EXS 24 Logic Sampler Users Group

I am trying to loop a drum loop (recorded from the beginning of the 
Depeche Mode song "Useless".)

The loop is 5 bars long and to make the looping seem as smooth as 
possible I use two audio tracks, each with the drum loop, so that the 
first audio file runs from bar 1-5 and the next from bar 6-10.

However, the second audio file "starts too early" at position
6 1 1 1. The transition is smoother if the starting point is
changed to 6 1 2 1 - but then the loop gets more and more "out of 
sync" as the song position advances.

Has anyone had this kind of problem too? Hope it is described alright.

Best regards,
Henrik Jensen

Van: h_b_jensen <evil_wicked@...> [mailto:evil_wicked@...] :
> However, the second audio file "starts too early" at position
>6 1 1 1. The transition is smoother if the starting point is 
>changed to 6 1 2 1 - but then the loop gets more and more "out of 
>sync" as the song position advances.

It is not exactly clear to me what is wrong in relation to EXS. 

But if I understand it right, you could fix the 'problem' by adjusting
the Logic song tempo just a tiny bit. Loops have fixed durations, unless
they are treated as pitched sounds.

If you need a different song tempo you can either do time-stretching on
the loop or import it into a VST-plugin like PhatmatikPro and slice it
up.

Herbert Boland
www.zeppelin.demon.nl
www.mp3.com/ztudio_zeppelin

Doesn't sound like an EXS issue to me at all. Are you looping audio in the
arrange window? If so, press [Apple]+[2] (Mac) or [CNTRL]+[2] (PC). Look at
the duration of each loop. They should all fall on a bar measure and be
equal to each other. In fact, select all affected tracks, then do this. They
will all pop up in the edit list with their measurement lengths displayed.
If it's in the EXS, then you should be using non-looped samples which are
retriggered as bar-length notes like anything else. Since your problem
worsens as the song progresses, my first suggestion is probably the
appropriate one. Best wishes, Jer

> From: "Herbert Boland" <yahoo@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:36:42 +0100
> To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [exs] Drum loop gets "out of sync"
> 
> Van: h_b_jensen <evil_wicked@...> [mailto:evil_wicked@...] :
>> However, the second audio file "starts too early" at position
>> 6 1 1 1. The transition is smoother if the starting point is
>> changed to 6 1 2 1 - but then the loop gets more and more "out of
>> sync" as the song position advances.
> 
> It is not exactly clear to me what is wrong in relation to EXS.
> 
> But if I understand it right, you could fix the 'problem' by adjusting
> the Logic song tempo just a tiny bit. Loops have fixed durations, unless
> they are treated as pitched sounds.
> 
> If you need a different song tempo you can either do time-stretching on
> the loop or import it into a VST-plugin like PhatmatikPro and slice it
> up.
> 
> Herbert Boland
> www.zeppelin.demon.nl
> www.mp3.com/ztudio_zeppelin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

>
>But if I understand it right, you could fix the 'problem' by
>adjusting the Logic song tempo just a tiny bit. Loops have fixed
>durations, unless they are treated as pitched sounds.
>
>If you need a different song tempo you can either do time-
>stretching on the loop or import it into a VST-plugin like
>PhatmatikPro and slice it up.
>

and

>
>Doesn't sound like an EXS issue to me at all. Are you looping
>audio in the arrange window? If so, press [Apple]+[2] (Mac)
>or [CNTRL]+[2] (PC). Look at the duration of each loop. 
>
You are both right - after using time-stretching to adjust the audio 
file duration and after reducing the song speed from 120 to 118, it 
loops fine. Thanks!

(will use the drum loop while jamming with my guitar)

Best regards,
Henrik Jensen

Just wanted to share a way of making a guitar arpeggio part sound 
really good. I started with a Exs patch of my own guitar (open 
strings sampled) and programmed a quantized arpeggio part that 
sounded ok. I then copied that part to two more tracks which I 
humanized individually using Logic's transform function (both note 
position and velocity). The two new tracks were assigned to Exs 
instruments using the same guitar patch but one detuned four 
semetones up and the other four semitones down. The pitch of the two 
new tracks were also detuned in the opposite way to make the tracks 
play in tune. This changed the sound of the basic patch so it sounded 
like three different instruments.

