The Logic Off Topic list

This is very frustrating to deal with people who don't see this.  It is like
pointing out color swatches to a blind man.  So I am going to show you this.
 Just kind of try and follow it and you will see.

> Why? The development time that went into the feature set of 4.0 has not
depreciated. 
> In fact it has *appreciated* because of all the added features and
functionality that 
> was impliemented in the the various 4.x subreleases for no additional charge.

If you go out now and buy Logic Audio v4, you can still buy it for $479.00
over the counter, then purchase the v5 upgrade for 150.00.  You are now
paying 629.00.  Now you can still go out and find LA v5 for 699.00.  That is
a 70.00 dollar difference.  So therefore, a slight advantage to the new
user, because they saved 70.00.   However, if you take the value of 699.00
for v5 and then minus the value of version 4 over the counter, it now totals
to a 220.00 difference.  So, in effect, the pricing has gone down for LA v4.
 In other words, IT is considered *Antiquated Technology* that is why it is
cheaper to buy over the counter.

Now if you take the new price of today 949.00 (999.00 MSRP) for version 5
and deduct the amount of version 4 at 479.00.  That is a 470.00 dollar
difference.  Again, showing that version 4 is now priced as *Antiquated
Technology*.  So, your logic is flawed.  It has not *appreciated* it has
effectively *depreciated* in value of current market place.  The truth
being, it is v4 and sitting right next to it is v5.

Now in using your method of thinking, since the price of v5 just went up
from 699.00 to 999.00, then effectively what you are saying is, your upgrade
from v4 to v5 should be 199.00.  The cost of an upgrade is usually roughly
28% of the over the counter price.  So, in effect my upgrade is 399.00. 
Yes, but then you should be paying 199.00 and not 150.00.  Here is why...

1.  Your current upgrade path from v4 to v5 automatically is, 699 x 28% =
195.72, then round up and you have 199.00. 

2.  Yet somehow they equated an 25% break in price to you.  So, your price
is now 199 - 49.75 = 150.00 rounding up.  But then this is factoring in the
699.00 price.  Or they just automatically just charged you 25%, but yet have
failed to pass that onto me.

3.  Now if your upgrade price is based on the, 999.00 MSRP.  Then 999.00 x
28 percent is now 279.72, yet you receive the 25% markdown.  So in effect
that is 279 - 69.75 = 209.75.  So, in effect round down and you have 199.00.
 So you should be paying 199.00 for version 5 upgrade. ROTFLMAO!

3. So, in effect, your current upgrade to version 5 is based on the 699.00
price, and then reduced 25%.  This not only to you, but everyone else who
has version 4.  Or this number is based more closely to 699 x 22% = 153.78
then round down to 150.00...to which I am not getting any advantage of that
pricing either.

4.  So now if my upgrade is in fact based on the 699.00 (which it isn't).  
Then, 479 x 28 percent = 134.12. Then add in 195.72 which comes out to
329.00.  Without the 25% discount is still cheaper than 399.00 right? Yet
take into account the 25% discount on the price, then that does put my cost
into the vicinity of 246.75, then round up 249.00. 

5.  Now if they are giving you a rough 25% break on just the upgrade price,
which is roughly 50.00, then my price could in fact be 329 - 50 = 279.00. 
Now round up or down, doesn't matter, but it is still obvious to the fact
that it is no where near the cost of 399.00.  LOL.

6.  AGAIN,  if you were to upgrade based on the 999.00 value.  Then that
would be 999.00 x 28 percent which is now 279.72 - 69.75 (-25%) = 199.00. 
<----your price.  :-P

7.  Now, for me, at 999.00 x 28 percent is now 279.72 which than if you add
in the amount of 134.12.  Than that is 413.24.  Round down, is 399.00. 
<-----this is my price.  :-( 
No discount, and yet basing my pricing around 999.00 (MSRP) at 28%.

Yet, now cut me some slack and give me the 25% break, like they gave you at
the 699.00 value of the upgrade!  399 - 99.75 = 299.00.   Which to me is
still better, when you consider all the other cost I have to absorb in
upgrading.  Right.  The cost of tax, shipping, dongle juggling and
insurance.  

8.  Now since you are NOT paying the 28% of the 999.00 price of the upgrade,
then why should I?  Right, because if not, then everyone here has to pay
199.00, otherwise no fair, in fair market blue book value.

