EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I'm looking to expand my exs-24 library. I'm especially looking for 
spectrasonic cd's. If anyone would like to sell their collection please 
e-mail me in private.



Jad


_________________________________________________________________
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>I'm looking to expand my exs-24 library. I'm especially looking for
>spectrasonic cd's. If anyone would like to sell their collection please
>e-mail me in private.

Hi Jad,

In case you didn't know, this is illegal. Spectrasonics CD's are 
licensed for the original purchaser only.

Regards - Colin

In a message dated 7/22/02 10:03:13 AM, jaddriggers@... writes:

>I'm looking to expand my exs-24 library. I'm especially looking for 
>spectrasonic cd's. If anyone would like to sell their collection please
>
>e-mail me in private.


Hi Jad,

It's illegal for Spectrasonics customers to sell our CD-ROMs used, as the 
licenses are non-transferrable and each user has been made aware of this and 
agreed to it. Anyone selling, buying or using Spectrasonics disc that didn't 
buy original versions from an authorized dealer is unlicensed and can get in 
a lot of legal trouble.

Please don't engage in this activity, or use this forum for this purpose.

Thanks,

Eric Persing
Spectrasonics

Sorry,
I was not aware that you could not resale the cd's. 
> 
> In a message dated 7/22/02 10:03:13 AM, jaddriggers@h... 
writes:
> 
> >I'm looking to expand my exs-24 library. I'm especially looking 
for 
> >spectrasonic cd's. If anyone would like to sell their collection 
please
> >
> >e-mail me in private.
> 
> 
> Hi Jad,
> 
> It's illegal for Spectrasonics customers to sell our CD-ROMs 
used, as the 
> licenses are non-transferrable and each user has been made 
aware of this and 
> agreed to it. Anyone selling, buying or using Spectrasonics 
disc that didn't 
> buy original versions from an authorized dealer is unlicensed 
and can get in 
> a lot of legal trouble.
> 
> Please don't engage in this activity, or use this forum for this 
purpose.

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Eric Persing
> Spectrasonics

----- Original Message -----

From: jaddriggers
To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [exs] CD's for sale?


Sorry,
I was not aware that you could not resale the cd's.
>

a non-transferable License doesn't mean that u can't sell it .. no ?
I unsderstand that the buyer doesn't have any license, that's all... but u
can sell them without license, no ?

igor

>
>Sorry,
>I was not aware that you could not resale the cd's.
>>
>
>a non-transferable License doesn't mean that u can't sell it .. no ?
>I unsderstand that the buyer doesn't have any license, that's all... but u
>can sell them without license, no ?
>
>igor


No. Look at the End User License Agreements that come with your package. 
Most all producers including Spectrasonics and ILIO prohibit you from 
selling our CDs. The reason is, you only buy the license, not the disc. 
If you purchased the library from an authorized seller, you have the 
right to use the sounds in your music (as many times as you want), but 
only the producer has the right to sell them in the first place. It makes 
sense. Otherwise, we developers would have gone out of business a long 
time ago! It really comes down to rewarding the people who make the 
sounds to begin with, which is only fair.

Anyway, when in doubt, read the license agreement!

-Mark
ILIO

No. Look at the End User License Agreements that come with your package.
Most all producers including Spectrasonics and ILIO prohibit you from
selling our CDs. The reason is, you only buy the license, not the disc.
If you purchased the library from an authorized seller, you have the
right to use the sounds in your music (as many times as you want), but
only the producer has the right to sell them in the first place. It makes
sense. Otherwise, we developers would have gone out of business a long
time ago! It really comes down to rewarding the people who make the
sounds to begin with, which is only fair.

Anyway, when in doubt, read the license agreement!

-Mark
ILIO
**********
that's very interesting mark, and thank you to take a part of the discussion
:o) I've just finish myself a SOund CD that's why I'm playing the "evil "
part of the discussion...

you said : " No. Look at the End User License Agreements that come with your
package. "
I can write myself a lot of things on a CD :o) like " you can hear it 1893
times only "
I mean, is it because it is written on the CD that justify the right to sell
or not the CD ? what is the regular law about it ?

you said : " Most all producers including Spectrasonics and ILIO prohibit
you from
selling our CDs. "

Ok, I understand that it is better for "you" to prohibit the resell, but is
it fair ?
In that direction, u can prohibit to "smoke " near the Cd ? or to sing on
the sound for money in a Bar ?( that can be really strange ! :o)

you said : "The reason is, you only buy the license, not the disc. "
ok, so I can give it for free, I mean the CD ?

