MOTM

Just a touch short on rent and need to sell this.
Don't want to, but I have to.

$170 + ship

See here for pic and more info:

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64898

Thanks,
Phil

What about a "MOTM" format for the new 5xx series modules? unless I'm missing some discussion I just wonder why only us MOTMers can't enjoy of these recent modules (I'm not talking of the 510 of course).
Enrico (Italy)

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "peng3002" <megaOhm1@...> wrote:

>
> Just a touch short on rent and need to sell this.
> Don't want to, but I have to.
> 
> $170 + ship
> 
> See here for pic and more info:
> 
> http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64898
> 
> Thanks,
> Phil
>

Euro stole this opportunity from us 5U guys (sort of). It's more runaway success than theft and Paul also bears some of the blame - hence the rebirth of MOTM in surface mount and little to no wiring... I am not only bummed that new 5U stuff isn't coming from Paul, but the value of my considerable investment in a 5U modular is at an all time low right now. Sad but good for the Euro dudes. I am envious as everything you can dream of is now in Euro and the stuff you can't dream of is coming out next month cause the world is abuzz with those tiny modules. I like the variety of all of it but am now at a different phase with production and parenthood so I just admire from afar and keep paying my bank for the mortgage instead of Front Panel Express for panels. I would love the morphing stuff in particular to hit 5U. 

Thomas White
Natural Rhythm Music
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

On Aug 15, 2012, at 10:49 AM, "edibennardo" <endiendi@...> wrote:

> What about a "MOTM" format for the new 5xx series modules? unless I'm missing some discussion I just wonder why only us MOTMers can't enjoy of these recent modules (I'm not talking of the 510 of course).
> Enrico (Italy)
> 
> --- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "peng3002" <megaOhm1@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just a touch short on rent and need to sell this.
> > Don't want to, but I have to.
> > 
> > $170 + ship
> > 
> > See here for pic and more info:
> > 
> > http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64898
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Phil
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

This is sort of a 2-part MOTM issue

 

MOTM as DIY-based

 

Certainly since the first module the kits out-sold the assembled like 25:1. In some modules probably 75:1. Things went OK until the RoHS directive killed both the Switchcraft jacks and the Spectrol pots at once. It took nearly 2 years to get those parts back and running, only to have Vishay (that made the RoHS version) drive the price from $1.80 to $7.50. This clogged the pipeline, blew up the backlog and it was not until BI came out with the P260 family that I could finally get going. This is just on the “business” side of things. 

 

So, I decided to have Scott at BrideChamber take over and I think he has done a great job. The parts, kits, panels and pc boards are still there.

 

But what is missing? New offerings specifically for DIYers. (and some MOTM kits I need to ship out, more on that later).

 

I have not decided yet if the ROI (return on investment) is worth it for doing more DIY-specific MOTM modules. Right now I am thinking not.

 

MOTM as Assembled

 

The current MOTM modules were not engineered to be ‘quick’ to assemble, in fact (and you know who you are) some folks think the longer it takes/the more parts the better the overall fun factor. Which is exactly what DIYers want but not exactly great for one-at-a-time assembly. It’s not that the ROI isn’t good (it is) but the time required is a problem.

 

MOTM as a ‘Hobby’

 

It started as a hobby and I want it to remain a hobby. I do NOT want to do this 100% as my ‘living’. But since Jan. it has been (and hopefully next month will revert back to full hobby status). I have focused on Euro because that is how I have to support my family. I have NOT ignored MOTM entirely but yes Euro has “stolen” the bulk of time because it is necessary to do so. I do not like doing this, it is not fair to 5U customers but it is just what has to be done now.

 

I have interviewed twice recently and feel at least 1 of them will result in full time, with health insurance benefits, employment. This will allow me to then go back to 5U more and more. Note that I may have to physically move (again) so there will be 3-4 weeks where not much will go on. May people take holiday/vacation in August so it’s a good time to move anyway. I will not know for sure until next week. But I am optimistic.

 

Will there ever be new 5U stuff?

 

Yes, but as assembled. And I will start with going to Kickstarter (www.kickstarter.com) in order to judge the demand. In this way, no money exchanges hands until a goal is reached (in dollars, but that is just a minimum number of modules). SMT tooling is expensive, like $900. Each pc board run is $250 setup on the machines. The prices will be “high” (say in the $400 range) initially. But with SMT assembly, I can go from the boards in front of me to a finished, calibrated module in about 9 minutes. The years of waiting are over, I can build 50 modules a week in my spare time.

 

I think offering a 50 module minimum run is fair and the way Kickstarter is set up I can ship more than 50 but not LESS than 50. So if for example I offer a 5U and a MU Cloud Generator both at $400 with 50 of each and there is a dollar pledge over $40,000 then I would just make more and everyone that pledged gets a module. I think this is fair, I do not even have to buy parts until the goal is met, unlike the current way where I have to HOPE there is a demand. I could split it and say “as long as I get 80 modules of a mix of MU/5U we have a go”.

 

BUT….I will NOT do this until EVERY current MOTM user has their modules from me. I might tinker on the CAD system beforehand but nothing ‘official’ until then.

 

And when will this be?

 

The honest answer: I have no idea. Will it be in 2012? Yes it will but not going to say ‘by Oct 1’ or whatever. Because I never hit the dates anyway. So instead of a watch or calendar I’m looking at the leaves of tress J A LOT may happen in the next 6 weeks. I may not get a job offer and then the 5U time is what it is now.

 

If people think MOTM is ‘dead’ or in a ‘death spiral’ or they feel ‘abandoned’ they certainly have the data to point to that. And it’s 100% on me. But as Granny liked to say, “The proof is in the pudding”. So, after I get the MOTM backlog  shipped, and I post the modules to KickStarter (there will be 3 of them) then the user base will decide MOTM’s fate. 

 

Paul S.

Without objecting anything to what Paul is saying, since no one can know better than himself what is right to do with motm things, I remember that Blacet used to sell partial kits were modules came without panels pots and jacks in order to second a different format, Scott Deyo might add the rest so we can have 5U 500 series as well. 
Enrico (Italy)

The newer SMT boards are 100% soldered with all pots, jacks and switches.
There cannot be a "kit" as there is nothing to do except screw it to a panel
and attach knobs. I suppose Scott could offer that but.......why?

Paul S.


Without objecting anything to what Paul is saying, since no one can know
better than himself what is right to do with motm things, I remember that
Blacet used to sell partial kits were modules came without panels pots and
jacks in order to second a different format, Scott Deyo might add the rest
so we can have 5U 500 series as well. 
Enrico (Italy)

If it's possible to run the Euro PCBs without the pots, jacks, and 
switches installed, then it would save you the time and expense of 
having to design and manufacture a 5U-specific PCB.  It would save us 
the years of waiting for you to design and manufacture a 5U module, 
or alternately, the time and extra expense of having to buy your 
assembled Euro modules, remove the front panel, desolder the pots, 
jacks, and switches, and discard the front panel and jacks (currently 
the only way to get your new modules in 5U).  It's not difficult to 
run wires from the PCB holes to the pots, jacks, and switches - 
everyone who's built an MOTM kit has already done it.  Scott could 
sell kits, parts, and assembled modules.  It'd be full of win for everyone.

Jeffrey



At 11:34 AM 8/16/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:

>The newer SMT boards are 100% soldered with all pots, jacks and switches.
>There cannot be a "kit" as there is nothing to do except screw it to a panel
>and attach knobs. I suppose Scott could offer that but.......why?
>
>Paul S.
>
>
>Without objecting anything to what Paul is saying, since no one can know
>better than himself what is right to do with motm things, I remember that
>Blacet used to sell partial kits were modules came without panels pots and
>jacks in order to second a different format, Scott Deyo might add the rest
>so we can have 5U 500 series as well.
>Enrico (Italy)
>

A 50 unit minimum looks to me like an awfully high bar to reach. Especially
at $400 per. And the rest of the criteria isn't clear to me. Are you saying
you need 50 MOTM AND 50 MU (going by the $40,000 figure you throw out)
before we've got a run? Regardless, I don't see how this is going to happen.
Echoing Thomas' sentiment, my MOTM 'investment' has not been pretty.