So the question to you my friend is, where does this extra 100.00 dollars
coming from?  Short of being punished for not upgrading.  Now in looking at
it this way, then one starts to see that maybe both of us should get the 25%
break, right.  Or why am I paying the full 28% based on the new 999.00
(MSRP) and you get to pay based on the 699.00 (MSRP)?  

Because I don't think you want to pay 199.00 at this point.  What I am
privvy to my friend is fair market value...not some *antiquated* two year
old price.  Or some funky, moral abstract, guilt trip and sudo obligation
ideology of me considering subreleases as some way of making me think Emagic
is some noble entity passing down gifts of ambrosia from the sky.  No, you
get the upper hand value of the 699.00 (MSRP), and I get the underhand value
increased based on the 999.00 (MSRP).  No way...not gonna happen.

And, yet it seems more like your upgrade is based more on 22% of the 699.00
price, which then would change thing considerably.

LA v4:  479 x 22% is still 105.39 round down is 99.00
LA v5:  699 x 22% is now 153.78 round down is 150.00  <---you upgrade price
:-P
LA v5:  999 x 22% is now 219.78 round down is 199.00

Add 99.00 + 150 = 249.00 based around the 699.00 MSRP
or
Add 99.00 + 200 = 299.00 based on current 999.00 MSRP

I don't see where any of this equates 399.00 as fair market value.

And yet look at this:

LA v4:  479 x 28% is still 134.12
LA v5:  699 x 28% is now 195.72
LA v5:  999 x 28% is now 279.72

Add 134.12 + 195.72 = 329.84 (329.00 round down) based around the 699.00
MSRP
or
Add 134.12 + 279.72 = 413.84 (399.00 round down) based on current 999.00
MSRP

You pay 22% of the 699.00 (MSRP).  And yet, I pay 28% based on the 999.00
(MSRP).

How is that effective judgement on Emagic's part?  Or yours, for that
matter.

No matter how I do it, if I bought the promotion or not.  The math here is
not right.  No matter how one breaks it down.  I am still paying more than
you. Something is quite funky in paradise, and yet most don't see it.  It is
like I have spell it out like "See Jane go to the store.  See Jane get
ripped off by store clerk." 

Peace,
Alexis


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

<Jonathan wrote something to which effectively turned into rant of denial,
and still doesn't effectively use his objectivity to see the truth in
Numbers. >

Oh okay, a slight faux pa for me, but hey and even bigger fuax pa for
you...look again oh wise one.  It is 22% of the MSRP.  Don't think I am
making this crap up.  Just because you failed in math doesn't mean that the
truth of math doesn't work.  The fact is 399.00 is my upgrade price, yet the
truth here shows I am paying more then the fair market value.  Don't try to
detter from the truth, it makes you look very bad.  Be objective and read. 
I am not bitching or whining.  I am showing you the truth.  If I told you
Cubase was a great piece of software, then I would lying.  LOOK!  I am not
doing this for my health, ya know.

799.00 = 175.78  <--based on 22% of 799.00
699.00 = 153.78  <--based on 22% of 699.00
949.00 = 208.78  <--based on 22% of 949.00

Your price to upgrade:

153.78 then round down 150.00 <--based on 22% of 699.00 (which is not
MSRP...LOL...List is 949.00)

So to you, if it were base on the real 22% of the 949.00 MSRP it is actually
208.78, with a 25% reduction in price.  LOL.  So you are getting the deal,
and I am not.

----------------------

Now, again, my price to upgrade.

175.78 + 208.78 <--based on 22% of 949.00 = 384.78

384.78 then Round up 399.00

So you see, what I should be paying is:

175.78 + 153.78 <--based on 22% of 699.00 = 329.56

Round down 329.00 <-- a fair market value.

Now any smart company would then say, no let's make 299.00.  Because the
consumer has to absorb, tax, shipping, shipping back of dongles and CD's,
then add insurance, and of course has their own bills.  Again, Emagic is
business, they are not some Mom and Pop shop, that come and visit you on
your birthdays and drink booze with your parents.  So, in effect they are
not your friends, they are your business partner.  And therefore should be
treated as such.

