The Logic Off Topic list

>
>
>Frankly, I don't understand the anti-Americanism that was occuring in 
>Europe even before the disaster. Sure, you don't like Bush, just as many 
>Americans don't either. He put the Kyoto treating on hold - he didn't say 
>he was in favor of global warming - it was negotiated before his term - 
>and he didn't think it was fair and wanted to offer alternatives. He said 
>a bunch of stupid things. But the level of hostility was disproportionate 
>to all of that.
>
There is a misunderstanding imo: there is no real anti-americanism in 
Europe. We're all with the US. We do have different opinions on many 
issues though, which we like to express. Disagreeing doesn't mean 
hostility. If US people on this list feel "attacked", then it's probably 
because some Europeans are not native english which means it's more 
difficult for us to express ourselves in the correct way.

PS: Let's not start discussing whether it's hostility or disagreements, 
I just give you my point of view as I perceive it.

>But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the 
>world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in 
>Afganistan, etc.
>
Sad but true. :-(

>However, they have laws that permit more of a 'police 
>state' than the US civili liberties have allows up until now.
>
The French intelligence works in a different way as France had to deal 
with a lot of terrorism in the past. I don't think France is more of a 
police state though.

>If those 
>terrorists would have been successful, how would French and Belgium and 
>others in that region feel, if I, sitting here in the United States said 
>"well the French are to blame for thier past colonialism in North Africa, 
>Vietnam, and even for Napoleon's abuses". That would be stupid and 
>insensitive. Wouldn't it? 
>
It would be correct. I personally wouldn't mind if you said so. I do not 
agree with politics of many countries, including my own. Even today 
there's a trial about  a matter where Belgian diplomats ordered the 
killing of the opposition leaders in our ex-colonies (Congo etc). Many 
European countries have to deal with terrorism: Northern-Ireland, France 
(GIA attacks etc) etc etc we mostly created the mess ourselves.

I think it's human mankind that's too egoistic. Every country uses 
diplomatics for his own goals.


-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

In a message dated 9/28/01 12:22:39 AM, h@... writes:

>Oh, BTW, it occurs to me that once more you've failed to provide any 
>quotations of mine that could explain your misguided image of me as 
>being a US-hater.  That doesn't amaze me.  ...upon repeated request, failing 
to 
>provide even a single shred of evidence supporting your claim.  

I hate to tell you this, Hendrik, but I actually have a life to lead, other 
than on this list. And I am quite busy. I don't mind writing messages because 
I think I have something to contribute, or a different perspective that will 
at least cause people to think twice about things. However, I don't the value 
in a mano-a-mano intellectual battle with you. Just because I don't spend 
time researching all the back messages doesn't mean that I am wrong, or that 
those don't exist. I don't feel the need to prove things to you or to others. 
I was hoping you had enough intelligence and self-repect to carefully 
consider my comments, instead of attacking and debating each point like this 
were a high school debating team contest. 

I did say that the big list of anti-American things Spectro said was stupid, 
and depressing that so many twisted half truths could be taken as valid. I 
lamented that so much of the world would be so ill-informed  to which you 
made a number of flippant, mocking responses. I have already repeatedly 
respected  your right, and his, to your views, even if they are 
anti-American, ill-formed,  or biased. - or even if not.

I wrote:

>I'm only asking for a single quotation of anything I've written that 
>justifies the rage of some list-members.  I still think that's a 
>reasonable request.

GAmoore wrote:

>Just because I don't spend time researching all the back messages 
>doesn't mean that I am wrong, or that those don't exist. I don't 
>feel the need to prove things to you or to others.

I rest my case.


-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Today one week ago I sent a letter which has since then caused a 
turmoil beyond belief.  Now, one week later, this will be my last 
letter in this thread.  All has been said and everything has been 
rehashed multiple times...

My annoyance with mr. Bush's utterings, combined with a call for 
reason and good sense, apparently has been enough to spark a fire of 
unforeseen proportions.
Some thought it suitable to accuse me of America-hatred in its purest 
form.  Some thought it appropriate to call me names, imply 
terrorist-sympathies on my part, et cetera.

Repeated requests to several such posters to provide even a single 
quote justifying their rage and outrageous accusations have all gone 
unanswered.

During this entire discussion I've tried to remain calm and 
reasonable.  I've tried not to get angry (which _has_ been hard at 
times).  However, my impression is that 'remaining reasonable' maybe 
only has put more fuel on the fire.  Maybe I should have lashed out, 
maybe I should have tried to torch others as some tried to torch me. 
But... I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that's the way grown-up 
responsible global citizens should go about defending their affairs. 
Maybe instead I should have refrained from participating in this 
discussion far earlier.  I think that's true.  I'm still human enough 
however to find it difficult to let false and bizarre accusations go 
unchallenged.  A weakness?  Yes, probably.

Fortunately the number of people writing things in my favour, or 
outright supporting me, both privately and publicly, has far exceeded 
those accusing me of all sorts of horrible qualities.  This still is 
true if I only count the American citizens among them.  I'd like to 
thank all those for their kind, uplifting, supportive, and sometimes 
almost embarrassing words.  It's good to know that sensibility and 
reason still are common enough in this world.