 

Greg James

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:49 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






This is sort of a 2-part MOTM issue

 

MOTM as DIY-based

 

Certainly since the first module the kits out-sold the assembled like 25:1.
In some modules probably 75:1. Things went OK until the RoHS directive
killed both the Switchcraft jacks and the Spectrol pots at once. It took
nearly 2 years to get those parts back and running, only to have Vishay
(that made the RoHS version) drive the price from $1.80 to $7.50. This
clogged the pipeline, blew up the backlog and it was not until BI came out
with the P260 family that I could finally get going. This is just on the
"business" side of things. 

 

So, I decided to have Scott at BrideChamber take over and I think he has
done a great job. The parts, kits, panels and pc boards are still there.

 

But what is missing? New offerings specifically for DIYers. (and some MOTM
kits I need to ship out, more on that later).

 

I have not decided yet if the ROI (return on investment) is worth it for
doing more DIY-specific MOTM modules. Right now I am thinking not.

 

MOTM as Assembled

 

The current MOTM modules were not engineered to be 'quick' to assemble, in
fact (and you know who you are) some folks think the longer it takes/the
more parts the better the overall fun factor. Which is exactly what DIYers
want but not exactly great for one-at-a-time assembly. It's not that the ROI
isn't good (it is) but the time required is a problem.

 

MOTM as a 'Hobby'

 

It started as a hobby and I want it to remain a hobby. I do NOT want to do
this 100% as my 'living'. But since Jan. it has been (and hopefully next
month will revert back to full hobby status). I have focused on Euro because
that is how I have to support my family. I have NOT ignored MOTM entirely
but yes Euro has "stolen" the bulk of time because it is necessary to do so.
I do not like doing this, it is not fair to 5U customers but it is just what
has to be done now.

 

I have interviewed twice recently and feel at least 1 of them will result in
full time, with health insurance benefits, employment. This will allow me to
then go back to 5U more and more. Note that I may have to physically move
(again) so there will be 3-4 weeks where not much will go on. May people
take holiday/vacation in August so it's a good time to move anyway. I will
not know for sure until next week. But I am optimistic.

 

Will there ever be new 5U stuff?

 

Yes, but as assembled. And I will start with going to Kickstarter
(www.kickstarter.com) in order to judge the demand. In this way, no money
exchanges hands until a goal is reached (in dollars, but that is just a
minimum number of modules). SMT tooling is expensive, like $900. Each pc
board run is $250 setup on the machines. The prices will be "high" (say in
the $400 range) initially. But with SMT assembly, I can go from the boards
in front of me to a finished, calibrated module in about 9 minutes. The
years of waiting are over, I can build 50 modules a week in my spare time.

 

I think offering a 50 module minimum run is fair and the way Kickstarter is
set up I can ship more than 50 but not LESS than 50. So if for example I
offer a 5U and a MU Cloud Generator both at $400 with 50 of each and there
is a dollar pledge over $40,000 then I would just make more and everyone
that pledged gets a module. I think this is fair, I do not even have to buy
parts until the goal is met, unlike the current way where I have to HOPE
there is a demand. I could split it and say "as long as I get 80 modules of
a mix of MU/5U we have a go".

 

BUT..I will NOT do this until EVERY current MOTM user has their modules from
me. I might tinker on the CAD system beforehand but nothing 'official' until
then.

 

And when will this be?

 

The honest answer: I have no idea. Will it be in 2012? Yes it will but not
going to say 'by Oct 1' or whatever. Because I never hit the dates anyway.
So instead of a watch or calendar I'm looking at the leaves of tress :-) A
LOT may happen in the next 6 weeks. I may not get a job offer and then the
5U time is what it is now.

 

If people think MOTM is 'dead' or in a 'death spiral' or they feel
'abandoned' they certainly have the data to point to that. And it's 100% on
me. But as Granny liked to say, "The proof is in the pudding". So, after I
get the MOTM backlog  shipped, and I post the modules to KickStarter (there
will be 3 of them) then the user base will decide MOTM's fate. 

 

Paul S.

It would be great and I'd be all for it but I wouldn't be surprised if the
partially finished Euro board would cost us almost as much as a finished
euro module since:

There would probably be an additional setup fee at the assembly plant

The number of half finished modules would be a lot less than finished
modules so that run may cost more per board set

There is additional time and handling involved of handling two different
version of the same product

One thought I had to make it much simpler to convert fully completed euros
to 5U would be to design new modules (probably too late to change existing)
with all the jack, pot and switch traces and the related circuit traces meet
up at jumper rows. Assuming that the automated assembler can place the
jumpers, there should be no additional manual assembly time added. Then, to
convert to 5U:

Remove the knobz and nutz 

Remove the front panel

Remove all the jumpers

Make MTA .100 cables to go between the jacks, pots and switches on your 5U
Front Panel Express/BrideChamber/Re:Synthesis/Home brew panel and half the
jumper points on the PCB

Mount the PSC set BACKWARDS to your 5U panel so all the now disconnected
jacks, pots and switches are out of the way

The plus' are:
Reduced cost my making only one module the "fits all"
Soldering is minimal: No surface mount soldering/desoldering, just to lugs
on panel controls
Conversion is Non-destructive: convert back to euro just by remounting PCB
to euro panel and put jumpers back on

Yes, there are downsides:
Increased overall cost of the module 
Maybe increased PCB size to accommodate all those jumpers
Paul more hairless due to pulling last ones out ;-)


Or, maybe it's time DIYers step up their game and just buy good desoldering
tools and maybe better soldering equipment and magnifiers??? :-)


John


> -----Original Message-----
> From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J.D.
> McEachin
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:54 AM
> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format
> 
> If it's possible to run the Euro PCBs without the pots, jacks, and
> switches installed, then it would save you the time and expense of
> having to design and manufacture a 5U-specific PCB.  It would save us
> the years of waiting for you to design and manufacture a 5U module,
> or alternately, the time and extra expense of having to buy your
> assembled Euro modules, remove the front panel, desolder the pots,
> jacks, and switches, and discard the front panel and jacks (currently
> the only way to get your new modules in 5U).  It's not difficult to
> run wires from the PCB holes to the pots, jacks, and switches -
> everyone who's built an MOTM kit has already done it.  Scott could
> sell kits, parts, and assembled modules.  It'd be full of win for
everyone.
> 
> Jeffrey
> 
> 
> 
> At 11:34 AM 8/16/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:
> >The newer SMT boards are 100% soldered with all pots, jacks and switches.
> >There cannot be a "kit" as there is nothing to do except screw it to a
panel
> >and attach knobs. I suppose Scott could offer that but.......why?
> >
> >Paul S.
> >
> >
> >Without objecting anything to what Paul is saying, since no one can know
> >better than himself what is right to do with motm things, I remember that
> >Blacet used to sell partial kits were modules came without panels pots
and
> >jacks in order to second a different format, Scott Deyo might add the
rest

> >so we can have 5U 500 series as well.
> >Enrico (Italy)
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:53 PM, J.D. McEachin <jdm@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> If it's possible to run the Euro PCBs without the pots, jacks, and
> switches installed, then it would save you the time and expense of
> having to design and manufacture a 5U-specific PCB. It would save us
> the years of waiting for you to design and manufacture a 5U module,
> or alternately, the time and extra expense of having to buy your
> assembled Euro modules, remove the front panel, desolder the pots,
> jacks, and switches, and discard the front panel and jacks (currently
> the only way to get your new modules in 5U). It's not difficult to
> run wires from the PCB holes to the pots, jacks, and switches -
> everyone who's built an MOTM kit has already done it. Scott could
> sell kits, parts, and assembled modules. It'd be full of win for everyone.
>
> Jeffrey

All,

I'm with Jeffrey on this one!  This is how I see the current
situation:  Were it not for us 5U MOTM customers that helped Paul
launch SynthTech, there wouldn't be MOTM in the Euro format.  We are
orphaned for the foreseeable future according to the present plans.
Euro-format customers are benefiting on the road paved, in part, by my
kilo-dollar investment in 5U.  I like the idea of buying stuffed
boards, sans pots, jacks, and panels.  If the pots and jacks are
through-hole components there is likely an assembly cost-adder for
these through-hole components.  It usually involves "selective
soldering" in which the through-hole components are soldered after the
SMT parts have been placed and soldered.  Since the board is
"complete" for us 5U people, just request a certain number of boards
be pulled before the selective soldering step is performed.  Without
the pots, jacks, panels, knobs, and selective soldering step ... these
boards should be cheaper to produce.  For the comparatively small
orders like Euro-format synth modules, this solution should not
present any unresolvable problems.

