The Logic Off Topic list

> Frankly, I don't understand the anti-Americanism that was occuring in
> Europe even before the disaster. Sure, you don't like Bush, just as many
> Americans don't either. He put the Kyoto treating on hold - he didn't say
> he was in favor of global warming - it was negotiated before his term -
> and he didn't think it was fair and wanted to offer alternatives. He said
> a bunch of stupid things. But the level of hostility was disproportionate
> to all of that.

you seem to have this perception that America is hated or treated with
hostility by Europeans etc. I dont feel this is true of the majority of
Europeans against the majority of Americans but politically and individually
Americans have a strident voice and dont mind engaging their mouths before
putting their brains in gear...

> But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the
> world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in
> Afganistan, etc.

Sorry GA but this is cynicism, its not smart and its not nice. Most normal
people manage to overcome such things when they leave junior school. In
essence you are saying that America is justified in doing anything because
other nations get away with doing far worse.

> France nearly had terrorists destroy the Eiffle Tower, but luckily
> twarted that. However, they have laws that permit more of a 'police
> state' than the US civili liberties have allows up until now. If those
> terrorists would have been successful, how would French and Belgium and
> others in that region feel, if I, sitting here in the United States said
> "well the French are to blame for thier past colonialism in North Africa,
> Vietnam, and even for Napoleon's abuses". That would be stupid and
> insensitive. Wouldn't it?

if your observations were informed, sensitive to the situation and pierced
to the heart of the matter - no.

I think you should stop posting to this group for a few hours, take some
time out to reflect on your inner turmoil and ask someone for some help with
your emotions. I dont know if anyone you knew personally or even friends of
friends were injured or killed on Sept 11 but I can understand that
Americans are frightened and confused right now as all in the Western (so
called first) world are. All of us have to examine our lifestyles and learn
how they impact on our neighbours in this small world. Like they say - 'If
you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem' , we all have
to accept that that is true and start becoming proactive in making this
world a better place to live in. Vote for the right people, pressurise
politicians, educate yourself, your firends and most important your
children. If we start now then maybe our great-great-great-great
grandchildren might be able to live in a world where there is less
suffering.

In short GA we are all your brothers and we feel your pain

peace
--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylor's Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
--
e-mail : mark@...
phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
web    : http://www.enduser.ie
--

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark at Enduser <mark@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] Flaming List Members : GA Moore


> > But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the
> > world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in
> > Afganistan, etc.
>
> Sorry GA but this is cynicism, its not smart and its not nice. Most normal
> people manage to overcome such things when they leave junior school. In
> essence you are saying that America is justified in doing anything because
> other nations get away with doing far worse.
>

No, I don't think GA was saying that, he was saying that America is
disproportionately blamed for things while other countries seem to get off
light or are somehow perceived as more justified (or less unjustified in
their actions).  At least that's my take and I think he even said something
to that effect in another message.

> I think you should stop posting to this group for a few hours, take some
> time out to reflect on your inner turmoil and ask someone for some help
with
> your emotions. I dont know if anyone you knew personally or even friends
of

Why aren't you addressing the same message to Hendrik or others equally
vehement or emotional?  First, I don't think that either GA or Hendrik need
that, though they both get pretty hyped up, and second, there are others way
further off the edge who should get that advice.  Anyway, as blunt and
sometimes emotional as GA may get, I don't think he should be singled out
for this sort of analysis - if so, that should probably be done off-list
(though of course I've been guilty of posting a thing here or there that
would be better served off-list, so please note I'm not saying I'd think to
do so before shooting my mouth off, either).

YOU ARE A REAL FAIRY...you gave it away by spelling friends "firends"...which is what all the gay guys on Fire Island call each other.  You should suffer with a gun barrell to your brain, my faggot-one!  Take your queer brothers and "feel" someone elses pain.
It's typical that we should vote for "the right people"...those are the ones that will push for our sweet gay rights and gag government subsidies.  How sweet!  How touching that you "feel"...and your friends "feel"...just backup to that hole in the wall and the guy on the other side will make you feel even more "loving" to all the retards in the world.  Are you a consultant to the Irish Gay Movement? Do the hecklers make you nervous...I'm sure your children (?) don't understand all the violence in the world.  Tch, Tch!
-Grandaddy Vet