It's been an interesting discussion.  If we, a small 400-people 
group, can't even remain calm and reasonable in our relatively safe 
internet-environment -- sitting at home behind our own computer, a 
cup of coffee at hand -- then how can we expect the world at large to 
act in a civilised, reasonable way?
Maybe then it's no wonder one people murders another, soldiers rape 
mothers & daughters, fanatics get to dominate innocent civilians, 
fundamentalists find willing ears when calling for war, extremists 
plant car-bomb after car-bomb and terrorists commit all kinds of 
atrocious acts.

We all share a responsibility for all the anger and hatred in the 
world.  Our anger is the anger of the world.  Even though I tried to 
remain calm during this discussion, I _have_ (naturally?) been angry 
at times.  And so I too share in this same responsibility.  I am 
sorry for that.

As I said: it has been an interesting discussion, but also a sobering 
one.  It makes you realise how thin the veneer of civilisation really 
is, and how hard we all have to work in order to avoid its erosion. 
I did my best, and probably others did the same.  And if I failed, 
then it's _my_ karma I have to deal with.  If indeed I failed, I'm 
sorry and I once more apologise for any harm done.

Maybe some will find all the more reason to flame me or hate me in 
the above letter.  I can't help it.  I try to be honest, I have no 
hidden agenda, and there's nothing to read between the lines.  I 
don't think I'm an aggressor, but I don't consider myself a victim 
either.  I just did my best, and if doing your best doesn't suffice, 
well, then so be it.  At least I tried.


To all of you, "friend or foe": live well & prosper,
Hendrik Jan

-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

In a message dated 9/29/01 2:16:30 AM, h@... writes:

>>I'm only asking for a single quotation of anything I've written that 
>>justifies the rage of some list-members.  I still think that's a 
>>reasonable request.
>
>GAmoore wrote:
>
>>Just because I don't spend time researching all the back messages 
>>doesn't mean that I am wrong, or that those don't exist. I don't 
>>feel the need to prove things to you or to others.
>
>I rest my case.

I didn't know we were in a court of law. I would like to add that nothing you 
said is worthy of 'rage' but I don't think you've been treated to any rage. 
You are someone with clever insights at times, with smartass insensitive 
comments at other times, someone who is convinced on his own cleverness but 
never seems to back down from his statements, in short someone who doesn't 
learn or adapt - but on the other hand, a very sensitive individual. We have 
a saying "If you're going to dish it out, you better be prepared to eat if 
yourself." Several people, including myself, have gotten upset with your 
comments, but I would never characterize your comments nor those comments as 
rage. You're getting a spirited reaction to your comments, which is what you 
wanted, right?

There is evidently some large Viking epic work that details how a small 
dispute in Iceland eventually engulfed all of North Europe. Despite many 
peace conferences and attempts to quell the violence, it kept continuing. 
Toward and end of a war, the losers feel that fighting on is better than 
the consequences of giving up, and the winning party is outraged that the 
losers won't capitulate and strike even harder. We spoke of the Japanese 
refusal to surrender despite increasingly dire odds, but look at the 
Germans - the Russians were almost at Hitlers Bunker before he committed 
suicide. And the allies decided to pummel the axis until it didn't matter 
whether they surrendered or now. There are many wars like this. The 
Vikings came to believe that hostility has a logic and life of its own.

And so it is with these arguments. No one seems to change their mind 
about anything. It seems no matter what your view of the world, its the 
rare individual who will actually change his/her mind about anything 
presented with facts to the contrary.

People make strong statements of "obvious" veracity which actually 
loosely based on fact, largely based on opinion, and insensitive - then 
later self-righteously claim innocence, and make apologies which are not 
apologies but further justifications, and succeed in only keeping the 
embers burning longer rather than letting the matter die out. But this 
whole cycle is pointless, isn't it?

GA Moore wrote:

>And so it is with these arguments. No one seems to change their mind
>about anything.
Yes.

>And so it is with these arguments. No one seems to change their mind
>about anything.
No.

>its the
>rare individual who will actually change his/her mind about anything
Yes.

>its the
>rare individual who will actually change his/her mind about anything
No.

>its the
>rare individual who will actually change his/her mind about anything
Common are the ones who point to themselves.

>its the
>rare individual who will actually change his/her mind about anything
Rare are the ones who point to others.

>But this whole cycle is pointless, isn't it?
Yes.

>But this whole cycle is pointless, isn't it?
No.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Hi OT list,

I got this annoncement from PSP about their new plug-in. I already own the Mix Pack and Stereo Pack, which are superb IMO. Have anyone checked out the new VintageWarmer to make a comparison?

Regards

Per Boysen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Being a fan of their software (which I still can't understand how 
it's so cheap and sounds that good) and their service, I couldn't 
wait to get a taste of the VintageWarmer.
I love it!!!
The GUI alone makes it worth it.
But the sound was a real treat! I noticed right away that it gave the 
music a much needed boost in headroom. Everything sounded like it had 
much more air to breathe in and was less constrained (well i guess 
that's what real analog does!)   
Even if it isn't a 100% accurate emulation, it sounds 100% better 
then any previous saturation plug-ins I've heard before imo (and I've 
heard a lot - all which I've deemed unusable for the most part).
I can't wait for the full release in a couple of weeks! 

Hey Joeri, maybe a group buy might be possible???hint hint! doesn't 
really matter, either way, it's mine!

btw the "Drive" on it is also great.