The bonus is that 5U customers want the new stuff:  The current lack
of a plan to appease the 5U crowd alienates the very people who
collectively made all this possible.  Turn pissed-off former customers
into new customers!  It is good policy, good business, and a proper
thing to do.  Making this happen is not rocket science.  It takes a
few phone calls and a couple of emails.  I cannot imagine an easier
solution.  Thank you Jeffrey!  You hit the nail on the head.

Best!
Tom Farrand

Were it not for us 5U MOTM customers that helped Paul launch SynthTech,
there wouldn't be MOTM in the Euro format.

I don't think that's true. Or fair. The only "MOTM" in Euro is the
not-yet-released E440 which is *based* on the MOTM-440 but NOT the same
because of the SMT parts not being an exact cross. It is close. And I don't
have any plans to put any other MOTM 5U-based designs in Euro.

 We are orphaned for the foreseeable future according to the present plans.

What about Oakley, CGS, STG, etc? And kits are STILL available from
Bridechamber.

Euro-format customers are benefiting on the road paved, in part, by my
kilo-dollar investment in 5U.  I like the idea of buying stuffed boards,
sans pots, jacks, and panels.

But what is the point? I still have to buy all these things for the
non-DIYers so I still have the inventory. I still have to lay the boards out
the same way. Now I have to have 2 sets of documentation, 2 sets of boards
to keep track of. All for me making less money so people can spend < 1 hour
wiring up 4 pots and 2 switches and 8 jacks? That is DIY enough? Something
tells me that will get boring fast. Is Bridechamber supposed to carry
panels, too? And the vertical BI pots? And NKK switches? And.......

Look, I COMPLETELY understand there is a group of people that think the
soldering/building is just as (if not MORE) fun and enjoyable as using the
modular. I suspect there is a subset of those people that use it 5% of the
time, that it's 95% in the building. And chances are they already have all
the MOTM, CGS, JH or whatever pc boards bought (some stashed away 'for a
rainy day') and want MORE MORE MORE.

But there is another 'reason' that thru-hole DIY is going away: there is
just so much you can do with the parts available. What are the chances of
something TRULY NEW AND DIFFERENT made from resistors, caps, transistors and
op amps? These synth circuits are now *43 years old*. 1000s of people have
tinkered with Electronotes and poured over every analog synth schematic ever
published. The only thing that remotely comes to mind is cloning Buchla
stuff and THEN you have people screaming "bad karma!" or "Not fair to Don!".
I have tried 3 times in the last 12 years to try to establish SOME dialog
with Don about it but he's not interested. I offered to license Serge
designs twice without interest. So, I can't go down that road without being
'the bad guy' even though LEGALLY I can. Ever wonder why there were never
MOTM-2xx modules?

Certainly, one can argue the MOTM lineup needs a 'refresh' as we say in
consumer electronics. The MOTM-800 can be a VC'd ADSR with looping (based on
the Frac version) and this can be entirely DIY thru-hole. The MOTM-190 can
convert over to the Frac 1190 design in thru-hole DIY. But really, these are
the only 2 that could benefit. All the others would be better suited to stay
the same (like the '410) or do SMT and DSP (like replace the '320 with the
Euro E355).

Just to address "added cost" of having my assembler insert & solder the
mechanical parts versus you doing it (to "save money"): they change me 5
cents a pin. So to place and solder a 3-position NKK toggle switch cost me
15 cents. The pots have 5 pins (3 for the pot + 2 mounting pins) so that is
a quarter. Jacks would have 3 pins so that is 15 cents. For a typical module
with 6 pots, 1 switch and 6 jacks that is only costing me $2.55. It's mice
nuts. Think about the TIME to make those same wire connections (at each
end!) for all these parts. That is 66 individual solder operations (panel
pots are just 3). If you can do 1 per minute let's call it an hour. I value
my time more than $2.55/hr and you should too :) But then again, I *GET*
that the POINT of DIY is to do that work.

But by me having that work done, I could sit down and assemble 25 modules a
DAY, easy. They could be 5U or MU with attaching the correct panel. You can
enjoy the use of them right out of the box and have them shipped from stock.
But not much cheaper, and I also suspect that if you are 100% honest with
yourself, you do not save that much (if any) money IF you place any sort of
value on your time (say $20/hr). The problem is: I cannot afford 'zero
dollars/hr' time for me. I was willing to do that 8-10 years ago, but not
now.

Paul S.

I seriously don't get why people are upset indicating that they invested
many thousands in their awesome MOTM synths and now they are "screwed"
because there isn't going to be any new Synth Tech MOTM designs in the
foreseeable future!??? They still have an incredible looking and sounding
modular synth, one of the very best in the business, arguably THE best! :-)
It's not like it's going to stop working or something. ;-)  Moog hasn't
built a module in a long time and the owners of those systems aren't
complaining about THEIR investments! lol

If you want kits to build for the sake of building but have everything that
you want that is available, get some BrideChamber kits, build them and sell
them on forums and Ebay etc. There are people who can't DIY and would love
to buy them. You say it wouldn't be profitable? Well . . . then why would
Paul do it? ;-)

I think the only reason why some of us are feeling frustrated comes from the awareness that there won't be any new "MOTM" modules in a MOTM format, there's a wide offer of motm format modules around but still we may feel as unnatural that MOTM itself is switching to a new format for the future. We didn't choose MOTM for the format alone but for its quality and originality of its designs and the 500 series (from which we are now excluded) is confirming that same quality and originality. A new MOTM module comes first in our wishing lists, so disappointment comes punctually, it is a natural fact. Paul, You may have your good reasons of course and it is not a waste of time if you try to express them (as you are doing already) to the MOTM community, we deserve it, we are faithful to our choices and to our passions as you are.
Enrico (Italy)

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "John L Rice" <Drummer@...> wrote:

>
> I seriously don't get why people are upset indicating that they invested
> many thousands in their awesome MOTM synths and now they are "screwed"
> because there isn't going to be any new Synth Tech MOTM designs in the
> foreseeable future!??? They still have an incredible looking and sounding
> modular synth, one of the very best in the business, arguably THE best! :-)
> It's not like it's going to stop working or something. ;-)  Moog hasn't
> built a module in a long time and the owners of those systems aren't
> complaining about THEIR investments! lol
> 
> If you want kits to build for the sake of building but have everything that
> you want that is available, get some BrideChamber kits, build them and sell
> them on forums and Ebay etc. There are people who can't DIY and would love
> to buy them. You say it wouldn't be profitable? Well . . . then why would
> Paul do it? ;-)
>

Richard Brewster
http://pugix.com

All I have to say is that I support whatever Paul S. decides to do. I 
recognize that analog modules are a niche market with inherently 
unstable suppliers.  Many are one-person shops.  I have often bought 
modules thinking that before long they would become unobtainable.  I am 
glad I got into MOTM when I did (2002).  Paul has done a fantastic job 
the past decade, what with all his job changes and moves, to keep MOTM 
going.  With all of that, he repaired my busted DIY e340 for a tiny 
fee.  I have no complaints.  Keep moving forward, Paul.  And thanks.

