The Logic Off Topic list

After reading spectro@... (Spectro)'s mail, it made me really 
depressed. I freely admit that the US blunders at time - Vietnam was 
questionable, and supporting Israel and not clamping down on their antics 
gets us in a lot of trouble. George Bush is the worst possible advocate 
for America to the outside world. 

But frankly I consider every Spectro's anti-American points to be stupid 
at worst, and distorted reality at best. It made me realize, that much of 
the world is screwed up, like Hendrik for example. How can we hope to 
come to an understanding with such negative, stupid, and ignorant 
attitudes. There is something going on here. Its not factual or logicial.

At least Hendrik and Spectro are honest and frank in giving their 
opinions, so I don't blame them personally. I don't think there is a 
country in the world which has done as much for humanity as the United 
States of America. 

Did you know, for example, that the largest donor of aid to Afganistan, 
is the United States? We are helping them eat as they plot our 
destruction. 

>In a personal mail Joeri pointed out what he regarded as some 
>offensive remarks I made with regard to the ideas of Hendrik Jan 
>Veestra.  I strongly disagree with Hendrik but Joeri is right there 
>is no need for that or to lower the level of debate.  Even if for no 
>other reason than overly strong language makes the user (me) look 
>foolish.  My apologies to Hendrik.

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/24/01:

>It made me realize, that much of the world is screwed up, like 
>Hendrik for example. How can we hope to come to an understanding 
>with such negative, stupid, and ignorant attitudes.

... still wondering if this is a compliment or an insult...

One of the things that irks many people outside the US is the never 
ending arrogance of "always being right", always explaining all 
'mistakes' away, always supposing the US is *the* prime example of 
democracy, freedom & equality in the world.
And since the US is always right, anyone not agreeing with any of the 
US's viewpoints therefore must be negative, stupid and ignorant.

Indeed:
>There is something going on here. Its not factual or logicial.


puzzled,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

>One of the things that irks many people outside the US is the never 
>ending arrogance of "always being right", 

Hendrik, you always seem to be right. Hmmm makes me wonder.

I can tell you this, if you never do anything in life, and especially 
nothing difficult, its easy to never make a mistake. The more you do, the 
more chance for errors there are.

Since the US is so wrong about everything, why don't you tell us what we 
should be doing? Shall we just allow terrorists to grind our country to 
halt as they kill thousands and thousands?

Now, the FBI has grounded all crop dusting planes. They found that some 
terrorists were planning on using these planes to spray biological 
weapons. 

However, when I die from one of these attacks, I'll have a great sense of 
satisfaction that we didn't kill anyone guilty or not because Hendrik is 
so adamantly opposed to the death penalty. I will feel wonderful as I 
take my last breath, knowing that I could have lived, if we had gotten 
those terrorists but now I will die - but with high principles!

GAmoore@... wrote:

>After reading spectro@... (Spectro)'s mail, it made me really
>depressed. I freely admit that the US blunders at time - Vietnam was
>questionable, and supporting Israel and not clamping down on their antics
>gets us in a lot of trouble. George Bush is the worst possible advocate
>for America to the outside world.
But frankly I consider every Spectro's anti-American points to be stupid
>at worst, and distorted reality at best.

Firstly, please understand I was positing numerous examples in response
to a paragraph of  Dennis' that attempted to  suggest reasons why the US is
viewed  resentfully and how this could lead to its perception in some quarters
as being the 'Great Satan'.  Others suggest other reasons above and beyond
my own. Fine, they just all add fuel to the 'fire'. The  examples I  cited
while somewhat overstated perhaps (but all basically true) are not
my only points of view  regarding the US. Neither am I attempting in any
way to provide any justification to  the recent atrocities  either. I
personally
don't believe  there can be any.

>It made me realize, that much of
>the world is screwed up, like Hendrik for example. How can we hope to
>come to an understanding with such negative, stupid, and ignorant
>attitudes. There is something going on here. Its not factual or logicial.

I do not believe my attitudes to be stupid, twisted, nor ignorant. Far from it.
I also believe from what I  have read of his posts that Hendrik is far from
screwed up. It is after all about perspective. From a distance things look
much  different than they do up close. So please take my statements within
the context  for which they were intended.

S.

I do appreciate that Spectro and Hendrik are frank about thier opinions 
and they have every right to have them. There is no reason why they have 
to like or agree with the US. What is depressing is that their opiniions 
overlook so many facts, are based on half truths, or and distorted facts 
(e.g that the US became strong on the basis of slavery and this was the 
reason we left the racism conference recently). And the fact that so many 
non-Americans around the world might feel this way is depressing. How can 
you educate billions who are misinformed? 

What about all these good things we have done? What about all the money 
and aid we have spent? What about all the lives we have lost? What about 
all the things we did for other countries and for the world as a whole? 

Also numbers are a problem for many people. People say "oh 70,000 people 
died in an instant in  Hiroshima, how terrible!" - but divide 15,000,000 
Chinese by 70,000 and you get about 214 Chinese killed for every person 
at Hiroshima (many of whom were Korean slave laborers by the way). And 
then ask yourself, if you had to die, would you rather go out in an 
instant in an atomic blast, or would you like to be tied naked to a chair 
with your legs tied  wide open, then have 30 Japanese soldiers fuck you, 
then stab you to death with a knife and bleed to death in terrible pain 
and terrible shame? This happened to tens of thousands of Chinese women. 
Or would you like your head chopped off by a Japanese officer grinning 
and having fun? Or would you like to be tied with a group of 200 of your 
compatriots and doused with gasoline and set ablaze? Well, I'm sorry, but 
I would prefer the atomic bombing. 