you said :" If you purchased the library from an authorized seller, you have
the
right to use the sounds in your music (as many times as you want), but
only the producer has the right to sell them in the first place. "

So , it is better to sell CD to producer. Because I have a license but my
producer ( the man who sell "MY" record) doesn't have any License...
SONY Music who sell my last record and produce it don't  have any License.
What is the situation ????

you said : "Otherwise, we developers would have gone out of business a long
time ago! "

not true, because users/people are honest and they understand that they need
you to produce sounds , it can take too much time for a composer to create
his own soundBank.

ok, I push the thinking a little far, no ;o)
I always encourage people to listen and buy CD, it is SO important that you
( sound designers/developpers) bring us ( Composer/programers) sounds !

igor

In a message dated 7/22/02 2:56:04 PM, yael@... writes:

>that's very interesting mark, and thank you to take a part of the discussion
>:o) I've just finish myself a SOund CD that's why I'm playing the "evil
>"
>part of the discussion...
>
>you said : " No. Look at the End User License Agreements that come with
>your
>package. "
>I can write myself a lot of things on a CD :o) like " you can hear it 1893
>times only "
>I mean, is it because it is written on the CD that justify the right to
>sell
>or not the CD ? what is the regular law about it ?

The agreement is on the outside of the package, not on the CD. It is written 
in easy to understand "FAQ" form and as a regular license agreement. Every 
package can be returned if the user doesn't agree to the terms.

Legally, it's actually quite simple. We sell sound recording licenses. We own 
the license, we set the terms. You agree to the terms when you open the 
package. Don't agree? Return it.

It says on the outside of the package that you are not allowed to resell the 
CDs. Very clear.

>
>you said : " Most all producers including Spectrasonics and ILIO prohibit
>you from
>selling our CDs. "
>
>Ok, I understand that it is better for "you" to prohibit the resell, but
>is
>it fair ?

We sell a lifetime, unlimited-use license to use thousands of our sound 
recordings in your own music for a flat fee that is the same for every user. 
This is why we believe our system is incredibly fair.

To license a single sample from a commerical recording ranges in price from 
$10,000-$250,000 dollars. This is for a ONE-TIME use. (BTW, you can't sell 
those licenses used either)

Obviously, our deal is much more reasonable. We could have easily not allowed 
any commercial use, but instead we have a very generous policy for pros and 
semi-pros.

If those limitations aren't good for hobbyists, then they can buy hobbyist 
level libraries, which are available in many places.

>In that direction, u can prohibit to "smoke " near the Cd ? or to sing
>on
>the sound for money in a Bar ?( that can be really strange ! :o)

You are being a bit silly, but in seriousness, every user should look at the 
limitations of the sample licenses they purchase. Some companies forbid 
multimedia use, library music use, trailer music, or some restrict commercial 
use at all withut an additional license.

Our policy doesn't include any of these limitations, but you should always 
check, since each producer handles it differently.

>you said : "The reason is, you only buy the license, not the disc. "
>ok, so I can give it for free, I mean the CD ?

No, that's also included in the the license agreement. You cannot give away 
the product either. Again, this is made extremely clear on the outside of the 
package. 

>you said :" If you purchased the library from an authorized seller, you
>have
>the
>right to use the sounds in your music (as many times as you want), but
>only the producer has the right to sell them in the first place. "
>
>So , it is better to sell CD to producer. Because I have a license but
>my
>producer ( the man who sell "MY" record) doesn't have any License...
>SONY Music who sell my last record and produce it don't  have any License.
>What is the situation ????

Simple...you're the artist and you have a license to make music with it. 
There's no problem.

Record companies often ask us for releases to ensure this fact, which we are 
happy to sign to help the process if necessary.

Hope that helps clarify. We have always had the same policy and been very 
open about it. Thousands of professional musicians are able to use our 
products without problems and respect our right to our "one user/one license 
fee" policy.

Best,

Eric Persing
Spectrasonics

yael wrote:
> 
> you said : "Otherwise, we developers would have gone out of business a long
> time ago! "
> 
> not true, because users/people are honest and they understand that they need
> you to produce sounds , it can take too much time for a composer to create
> his own soundBank.