On 8/18/12 9:15 AM, Richard Brewster wrote:
> Richard Brewster
> http://pugix.com
>
>

Any answer to my question below? If the module is compelling enough, I have
no problem with $400. I just don't believe there's enough demand at $400 to
reach 100 units. And then we're back to not seeing anything at any price.

 

Also, what happened to the notion of a little production design, like
designing the PCBs for *multiple* formats. Main module PCBs with a
standardized connector for a format-specific daughterboard (yeah, a few
bucks more, but they could be standardized and end up cheap)?

 

If that's too ambitious then just add power connectors and whatever other
pads are needed for MOTM to the opposite end of the monolithic PCB. Have the
MOTM power connector soldered on along with the Euro hardware. Just make a
run where you save $2.55 + the cost of pots and jacks by not having them do
those operations. This is standard production stuff and doesn't really cost
to have them do.

 

Worst case when we retro-fit a Euro module to MOTM, we cut off the Euro
pots, jacks, etc. and solder wires the old fashioned way to the proper pads.
Bridechamber still gets to sell us MOTM panels and parts.

 

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
James
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 10:09 PM
To: 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 






A 50 unit minimum looks to me like an awfully high bar to reach. Especially
at $400 per. And the rest of the criteria isn't clear to me. Are you saying
you need 50 MOTM AND 50 MU (going by the $40,000 figure you throw out)
before we've got a run? Regardless, I don't see how this is going to happen.
Echoing Thomas' sentiment, my MOTM 'investment' has not been pretty.

 

Greg James

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:49 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 





This is sort of a 2-part MOTM issue

 

MOTM as DIY-based

 

Certainly since the first module the kits out-sold the assembled like 25:1.
In some modules probably 75:1. Things went OK until the RoHS directive
killed both the Switchcraft jacks and the Spectrol pots at once. It took
nearly 2 years to get those parts back and running, only to have Vishay
(that made the RoHS version) drive the price from $1.80 to $7.50. This
clogged the pipeline, blew up the backlog and it was not until BI came out
with the P260 family that I could finally get going. This is just on the
"business" side of things. 

 

So, I decided to have Scott at BrideChamber take over and I think he has
done a great job. The parts, kits, panels and pc boards are still there.

 

But what is missing? New offerings specifically for DIYers. (and some MOTM
kits I need to ship out, more on that later).

 

I have not decided yet if the ROI (return on investment) is worth it for
doing more DIY-specific MOTM modules. Right now I am thinking not.

 

MOTM as Assembled

 

The current MOTM modules were not engineered to be 'quick' to assemble, in
fact (and you know who you are) some folks think the longer it takes/the
more parts the better the overall fun factor. Which is exactly what DIYers
want but not exactly great for one-at-a-time assembly. It's not that the ROI
isn't good (it is) but the time required is a problem.

 

MOTM as a 'Hobby'

 

It started as a hobby and I want it to remain a hobby. I do NOT want to do
this 100% as my 'living'. But since Jan. it has been (and hopefully next
month will revert back to full hobby status). I have focused on Euro because
that is how I have to support my family. I have NOT ignored MOTM entirely
but yes Euro has "stolen" the bulk of time because it is necessary to do so.
I do not like doing this, it is not fair to 5U customers but it is just what
has to be done now.

 

I have interviewed twice recently and feel at least 1 of them will result in
full time, with health insurance benefits, employment. This will allow me to
then go back to 5U more and more. Note that I may have to physically move
(again) so there will be 3-4 weeks where not much will go on. May people
take holiday/vacation in August so it's a good time to move anyway. I will
not know for sure until next week. But I am optimistic.

 

Will there ever be new 5U stuff?

 

Yes, but as assembled. And I will start with going to Kickstarter
(www.kickstarter.com) in order to judge the demand. In this way, no money
exchanges hands until a goal is reached (in dollars, but that is just a
minimum number of modules). SMT tooling is expensive, like $900. Each pc
board run is $250 setup on the machines. The prices will be "high" (say in
the $400 range) initially. But with SMT assembly, I can go from the boards
in front of me to a finished, calibrated module in about 9 minutes. The
years of waiting are over, I can build 50 modules a week in my spare time.

 

I think offering a 50 module minimum run is fair and the way Kickstarter is
set up I can ship more than 50 but not LESS than 50. So if for example I
offer a 5U and a MU Cloud Generator both at $400 with 50 of each and there
is a dollar pledge over $40,000 then I would just make more and everyone
that pledged gets a module. I think this is fair, I do not even have to buy
parts until the goal is met, unlike the current way where I have to HOPE
there is a demand. I could split it and say "as long as I get 80 modules of
a mix of MU/5U we have a go".

 

BUT..I will NOT do this until EVERY current MOTM user has their modules from
me. I might tinker on the CAD system beforehand but nothing 'official' until
then.

 

And when will this be?

 

The honest answer: I have no idea. Will it be in 2012? Yes it will but not
going to say 'by Oct 1' or whatever. Because I never hit the dates anyway.
So instead of a watch or calendar I'm looking at the leaves of tress :-) A
LOT may happen in the next 6 weeks. I may not get a job offer and then the
5U time is what it is now.

 

If people think MOTM is 'dead' or in a 'death spiral' or they feel
'abandoned' they certainly have the data to point to that. And it's 100% on
me. But as Granny liked to say, "The proof is in the pudding". So, after I
get the MOTM backlog  shipped, and I post the modules to KickStarter (there
will be 3 of them) then the user base will decide MOTM's fate. 

 

Paul S.

Apologies to John - I didn't see his response until just now. Yeah - what he
said :-)

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: Greg James [mailto:gjames@...] 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 10:07 AM
To: gjames@...; 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 

Any answer to my question below? If the module is compelling enough, I have
no problem with $400. I just don't believe there's enough demand at $400 to
reach 100 units. And then we're back to not seeing anything at any price.

 

Also, what happened to the notion of a little production design, like
designing the PCBs for *multiple* formats. Main module PCBs with a
standardized connector for a format-specific daughterboard (yeah, a few
bucks more, but they could be standardized and end up cheap)?

 

If that's too ambitious then just add power connectors and whatever other
pads are needed for MOTM to the opposite end of the monolithic PCB. Have the
MOTM power connector soldered on along with the Euro hardware. Just make a
run where you save $2.55 + the cost of pots and jacks by not having them do
those operations. This is standard production stuff and doesn't really cost
to have them do.

 

Worst case when we retro-fit a Euro module to MOTM, we cut off the Euro
pots, jacks, etc. and solder wires the old fashioned way to the proper pads.
Bridechamber still gets to sell us MOTM panels and parts.

 

-Greg

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
James
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 10:09 PM
To: 'Paul Schreiber'; motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 





A 50 unit minimum looks to me like an awfully high bar to reach. Especially
at $400 per. And the rest of the criteria isn't clear to me. Are you saying
you need 50 MOTM AND 50 MU (going by the $40,000 figure you throw out)
before we've got a run? Regardless, I don't see how this is going to happen.
Echoing Thomas' sentiment, my MOTM 'investment' has not been pretty.

 

Greg James

 

  _____  

From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 8:49 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] 5xx series in a MOTM format

 

 

This is sort of a 2-part MOTM issue

 

MOTM as DIY-based

 

Certainly since the first module the kits out-sold the assembled like 25:1.
In some modules probably 75:1. Things went OK until the RoHS directive
killed both the Switchcraft jacks and the Spectrol pots at once. It took
nearly 2 years to get those parts back and running, only to have Vishay
(that made the RoHS version) drive the price from $1.80 to $7.50. This
clogged the pipeline, blew up the backlog and it was not until BI came out
with the P260 family that I could finally get going. This is just on the
"business" side of things. 