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark at Enduser 
  To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 3:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [L-OT] Flaming List Members : GA Moore


  > Frankly, I don't understand the anti-Americanism that was occuring in
  > Europe even before the disaster. Sure, you don't like Bush, just as many
  > Americans don't either. He put the Kyoto treating on hold - he didn't say
  > he was in favor of global warming - it was negotiated before his term -
  > and he didn't think it was fair and wanted to offer alternatives. He said
  > a bunch of stupid things. But the level of hostility was disproportionate
  > to all of that.

  you seem to have this perception that America is hated or treated with
  hostility by Europeans etc. I dont feel this is true of the majority of
  Europeans against the majority of Americans but politically and individually
  Americans have a strident voice and dont mind engaging their mouths before
  putting their brains in gear...

  > But by objective standards, there are far worse things going on in the
  > world today - in Chechnya, in China, in Israel/Occupied lands, in
  > Afganistan, etc.

  Sorry GA but this is cynicism, its not smart and its not nice. Most normal
  people manage to overcome such things when they leave junior school. In
  essence you are saying that America is justified in doing anything because
  other nations get away with doing far worse.

  > France nearly had terrorists destroy the Eiffle Tower, but luckily
  > twarted that. However, they have laws that permit more of a 'police
  > state' than the US civili liberties have allows up until now. If those
  > terrorists would have been successful, how would French and Belgium and
  > others in that region feel, if I, sitting here in the United States said
  > "well the French are to blame for thier past colonialism in North Africa,
  > Vietnam, and even for Napoleon's abuses". That would be stupid and
  > insensitive. Wouldn't it?

  if your observations were informed, sensitive to the situation and pierced
  to the heart of the matter - no.

  I think you should stop posting to this group for a few hours, take some
  time out to reflect on your inner turmoil and ask someone for some help with
  your emotions. I dont know if anyone you knew personally or even friends of
  friends were injured or killed on Sept 11 but I can understand that
  Americans are frightened and confused right now as all in the Western (so
  called first) world are. All of us have to examine our lifestyles and learn
  how they impact on our neighbours in this small world. Like they say - 'If
  you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem' , we all have
  to accept that that is true and start becoming proactive in making this
  world a better place to live in. Vote for the right people, pressurise
  politicians, educate yourself, your firends and most important your
  children. If we start now then maybe our great-great-great-great
  grandchildren might be able to live in a world where there is less
  suffering.

  In short GA we are all your brothers and we feel your pain

  peace
  --
  Mark Lennox
  Consultant

  ENDUSER
  Guinness Enterprise Centre
  Taylor's Lane
  Dublin 8
  Ireland
  --
  e-mail : mark@...
  phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
  direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
  fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
  web    : http://www.enduser.ie
  --


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This beautiful little message was written by the esteemed Mike Cover. I 
thought it was toward me at first by the title, but it looks like its 
directed toward Mark Enduser. Nonetheless its a witty and tenderly 
heartfelt message, based on the fact that someone mistyped the word 
"friends" by interchanging the i and r. Based on that slip of the finger, 
Mr. Cover, if he is not under cover, was able to extrapolate one's sexual 
orientation and had some clever words of advice.

>YOU ARE A REAL FAIRY...you gave it away by spelling friends 
>"firends"...which is what all the gay guys on Fire Island call each other. 
> You should suffer with a gun barrell to your brain, my faggot-one!  Take 
>your queer brothers and "feel" someone elses pain.
>It's typical that we should vote for "the right people"...those are the 
>ones that will push for our sweet gay rights and gag government subsidies. 
> How sweet!  How touching that you "feel"...and your friends "feel"...just 
>backup to that hole in the wall and the guy on the other side will make 
>you feel even more "loving" to all the retards in the world.  Are you a 
>consultant to the Irish Gay Movement? Do the hecklers make you 
>nervous...I'm sure your children (?) don't understand all the violence in 
>the world.  Tch, Tch!
>-Grandaddy Vet

>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Mark at Enduser 
...