Ummm, what planet are you from?  ;-)

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mark Hiskey" <mark@...>
To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>


> If you purchased the library from an authorized seller, you have the
> right to use the sounds in your music (as many times as you want), but
> only the producer has the right to sell them in the first place.
Ok. Now I have a serious question. Its not an issue for me, but I see a hole
in the system (trust a software engineer to find the bugs)

Scenario A : Say I have an Ilio sample CD (I dont as I cant afford 'em as Im
a hobbyist sadly :-( ) which has drums on it. Now I use that to create the
drums in a track I produce. I can legally sell my audio recording under the
sample CD licence. OK. Thats the simple bit. Now some enterprising young
chap samples my release and thieves a drum loop. As its a sparse loop
(s)he's recycled out some individual hits as well as the drum loop I
programmed. I get onto the PRS and get royalties for the use of my sample,
but they are using the Ilio samples without licence even though they got
them from my music. How do you work out such a situation?

Scenario B : I'm a cheeky git trying to work the system. I record all the
samples individually, dry, and spaced by a few seconds on an audio CD and
call it my 'work' and distribute as such. 'Use' in 'work' is allowed under
the licence, but this is blatantly a way to try and get around it as I have
copyright of the recording. Why couldnt one get away with this?

Sorry to play devils advocate, but its in my nature to try and find flaws
with everything!

Best Wishes,

~Pev

P.S. Can I get a free sample CD for being a nice community spirited guy?
Damn, thought not... ;-)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.comm

The agreement is on the outside of the package, not on the CD. It is written
in easy to understand "FAQ" form and as a regular license agreement. Every
package can be returned if the user doesn't agree to the terms.

* If I don't read, I cannot buy a CD then ?

Legally, it's actually quite simple. We sell sound recording licenses. We
own
the license, we set the terms. You agree to the terms when you open the
package. Don't agree? Return it.

It says on the outside of the package that you are not allowed to resell the
CDs. Very clear.

* what about inheritance ? ;o) can my son have a license ??

>you said : " Most all producers including Spectrasonics and ILIO prohibit
>you from
>selling our CDs. "

>Ok, I understand that it is better for "you" to prohibit the resell, but
>is
>it fair ?

We sell a lifetime, unlimited-use license to use thousands of our sound
recordings in your own music for a flat fee that is the same for every user.
This is why we believe our system is incredibly fair.

* yes, true...
*Can a gouvernement sold my sounds CD if I'm in Bankrupt ?? are you sui them
? ( I like this one !! :o)

To license a single sample from a commerical recording ranges in price from
$10,000-$250,000 dollars. This is for a ONE-TIME use. (BTW, you can't sell
those licenses used either)

* for a "song sample" license yes, but you sell sounds not Music.


If those limitations aren't good for hobbyists, then they can buy hobbyist
level libraries, which are available in many places.

* well, some people cannot be hobbyists and want good quality sounds
then...??

>In that direction, u can prohibit to "smoke " near the Cd ? or to sing
>on
>the sound for money in a Bar ?( that can be really strange ! :o)

You are being a bit silly, but in seriousness, every user should look at the
limitations of the sample licenses they purchase. Some companies forbid
multimedia use, library music use, trailer music, or some restrict
commercial
use at all withut an additional license.

* yes, I'm playing with ideas here ;o) scared ! isn't it... but as u said "
better read the license !"


>you said : "The reason is, you only buy the license, not the disc. "
>ok, so I can give it for free, I mean the CD ?

No, that's also included in the the license agreement. You cannot give away
the product either. Again, this is made extremely clear on the outside of
the
package.

* it is worst than a mariage ! :o) u cannot divorce :o)



Hope that helps clarify. We have always had the same policy and been very
open about it. Thousands of professional musicians are able to use our
products without problems and respect our right to our "one user/one license
fee" policy.
Best,
Eric Persing
Spectrasonics

* yes Eric, thx a lot and I hope this relax discussion will open some eyes
;o) oopss I mean some ears !
igor

So, let me ask a question.  What if I buy one of your
sample CD's and decide that it sucks or just doesn't
really have the sounds that I thought it would
provide...I'm stuck with it for life???

-- N

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

Igor.

Could you please stop writing "u" instead of "you".
That thing drives me crazy.
I guess you are from france and I accept all the other strange language
stuff (from anyone).
I make many mistakes myself writing english.
I know you are not making a mistake but it´s deliberate.
But it feels like communicating with a 10 year old boy ,chatting!

Strange how some small things like that can annoy you (among all the other
misstakes from people.)

Please forgive me Igor, I hope you won´t be angry with me.

Michael  (Sweden)

> * yes, I'm playing with ideas here ;o) scared ! isn't it... but as u said "
> better read the license !"

