The Logic Off Topic list

>>Small numbers were welcomed by the arabs, until they decided to overwhelm
>>their hosts.
>okay!
>it *sure* is great to have the facts, then!
>ahhh, expert opinions.....
>*-0

I'm no mideast scholar, but I heard that Jews and Muslims lived together 
in peace for many centuries before 1948. In fact, there are still Jews in 
Syria, Iraq, and Iran to this day.


>while i can't deny that the internment camps in the usa were an atrocity in 
>their own right, 

I think atrocity is too strong of word. It was a moral wrong on a large 
scale. But no one was killed, tortured, starved, forced to work, etc - as 
what happened in POW camps in Asia, and what the death camps of the 
Nazi's. So we need some perspective here.

>i would say that there's no direct analogy between the 2 
>situations, esp. given the really, really long history of anti-semitic 
>sentiment & action.

The people who did the atrocities towards the Jews, the Nazis were killed 
or tried at Nuremburg as war criminals. Jews had lived happily in Europe 
for generations until the brief wave of Nazism took over. They could have 
gone back. 

You want a modern example - look at the Kosovars who went back to Kosovo 
- despite long held discrimination and mass killings.


>>>c) most of them had been hounded from place-to-place in the region for
>>>generations-upon-generations
>
>>They seemed to have fairly stable lives up until 1930s.
>huh? you and i clearly have *very* different  life-experiences.
>if you are as interested in all this as you *seem*, it might be edifying for 
>you to befriend some european & ex-european jewish, rom & armenian families 
>in order to get a sense of their 'internal' histories.

I've heard the testimony of various Euro-Jews on the History channel and 
the first hand account of some friends. This is not deny your knowledge 
or experience. 


>>>d) there was the promise of a 'new beginning', somewhere?
>
>>Because that somewhere was not theres to take or to be given.
>me? i can't really justify that, either, and i didn't --- but, again, i 
>don't 
>presume to judge based on my limited knowledge.
>my wife (who is iroquois) feels much the same about your forebears, who took 
>america lock, stock & barrell; i don't think she holds you personally 
>responsible, though..... 


The Iroquois have more right to New York City than the Jews do to Israel. 
If the Indians moved in, took over the skyscrapers and made all 
non-Indians leave their homes and live in sqalid camps and work as 
janitors and construction workers, how would New Yorkers take to their 
new station in life? With a lot less patience than the Palestinians have 
shown.


>>>there are *hundreds* of authoritative books and articles 
>>>available on this intensely complex subject --- if you're truly curious,
>>>there is a wealth of materials available for your edification.
>
>>Like that piece that Tiran sent around? Are these "authoritative" books
>>written to justify the unjustifiable?

There are many 'authoritative books' which try to find some excuse for 
Israel. From what I see, Jews are often a very liberal, enlightened 
people. They often supported black people and other downtrodden people. 
However, they seem to be in a huge collective denial about what they are 
doing to the Palestinians. Maybe Americans are like that a little about 
the Indians - the difference was that this was 150-300 years ago and 
something did and done. Israel is an ongoing daily outrage.