Speaking of choices of this type, the thing that haunts me about the WTC 
bombing is seeing those people jump. A few minutes before they were going 
about their business in their place of work, the next minute they have to 
decide shall I be burned alive or jump from 1000 feet in the air. And 
they jump, and just like that their entire life is over. No time to say 
goodbye to their husbands or wives, or kids. No time to write a will. 
Take a chair, smash a window. Feel the cold wind blowing. Look down as if 
looking down from an airplane at the tiny cars below, and then jump, 
feeling the rush of wind in your hair as your body tumbles down, seeing 
the street getting closer and closer, as time stands still,  seeing the 
blur of the windows you're passing on the way down, and suddently BAM. 
You're gone and every thing you planned for, or saved for, or wanted to 
do, or wanted to write or compose is gone.

>Firstly, please understand I was positing numerous examples in response
>to a paragraph of  Dennis' that attempted to  suggest reasons why the US is
>viewed  resentfully and how this could lead to its perception in some 
>quarters
>as being the 'Great Satan'.

>What about all these good things we have done?
Nobody knows. Nobody cares.

>How can you educate billions who are misinformed?
Do more good things.

And even then ... probably ... nobody will know, nobody will care.

So ... do more good things.

And even THEN ... doubtless ... nobody will know, nobody will care.

(This is probably pretty much how 'good things' can be defined).

But ... why not do more good things anyway?


Also ... do not respond when people say foolish and provocative things just 
to get a rise.

Where I come from, we have a proverb. When you see two people arguing in 
the market place, one is said to be wise and the other a fool, how can 
anybody tell the difference?


Just do more good things.
It is surely the best counter-argument there is.
Just keep on quietly doing good things.
The number of good neighbours will steadily increase.


Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/24/01:

>I do appreciate that Spectro and Hendrik are frank about thier opinions
>and they have every right to have them. There is no reason why they have
>to like or agree with the US. What is depressing is that their opiniions
>overlook so many facts, are based on half truths, or and distorted facts

Oh, be glad.  When the wars are over, your american heroes will at 
least have one other task left to do: educate the ignorant 
west-european masses.  Just try to view it as an employment 
opportunity...


HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

>>I do appreciate that Spectro and Hendrik are frank about thier opinions
>>and they have every right to have them. There is no reason why they have
>>to like or agree with the US. What is depressing is that their opiniions
>>overlook so many facts, are based on half truths, or and distorted facts
>
>Oh, be glad.  When the wars are over, your american heroes will at 
>least have one other task left to do: educate the ignorant 
>west-european masses.  Just try to view it as an employment 
>opportunity...

You know, I could be wrong, but I can't recall a single Neatherlander 
hero. It would seem as though there should have been at least one who 
blew up a bridge or sabotaged a train track during the Nazi occupation, 
or maybe a heroic defense of some town, or something ... anything. As I 
remember the French maginot line of defense turned out useless because 
the Germans simply went around through the soft countries viertualy 
without resistance and attacked France from another angle. I guess it was 
easier to appease Hitler than stand up and fight for your freedom. Its 
easier to let English and American and Canadian boys to cross the ocean 
and die for you. Then from about 1950 to 1988 there was a real threat 
that the Soviet Union would roll their massively superior tanks through 
western Europe, but guess who was there as a deterrent? Then you can say 
how 'primitive' and 'war mongering' they are, while sitting there 
relaxing in freedom and prosperity they provided for you. 

And to mock the heroics of the American military while they are in harms 
way, makes me disgusted. I know this is turning ugly, and I have nothing 
more to say. I just expected a tiny bit more courtesy in a time like 
this. Maybe a few weeks of restraint before resuming the anti-American 
comments would have been nice.

GAMoore wrote:

>I know this is turning ugly,
Yes

>and I have nothing more to say.
No comment.

Be of good cheer both of you.

You do not represent all positions or peoples within the USA.
Hendrik Jan does not represent all positions or peoples outside it.

So ... be of good cheer both of you.

And all others.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hey, take a chill pill, GA. 

Less is Moore.

It seems to me that you are too eager to hate and blame other cultures' 
misdeeds, but much too willing to forgive our own.


In a message dated 9/24/01 12:00:48 PM, GAmoore@... writes:

 And the fact that so many

>
>non-Americans around the world might feel this way is depressing. How can
>
>you educate billions who are misinformed? 
>
>What about all these good things we have done? What about all the money
>
>and aid we have spent? What about all the lives we have lost? What about
>
>all the things we did for other countries and for the world as a whole?
>
>
>Also numbers are a problem for many people. People say "oh 70,000 people
>
>died in an instant in  Hiroshima, how terrible!"

>It seems to me that you are too eager to hate and blame other cultures' 
>misdeeds, but much too willing to forgive our own.

The only country I see being blamed is the US - and for something that 
happened 50 years ago. I don't see condemnation for a whole long list of 
things done by other countries.

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/24/01:

>You know, I could be wrong, but I can't recall a single Neatherlander
>hero.

Which only shows your level of ignorance.

>but guess who was there as a deterrent? Then you can say
>how 'primitive' and 'war mongering' they are,

Could you please quote me, saying words to that effect?

This is getting silly.


HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html