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arps automation/ guitar bends

arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by GAmoore@aol.com

I think the keys should be labeled "C" and "D", and perhaps color coded 
as well. C is yellow, D is orange, E is green, etc. And instead of just 
playing arpegiators, you would have 1,001 well known melodies which would 
not only play, but you could morph between them randomly to create new 
melodies......and if you could set up a controller where the different 
shades of light coming of the television activated a photo cell to choose 
the melodies and notes, you would have an autonomous music creation 
station - no need for humans at all.

On a more serious path : Have you ever noticed that bending strings on a 
guitar never sounds the same as bending the notes on a sampler with a 
guitar patch. Does anyone know what the difference is in the curves? I 
mean the pitch bend wheel must be very linear, but the guitar must be 
non-linear. And if you can get a good bend, then you can get a realistic 
vibrato too by tiny pitch bends.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>  >With an arp you don't have to move your fingers.  Esp handy if you
>>>don't know the difference between a C and a D...
>>
>>well they're both white keys - look the same to me
>
>You know what I don't get?  There's this one key on my synth which 
>supposedly plays a C.

Re: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 21-06-2001:

>I think the keys should be labeled "C" and "D", and perhaps color coded
>as well. C is yellow, D is orange, E is green, etc.

Well, but how about if you're colourblind then?  Why not reduce the 
number of keys to, say, 12 (since there are way too many anyhow), 
and, apart from colouring them, also give them these different 
bump-configurations they also use on money -- so (colour-) blind can 
feel their way around?
I'd like that as I usually play with my eyes closed when I''m in a 
(muscial) trance...

>On a more serious path : Have you ever noticed that bending strings on a
>guitar never sounds the same as bending the notes on a sampler with a
>guitar patch. Does anyone know what the difference is in the curves?

Might have to do with different string tension maybe.  I mean, 
bending the string will increase tension which in turn will probably 
affect the relative volume of overtones.  Pitchbend otoh does nothing 
but shift the pitch.

Or is this nonsense?


tata,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

SV: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by Per Boysen

Från: Hendrik Jan Veenstra [mailto:h@...]

  Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 21-06-2001:

  >On a more serious path : Have you ever noticed that bending strings on a
  >guitar never sounds the same as bending the notes on a sampler with a
  >guitar patch. Does anyone know what the difference is in the curves?

  Might have to do with different string tension maybe.  I mean, 
  bending the string will increase tension which in turn will probably 
  affect the relative volume of overtones.  Pitchbend otoh does nothing 
  but shift the pitch.

  Or is this nonsense?

   Definitely not, IMHO. I think Hendrik got it exactly right there!

  per 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by david@floydsproduce.com

--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:

> On a more serious path : Have you ever noticed that bending strings 
on a 
> guitar never sounds the same as bending the notes on a sampler with 
a 
> guitar patch. Does anyone know what the difference is in the curves? 
I 
> mean the pitch bend wheel must be very linear, but the guitar must 
be 
> non-linear. 

There's a lot more than just pitch bending going on when when you pull 
a string. You got the tone changing (filtering is gonna be needed), 
and the volume level changes, all this and the pitch is constantly 
changing during the bend of the string, so yes it is hard to simulate 
that.

> vibrato too by tiny pitch bends.

That can be done sometimes by a nice ribbon controller, but it's a lot 
more data to record.


df

Re: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by Sascha Franck

Hendrik Jan Veenstra wrote:
> Might have to do with different string tension maybe.  I mean,
> bending the string will increase tension which in turn will probably
> affect the relative volume of overtones.  Pitchbend otoh does nothing
> but shift the pitch.

Actually, bendings on a guitar sound that different because it's just no
100% exact technique in almost all cases. This includes both the physics of
the instrument - a bend on the B string sounds pretty much different from a
bend on the G string (just for that matter, *any* note will sound different)
and the playing techniques involved in bending. There's almost no guitar
player doing bendings without a more or less slight vibrato on the bended
notes, actually that's a great part of a personal style, then the timing of
the bendings varies pretty much as well (at least usually).