 

So, I decided to have Scott at BrideChamber take over and I think he has
done a great job. The parts, kits, panels and pc boards are still there.

 

But what is missing? New offerings specifically for DIYers. (and some MOTM
kits I need to ship out, more on that later).

 

I have not decided yet if the ROI (return on investment) is worth it for
doing more DIY-specific MOTM modules. Right now I am thinking not.

 

MOTM as Assembled

 

The current MOTM modules were not engineered to be 'quick' to assemble, in
fact (and you know who you are) some folks think the longer it takes/the
more parts the better the overall fun factor. Which is exactly what DIYers
want but not exactly great for one-at-a-time assembly. It's not that the ROI
isn't good (it is) but the time required is a problem.

 

MOTM as a 'Hobby'

 

It started as a hobby and I want it to remain a hobby. I do NOT want to do
this 100% as my 'living'. But since Jan. it has been (and hopefully next
month will revert back to full hobby status). I have focused on Euro because
that is how I have to support my family. I have NOT ignored MOTM entirely
but yes Euro has "stolen" the bulk of time because it is necessary to do so.
I do not like doing this, it is not fair to 5U customers but it is just what
has to be done now.

 

I have interviewed twice recently and feel at least 1 of them will result in
full time, with health insurance benefits, employment. This will allow me to
then go back to 5U more and more. Note that I may have to physically move
(again) so there will be 3-4 weeks where not much will go on. May people
take holiday/vacation in August so it's a good time to move anyway. I will
not know for sure until next week. But I am optimistic.

 

Will there ever be new 5U stuff?

 

Yes, but as assembled. And I will start with going to Kickstarter
(www.kickstarter.com) in order to judge the demand. In this way, no money
exchanges hands until a goal is reached (in dollars, but that is just a
minimum number of modules). SMT tooling is expensive, like $900. Each pc
board run is $250 setup on the machines. The prices will be "high" (say in
the $400 range) initially. But with SMT assembly, I can go from the boards
in front of me to a finished, calibrated module in about 9 minutes. The
years of waiting are over, I can build 50 modules a week in my spare time.

 

I think offering a 50 module minimum run is fair and the way Kickstarter is
set up I can ship more than 50 but not LESS than 50. So if for example I
offer a 5U and a MU Cloud Generator both at $400 with 50 of each and there
is a dollar pledge over $40,000 then I would just make more and everyone
that pledged gets a module. I think this is fair, I do not even have to buy
parts until the goal is met, unlike the current way where I have to HOPE
there is a demand. I could split it and say "as long as I get 80 modules of
a mix of MU/5U we have a go".

 

BUT..I will NOT do this until EVERY current MOTM user has their modules from
me. I might tinker on the CAD system beforehand but nothing 'official' until
then.

 

And when will this be?

 

The honest answer: I have no idea. Will it be in 2012? Yes it will but not
going to say 'by Oct 1' or whatever. Because I never hit the dates anyway.
So instead of a watch or calendar I'm looking at the leaves of tress :-) A
LOT may happen in the next 6 weeks. I may not get a job offer and then the
5U time is what it is now.

 

If people think MOTM is 'dead' or in a 'death spiral' or they feel
'abandoned' they certainly have the data to point to that. And it's 100% on
me. But as Granny liked to say, "The proof is in the pudding". So, after I
get the MOTM backlog  shipped, and I post the modules to KickStarter (there
will be 3 of them) then the user base will decide MOTM's fate. 

 

Paul S.

John,

This is my personal situation, so I'm not trying to generalize this to
anyone else.

I made a decision to standardize on the MOTM format back in 2003. Between
2003 and 2008 I built a MOTM format system that consumes over 8 2-row cases
(~250 modules). I bought "survival" parts and kits for the inevitable. I got
extra power supplies, knobs, pots, ICs, etc. etc.

All told, I've got the equivalent of an expensive car sitting here that is
depreciating, not holding its value. Used MOTM format modules are regularly
selling for less than their kit prices used to be. Ironically, the only
modules I have that are increasing in value are the ones designed by
Jeurgen, and he never sold anything more than PCBs!

From a purely financial standpoint, the MOTM format is losing it's value
because Euro (which was supposed to be cheap crap according to everyone back
in 2003) now has all the new, innovative modules, including Paul's. And
Paul, one of the people decrying the Euro format back then, is now all-in on
Euro. So the message from the "father of MOTM" is it's dead.

Nobody in their right mind would pay the same price I paid for my system
today because the future is Euro. If I had to do it all over again, I
wouldn't choose MOTM. But in the meantime, I'm enjoying what I've built, and
getting lost in my music. I would have preferred that when I can't use it
anymore, I'll at least get my money back, but that's probably not going to
happen.

-Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John L
Rice
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format

I seriously don't get why people are upset indicating that they invested
many thousands in their awesome MOTM synths and now they are "screwed"
because there isn't going to be any new Synth Tech MOTM designs in the
foreseeable future!??? They still have an incredible looking and sounding
modular synth, one of the very best in the business, arguably THE best! :-)
It's not like it's going to stop working or something. ;-)  Moog hasn't
built a module in a long time and the owners of those systems aren't
complaining about THEIR investments! lol

If you want kits to build for the sake of building but have everything that
you want that is available, get some BrideChamber kits, build them and sell
them on forums and Ebay etc. There are people who can't DIY and would love
to buy them. You say it wouldn't be profitable? Well . . . then why would
Paul do it? ;-)



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Greg,

I don't think you'll have to worry, only if you want to sell it in the near
future. If you wait until it gets to vintage status, ORIGINAL Synth Tech
MOTM modules with the original panels and components etc etc that haven't
been made in 20 years. ;-) MOTM 5U may never get as crazy as Moog modules
but, when they were still being manufactured they were really expensive for
the times, then check what they went for in the later 80's early 90's, then
see what even small and poorly maintained systems are going for today!
(example: a band mate bought a used MiniMoog in the mid 80's for $175 and
then a few years later sold it to me for $125! They go for $3000 to $5000
these days.)

But it seems to me that investment concerns are only secondary? If a quick
ROI was the primary goal, then folks should have watched the market and
trends and sold their MOTM modulars when they could have gotten more for
them then Paul was charging? 

Anyways, I have a nice smallish Eurorack system now in addition to my big
mixed 5U system. While the Eurorack stuff is quite awesome, it has crossed
my mind several times just to sell it all because, the 5U stuff is
definitely more enjoyable to work with for me and  . . . I hate to start a
crap storm but . . . I'm pretty sure the 5u stuff sounds better to me!
<ducking>

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg James [mailto:gjames@...]
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:21 AM
> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: 'John L Rice'
> Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format
> 
> John,
> 
> This is my personal situation, so I'm not trying to generalize this to
> anyone else.
> 
> I made a decision to standardize on the MOTM format back in 2003. Between
> 2003 and 2008 I built a MOTM format system that consumes over 8 2-row
cases
> (~250 modules). I bought "survival" parts and kits for the inevitable. I
got
> extra power supplies, knobs, pots, ICs, etc. etc.
> 
> All told, I've got the equivalent of an expensive car sitting here that is
> depreciating, not holding its value. Used MOTM format modules are
regularly
> selling for less than their kit prices used to be. Ironically, the only
> modules I have that are increasing in value are the ones designed by
> Jeurgen, and he never sold anything more than PCBs!
> 
> >From a purely financial standpoint, the MOTM format is losing it's value
> because Euro (which was supposed to be cheap crap according to everyone
back
> in 2003) now has all the new, innovative modules, including Paul's. And
> Paul, one of the people decrying the Euro format back then, is now all-in
on
> Euro. So the message from the "father of MOTM" is it's dead.
> 
> Nobody in their right mind would pay the same price I paid for my system
> today because the future is Euro. If I had to do it all over again, I
> wouldn't choose MOTM. But in the meantime, I'm enjoying what I've built,
and
> getting lost in my music. I would have preferred that when I can't use it
> anymore, I'll at least get my money back, but that's probably not going to
> happen.
> 
> -Greg
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
L
> Rice
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 AM
> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format
> 
> I seriously don't get why people are upset indicating that they invested
> many thousands in their awesome MOTM synths and now they are "screwed"
> because there isn't going to be any new Synth Tech MOTM designs in the
> foreseeable future!??? They still have an incredible looking and sounding
> modular synth, one of the very best in the business, arguably THE best!
:-)
> It's not like it's going to stop working or something. ;-)  Moog hasn't
> built a module in a long time and the owners of those systems aren't
> complaining about THEIR investments! lol
> 
> If you want kits to build for the sake of building but have everything
that
> you want that is available, get some BrideChamber kits, build them and
sell

> them on forums and Ebay etc. There are people who can't DIY and would love
> to buy them. You say it wouldn't be profitable? Well . . . then why would
> Paul do it? ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

At 10:21 PM 8/17/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:

>>I like the idea of buying stuffed boards, sans pots, jacks, and panels.
>
>But what is the point?

