EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

Speaking of film music: The thought of composing music for films and 
other projects has probably occurred to many of the non-professionals 
on this list - but how do you get started writing, say, orchestral 
music, when you have no formal education?

One place to start would be to look for a sample library with 
orchestral sounds and judging from various reviews it seems 
like "Advanced Orchestra" is a good choice. But since these CDs will 
cost you 5 * $250, most people will not buy them unless they're sure 
they'll be able to use them properly (you can start by investing in 
the very cheap Protools versions for a start though). Will you have 
to do a lot of tweaking in EXS in order to use the samples? How 
difficult is it to learn how to write orchestral music if you have no 
formal training?

According to amazon.com, there are some books about music theory that 
might be relevant, i.e.:

* Samuel Adler, "The study of orchestration"
* Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov, "Principles of orchestration"
* Kent Kennan, Donald Grantham, "The technique of orchestration"
* Kent Kennan, "Counterpoint"
* Cecil Forsyth, William Bolcom, "Orchestration"

Which book(s) are recommendable to someone without formal musical 
training?

While you're saving up (!) for the full version of "Advanced 
Orchestra", you could rent some good movies and analyze how music is 
used in them. One could look for the list of previous Oscar winning 
film scores and make sure to look into different genres too. Also, 
both older and newer movies are relevant, i.e. the old Hitchcock-
movies are said to use music very well (never payed any conscious 
attention to it myself; will have to rent some of them and listen.)

You could also look into the works of some of the famous composers 
out there, i.e. Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer, John Barry etc., and 
maybe pick up one of the books with interviews with these people as 
it would give you an idea of how things work when you're writing 
music professionally.

Finally: Is it possible (and legal) to rent a DVD movie and 
then "save" all or some of it in a format that can be loaded into 
Logic? If so, it would give you a chance to pretend you're writing 
the soundtrack for a movie which would be a very interesting exercise.

Anyway, this is hopefully a subject of interest to people on this 
list.

Merry christmas,
Henrik Jensen

PS. Just replaced MicroLogic with the Gold-EXS bundle and am thus new 
to these programs as well as to this list. It seems like an 
interesting forum though

on 12/23/01 2:38 AM, triton_technology at eco912371@... wrote:

> Speaking of film music: The thought of composing music for films and
> other projects has probably occurred to many of the non-professionals
> on this list - but how do you get started writing, say, orchestral
> music, when you have no formal education?
> 
> One place to start would be to look for a sample library with
> orchestral sounds and judging from various reviews it seems
> like "Advanced Orchestra" is a good choice. But since these CDs will
> cost you 5 * $250, most people will not buy them unless they're sure
> they'll be able to use them properly (you can start by investing in
> the very cheap Protools versions for a start though). Will you have
> to do a lot of tweaking in EXS in order to use the samples? How
> difficult is it to learn how to write orchestral music if you have no
> formal training?
> 
> According to amazon.com, there are some books about music theory that
> might be relevant, i.e.:
> 
> * Samuel Adler, "The study of orchestration"
> * Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov, "Principles of orchestration"
> * Kent Kennan, Donald Grantham, "The technique of orchestration"
> * Kent Kennan, "Counterpoint"
> * Cecil Forsyth, William Bolcom, "Orchestration"
> 
> Which book(s) are recommendable to someone without formal musical
> training?


I'm only familiar w/ the N. R-K title, but if I would expect the challenges
of many of the books will be in their references to musical theories. One
book I might sugggest (a little dated -see below-but still very useful) is
Paul Gilreath's 'The Guide to MIDI Orchestration'. Instead of focusing on
the theories of writing music, it approaches things from things to listen
for, ie: ranges, instrument groupings, stylistic iterpretation, etc.
It does not try to be a treatise on musical theory. It's a brief, easy to
read book, that is "aimed at the intermediate to advanced midi user, and
presents detailed information on the characteristics of an orchestra's sound
and applies these concepts to the midi environment" (from the back cover).

Unfortunately, the biggest section (about 60 of the 170 pages) is devoted to
reviewing various sample libraries (publ. 1997, 2nd edition). While many of
the staples are there, we've all seen the rapid growth in available
libraries, so by its' nature this section could not possibly remain up to
date.

I just checked, and his website can still be found at www.paulgilreath.com I
see that there in more info on the book there.


Regards,

    Shane


-- 
Shane Fawkes, 
Director of Music, 
Walnut Grove Secondary School,
Langley, B.C. Canada

sfawkes@...
sfawkes@...

At 10:38 AM 12/23/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Speaking of film music: The thought of composing music for films and
>other projects has probably occurred to many of the non-professionals
>on this list - but how do you get started writing, say, orchestral
>music, when you have no formal education?

Just do it!  Lack of formal education never stopped people like Danny Elfman.