And then there is the (unfortunate) effect that many guitar players simply
are lousy in bending. This might result in wrong tunings (worst) or some
unpleasant vibratos. Unfortunately even truly great players often have a
bending technique that makes listening to them some kind of a pain. IMO
Steve Morse is one of them. He's a kickass player by technical means but his
bends almost allways just have that kinda too fast, whiny and clumsy
sounding vibrato on them (ah yeah, flame me for that :-)

Actually, investing a bit of time in my bending technique really improved my
playing a lot, but most guitar players never ever think about this, they
just seem to think that bending "just works".

The same might be true for the pitch wheel on keyboards - you just gotta
practice it to get it right.

On the guitar I had some practises like bending each note to the second
above with each finger in each position. Then I did a bend-release using the
same approach. Then reverse bends (which is one of the hardest, it means
prebending a note without actually hearing it, then picking it and releasing
it, Larry Carlton used to use that quite a bit). I also did that for thirds.
Or for "note-bend-to-second-bend-to-third" patterns (cool Steve Lukather
like effects are possible that way, IMO a hot candidate for the guitar
player with the greatest soloing tone ever - even if I don't like almost all
of his stuff at all).

The next thing I practiced was applying in-time vibratos on the bends
(actually I allready studied in-time vibratos without any bendings before).
1/4 notes, 1/8 notes, 1/16 notes, triplets, etc.

While bending a major second might not require too much practise on a
keyboard (as it's the default max. setting on almost all synth patches) all
the other techniques are perfectly applyable to playing synths as well.

Cheers,
Sascha

Re: Re: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by GAmoore@aol.com

>I'd like that as I usually play with my eyes closed when I''m in a 
>(muscial) trance...

We can go to braile keys....or maybe fruit-scented (C is strawberry, D is 
lemon-lime, etc.)

Regarding bending strings, the tension is increasing, however, since the 
string is being pulled into a angle, it lengthens a bit too. I guess you 
would need a multi-sample or an algorthm to simulate the change in 
overtones.

Re: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-21 by Per Boysen

Från: GAmoore@...
> 
> Regarding bending strings, the tension is increasing, however, since the
> string is being pulled into a angle, it lengthens a bit too. I guess you
> would need a multi-sample or an algorthm to simulate the change in
> overtones.

...with some inbuilt randomiser as well. I was producing a Guitar Sampling
CD and did some extensive listening to a a lot of sampled single string/pick
attacks - and not two had the same overtones. Then we have the neck and fret
board giving different resonations at different frets, and at last the
bridge and body resonates differently to different notes. I doubt it would
be possible to electronically duplicate a guitar sound.

per 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-22 by Phil Angus

Sascha Franke said:

> This might result in wrong tunings (worst) or some
> unpleasant vibratos. Unfortunately even truly great players often have a
> bending technique that makes listening to them some kind of a pain. IMO
> Steve Morse is one of them. He's a kickass player by technical means but
his
> bends almost allways just have that kinda too fast, whiny and clumsy
> sounding vibrato on them (ah yeah, flame me for that :-)

I kind of agree with this. The opposite would be Gary Moore who has that'I
am going to bend the string 3 tones and hit that note even if it rips my
finger off' approach.

Of course one of the all time greats for multi string bending is Gerry
Donaghue.

Jimmy Page often bent flat (especially live), but his style allowed it and
it became part of his trademark.

Just to keep some racial balance, another of my all time favourites for real
accurate and fluent playing is Michael Schenker. His solo on the live
version of RockBottom (Strangers In The Night) is still one of the all time
greats for me.

Of course we could talk all weekend about great guitar players (I could
anyway). There's John McCloughlin (who can forget that performance at
Seville in early nineties).