The point, which you've totally missed, is that in recognition of the 
fact that you don't want to have 2 sets of documentation and 2 sets 
of boards to keep track of, we're asking, "hey, can you deliver 
stuffed euro boards sans pots, jacks, and panels to save us from 
having to go through the hassle and hazard of desoldering pots, 
jacks, and switches, and paying for panels and jacks we don't need?"


>Look, I COMPLETELY understand there is a group of people that think the
>soldering/building is just as (if not MORE) fun and enjoyable as using the
>modular.

I think I've gotten my fill of it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  And 
if anyone hasn't, there are Bridechamber, Oakley, and others 
providing 5U thru-hole DIY pcbs.  Believe me, I'd RATHER have an 
fully assembled 5U MOTM-355 Morphing Dual LFO.  HOWEVER, knowing that 
you have your hands full developing and shipping modules for the Euro 
market, I'm asking, what's the MINIMUM you can do that will make most 
of your old 5U customers happier than they are now?

We WANT to buy your new modules.  In a perfect world, you'd deliver 
them in 5U assembled.  The current reality requires buying an 
assembled euro module, then disassembling it, making a custom panel, 
and wiring it up.  Is there a workable middle ground?


>Certainly, one can argue the MOTM lineup needs a 'refresh' as we say in
>consumer electronics. The MOTM-800 can be a VC'd ADSR with looping (based on
>the Frac version) and this can be entirely DIY thru-hole.

I'd rather have a fully assembled MOTM-805 that's SMT with a built-in 
THAT2180 VCA.  ;)  But knowing the market realities that you've laid 
out, I don't expect that to happen.  :(


>Just to address "added cost" of having my assembler insert & solder the
>mechanical parts versus you doing it (to "save money"): they change me 5
>cents a pin. So to place and solder a 3-position NKK toggle switch cost me
>15 cents. The pots have 5 pins (3 for the pot + 2 mounting pins) so that is
>a quarter. Jacks would have 3 pins so that is 15 cents. For a typical module
>with 6 pots, 1 switch and 6 jacks that is only costing me $2.55. It's mice
>nuts. Think about the TIME to make those same wire connections (at each
>end!) for all these parts. That is 66 individual solder operations (panel
>pots are just 3). If you can do 1 per minute let's call it an hour. I value
>my time more than $2.55/hr and you should too :) But then again, I *GET*
>that the POINT of DIY is to do that work.

Now, can you *GET* that I and others don't care about the DIY 
aspect?  In fact, I want to reduce the amount of DIY that's currently 
required to adapt one of your euro modules to 5U!

The crucial question: would there be significant setup cost to run 
off 40-50 euro pcbs sans pots, jacks, and switches, and would that 
make testing the boards too difficult?  If not, great, as it would 
save us the time and hazard of desoldering the pots, jacks, and switches.


>The problem is: I cannot afford 'zero
>dollars/hr' time for me. I was willing to do that 8-10 years ago, but not now.

And I'm not expecting that.  I'm trying to find a way for you to sell 
50 more of everything you make with a minimal amount of extra effort 
on your part.  PLEASE try to understand what I'm asking rather than 
dismissing it as a case of DIYitus.

At the very least, on future E-series pcbs, could you add mounting 
holes at the corners and an unstuffed header pin field that has all 
the pot and switch lines on it (like there are for the jacks), and 
work out a deal with Scott or someone else to sell them boards minus 
panels?  PLEASE?  If you can deliver partially unstuffed pcbs, all 
the better.  Let somebody else design the front panel, and pot/switch 
and jack boards that can plug into the main board with a ribbon cable 
like Oakley modules.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like a 
little bit of effort on your part to support the 5U market for your 
modules would be worth your while.

Jeffrey

(apologies to anyone who got this more than once ... thank Yahoo...)


 
> I think I've gotten my fill of it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  And 
> if anyone hasn't, there are Bridechamber, Oakley, and others 
> providing 5U thru-hole DIY pcbs.  Believe me, I'd RATHER have an 
> fully assembled 5U MOTM-355 Morphing Dual LFO.  HOWEVER, knowing that 
> you have your hands full developing and shipping modules for the Euro 
> market, I'm asking, what's the MINIMUM you can do that will make most 
> of your old 5U customers happier than they are now?
> 
> We WANT to buy your new modules.  In a perfect world, you'd deliver 
> them in 5U assembled.  The current reality requires buying an 
> assembled euro module, then disassembling it, making a custom panel, 
> and wiring it up.  Is there a workable middle ground?
 
Adding my 2 bits as someone who wants diversity in the MOTM format and has no vested interest in the DIY aspect of it.  I bought a bunch of kits as a cost-effective way of getting the modular I wanted, and I have a sense of accomplishment that I built as much of my rig as I did (about half, at this point, the rest being pre-built, second-hand, or third-party).  If kits are no longer cost-effective to manufacture, then I'm totally fine with ordering prebuilt modules as long as the price is right and it doesn't take *years* for an order to trickle in.

The Kickstarter idea sounds like a valid way to judge the demand for a given module in real terms (ie, people are voting with real money, not just clamoring for something and then back-pedalling when it comes time to place an order). If you get the number of pre-orders you need and can then turn around those orders quickly, then great.  If the demand falls short, then that says there isn't a real market for that module (at the moment, anyway).

Anyway, count me as 'still committed to MOTM as a format, even if that has meant giving money to Oakley/Krisp1 and various ebayers instead of Synthesis Tech in recent years'.

JN

The point, which you've totally missed, is that in recognition of the fact
that you don't want to have 2 sets of documentation and 2 sets of boards to
keep track of, we're asking, "hey, can you deliver stuffed euro boards sans
pots, jacks, and panels to save us from having to go through the hassle and
hazard of desoldering pots, jacks, and switches, and paying for panels and
jacks we don't need?"

Check the archives, I did this already. I sold *10* RR E350s versions
assembled and maybe like 12-14 board sets of the E340/E350 combined. I sold
around 8-10 sets of the E560/E580 DIY board sets. That's it!

I think I've gotten my fill of it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  And if
anyone hasn't, there are Bridechamber, Oakley, and others providing 5U
thru-hole DIY pcbs.  Believe me, I'd RATHER have an fully assembled 5U
MOTM-355 Morphing Dual LFO.  HOWEVER, knowing that you have your hands full
developing and shipping modules for the Euro market, I'm asking, what's the
MINIMUM you can do that will make most of your old 5U customers happier than
they are now?

It's not that much of an effort (I will say same effort and LESS hassle) to
take a known working Euro schematic and lay it out for 5U/MU. Maybe 2 8 hour
sessions and then send Scott the locations and have him make me panels. Once
I have the 2 stuffed boards (the jacks are on their own board) it would take
me 8 minutes per module to assemble, test and put in the box. Call it 7 per
hour. So in 1 8 hour session on a weekend that is ALL 50 modules per format.
1 full weekend end = 100 modules, sitting in the boxes ready to go out on
Monday. But even if that time doubles, it's 2 weekends and done. 