> 
> * it is worst than a mariage ! :o) u cannot divorce :o)

 
> * yes Eric, thx a lot and I hope this relax discussion will open some eyes
> ;o) oopss I mean some ears !
> igor

I'll answer on behalf of Spectrasonics products, as ilio is another 
company...but our licensing policies are the same.

>Scenario A : Say I have an Ilio sample CD (I dont as I cant afford 'em
>as Im
>a hobbyist sadly :-( ) which has drums on it. Now I use that to create
>the
>drums in a track I produce. I can legally sell my audio recording under
>the
>sample CD licence. OK. Thats the simple bit. Now some enterprising young
>chap samples my release and thieves a drum loop. As its a sparse loop
>(s)he's recycled out some individual hits as well as the drum loop I
>programmed. I get onto the PRS and get royalties for the use of my sample,
>but they are using the Ilio samples without licence even though they got
>them from my music. How do you work out such a situation?

You don't get PRS or ASCAP royalties when someone steals your sound 
recording. You have to sue them for copyright infringement to get money. The 
infringer would be liable to you and the sample producer.

>
>Scenario B : I'm a cheeky git trying to work the system. I record all the
>samples individually, dry, and spaced by a few seconds on an audio CD and
>call it my 'work' and distribute as such. 'Use' in 'work' is allowed under
>the licence, but this is blatantly a way to try and get around it as I
>have
>copyright of the recording. Why couldnt one get away with this?

The license specifically states that you cannot produce other works intended 
for sampling, it has to be used in a musical context. Derivitive sampling 
works are not permitted.

-EP

In a message dated 7/22/02 4:13:09 PM, yael@... writes:

You french guys really like to debate....eh?

>* If I don't read, I cannot buy a CD then ?

People who cannot read are still subject to the laws that govern them. They 
generally have people around who can explain things to them. BTW, we also 
state the license agreement in audio form for those who cannot or refuse to 
read the agreement.

>* what about inheritance ? ;o) can my son have a license ??

No. Not without transferring the license. If your son is a composer who uses 
the sounds, he would need to obtain a multi-user license. We do all kinds of 
special situation licenses...all you have to do is contact us to arrange it 
on a case by case basis.

>*Can a gouvernement sold my sounds CD if I'm in Bankrupt ?? are you sui
>them? ( I like this one !! :o)

No, they cannot....however, I don't plan on suing the French government 
anytime soon!

>To license a single sample from a commerical recording ranges in price
>from
>$10,000-$250,000 dollars. This is for a ONE-TIME use. (BTW, you can't sell
>those licenses used either)
>
>* for a "song sample" license yes, but you sell sounds not Music.

That's incorrect....I'm not speaking about pulishing rights for songs, but 
licensing sound recordings...for example, sampling a drum loop from a 
commerical music CD (James Brown Funky Drummer for example) is what I'm 
talking about. There's no musical difference between that and what we do 
(except ours is much more flexible and useful.

>* well, some people cannot be hobbyists and want good quality sounds
>then...??

It's not a matter of "want", it's a matter of what is allowed. As I said, 
there are many other alternatives available if someone doesn't want to work 
this way,

>* it is worst than a mariage ! :o) u cannot divorce :o)

No...it's better, because once you buy it, it doesn't cost anymore in the 
future...and we don't require taking out the trash or doing dishes.

>* yes Eric, thx a lot and I hope this relax discussion will open some eyes
>;o) oopss I mean some ears !

Me too!

-EP

In a message dated 7/22/02 4:44:07 PM, goosefan@... writes:

>So, let me ask a question.  What if I buy one of your
>sample CD's and decide that it sucks or just doesn't
>really have the sounds that I thought it would
>provide...I'm stuck with it for life???

Technically, this is true of all pro CDs on the market. However, most of 
Spectrasonics distributors are very reasonable, and will work with you to 
make sure you are happy with your purchase. ILIO in particular is very good 
about this, and problems like you described are handled on a case by case 
basis. This is one of the reasons why it is a good idea to buy through a good 
distributor like ILIO. You can ask around for opinions on the best CDs, 
Distributors and Service.....that's one of the best things about this forum.

Hope that answers your question.

-EP

PS. Of course, our job is to make sure our products don't suck! Hopefully, 
you will find that the opposite is true. That's something we work very hard 
at.

Hi Eric,

While we're on the subject of copyright, licensing etc....

If I have been asked to remix another artist's song can I use Spectrasonics'
samples in the remix. i.e. They are the composer of the original work and
will therefore receive all royalties from my remix, however
I would be credited on the CD as the remixer and would be paid for my work.
Would the artist require an additional license?