>  your emotions. I dont know if anyone you knew personally or even friends of
>  friends were injured or killed on Sept 11 but I can understand that
>  Americans are frightened and confused right now as all in the Western (so
>  called first) world are. All of us have to examine our lifestyles and learn
>  how they impact on our neighbours in this small world. Like they say - 'If
>  you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem' , we all have
>  to accept that that is true and start becoming proactive in making this
>  world a better place to live in. Vote for the right people, pressurise
>  politicians, educate yourself, your firends and most important your
>  children. If we start now then maybe our great-great-great-great
>  grandchildren might be able to live in a world where there is less
>  suffering.

"Mike Cover" <vista500@m...> wrote:
> YOU ARE A REAL FAIRY...you gave it away by spelling friends 
>"firends"... which is what all the gay guys on Fire Island call each 
>other.  You should suffer with a gun barrell to your brain, my 
>faggot-one!  Take your queer brothers and "feel" someone elses pain.
>
---------
Hi,

Although I'd support the banning of Mike Cover on the strength of the 
above, isn't there a problem of consistency here?

If a white Anglo-Saxon, male, Christian, indicated that the following 
propositions were under any circumstances reasonable, he'd be in 
trouble:

*Male homosexuals should be subject to physical punishments such as 100 
lashes, or even death.

*Married men who have engaged in homosexual acts should be executed.

*Men are allowed to beat their wives.

*Women's memory's are inferior to men's, and can't be trusted with 
certain legal matters.

*Someone who has accepted the Prophet but later rejected him (an 
infidel) should be executed.

*Someone who defames the religion should be executed.

*Thieves should have their hands amputated.


These of course, are all Islamic laws. 

I would consider their application unacceptable and morally repugnant 
under any circumstances.

But what about the brutality of the Old Testament? I hear you cry. 

The OT is a collection of stories, containing inconstancies, that are 
impossible to read outside of an historical or even mythical context, 
and is believed to be infallible, literal truth only by fundamentalist 
Christians. And regardless, the brutalities therein, were largely 
contradicted, or even abrogated by the non violent (in comparison to 
Muhammed) example of the Christians' Prophet, Jesus - "he who is 
without sin cast the first stone", "Turning the other cheek", etc.

The Quran on the other hand provides a clear set of rules, and is 
believed by ALL Muslims to be the infallible word of Allah. Not one 
word is negotiable. The accepted aHadith are seen pretty much as being 
just as Holy and essential. 

Those are the principles on which an Islamic society should be run.

My question is, therefore, why aren't Muslims banned?

jon_jabc@... wrote:

>*Male homosexuals should be subject to physical punishments such as 100
>lashes, or even death.
>
>*Married men who have engaged in homosexual acts should be executed.
>
>*Men are allowed to beat their wives.
>
>*Women's memory's are inferior to men's, and can't be trusted with
>certain legal matters.
>
>*Someone who has accepted the Prophet but later rejected him (an
>infidel) should be executed.
>
>*Someone who defames the religion should be executed.
>
>*Thieves should have their hands amputated.
>
>
>These of course, are all Islamic laws.

No comment.


>I would consider their application unacceptable and morally repugnant
>under any circumstances.

No comment.


>But what about the brutality of the Old Testament? I hear you cry.

No comment.


>The OT is a collection of stories, containing inconstancies, that are
>impossible to read outside of an historical or even mythical context,
>and is believed to be infallible, literal truth only by fundamentalist
>Christians. And regardless, the brutalities therein, were largely
>contradicted, or even abrogated by the non violent (in comparison to
>Muhammed) example of the Christians' Prophet, Jesus - "he who is
>without sin cast the first stone", "Turning the other cheek", etc.

No comment.


>The Quran on the other hand provides a clear set of rules, and is
>believed by ALL Muslims to be the infallible word of Allah. Not one
>word is negotiable. The accepted aHadith are seen pretty much as being
>just as Holy and essential.

No comment.


>Those are the principles on which an Islamic society should be run.

No comment.


>My question is, therefore, why aren't Muslims banned?

Hmmmm. Let's see .........

The LUG-OT waited until Mike Cover did something to which many in the 
community objected. He was spoken to privately by several on the list; and 
also probably by the Moderator.

Mike Cover's behaviour did not change for he again posted something to 
which many in the community objected. So ... he was banned.

Simple cause and effect as far as I can see. Actual deeds done matched by 
actual consequences.


When anybody, irrespective of colour, race, creed and the like, does 
something to which many in the community object, then doubtless they will 
be spoken to privately by people on the list; and also probably by the 
Moderator. If they take no notice of this, then probably they will be banned.