The quantized part were panned center and the other two tracks were 
panned hard left and right.

The result was a super tight guitar part that fitted perfectly with 
the drum loop but that sounded really organic at the same time.
The same principle of detuning instruments could probably be used on 
other sound as well.

/Anders

detuned via what method?

> From: Anders Wollbeck <wollbeck@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:55:54 +0100
> To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [exs] Humanized Guitars
> 
> The pitch of the two
> new tracks were also detuned in the opposite way

HELP@... wrote:

> detuned via what method?
>
>  Guitars
> >
> > The pitch of the two
> > new tracks were also detuned in the opposite way
>

I was wondering the same thing. Interesting tip!



--
Eli Krantzberg
Nightshift Orchestra / Almat Productions
http://www.nightshiftorchestra.com

Once upon a time, I related how much I hated Virtual Guitar. We'll in my
search for a programmable stand-in guitar player, I discovered the VST
plugin Slayer. I'd like to take a moment to recommend Slayer as a capable
emulation of electric guitar (using modeling) which is useful to me in a lot
of situations, particularly in industrial or hard-edged dance music in my
case. It costs a fraction of what I spent of Virtual Guitar. You can find it
at http://www.reFX.net. While not a replacement for a real guitarist, it's
found a comfortable fit in my arsenal of virtual instruments.

I also recommend their synth, PlastiCZ, which I found to be as refreshingly
different from most other synths as I felt Abysynth was. PlastiCZ is a VST
synth that has a very distinctive, full sound and it's as easy as cake to
manipulate and change. I'm blown away at it's diverse sound textures derived
from a relatively small set of controls. It's actually fun and easy to
program.

My hat goes off to reFX. (No they didn't put me up to this, nor am I
deriving any benefit from making this recommendation. Just sharing some
valuable tools with my EXS neighbors). PS: They do intend to support Audio
Units.

-Jer

On Thursday, December 19, 2002, at 03:49  PM, <HELP@...> 
wrote:

> I'd like to take a moment to recommend Slayer as a capable
> emulation of electric guitar (using modeling) which is useful to me in 
> a lot
> of situations, particularly in industrial or hard-edged dance music in 
> my
> case.

I second that recommendation. The modeled feedback is especially juicy 
and appropriately unpredictable.
>
> I also recommend their synth, PlastiCZ, which I found to be as 
> refreshingly
> different from most other synths as I felt Abysynth was. PlastiCZ is a 
> VST
> synth that has a very distinctive, full sound and it's as easy as cake 
> to
> manipulate and change. I'm blown away at it's diverse sound textures 
> derived
> from a relatively small set of controls. It's actually fun and easy to
> program.

Based on Casio style phase distortion, I believe? You hit the nail on 
the head with your comments. Recommended from me as well.
>

> PS: They do intend to support Audio
> Units.
Gotta love that.
>
--------
Edmund Eagan
www.twelfthroot.com

>detuned via what method?
>


The Exs instruments were detuned +4 and -4 by means of the "tune" 
knob on the front panel and the tracks were transposed  by the equal 
amount in the opposite direction. Not "detuned". I just used the 
wrong term.  Btw other ways of getting the two "dub" guitars to sound 
different from the main guitar is to use an lfo to modulate pitch, 
amp or the filter slightly. But to me the "detuning/transposing" 
method sounded much better.

/Anders

> "h_b_jensen <evil_wicked@...>" <evil_wicked@...>
> Subject: Drum loop gets "out of sync"
> 
> I am trying to loop a drum loop

> The loop is 5 bars long and to make the looping seem as smooth as
> possible I use two audio tracks, each with the drum loop, so that the
> first audio file runs from bar 1-5 and the next from bar 6-10.
> 
> However, the second audio file "starts too early" at position
> 6 1 1 1. The transition is smoother if the starting point is
> changed to 6 1 2 1 - but then the loop gets more and more "out of
> sync" as the song position advances.

Henrik, check your Tempo!

Too early means too fast!

--->>>>Adjust Tempo by Object Size and Locators
> 
> Has anyone had this kind of problem too? Hope it is described alright.