Matt

P.S. I own about 12 CD-Roms from your library; can't live without them!
Keep up your good work.

> I'll answer on behalf of Spectrasonics products, as ilio is another
> company...but our licensing policies are the same.
> 
>> Scenario A : Say I have an Ilio sample CD (I dont as I cant afford 'em
>> as Im
>> a hobbyist sadly :-( ) which has drums on it. Now I use that to create
>> the
>> drums in a track I produce. I can legally sell my audio recording under
>> the
>> sample CD licence. OK. Thats the simple bit. Now some enterprising young
>> chap samples my release and thieves a drum loop. As its a sparse loop
>> (s)he's recycled out some individual hits as well as the drum loop I
>> programmed. I get onto the PRS and get royalties for the use of my sample,
>> but they are using the Ilio samples without licence even though they got
>> them from my music. How do you work out such a situation?
> 
> You don't get PRS or ASCAP royalties when someone steals your sound
> recording. You have to sue them for copyright infringement to get money. The
> infringer would be liable to you and the sample producer.
> 
>> 
>> Scenario B : I'm a cheeky git trying to work the system. I record all the
>> samples individually, dry, and spaced by a few seconds on an audio CD and
>> call it my 'work' and distribute as such. 'Use' in 'work' is allowed under
>> the licence, but this is blatantly a way to try and get around it as I
>> have
>> copyright of the recording. Why couldnt one get away with this?
> 
> The license specifically states that you cannot produce other works intended
> for sampling, it has to be used in a musical context. Derivitive sampling
> works are not permitted.
> 
> -EP

Michael Karlsson ha ecrit:

> Igor.
> 
> Could you please stop writing "u" instead of "you".
> That thing drives me crazy.

In my opinion, way to many people misspell the word "too."

Bob

--

Founder, Cooper appreciation Society
 

"who's naughty on this plane??  I AM!!!!"

Thoughts from the mind of PersingEP@..., 23-07-2002:

>  >Scenario B : I'm a cheeky git trying to work the system. I record all the
>>samples individually, dry, and spaced by a few seconds on an audio CD and
>>call it my 'work' and distribute as such. 'Use' in 'work' is allowed under
>>the licence, but this is blatantly a way to try and get around it as I
>>have
>>copyright of the recording. Why couldnt one get away with this?
>
>The license specifically states that you cannot produce other works intended
>for sampling, it has to be used in a musical context. Derivitive sampling
>works are not permitted.

Interesting discussion...  However the above surely is impossible to 
"enforce".  There's no clear definition as to what a "musical 
context" is (listen to any modern composers of the last century, and 
you'll know what I mean :).  A couple of loose drum-hits, in varying 
tempo, combined with some drums being hit simultaneously... and 
presto, a musical context.  Heck, I'll even throw in a few notes from 
a tuba, if that makes it more musical.
Who is to say that this is a work "intended for sampling" then? 
Impossible imo.  And I'm free to put such a piece of music on my 
website, royalty-free, for everyone to download and use whichever way 
they see fit.

In the end there's always a way to avoid such licensing schemes, I 
suppose, if someone _really_ wants to.  The only thing you, 
CD-makers, can do is try to make it as difficult as possible.  Still 
"as difficult as possible" isn't necessarily very difficult...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

In a message dated 7/22/02 11:10:09 PM, simmphonic@... writes:

>While we're on the subject of copyright, licensing etc....
>
>If I have been asked to remix another artist's song can I use Spectrasonics'
>samples in the remix. i.e. They are the composer of the original work and
>will therefore receive all royalties from my remix, however
>I would be credited on the CD as the remixer and would be paid for my work.
>Would the artist require an additional license?

No. You are free to use them in any remixes. It works the same as for session 
musicians that come in and play on a project using our samples.

Really, the whole idea of a one person, one-time license is to keep it 
simple. You got the gig, so of course it's no problem to use the sounds you 
have licensed.

I'm sure the impression some reading this thread would get is that the 
license is hopelessly complex and that we police the use of the samples like 
crazy, neither of which is true. We made the system we did in order to keep 
it as simple and easy as possible, so that we could concentrate on making new 
products and you can concentrate on making music.

>
>Matt
>
>P.S. I own about 12 CD-Roms from your library; can't live without them!
>Keep up your good work.

Thanks man!  Nice to hear....

> In the end there's always a way to avoid such licensing schemes, I
> suppose, if someone _really_ wants to.  The only thing you,
> CD-makers, can do is try to make it as difficult as possible.  Still
> "as difficult as possible" isn't necessarily very difficult...