So, now...NO, I am not a retailer, I am however, and educated consumer who
sees a problem in the math.  The math is not lying.  If any mathimation saw
this, they would "You're right".  However, if Emagic would like to show me
the real concept of what is their mathematical equation of deriving 399.00
as fair price.  I am more than open to see this reasoning.  Otherwise I am
no more a fool than you are.

Why are you in denial?  It was fitting to pay 249 for v3.72 to v4 two years
ago.  But now it is not so.  It is not considered fair market value,
especially when one LOOKS at the numbers.  You certainly would not pay full
value on yesterdays price of a P3 processor, when there are P4 processors
for the same price.  It is funny how most of you would bitch up a high storm
for cost electricity or gas going up, but when is comes to Emagic, a company
and a business, like any, you defend them like some holy grail, like they
are doing you favors.  Can't you see the numbers in front of you.  

Also, another question that you so fittingly forgot to ask yourself and I
have to point this out to you.
Let's say it took 8 months for them to develop v4, then released it, yet you
waited six months before upgrading.   Yet, then they came out with v5,
within that six month time frame.  Would you be so inclined and quick to pay
399.00, based on what you percieve?  Or would you question the validity of
the numbers?  Updates, Free sub-releases, whatever...Count the beans, equate
the fair market value, and read between the lines.  Cause right now, you far
from objective and logical.  

Now the last set of numbers were slightly amiss.  And these are breakdown
the same and still point to you actually paying 150.00 based on the 699.00
(which is no longer MSRP) and ME paying based on the 949.00 MSRP.  It is
totally amazing that you can't evolve past your flawed logic to SEE that. 
These are numbers anyone would use to figure out to ethically price
something.  You don't just pick numbers out of the air you know.  That is
not how it works.  The problem with most of you, is you hate to admit your
wrong.  So you guys keep arguing this till your blue in the face.  Yet I am
trying to pass on the truth and help you in the long run.  

Did you know, that you could actually, feasibly haggle price at some
departments stores.  For instance, at Macy's you can't haggle, but they give
you a discount card of 10%.  That mean's there is a 15% mark up on prices at
certain types of stores.  So, in effect if the store does not have say a 10%
discount card, you can actually haggle for 15% reduction in price.  Now, if
they are stubborn or can't feasibly do it, then you walk.  Period.  Take
your business elsewhere (which yes I am contemplating).  Now if you look at
MOTU's pricing system, it is very much like Apple.  A set price where ever
you go.  No room to haggle.  Unless buying *antiquated* technology...LOL.

Now the difference between the price of 799.00 for LAPv4 and 949.00 for
LAPv5 is 150.00.  LOL.   Which puts Emagic  technically selling LAPv4 with a
16% reduction in price, compared to LAPv5.  But the retailer is able to sell
it at 479.00.  Which means there is still a fair amount of room to
profit...LOL.  Amazing huh?

Peace,
Alexis

>LOL! I randomly pick a number of 32% and you sit there and try to figure
>out it's deep meanings. There are no deep meanings, or failed math on my
>part . . I just made up a number.

I said truth in math.  I never said there was a deep meaning to the math. 
What I said was the "Truth in math"...do you know how read.  Your in fact
adding subtext that isn't there, which is very obscured from the truth.

It is not a made up number...take a calculator and do it up.  You will see. 
Your logic is like a particle of food stuck between the teeth, easily
refuted with a tooth pick.  

>good bye, <-- yes please, chow fer now.
>God bless, <-- oic
>have fun.  <-- I am.

Peace,
Alexis

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Alexis Aiosa" <aiosa9@m...> wrote:

> It is not a made up number...take a calculator and do it up.  

OK. Here's what I came up with. $249 + $150 = $399. Do you 
think you can read that?

>> It is not a made up number...take a calculator and do it up.  

<jon wrote: Less but still inane garbage.>

>OK. Here's what I came up with. $249 + $150 = $399. Do you 
>think you can read that?

Oh hey, that makes real sense.  Wow, why didn't I think of that!  Now I see.
 Yah, right...NOT!

Real silly, boy, one day you are gonna get ripped off, and you won't know
why.  And a person like me is going to be chuckling behind your back.

So let's see, since this is the way you think...according to inflation rate
calculations.

249.00 was the price for v4 in 2000.