Sync is always a problem, but THIS is not a sync-problem
> 
> Best regards,
> Henrik Jensen

Happy tuning;-)

Nikolaus Sieveking
nap - nichtlineareaudioproduktionen
<niko@...>

> DON'T SAMPLE OR EMULATE GUITAR PLAYERS!
> 
> Sascha
> (slowly getting unemployed)

hahahaha....

I was in Vienna recently and was talking to a (kind of lame but semi
successful) producer there. He said "virtual guitarist is the best guitarist
in the world". He had a smile on his face that indicated he was very proud
of himself for using VG.

I said, "that's great! congratulations on finding that *cracked* software.
What happens when they update it with a new feature that pretends your music
is good too, will you actually buy it then? and... By the way, thank god I
won't have to ever play on your totally limp trax and emulate your totally
sucky overly neurotic non-musical ideas ever again... oops, unless you need
a solo"

thank god for virtual guitarist for filtering out the work I don't want any
more as a guitarist. It really is the best guitarist in the world... : )

teddybut

PS when is "virtual composer" coming out? I think some people would really
benefit from a program that has good song ideas.

As I recall, I think there was some kind of hit (crap) song (commercial
sludge) that came out recently that used Virtual Guitarist. Teddy, your
email is hilarious to me because I thought VG was the worst instrument ever
to be released. I feel like Steinberg should be liable for punitive damages
for releasing the worst (only a freakin' single-octive set of sampled chords
(just what I love... prefab chord progressions of lifeless crapola)
disguised as a VST instrument that doesn't even go from C3 to C4. Given
that, the price is obscene. It's not even worth $50. Fortunately I was able
to recover the expense on ebay. I was speechless after the 4-hour
installation. I had been so excited and was completely floored by it's
pathetic, uninspiring anti-nature.

So, consider this statement when I say that I really enjoy working with
Slayer. It's not real life, but it is very useable and flexible for much of
what I need. Hey, look Ma, I'm playing my own chords... whooopie! On a
serious note, you can sustain a key until the feedback self-oscillates.
Cool. Plus, by default the mod wheel becomes the note-bend-up (much like a
real guitar's capability) and the pitch-bend wheel slides up and down the
frets one octave either way. Great FX box too.

> From: teddybut <teddybut@...>
> Reply-To: exs-users@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:19:36 -0500
> To: <exs-users@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [exs] Re: [OT] Slayer (guitar plugin)
> 
>> DON'T SAMPLE OR EMULATE GUITAR PLAYERS!
>> 
>> Sascha
>> (slowly getting unemployed)
> 
> hahahaha....
> 
> I was in Vienna recently and was talking to a (kind of lame but semi
> successful) producer there. He said "virtual guitarist is the best guitarist
> in the world". He had a smile on his face that indicated he was very proud
> of himself for using VG.
> 
> I said, "that's great! congratulations on finding that *cracked* software.
> What happens when they update it with a new feature that pretends your music
> is good too, will you actually buy it then? and... By the way, thank god I
> won't have to ever play on your totally limp trax and emulate your totally
> sucky overly neurotic non-musical ideas ever again... oops, unless you need
> a solo"
> 
> thank god for virtual guitarist for filtering out the work I don't want any
> more as a guitarist. It really is the best guitarist in the world... : )
> 
> teddybut
> 
> PS when is "virtual composer" coming out? I think some people would really
> benefit from a program that has good song ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
> exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

PS: Slayer sounds very nice through something like Amplitube. Makes it sound
much more convincing.

> 
> As I recall, I think there was some kind of hit (crap) song (commercial
> sludge) that came out recently that used Virtual Guitarist. Teddy, your
> email is hilarious to me because I thought VG was the worst instrument ever
> to be released. I feel like Steinberg should be liable for punitive damages
> for releasing the worst (only a freakin' single-octive set of sampled chords
> (just what I love... prefab chord progressions of lifeless crapola)
> disguised as a VST instrument that doesn't even go from C3 to C4. Given
> that, the price is obscene. It's not even worth $50. Fortunately I was able
> to recover the expense on ebay. I was speechless after the 4-hour
> installation. I had been so excited and was completely floored by it's
> pathetic, uninspiring anti-nature.
> 
> So, consider this statement when I say that I really enjoy working with
> Slayer. It's not real life, but it is very useable and flexible for much of
> what I need. Hey, look Ma, I'm playing my own chords... whooopie! On a
> serious note, you can sustain a key until the feedback self-oscillates.
> Cool. Plus, by default the mod wheel becomes the note-bend-up (much like a
> real guitar's capability) and the pitch-bend wheel slides up and down the
> frets one octave either way. Great FX box too.