Could we lay this issue to rest? The intent of the license is clear.
Promoting disrespect to developers is drastically off topic and not helpful
to the list.

It's simple...music means the sounds aren't isolated and are presented with 
other sounds as a musical composition...we don't judge artistic merit.

Sampling works are products which utilize the samples to create a new sample 
library or instrument....ie; a competitive product that licenses sounds or 
creates an instrument in the same way that we do.

Believe me, we have many more problems with out and out piracy than people 
trying to do the crazy hypothetical situations everyone is firing at me here. 
The people breaking the law are not so subtle!

-EP

In a message dated 7/22/02 11:54:39 PM, h@... writes:

>Interesting discussion...  However the above surely is impossible to 
>"enforce".  There's no clear definition as to what a "musical 
>context" is (listen to any modern composers of the last century, and 
>you'll know what I mean :).  A couple of loose drum-hits, in varying 
>tempo, combined with some drums being hit simultaneously... and 
>presto, a musical context.  Heck, I'll even throw in a few notes from 
>a tuba, if that makes it more musical.
>Who is to say that this is a work "intended for sampling" then? 
>Impossible imo.  And I'm free to put such a piece of music on my 
>website, royalty-free, for everyone to download and use whichever way 
>they see fit.
>
>In the end there's always a way to avoid such licensing schemes, I 
>suppose, if someone _really_ wants to.  The only thing you, 
>CD-makers, can do is try to make it as difficult as possible.  Still 
>"as difficult as possible" isn't necessarily very difficult...

Thoughts from the mind of PersingEP@..., 23-07-2002:

>It's simple...music means the sounds aren't isolated and are presented with
>other sounds as a musical composition...we don't judge artistic merit.

That's not simple imo.  Really, I'm not making propaganda for any 
sort of illegal activity here.  I just think that all this copyright 
& licensing stuff has extremely fuzzy borders -- and that this will 
never change, no matter how hard everyone tries to protect his/her 
own work.
Define "not isolated" for instance.  There's plenty of modern music 
that has loads of isolated sounds -- a "pling" here and a "ploing" 
there.  Where is the border between music and non-music?  What 
percentage of the duration of a piece may consist of isolated sounds 
before it is no longer "music"???
Heck, John Cage even wrote a piece consisting of 4'33 of silence -- 
and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright 
infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence or 
whatever.  If that is not fuzzy, then what is?

>Believe me, we have many more problems with out and out piracy than people
>trying to do the crazy hypothetical situations everyone is firing at me here.
>The people breaking the law are not so subtle!

Sure, if I wanted to break the law, I would simply burn a copy of 
your CDs somehow.  Way easier than the hypothetical scenario outlined 
before.  Still the very fact that there can be no completely 
clear-cut borders between "theft" and "original work as condoned by 
the license" is interesting in itself.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Eric P wrote:

> In a message dated 7/22/02 4:44:07 PM, goosefan@... writes:
>
> >So, let me ask a question.  What if I buy one of your
> >sample CD's and decide that it sucks or just doesn't
> >really have the sounds that I thought it would
> >provide...I'm stuck with it for life???
>
> Technically, this is true of all pro CDs on the market.

And this is kind of the downside of sample CD's for me - some CD's you
purchase to have a nice new library of sounds - fair enough, scan the
market, go listen and play with them at a dealer, buy the good ones.

However, they are a sizeable investment to anyone who's not making a good
living at this stuff (for the pros, they are actually pretty cheap!). Often,
I'll be sitting composing some music, and I'll be like :- "Ok, I need a good
multisampled muted trumpet". And for that I have to buy Quantum Leap Brass,
a 6 CD-set for something like \ufffd600... it's not gonna happen. Whereas I would
happily pay \ufffd30 for a single multisampled instrument, or maybe up to \ufffd80 for
a family (kind of like typeface useage). This works out more expensive per
sound than buying the entire CD, but you have the luxury of choosing what
you want. If you want the complete set, then buy the full library -
otherwise, you buy as you go.

There are a number of online single-sound purchase/download companies
around, but none (that I've found anyway) are really offering the
multisampled sounds of the sort of quality as the really good companies.

I know there are practicalities (delivery formats and so on) to consider but
I'd love to see companies like Spectrasonics going down this route - I'm not
sure if they feel that by splitting their libraries up like this they are
devaluing their products?

> PS. Of course, our job is to make sure our products don't suck!

And from what I've seen, you do a fantastic job Eric...