We WANT to buy your new modules.  In a perfect world, you'd deliver them in
5U assembled.  The current reality requires buying an assembled euro module,
then disassembling it, making a custom panel, and wiring it up.  Is there a
workable middle ground?

See above.

Now, can you *GET* that I and others don't care about the DIY aspect?  In
fact, I want to reduce the amount of DIY that's currently required to adapt
one of your euro modules to 5U!

You wouldn't need to if the Kickstarter thing works.

The crucial question: would there be significant setup cost to run off 40-50
euro pcbs sans pots, jacks, and switches, and would that make testing the
boards too difficult?  If not, great, as it would save us the time and
hazard of desoldering the pots, jacks, and switches.

I would rather just do it properly and use the 5U format, with the correct
knobs, grid spacing, etc. and cover BOTH sets of people: DIYer and
non-DIYers. Both get assembled modules quickly.

If the 'group message' is that we desire new modules in a timely manner and
the DIY aspect is not the #1 factor, then what is wrong with the Kickstarter
approach? OK, you need an Amazon account (free and the do NOT spam). That's
about it. I've used it to buy stuff maybe 8 times so far. Painless.

Paul S.

From Paul S. in response to my mis-sent first post:

---
> The Kickstarter idea sounds like a valid way to judge the demand for a given module in real terms (ie, people are voting with real money, not just clamoring for something and then back-pedalling when it comes time to place an order).
> If you get the number of pre-orders you need and can then turn around those orders quickly, then great.  If the demand falls short, then that says there isn't a real market for that module (at the moment, anyway).

This is my point *exactly*.

> Anyway, count me as 'still committed to MOTM as a format, even if that has meant giving money to Oakley/Krisp1 and various ebayers instead of Synthesis Tech in recent years'.

And why do some people think this is a 'bad thing'? I don't.

Paul S.
---

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "jneilnyc" <jneil@...> wrote:

>
> 
> (apologies to anyone who got this more than once ... thank Yahoo...)
> 
> 
>  
> > I think I've gotten my fill of it, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  And 
> > if anyone hasn't, there are Bridechamber, Oakley, and others 
> > providing 5U thru-hole DIY pcbs.  Believe me, I'd RATHER have an 
> > fully assembled 5U MOTM-355 Morphing Dual LFO.  HOWEVER, knowing that 
> > you have your hands full developing and shipping modules for the Euro 
> > market, I'm asking, what's the MINIMUM you can do that will make most 
> > of your old 5U customers happier than they are now?
> > 
> > We WANT to buy your new modules.  In a perfect world, you'd deliver 
> > them in 5U assembled.  The current reality requires buying an 
> > assembled euro module, then disassembling it, making a custom panel, 
> > and wiring it up.  Is there a workable middle ground?
>  
> Adding my 2 bits as someone who wants diversity in the MOTM format and has no vested interest in the DIY aspect of it.  I bought a bunch of kits as a cost-effective way of getting the modular I wanted, and I have a sense of accomplishment that I built as much of my rig as I did (about half, at this point, the rest being pre-built, second-hand, or third-party).  If kits are no longer cost-effective to manufacture, then I'm totally fine with ordering prebuilt modules as long as the price is right and it doesn't take *years* for an order to trickle in.
> 
> The Kickstarter idea sounds like a valid way to judge the demand for a given module in real terms (ie, people are voting with real money, not just clamoring for something and then back-pedalling when it comes time to place an order). If you get the number of pre-orders you need and can then turn around those orders quickly, then great.  If the demand falls short, then that says there isn't a real market for that module (at the moment, anyway).
> 
> Anyway, count me as 'still committed to MOTM as a format, even if that has meant giving money to Oakley/Krisp1 and various ebayers instead of Synthesis Tech in recent years'.
> 
> JN
>

Fascinating to watch this conversation.

I for one committed to the 5U format completely a while ago and don't
plan to switch.  I can see the practicality of Paul's choice to develop
for the Euro crowd, yet it's a blow to the ego that 5U isn't the highest
priority any more.  I guess I'll play the "elite bastard" playing card
and stick to my position that 5U is the best and always will be, and if
there aren't as many modules, well then, the ones I do have are better
than the same thing from any other vendor.  I don't care if the newest
shiny bits aren't available in 5U, I've got enough 5U modules to do
everything I need to.

That said, of course I'll try to buy any new MOTM modules that come
out...  :)

Regards,
Doug

Interesting back and forth going on here, for what seems to be the same type of back and forth going on 10 plus years ago, but now mostly about 'format'...really? 

I guess I just don't get why this thing called "Synth-DIY", gets so tangled and confused with: "I'd like to build a modular synth kit" or "I gotta have that module that can do this weird thing" and all the way up to:  "It's got to look like this".  Maybe I am completely wrong here but I've always felt that a synth, of whatever breed, is about sound mainly. 

Well, these are indeed all the joys of modular synthesis, but do not necessarily always cross over into the: "I'm gonna design and make my own synth module (or whole system)". 

While the whole world-wide community, or those better known from here and other now fairly classic "modern" modular  instigators, have always embraced the entire range of skill-sets that one may enter in upon,  I think it's fair to note that DIY also carries with it some sense of learning, innovation, progression, etc.  Also some tolerance and acceptance of changes good or bad that may occur.  I've personally not seen or known of anyone who has made much money in this endeavor, so it's been usually by their own interests in the topic, that information even gets shared at all.  I do feel that one's family, financial responsibilities, etc  (i.e. eating and such) are a wee bit more important than 'broken promises' in a very precarious, by nature, tiny little cottage industry. 

While I choose MOTM back in the now historic early 2000 period, (a rather large system at that, and for probably all the same reasons as anyone choose), I did so without any feeling that there was suppose to be any written or spoken guarantee that it would be fully supported/developed in 10-20 years.  I mean: this wasn't a new line from Yamaha, Roland , or Korg...  It was a DIY thing, and way better than most as far as the quality, solid-ness of what one could put together and make some noise with.  But the other offerings out there are really just as cool and viable as anything.  Just get used to solder fumes, and getting your fingers burnt, and you are most of the way there. 

I've long since gotten over the format thing.  Yeah, it took some time, but now I'm sorta drooling over the very cool and very new concept modules coming out in that format.  Just can't afford any of them now!  But, if/when that opportunity arises - sell the house, car, kids, to get some - I'm just gonna build me a Euro cabinet to put the darn things in.  Can't understand why a 'modular' cannot be a 'modular', right?  That's the whole point!  Yeah graphics are different, bla, bla, but that's what's so cool about "Modular". 

And really, probably to really anger some, but put a smile on the face of others:  DIY really comes down to: eventually learning how to layout and make your own PCB, get your owns parts, make your own panel, put it together and pray it works...then spend way too much time debugging the darn thing when it doesn't - then finally: have a working module that goes: Bleezle-Blorp - Winka-Doo.  And it's the closest you'll ever get to the spirit of true DIY.  And very much worth it!  Other than that, maybe you're just a person who can follow good instructions and put together a kit...That's cool too, but not really very DIY. It matters not though actually.

But where there's a will there's a way and I'm sure most here would agree that the 'synth obsession' thing, is for all purposes really some sort of strange clinically undiagnosed condition.  I know this because I have many, many musician friends, much more capable than I, who could and will verify this on a stack of Bibles after seeing my beast - heavily modified.

So,  don't be bummed cause 5U isn't currently going to be 'around'.  It IS.  Just start looking into how to make any of what's out there already (Tons-O-Schematics) in 5U format.  It's part and parcel to what DIY is.  Again, I really do not wish to demean anyone who does not have confidence or current skills in this process, but if your crazy enough to be doing this in the first place, then I believe you do have the where-withal, to make, break, and innovate - and keep 5U going along till the cows come home. 

