall - so, playing
the EXS and other virtual instruments just was flawless.
Now, not that it would be a 828mkII, but AFAICS, MOTU allways uses the same
(or pretty similar) drivers for all their actual interfaces, plus, their
driver support has been getting WAY better than it was until, say, 1-2 years
ago. So I can't see a reason why it won't work properly.

I am however wondering - do you really need all those I/Os? I mean, you were
just talking about getting your MBox to work properly, which only features
stereo I/Os.
That's why I recommended having a look at products such as M-Audio's newer
USB/Firewire cards (sure, there's no Focusrite preamps on them, but after
all
that's just a name as well... and the 828 doesn't feature any pre's at all).

Regards,
Sascha

Sascha Franck wrote:
> Hi Bill,

G'day Sascha

> We've just had to replace the (broken) Hammerfall DSP in some university
> studio temporarily and the local shop gave us a MOTU 896HD (firewire) for
> two weeks. It just worked nicely along with the G5 (2x2gHz) and Logic (under
> OSX 10.3), latencies were just as low as with the Hammerfall - so, playing
> the EXS and other virtual instruments just was flawless.

So it's not an impossible dream, at least with a 2x2GHz Mac.

> Now, not that it would be a 828mkII, but AFAICS, MOTU allways uses the same
> (or pretty similar) drivers for all their actual interfaces, plus, their
> driver support has been getting WAY better than it was until, say, 1-2 years
> ago. So I can't see a reason why it won't work properly.

That's encouraging. :-)

> I am however wondering - do you really need all those I/Os?

I've got 4 hardware synths, so 8 analogue ins *would* be very convenient 
- I could just leave 'em all plugged in and ready to record. :-)

I reckon it'll be a l-o-n-g time before I trust an all-software setup, 
especially for live use.

> I mean, you were
> just talking about getting your MBox to work properly, which only
>  features stereo I/Os.

Yeah, I know. I'd be constantly plugging and unplugging synths, but the 
rack is arranged so that's very easy to do. But the Mbox's biggest 
advantage... (drum roll...) is that I already own one.

 > That's why I recommended having a look at products such as M-Audio's
 > newer USB/Firewire cards

Yep - good stuff, good prices.

> (sure, there's no Focusrite preamps on them, but after
> all that's just a name as well...

But it *is* a good name. Pity the rest of the box doesn't work properly yet.

> and the 828 doesn't feature any pre's at all).

According to http://www.motu.com/english/motuaudio/828/features.html it 
has "two mic pre-amps with switchable 48-volt phantom power, front-panel 
trim controls and pre-amplified sends." The bulk of what I do is with 
synths rather than miked stuff, so I'd be quite happy with that.

And there are a few other things I really like about the 828mkII, on 
paper at least. If I'm gonna bother to upgrade again I'd like to be 
completely happy with the outcome this time.

Got a "favourite" search registered at eBay. ;-)


Cheers,   Bill

OK, time to wind this up. THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP!!! :-) Sorry it's
taken so long to respond (hassles with email, experiments with Mbox,
other major distractions, etc.)

Conclusions:

In OS9: Mbox seems totally useless, even with the Propagamma ASIO driver
(which I've tried to use right from the start). But that could be the
fault of my OS9 setup, which is becoming less and less usable for
anything, not just Logic/Mbox. All Mac users will have to move to OSX 
eventually in order to use the latest version of Logic, so I'll do it 
now, although slightly reluctantly.

In OSX: it seems that the buffer size needs to be at least 512k, which
could be tolerated. But even in iTunes it functions badly.

Overall: FAIL! I'm ditching the Mbox. It's probably great with ProTools,
but not with Logic. Not on my computer anyway.

Special thanks to Michael Scheurer who brought his Tascam US-122 over 
here. It worked flawlessly with buffer sizes right down to 64k in OSX, 
although the driver wouldn't install in OS9.

I'll probably go for the MOTU 828mkII - great features and reviews. 
Selling the Mbox and current mixer (which the 828 will, hopefully, 
render redundant) at Oz prices will probably provide enough $ for one on 
eBay. Can't justify the expense of the likes of RME, etc.

So, I'll f-i-n-a-l-l-y be able to do some recording and use Logic's 
softsynths and EXS24! :-)


Cheers,   Bill Canty

> No, I'd be using the inbuilt Firewire on my Mac.
>
> Which I'm assuming is OK, unless someone can tell me any different?

Nope, the 828mk2 thought the internal Firewire works like a charm. Zero 
perceptible latency.


Brian
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Logic Audio Pro 6.4.2
PowerMac G4 933MHz
OS X 10.3.4
1 GB RAM
MOTU 828mkII
   - driver v1.09
   - CueMix v1.4

Does anyone have any idea why aftertouch from my keyboard turns the 
volume of the EXS24 down to -60dB?

Any helpful suggestions most gratefully accepted!

I've inserted a transformer b/w the physical input and sequencer input 
to filter all channel pressure, but it makes no difference.

MIDI remote is off, and no key commands have any MIDI setting.

The EXS24 doesn't fluctuate according to the aftertouch value; instead, 
any occurence of aftertouch simply turns it down to -60dB and leaves it 
there.

All modulation settings in the EXS24 are blank, except for the first 
one, which is velocity to sample select.

Is there some mysterious hidden setting that I've missed?


Cheers,   Bill Canty