Ben Hall
www.benhall.co.uk

O.K. - I write a song made up of a whole bunch of samples in my library.
There is no way I can remember where I got all my samples from - my
directory structure is designed for retrieving sounds e.g. drum
sounds/dub/kicks : Analogue/lead etc. not structured to trace back who the
original supplier was.
If a developer hears a song, and decides that one of his sounds is used, I
assume it is up to them to prove that the sound is in breech of copyright,
and not up to the musician to prove the origin of the sample ?

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Hendrik Jan Veenstra [mailto:h@...]
  Sent: 23 July 2002 12:16
  To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [exs] CD's for sale?


  Thoughts from the mind of PersingEP@..., 23-07-2002:

  >It's simple...music means the sounds aren't isolated and are presented
with
  >other sounds as a musical composition...we don't judge artistic merit.

  That's not simple imo.  Really, I'm not making propaganda for any
  sort of illegal activity here.  I just think that all this copyright
  & licensing stuff has extremely fuzzy borders -- and that this will
  never change, no matter how hard everyone tries to protect his/her
  own work.
  Define "not isolated" for instance.  There's plenty of modern music
  that has loads of isolated sounds -- a "pling" here and a "ploing"
  there.  Where is the border between music and non-music?  What
  percentage of the duration of a piece may consist of isolated sounds
  before it is no longer "music"???
  Heck, John Cage even wrote a piece consisting of 4'33 of silence --
  and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright
  infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence or
  whatever.  If that is not fuzzy, then what is?

  >Believe me, we have many more problems with out and out piracy than
people
  >trying to do the crazy hypothetical situations everyone is firing at me
here.
  >The people breaking the law are not so subtle!

  Sure, if I wanted to break the law, I would simply burn a copy of
  your CDs somehow.  Way easier than the hypothetical scenario outlined
  before.  Still the very fact that there can be no completely
  clear-cut borders between "theft" and "original work as condoned by
  the license" is interesting in itself.

  --
  Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
  Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:
> 
> Heck, John Cage even wrote a piece consisting of 4'33 of silence --
> and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright
> infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence or
> whatever.

LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?

Please Man....stop making it so complicated. If you release an album with our 
samples combined with others to make a musical work...that's music. If you 
release a sampling CD that from our material, that is licensed to others that 
is theft.

Let's not get into the boring specifics OK. I'd be happy to turn you on to 
numerous copyright attorneys that can explain all the details, case law and 
legal precedents. It's not as gray as you think.

But I agree that this is way off topic and we have beaten this horse beyond 
death!

-EP

>
>That's not simple imo.  Really, I'm not making propaganda for any 
>sort of illegal activity here.  I just think that all this copyright 
>& licensing stuff has extremely fuzzy borders -- and that this will 
>never change, no matter how hard everyone tries to protect his/her 
>own work.
>Define "not isolated" for instance.  There's plenty of modern music 
>that has loads of isolated sounds -- a "pling" here and a "ploing" 
>there.  Where is the border between music and non-music?  What 
>percentage of the duration of a piece may consist of isolated sounds 
>before it is no longer "music"???
>Heck, John Cage even wrote a piece consisting of 4'33 of silence -- 
>and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright 
>infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence or 
>whatever.  If that is not fuzzy, then what is?
>
>>Believe me, we have many more problems with out and out piracy than people
>>trying to do the crazy hypothetical situations everyone is firing at me
>here.
>>The people breaking the law are not so subtle!
>
>Sure, if I wanted to break the law, I would simply burn a copy of 
>your CDs somehow.  Way easier than the hypothetical scenario outlined 
>before.  Still the very fact that there can be no completely 
>clear-cut borders between "theft" and "original work as condoned by 
>the license" is interesting in itself.

If you go to court, both sides have to prove evidence. In the case of our 
samples, obviously this isn't a problem (unless you are using illegal copies 
of course!)

-EP

In a message dated 7/23/02 4:48:24 AM, matt@... writes:

>O.K. - I write a song made up of a whole bunch of samples in my library.
>There is no way I can remember where I got all my samples from - my
>directory structure is designed for retrieving sounds e.g. drum
>sounds/dub/kicks : Analogue/lead etc. not structured to trace back who
>the
>original supplier was.
>If a developer hears a song, and decides that one of his sounds is used,
>I
>assume it is up to them to prove that the sound is in breech of copyright,
>and not up to the musician to prove the origin of the sample ?

Thoughts from the mind of Bill Canty, 24-07-2002:

>Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:
>>
>>  Heck, John Cage even wrote a piece consisting of 4'33 of silence --
>>  and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright
>>  infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence or
>>  whatever.
>
>LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?