You can also feed VG MIDI on channel 15 (?) and get at the individual 
sample slices, which is how I use it. I don't want anyone else's 
guitar parts on my tracks! And I don't use loops for the same reason.

But really, you can use this argument against MIDI, loops, and 
everything we're using Logic for. Maybe editing bad drummers is 
unfairly putting good drummers out of work. Maybe the built-in 
notation is putting copyists out of work. Plug-ins are putting 
circuit board stuffers out of work. Where does it stop?

I sympathize, of course, but it's not fair to imply that anyone who 
uses VG is a wanker and a thief.



>  > DON'T SAMPLE OR EMULATE GUITAR PLAYERS!
>>
>>  Sascha
>  > (slowly getting unemployed)

Teddybut wrote:

>
>hahahaha....
>
>I was in Vienna recently and was talking to a (kind of lame but semi
>successful) producer there. He said "virtual guitarist is the best guitarist
>in the world". He had a smile on his face that indicated he was very proud
>of himself for using VG.
>
>I said, "that's great! congratulations on finding that *cracked* software.
>What happens when they update it with a new feature that pretends your music
>is good too, will you actually buy it then? and... By the way, thank god I
>won't have to ever play on your totally limp trax and emulate your totally
>sucky overly neurotic non-musical ideas ever again... oops, unless you need
>a solo"
>
>thank god for virtual guitarist for filtering out the work I don't want any
>more as a guitarist. It really is the best guitarist in the world... : )
>
>teddybut
>
>PS when is "virtual composer" coming out? I think some people would really
>benefit from a program that has good song ideas.

-- 
___
Nick Batzdorf
818/905-9101, fax -5434, cell 818/601-4874

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: teddybut <teddybut@...>
>> I was in Vienna recently and was talking to a (kind of lame but semi
>> successful) producer there. He said "virtual guitarist is the best
> guitarist
>> in the world". He had a smile on his face that indicated he was very proud
>> of himself for using VG.
>> 
>> I said, "that's great! congratulations on finding that *cracked* software.
> 
> How do know it was cracked?
> 
> Hector.

because he said it was and was proud to have spent no $ on it... the jerk.

teddybut

As an interesting aside to this discussion about musicians relying on some
one else to make sounds for them.............
I have a friend who works for a publishing company that deals with "Library"
type music. In other words pre recorded music for Documentaries or
background tracks for radio adds etc.
He was telling me about this great new talent he signed who had hundreds of
great tracks  recorded on his home computer.
They signed this guy and sold one of his CD's in to the market (actually
they give them away and collect on the airplay).
On a recent visit to another client(who actually works in radio) in another
state, this friend of mine was singing the praises of his new signing and
played a track of the CD. Imagine his surprise when this client said.....hey
that's my track.......and played a very similar sounding track from his own
CD including the EXACT backing track.
It turns out that both these guys use Acid and use those complete "backing
track" packages. So they simply get the whole backing track and play some
melodies over them and call the track their own.
Of course both these guys credibility just went down the drain. (although it
probably does not matter in that particular industry)

It raises some interesting questions about using commercial loops and even
presets from instruments.
How much do we "lean" on other peoples talents for our own completed tracks?
It's a big subject.
Phil Buckle.

