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Flaming List Members

Flaming List Members

2001-09-27 by GAmoore@aol.com

Hendrik wrote
>Ah, so the fact that I get flamed 
(and much more about being shredded)

I think Hendrik is a bit sensitive. I don't recall anyone saying he was 
stupid or using bad words in regard to him. 

>Could you please point out to me what exactly I said that earns me 
>this level of hatred?

Why is it taken to be "hatred" when someone simply asks to explain their 
moral judgements? If people feel complete freedom to say whatever they 
want and pronounce judgements, is it wrong to ask them to clarify their 
measuring system?

Frankly, I don't understand the anti-Americanism that was occuring in 
Europe even before the disaster. Sure, you don't like Bush, just as many 
Americans don't either. He put the Kyoto treating on hold - he didn't say 
he was in favor of global warming - it was negotiated before his term - 
and he didn't think it was fair and wanted to offer alternatives. He said 
a bunch of stupid things. But the level of hostility was disproportionate 
to all of that.

But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the 
world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in 
Afganistan, etc.

France nearly had terrorists destroy the Eiffle Tower, but luckily 
twarted that. However, they have laws that permit more of a 'police 
state' than the US civili liberties have allows up until now. If those 
terrorists would have been successful, how would French and Belgium and 
others in that region feel, if I, sitting here in the United States said 
"well the French are to blame for thier past colonialism in North Africa, 
Vietnam, and even for Napoleon's abuses". That would be stupid and 
insensitive. Wouldn't it? 

Well, turn that around and you will understand how we feel. And I think 
we have been quite civilized in not making any hateful attacks.

Re: [L-OT] Flaming List Members

2001-09-28 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/27/01:

>I think Hendrik is a bit sensitive. I don't recall anyone saying he was
>stupid or using bad words in regard to him.

Sure you have a short memory brother...

>  >Could you please point out to me what exactly I said that earns me
>>this level of hatred?
>
>Why is it taken to be "hatred" when someone simply asks to explain their
>moral judgements? If people feel complete freedom to say whatever they
>want and pronounce judgements, is it wrong to ask them to clarify their
>measuring system?

Let me quote just some of the things you seemed fit to say w.r.t. to 
me (btw, didn't take me more than 2 minutes to copy&paste them, so 
providing quotes really isn't that hard or time consuming):

--quote
You called Americans
"primitive" and "cowboys" and mocked our military, and spoke as if
terrible civilian deaths have already occurred in advance. Rather 
than being childish innocent or god like, your comments have been 
sarcastic and insulting in a flippant smart ass way.
--
But frankly I consider every Spectro's anti-American points to be stupid
at worst, and distorted reality at best. It made me realize, that much of
the world is screwed up, like Hendrik for example. How can we hope to
come to an understanding with such negative, stupid, and ignorant
attitudes.
--
But is your hatred for America so great you don't have much common sense left?
--
I'm sure Hendrik is very concerned that some of the innocent Afgans might
have gotten injured while they were ransacking and burning our embassy to
the ground yesterday.
--
>some< will be concerned about those bomb makers
--
Actually, very few people on this list (including the Netherlands
shredderman himself), take an even approach.
--unquote

... none of them supported by proper quotations or reasonable 
arguments.  Every accusation and insult has come out of the blue, and 
no proof of your opinionated view has been provided.
At the same time I've tried to remain calm and reasonable, only to 
get more abuse thrown at me.  And remember, the above are just some 
quotes of _your_ mails.  I won't even bother to add the stuff some 
others wrote.

And then you call me "a bit sensitive"?  It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I wrote a message that to many americans and non-americans alike made 
sense.  You and some others then launched on a sort of hate campaign. 
Now who's being a bit sensitive?  Again, it would be funny if it 
wasn't so sad.

I'm not asking for excuses or apologies.  That would clearly be 
pointless.  I'm only asking for a single quotation of anything I've 
written that justifies the rage of some list-members.  I still think 
that's a reasonable request

>Frankly, I don't understand the anti-Americanism that was occuring in
>Europe even before the disaster.

Me neither.

>But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the
>world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in
>Afganistan, etc.

Never denied that, or implied otherwise.


Oh, BTW, it occurs to me that once more you've failed to provide any 
quotations of mine that could explain your misguided image of me as 
being a US-hater.  That doesn't amaze me.  However, it does not speak 
on your behalf to go about accusing a list-member of irrational 
hatred for your country, and then, upon repeated request, failing to 
provide even a single shred of evidence supporting your claim.  It 
can't be a matter of 'lack of time', since you seem to have plenty of 
time to write multiple messages per day.

Once more, and for the last time, I kindly ask you to quote me once, 
saying words to the effect that all of the US sucks, or all Americans 
are biggots, or whatever else it is I seem to have said that supports 
yuor strange ideas about me.  Obviously ignoring such a simply 
request for the third time, could only lead me to conclude that you 
simple _have_ no case.

Isn't providing evidence before convicting someone the basis for the 
US legal system?


regards,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

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