No, unfortunately not.  It was briefly discussed in the L-OT (Logic 
off-topic) group a few weeks back.  But it makes you wonder, doesn't 
it?

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Thoughts from the mind of PersingEP@..., 23-07-2002:

>Please Man....stop making it so complicated. If you release an album with our
>samples combined with others to make a musical work...that's music. If you
>release a sampling CD that from our material, that is licensed to others that
>is theft.
>
>Let's not get into the boring specifics OK. I'd be happy to turn you on to
>numerous copyright attorneys that can explain all the details, case law and
>legal precedents. It's not as gray as you think.
>
>But I agree that this is way off topic and we have beaten this horse beyond
>death!

Okay, okay, calm down...  Sorry, I didn't want to annoy anyone.  Not 
at all in fact.  And usually I don't tend to engage in discussions 
like these, since they're mostly quite boring and lead nowhere. 
However, this time my curiosity was peaked because of the kind of 
arguments involved -- i.e. using samples for "real music" versus 
using them "for sampling purposes".  Even though the intent of such 
statements is perfectly clear (from a purely "we're all humans and 
speak the same language" perspective), the practicalities involved 
are not that clear at all imo.  I just thought it was interesting to 
explore what the borders are and how one would go about defining them 
(if at all).  The Cage-lawsuit is just one example of how fuzzy this 
all is.  But if it annoys people, then fine (well... not fine), let's 
give it a rest.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

> >>  and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright
> >>  infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence 
or
> >>  whatever.
> >
> >LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?
>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2133426.stm

Serves him right for giving us The Wombles.

Cheers


Ron

ronniewibbley wrote:
> 
> > >LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2133426.stm

Hey - thanks Ron! :-)

> Serves him right for giving us The Wombles.

(Fortunately, by the sound of it) I've been spared that cultural
indulgence. ;-)

..hate to think of you missing out :-

http://www.jvsplace.co.uk/tv/Wombles.wav

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bill Canty [mailto:Bill@...]
  Sent: 24 July 2002 16:51
  To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [exs] Silent pieces (was CD's for sale?)


  ronniewibbley wrote:
  > 
  > > >LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?
  > 
  > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/2133426.stm

  Hey - thanks Ron! :-)

  > Serves him right for giving us The Wombles.

  (Fortunately, by the sound of it) I've been spared that cultural
  indulgence. ;-)

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In exs-users@y..., "Matt" <matt@b...> wrote:
> ..hate to think of you missing out :-
> 
> http://www.jvsplace.co.uk/tv/Wombles.wav

Cruel, cruel man...

Other crimes against humanity include "Bright Eyes" from the 
Watership Down film, the theme for the 2001 Conservative Party 
election campaign ("I wanted the music to have gravitas, to be 
orchestral but also modern - to have compassion and warmth of spirit, 
but at the same time, strength of purpose."), and Vanessa Mae, 
although he does score some pub quiz points for imprisoning Chris 
Spedding, leatherclad '70s British rock session guitarist supreme, in 
a Wombles suit with a Gibson Flying V hanging from his furry 
shoulders for the Wombles' 1970s glory years...

> > >>  and now some sod is being sued by Cage's family for copyright
> > >>  infringement on that, since he also recorded a piece of silence
>or
> > >>  whatever.
> > >
> > >LOL!!! Do you know any more details on that one?
> >
>
>Serves him right for giving us The Wombles.

No, think of it as a Zen thing - how does the sound of one hand 
clapping compare with the sound of Dubya not making a speech, or me 
staring out of the window when I should be crafting my 6 hour silent 
piece to really up the PRS payments.

Is this forum veering mildly OT or is our consciousness expanding?

<You have been disconnected>

<No, I was always disconnected>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Is this forum veering mildly OT or is our consciousness expanding?
> 
> <You have been disconnected>
> 
> <No, I was always disconnected>

Deep, man.

sorry, just one last comment:















thank you and good nite,mn








>From: HELP@...
>Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
>To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [exs] Silent pieces (was CD's for sale?)
>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:58:47 -0500
>
> > Is this forum veering mildly OT or is our consciousness expanding?
> >
> > <You have been disconnected>
> >
> > <No, I was always disconnected>
>
>Deep, man.
>




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world\ufffds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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on 26/7/02 5:34 AM, Micke Nilsson at mickenilsson@... wrote:

> sorry, just one last comment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thank you and good nite,mn
> 
What you said in the middle of your post is what I say between every word.
Are none of my ideas sacred?
Phil Buckle.