> 
> <How much do we "lean" on other peoples talents for our own completed tracks?>
> 
> Some artists go as far as to make their own paint (programming) but most use
> store bought paint (presets).
> And then some artists just make collages (loops).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send a blank email to:
>    exs-users-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> For a list of places to get free samples please see:
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exs-users/links/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow... deep dude. I enjoyed your story. Personally, I don't feel bad about
presets. Would you consider an acoustic guitar to be a preset? Funny if
that's the case. That would suggest to me that you should invent your own
instrument so that it doesn't sound like a guitar. No... I think presets are
fine. It's when the ability to arrange notes musically isn't present that
creativity is called into question. If you're going to make a work of art,
you don't grab a painting someone else left half-finished and mass-produced.
You start from scratch. To go further with this metaphor, you do use paint
colors manufactured by paint companies (presets). BUT you are responsible
for every brush stroke (no prefab loops, etc.). That is art, as opposed
commercialism. If someone wants to pay me $5000 to have me write music to
sell a tube of toothpaste, I don't think I'd feel bad about throwing
together a few loops and backing sequences and a melody. But if I'm trying
to share my vision and effect change in the world, I'll do it without being
under the influence (of Acid for example... the program; not the drug).
Anyway, I think I've made my position clear. There's a time and a place for
commercial speed and ideals. If it's not art, who cares. If it is, I care.
Or perhaps it just constitutes a collaboration with someone whose ideas are
available to millions of other people. Things that make you go hmmmm. -Jer

> It raises some interesting questions about using commercial loops and even
> presets from instruments.
> How much do we "lean" on other peoples talents for our own completed tracks?
> It's a big subject.
> Phil Buckle.

> From: <HELP@...>
> 
> If you're going to make a work of art,
> you don't grab a painting someone else left half-finished and mass-produced.
> You start from scratch.

i know what u mean but think about it, andy warhol is one of our greatest
Artists and what are his finest moments? campbell soup and marilyn monroe
collages. i'm 99% sure he didn't make the campbell soup design in the first
place or shot the photo of marilyn.

anything can be cosiderd art. some of matisse's greatest pieces of art are
collages, cut out paper with colors he didn't paint. this is somewhat
similar to sampling in music, not the same but similar.

there are millions of examples besides these two.

peace, nassau

> I sympathize, of course, but it's not fair to imply that anyone who
> uses VG is a wanker and a thief.

Wanker and a thief? and then quoting me? I did not say ANYONE who uses VG is
a wanker OR a thief. I said this ONE guy I know who uses the CRACKED version
of it and makes BAD music is a wanker and a thief...

I welcome VG and others like it with open arms, as I said in my post which
you quoted, I don't have to go to anyone's studio and do totally stupid
things anymore because now there's a plug in that will do whatever anyone
wants. It's great... no sarcasm intended. I really am happy about it.

The really great thing is that I now will only get hired on gtr because
someone needs MY personality on their track. I used to get hired a lot to
play anonymously... (can you not be so exiting?) which I am good at, but am
bored by. So bring on the robot gtr players... I'll save my soul for other
things.

: )

teddybut

I guess when it comes down to it, art is very subjective. I'm not a Warhol
fan, but I can appreciate that other people are. I guess it's different for
everyone. Maybe what we should be discussing is the merit of originality
rather than what constitutes art...

> i know what u mean but think about it, andy warhol is one of our greatest
> Artists and what are his finest moments? campbell soup and marilyn monroe
> collages. i'm 99% sure he didn't make the campbell soup design in the first
> place or shot the photo of marilyn.
> 
> anything can be cosiderd art. some of matisse's greatest pieces of art are
> collages, cut out paper with colors he didn't paint. this is somewhat
> similar to sampling in music, not the same but similar.
> 
> there are millions of examples besides these two.
> 
> peace, nassau

--- In exs-users@yahoogroups.com, nichtlineareaudioproduktionen 
<niko_s@w...> wrote:
> 
> --->>>>Adjust Tempo by Object Size and Locators
>
Now this is extremely smart, thanks. But it sets the tempo to 
117.5979 - isn't that a strange tempo to have in a song? (!)
Looping is now perfect though.

> 
> Happy tuning;-)
> 
Thanks for the tip above, Logic contains so much stuff you have to 
take it in bit by bit as you experiment, I think.

(and EXS-folks please forgive me for asking this in the wrong place, 
I just immediately connected "loop problem" with "EXS" although this 
clearly has nothing to do with EXS  :-) )

Best regards,
Henrik Jensen