Best All, 

Rog

On 2012-08-18 01:01 -0700, John L Rice wrote:

> I seriously don't get why people are upset indicating that
> they invested many thousands in their awesome MOTM synths and
> now they are "screwed" because there isn't going to be any new
> Synth Tech MOTM designs in the foreseeable future!??? They
> still have an incredible looking and sounding modular synth,
> one of the very best in the business, arguably THE best! :-)
> It's not like it's going to stop working or something. ;-)

A modular costs more than an equivalent mono synth so why get
one ? For some, part of the reason is that they expect to be
able to upgrade it by buying new (or more) modules.

Good thing that third parties keep making MOTM format modules.

DIY (and I don't mean kits) is a huge time sink but it gives you
a certain degree of independence.

-- 
Andr\ufffd Majorel http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/

Definitely yes Ken - modulars do have unique and distinct things of their own regarding the 'human interface' aspect.  But that all does chisel down to sound eventually after all - right?   Unless I've been missing something no one has explained to me...could be possible!! 
I'm not really talking fidelity here, just synth sound craziness. 

So, I do see the debate, but it seems pointless as we're not talking a viable industry  - at least in USA now - that is sustaining itself wholly anyway.   I mean really: Moog exists now because of legend and name alone, I don't think they're selling much of the new stuff and making tons-o-money because of anything other than that name?!?  Personally I like my MOTM/Blacet/CGS/Oakley/my own wierdnesses/Thing, better than a Mark III as is doesn't have half the cool stuff thats now in mine - and the modular world in general.

The euro modules I've seen are definitely all factory builts things, not a horrible thing, but obviously the same place is making other stuff which affords it's 'luxury' - maybe wrong word - to make a few synth modules here/there along with their base business. 
I'm not overly knowledgeable about really how the euro synth industry operates, but it's apparently doing some things right...business-wise... 

Again definitely yes, human interface is a factor - and I only think the smaller euro is perhaps ok cause it's less real-estate when I'm already out of room.  But, as I'm old and shakey: much prefer the 5U that I can hopefully hit the right pot or switch without bumping the adjacent knob or whatever...and don't have to squint too hard.  But I still need glasses anyway!   Now that's just a crotchety old guy thing...but the euro is coming out with some rather new concepts that I think are really cool.  Of course, from what I said in previous post:  just turn them into 5U - and be like really DIY...right?

BTW: Might I have the euro racks that you do not use or like?  I promise I'll pay for all the shipping costs. 

;)

Rog

And you've been sitting on all the old Stooge panel silk screens for years
with no sensibility to give them to somebody (i.e. Scott at Bridechamber)
who might actually DO SOMETHING with them? Go back to your 9090 empire.

-----Original Message-----
From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug
Wellington
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 5:58 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format

Fascinating to watch this conversation.

I for one committed to the 5U format completely a while ago and don't
plan to switch.  I can see the practicality of Paul's choice to develop
for the Euro crowd, yet it's a blow to the ego that 5U isn't the highest
priority any more.  I guess I'll play the "elite bastard" playing card
and stick to my position that 5U is the best and always will be, and if
there aren't as many modules, well then, the ones I do have are better
than the same thing from any other vendor.  I don't care if the newest
shiny bits aren't available in 5U, I've got enough 5U modules to do
everything I need to.

That said, of course I'll try to buy any new MOTM modules that come
out...  :)

Regards,
Doug


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Previously:
> And you've been sitting on all the old Stooge panel silk screens for years
> with no sensibility to give them to somebody (i.e. Scott at Bridechamber)
> who might actually DO SOMETHING with them? Go back to your 9090 empire.

OK, before I slink back and hide under my rock again, I'll say two
things:

1) I'm not sure what you mean by "DO SOMETHING with them," as I have
made scores of panels from those silkscreens.

2) I have nothing to do with the 9090.  That is Trev's project.  I'm
certainly glad to have four of them, but I'm not sure that qualifies as
an "empire".  If you don't like me, please don't project that onto Trev.

Regards,
Doug

At 02:30 PM 8/18/2012, Paul Schreiber wrote:

>Check the archives, I did this already. I sold *10* RR E350s versions
>assembled and maybe like 12-14 board sets of the E340/E350 combined. I sold
>around 8-10 sets of the E560/E580 DIY board sets. That's it!

I checked the archives.  They show that at the same time you 
announced a limited feature set "limited edition", you also said a 
"super-duper" version could be ready in 6 months.  Nothing kills 
sales of a current product like announcing a forthcoming better 
version.  This is a well-known business phenomenon - the "Osborne 
Effect", one that you should be familiar with.  I, and I'm sure many 
others, passed on the RR version in hope that you would ship the 
super-duper version.  And we're still waiting, 2 1/2 years later.  :(

I would be quite surprised if there wasn't a halo effect that 
negatively affected E340, E560, and E580 board set sales, too.


>It's not that much of an effort (I will say same effort and LESS hassle) to
>take a known working Euro schematic and lay it out for 5U/MU.

But then there's the tooling cost to stuff a 2nd board, and the 2nd 
set of documentation, etc.  The point of my suggestion was to bypass 
all that.  ;)


>I would rather just do it properly and use the 5U format, with the correct
>knobs, grid spacing, etc. and cover BOTH sets of people: DIYer and
>non-DIYers. Both get assembled modules quickly.

Fine, that's my preference too, IF IT'S REALISTIC, given your 
historic lack of time to devote to SynthTech projects.  The operative 
word here is "quickly".


>If the 'group message' is that we desire new modules in a timely manner and
>the DIY aspect is not the #1 factor, then what is wrong with the Kickstarter
>approach?

SMT & DIY don't mix, so I'm pretty sure the DIY aspect is not a 
factor at all.  Timely?  God, yes!

The problem I see is, "there is no guarantee that people that post 
projects on Kickstarter will deliver on their projects."  Your long 
track record of unrealistic delivery dates will undoubtedly 
discourage some people from committing their money.  I'd love for you 
to prove the doubters (including myself) wrong, but I would bet 
against it if I was a betting man.  :(

I'm not trying to grind an axe here.  I'm just not good at 
sugarcoating things, and I tend to be pragmatic in looking at other 
people's behavior (not so much with my own - ouch!).  Please take it 
all at face value - I just want to know what's a realistic 
expectation for your 5U customers with regards to E-series modules.

Sincerely wishing you success + new 5U MOTM modules,

Jeffrey

PS Looking forward to a possible MOTM-370.  Seems like the front 
panel has to be at least 5Ux5U.  Awesome!

"1) I'm not sure what you mean by "DO SOMETHING with them," as I have
made scores of panels from those silkscreens."

Well that's good news then. I'd like to order:
 4x OMS-410 2U version Stooge Panels
 4x MOTM-120R Stooge Panels

And that's just for starters. I've got a bit of digging to do, but I seem to
recall a couple of other Stooge Panels I need.

Please let me know how much you want, how I should pay you, and when you can
deliver them. You can reply through the mail list so everyone can see that
you're actively supplying Stooge Panels. I'll even pay a 10% penalty to you
as compensation for falsely accusing you of sitting on the screens. I've
been waiting for these for years. I was resigned to screening them myself.

-Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: motm@yahoogroups.com [mailto:motm@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug
Wellington
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 2:16 AM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] Re: 5xx series in a MOTM format

Previously:
> And you've been sitting on all the old Stooge panel silk screens for years
> with no sensibility to give them to somebody (i.e. Scott at Bridechamber)
> who might actually DO SOMETHING with them? Go back to your 9090 empire.

OK, before I slink back and hide under my rock again, I'll say two
things:

1) I'm not sure what you mean by "DO SOMETHING with them," as I have
made scores of panels from those silkscreens.

2) I have nothing to do with the 9090.  That is Trev's project.  I'm
certainly glad to have four of them, but I'm not sure that qualifies as
an "empire".  If you don't like me, please don't project that onto Trev.

Regards,
Doug


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links