So therefore the price of upgrading from v4 to v5 should be the same, not
changed, but increased based on the power of current inflation, and consumer
price index and labor production.
(see the leap from v3.72 to v4.0, is not much larger than the leap from
v4.8.1 to v5.0.  That is in between each upgrade.)

Making your upgrade price, based on "your ideals" and inflation, total to
264.69.  Round up to 265.00, then add tax and shipping.

So since 265.00 is not your price.  Now you received 42% reduction in price,
even though, based on pricing and inflation you shouldn't.

265 x 42% = 153.7 then round down.  150.00

So therefore. My upgrade price is now.

265.00 + 265.00 = 530.00

Which then I should probably receive the same rate of 42% reduction on the
upgrade price. 

265.00 + 150.00 = 415.00  then round down to 399.00

Yet, since we both get a 42% reduction in price on the upgrade.  There is no
price reduction for v4 upgrade, hmmm, that is odd.  Which by today's market
value, once driven off the lot, the price goes down 50%.  But if a
dealer/manufacturer holds on to the product, each year equates about a rough
estimate of 25% (or more) reduction in price.  So therefore the price of the
v4 upgrade has devalued to the open market roughly 50 to 60 percent.

799(MSRP) x 60% reduction = 479.00 
(which roughly means that Emagic has now sold v4 for 339.00 to 399.00 to the
retailer.  Allowing for 15-30 percent markup for the retailer.)

So in fact, v4 has effectively devalued over the open market

So then you take 265.00 inflation cost of v4 upgrade, and devalue it 60%. 
Which then comes to:

265 x 60% = 105.60 then round down 99.00

99.00 x 30% markup is rounded up to 129.00

So that makes it

129.00 + 150.00 = 279.00

Or since I am late, I could take some punishment for the "crime for not
upgrading on time" and we add 15% markup to the upgrade price.  That would
make it:

129.00 + 170.00 = 299.00

So now they are making 30% on the devalued v4 upgrade and 15% on the current
v5 upgrade.  Which you in fact are not paying.  Either way, Emagic is still
making money off me...yet losing money on you.  Buy all the math
estimations, 22% of the retail price of 479.00 for v4, is in fact 105.38,
which does closely resembles the inflation cost of 265 at 60% reduction in
price, hence 105.60 then round down 99.00 then add in the 30% markup.  Yet,
in still looking at it, you are paying 22% of 699.00 (which is not MSRP) and
not 22% of 949.00 (MSRP), which would be in fact 208.78 rounded down,
199.00.  Yet if one bought the promotion over the counter, then one is
getting 399.00 - AW2 card @ 79.00 which comes to 320 - 30% markup equates
224.00.  But the new user who bought the promo, received v4 NEW, for 320.
Which now means that the new user who bought the promotion, is now paying
22% above the "So Called" current upgrade cost to me at 249.00.  Which then
means that you should be paying 22% above your current upgrade, that is to
be fair.  Which would then 183.00 round down 179.00.
  
So for me that would be:
130 + 179.00 = 309.00 round down 299.00
 
However to be more fair, you should be paying 22% of the over counter price,
which then would be 199.00 rounded down. According to you, my calculations
of your ideals, put you at cheating Emagic more than I. 

So yet that puts me at:
130 + 199.00 = 329.00

So again, your logic is flawed.  You have failed to provide any pragmatic
information to prove otherwise. You just blab on and on with no concept of
anything, except that people should pay what you paid two years ago.  That
is your only excuse.  Yet you don't realize that one day, the concept will
backfire in your face.  Your reasoning is not reasoning, but naive thinking
to what is current in the market.

Yet you're to blind to see that, because what you want is for anybody today,
to pay the same as you did two years ago.  Hey, no problem man.  If that is
how you think the world should work.  I tell you what, I will sell you my
K2000 V3, SMP-K option, Contemporary card and 32MB of Sample RAM, for
3,999.00 US right now, no tax.  And, to make it more interesting to you, I
will give you my 3x speed CD-Rom drive I have hooked up to it for absolutely
free.  If you say yes, consider it a done deal, dude.  You got it!  I will
ship it next day air at no cost to you.  Do you use Pay Pal?  Saaayyy...this
really means, that I should be able to pick up a real 1964 Stratocaster for
$300.00.  Excellent. 

Silly Rabbit...Trix is for Kids!
Peace,
Alexis