The question about guitar string bend compared to pitch wheel raised seemed
daft to me, then I realized maybe it's not that straight forward to
understand to a non guitarist. When you bend a string you are adding all
sorts of imperfections to the note and harmonics along with fret noise and
pickup characteristics as the string passes between poles. When you pitch
bend on a keyboard you are bending the note with harmonics and noise all in
unison at the same rate. Quite recently I wanted to create a sort of false
string bend by holding a note and using SoundForge to create the bend. The
note died much quicker than it would have had I bent it naturally. I
wouldn't say I am exactly one of the Worlds great guitarists, but string
bending is probably one of my stronger points and if I don't make the note
properly or fret noise takes over prematurely I always go for a retake as I
think it can sound really frustrating, unless it becomes a feature.

I wish you hadn't started me off about guitars and guitarists!

Re: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-23 by John Matthews

Hey dont forget three of my personal favourite guitarists- as well as Page,
Schenker (criminally undererrated, I agree, Strangers in the night had a big
affect on my playing- at one time I knew nearly every lick!), and Garry
Moore,  what about Hendrix, Brian May, and possibly the greatest living rock
guitarist today:-

Eric Johnson

Cheers

John

Groovey Band website                          mail to :
chickenjohn@...
http://www.grooveyband.co.uk/
East Kent Morris Minor Club web site        or  ; john@...
http://www.ekmm.co.uk
Shake The Snake web site (other band)   or  ; john@...
http://www.shakethesnake.co.uk


----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Angus <phil.angus@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 June 2001 23:48
Subject: RE: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends


> Sascha Franke said:
>
> > This might result in wrong tunings (worst) or some
> > unpleasant vibratos. Unfortunately even truly great players often have a
> > bending technique that makes listening to them some kind of a pain. IMO
> > Steve Morse is one of them. He's a kickass player by technical means but
> his
> > bends almost allways just have that kinda too fast, whiny and clumsy
> > sounding vibrato on them (ah yeah, flame me for that :-)
>
> I kind of agree with this. The opposite would be Gary Moore who has that'I
> am going to bend the string 3 tones and hit that note even if it rips my
> finger off' approach.
>
> Of course one of the all time greats for multi string bending is Gerry
> Donaghue.
>
> Jimmy Page often bent flat (especially live), but his style allowed it and
> it became part of his trademark.
>
> Just to keep some racial balance, another of my all time favourites for
real
> accurate and fluent playing is Michael Schenker. His solo on the live
> version of RockBottom (Strangers In The Night) is still one of the all
time
> greats for me.
>
> Of course we could talk all weekend about great guitar players (I could
> anyway). There's John McCloughlin (who can forget that performance at
> Seville in early nineties).
>
> The question about guitar string bend compared to pitch wheel raised
seemed
> daft to me, then I realized maybe it's not that straight forward to
> understand to a non guitarist. When you bend a string you are adding all
> sorts of imperfections to the note and harmonics along with fret noise and
> pickup characteristics as the string passes between poles. When you pitch
> bend on a keyboard you are bending the note with harmonics and noise all
in
> unison at the same rate. Quite recently I wanted to create a sort of false
> string bend by holding a note and using SoundForge to create the bend. The
> note died much quicker than it would have had I bent it naturally. I
> wouldn't say I am exactly one of the Worlds great guitarists, but string
> bending is probably one of my stronger points and if I don't make the note
> properly or fret noise takes over prematurely I always go for a retake as
I
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> think it can sound really frustrating, unless it becomes a feature.
>
> I wish you hadn't started me off about guitars and guitarists!
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: RE: [L-OT] arps automation/ guitar bends

2001-06-23 by GAmoore@aol.com

Well some say that Hendrix had an ear for microtonalities. For example in 
Purple Haze - the 4th note of the intro is bent just a little sharp but 
it doesn't sound right without that tweak.

>Jimmy Page often bent flat (especially live), but his style allowed it and
>it became part of his trademark.

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