>One place to start would be to look for a sample library with
>orchestral sounds and judging from various reviews it seems
>like "Advanced Orchestra" is a good choice. But since these CDs will
>cost you 5 * $250, most people will not buy them unless they're sure
>they'll be able to use them properly

Advanced Orchestra is good, but I'm finding I need multiple libraries to 
approach happiness. That's why I'm so in debt.

>According to amazon.com, there are some books about music theory that
>might be relevant, i.e.:
>
>* Samuel Adler, "The study of orchestration"
>* Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov, "Principles of orchestration"
>* Kent Kennan, Donald Grantham, "The technique of orchestration"
>* Kent Kennan, "Counterpoint"
>* Cecil Forsyth, William Bolcom, "Orchestration"
>
>Which book(s) are recommendable to someone without formal musical
>training?

I'm familiar with the Rimsky-Korsakov, which is great for strings, but 
extremely dated in its information on winds and brass, and the Kennan, 
which is an excellent all-around guide.  Those two, and I'd venture to 
guess the same for all the rest, do necessarily delve into music 
theory.  Valuable in any event as guides to instrument ranges, etc.  I have 
the Samuel Adler on order, but the release of the CD's that go with it have 
been repeatedly delayed.  Something like that would probably be the best 
choice for someone with less music education.

>While you're saving up (!) for the full version of "Advanced
>Orchestra", you could rent some good movies and analyze how music is
>used in them. One could look for the list of previous Oscar winning
>film scores and make sure to look into different genres too. Also,
>both older and newer movies are relevant, i.e. the old Hitchcock-
>movies are said to use music very well (never payed any conscious
>attention to it myself; will have to rent some of them and listen.)
>
>You could also look into the works of some of the famous composers
>out there, i.e. Jerry Goldsmith, Hans Zimmer, John Barry etc., and
>maybe pick up one of the books with interviews with these people as
>it would give you an idea of how things work when you're writing
>music professionally.
>
>Finally: Is it possible (and legal) to rent a DVD movie and
>then "save" all or some of it in a format that can be loaded into
>Logic? If so, it would give you a chance to pretend you're writing
>the soundtrack for a movie which would be a very interesting exercise.

DVD's are a great resource.  Look especially for the increasing number that 
include isolated scores.  Hearing the music with the picture beats the heck 
out of listening to soundtrack CD's.  I don't know of a way to extract 
audio from a CD, but there's nothing to stop you from recording the audio 
analog realtime.  If you need picture, you'll likely need to use VHS and a 
video capture card.  Nothing illegal about it as long as you don't 
repackage and sell it!  BTW, get a DVD copy of Hitchcock's "North by 
Northwest," which has an isolated Bernard Hermann score, and you'll swear 
you're listening to a Danny Elfman score.  Elfman has singled Hermann out 
as his greatest influence.

>Anyway, this is hopefully a subject of interest to people on this
>list.
>
>Merry christmas,
>Henrik Jensen

on 24/12/01 4:28 PM, Sean McCoy at osr@... wrote:
 
> I'm finding I need multiple libraries to
> approach happiness. That's why I'm so in debt.

I'm finding I need multiple orgasms to approach happiness, but hey a good
tremolo violin section gets close.

:)

D
P.S Why am I posting to the list on Christmas Day?! Well, I've just stuffed
myself with lovely vegetarian dinner, postponed the Christmas pudding til we
have room, and I'm waiting for the 11Mb of pics from Canada to arrive for
our visiting septuagenarian  Aunt who is over in the UK to stay...when
they've arrived she's going online to chat with her family. ......Merry
Christmas all.

-- 
Web Design, Music Composition and Production, Music Technology Training and
MORE!
www.chadales.co.uk

> I'm finding I need multiple orgasms to approach happiness, 
but hey a good
> tremolo violin section gets close.
---

well then, heres a fine christmas present. may be considered 
very ot, but this actually provides more energy for creative 
pursuits....not to mention your partner finding you the most  
sexually amazing man ever :)

"the multi-orgasmic man"
by mantak chia and douglas abrams
published by harper collins
isbn 0-06-251335-2

enjoy!

andy

> well then, heres a fine christmas present. may be considered
> very ot, but this actually provides more energy for creative
> pursuits....not to mention your partner finding you the most
> sexually amazing man ever :)
> 
> "the multi-orgasmic man"
> by mantak chia and douglas abrams
> published by harper collins
> isbn 0-06-251335-2

Er.....well, it was actually a little joke, but hey, who says email lists
aren't useful!

I would like to assemble some horn section instruments for arrangements in
EXS. Does anyone have recommendations of the best *free* samples or
soundfonts, or cheap audio CDs for creating some smoking sections: sax,
trumpet, trombone etc.

Any suggestions appreciated.



Neil Goldstein
Portland, Oregon



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