Tell you what. Why don't YOU try this system out. Irrespective of your 
gender, race, creed or whatever, why don't you just go right on ahead and 
ACTUALLY POST SOMETHING utterly objectionable. And then sit back and see 
what happens. Irrespective of gender, race, creed or whatever.

Doubtless, when a Muslim is banned it will not be because of something they 
MIGHT on speculation do because of some code of ethics that others might in 
principle find objectionable. If a Muslim is banned then it will be because 
of something that they actually DID on this list. Irrespective of gender, 
race, creed or whatever.

Or ... maybe I'm missing something somewhere. Come to that ... you have not 
a clue what my own personal beliefs are; and you also have not a clue how I 
might choose to act either for or against those beliefs. So ... why not ban 
me forthwith. Just in case. You never know, after all, what I might say or 
do next.

Irrespective of gender, race, creed or whatever.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

The reasons are simple.  Most Muslims don't believe these things in
isolation in the manner you posted them.    They also aren't posting these
things here so we aren't faced with the issue.  And moreover, they aren't
lambasting people and threatening them with these things.

That's why.  I hope I have helped you understand the difference.

----- Original Message -----

From: <jon_jabc@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 4:47 PM
Subject: [L-OT] Banning, consistency.


> "Mike Cover" <vista500@m...> wrote:
> > YOU ARE A REAL FAIRY...you gave it away by spelling friends
> >"firends"... which is what all the gay guys on Fire Island call each
> >other.  You should suffer with a gun barrell to your brain, my
> >faggot-one!  Take your queer brothers and "feel" someone elses pain.
> >
> ---------
> Hi,
>
> Although I'd support the banning of Mike Cover on the strength of the
> above, isn't there a problem of consistency here?
>
> If a white Anglo-Saxon, male, Christian, indicated that the following
> propositions were under any circumstances reasonable, he'd be in
> trouble:
>
> *Male homosexuals should be subject to physical punishments such as 100
> lashes, or even death.
>
> *Married men who have engaged in homosexual acts should be executed.
>
> *Men are allowed to beat their wives.
>
> *Women's memory's are inferior to men's, and can't be trusted with
> certain legal matters.
>
> *Someone who has accepted the Prophet but later rejected him (an
> infidel) should be executed.
>
> *Someone who defames the religion should be executed.
>
> *Thieves should have their hands amputated.
>
>
> These of course, are all Islamic laws.
>
> I would consider their application unacceptable and morally repugnant
> under any circumstances.
>
> But what about the brutality of the Old Testament? I hear you cry.
>
> The OT is a collection of stories, containing inconstancies, that are
> impossible to read outside of an historical or even mythical context,
> and is believed to be infallible, literal truth only by fundamentalist
> Christians. And regardless, the brutalities therein, were largely
> contradicted, or even abrogated by the non violent (in comparison to
> Muhammed) example of the Christians' Prophet, Jesus - "he who is
> without sin cast the first stone", "Turning the other cheek", etc.
>
> The Quran on the other hand provides a clear set of rules, and is
> believed by ALL Muslims to be the infallible word of Allah. Not one
> word is negotiable. The accepted aHadith are seen pretty much as being
> just as Holy and essential.
>
> Those are the principles on which an Islamic society should be run.
>
> My question is, therefore, why aren't Muslims banned?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

So is female homosexuality alright then?

>>*Male homosexuals should be subject to physical punishments such as 100
>>lashes, or even death.

At 11:10 AM -0400 10/5/01, GAmoore@... wrote:
>  >>*Male homosexuals should be subject to physical punishments such as 100
>>>lashes, or even death.



>So is female homosexuality alright then?

Well, when you've got a 90 year old guy with a harem of 20 year olds 
who can't even leave the house....
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

If all that you posted about Islamic law is true, then why do i hear 
stories of open Homosexuality, and even homosexual prostitution among 
men in the taliban ruled Afganistan. Are these western lies 
attempting to malign the Islamic world???.I don't know either way.
Next, there are many things done by people claiming to be 
fundamentalist Christians that i consider to be extreme, and also 
against Biblical teaching. One can believe the old testament accounts 
as fact, without beleiving that those laws should be practiced today, 
with biblical support for believing this way.

Maak Bow