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Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by Spacemodular

Howdy All,

Not trying to start a flame war here, but I found John
M.'s remarks from a very recent Analogue Heaven post
regarding the Wiard intriguing - so I thought I would
send them to the Wiard list to see if Grant (or anyone
with a 300 series)could shed some light on these 2
items listed in the post below:

Jack placement (centering)

Functionality of the LEDs on the top of the panel

Personally, I like the graphics and they never seemed
sloppy to me in relation to the jack field.  But on
the other hand, I never really scrutinized it too
much.

I know that the LEDs have functionality despite the
extra added "Gee Whiz" factor (which I especially
like), but I didn't feel I could answer John's post in
an accurate knowledgable way, since I don't own a
system (I just have a pair of the 1209
Joystick/Triggers and am looking forward to getting a
1210 <model #?> Noise Ring when they become available)
and can't explain the functionality of the LEDs.

Wired, Wierd, Whatever...

Best,

Nick
Chicago

Below:  Post I am referring to above.

--- Konkuro@aol.com wrote:
> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:24:12 -0500
> From: Konkuro@aol.com
> To: analogue@hyperreal.org
> Subject: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which
> 
> Peter wrote:
> 
> >But one comment - IMHO, anyone who has a problem
> with the look of Wiard has
> probbably never seen one in person.  Trust me, they
> are quite compelling.
> Very interesting looking.  Photography is tricky
> because the celtic
> etchings, being silver, will catch a lot of light
> and tend to show more
> contrast in a photo than when you see them with your
> eye.  Much subtler in
> the flesh.<
> 
> The Riverdance graphics are a matter of taste, I
> guess. The modules do indeed seem to be very well
> built, but the panel layout strikes me as sloppy.
> Jacks aren't centered and overrun the Celtic
> graphics on the left. Callouts seem busy and ill
> placed.  And the line of tri-colored LEDs at the top
> seems more for show than functionality.
> 
> johnm


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Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by grantrichter2001

> Not trying to start a flame war here, but I found John
> M.'s remarks from a very recent Analogue Heaven post
> regarding the Wiard intriguing - so I thought I would
> send them to the Wiard list to see if Grant (or anyone
> with a 300 series)could shed some light on these 2
> items listed in the post below:
> 
> Jack placement (centering)
> 
> Functionality of the LEDs on the top of the panel

The human race has traditionally recognized two distinct classes 
of objects: Functional objects and aesthetic objects. 

The difference is that functional objects can become obsolete 
and be replaced by more modern designs. They decrease in 
value with the passage of time.

Aesthetic objects never become obsolete and they always 
increase in value with time. No one claims the Mona Lisa is 
obsolete (but someone surely will, just to prove me wrong ;^) 
and it is worth a LOT more today, than when it was first painted.

The acoustic violin was not "replaced" by the music synthesizer 
because musical instruments are aesthetic objects and do not 
become obsolete. Musical instruments are traditionally 
ornamented to make them more pleasing to be around, and to 
plainly mark them as aesthetic objects deserving of thoughtful 
consideration and careful treatment.

The reason that analog modulars almost became extinct is 
because their inventors viewed them as functional objects, and 
so they were presented as such. Because the inventors 
presented them as functional objects, their customers saw them 
as replaceable, and this is why the University of Chicago put 
their Buchla in the dumpster when they got their TX-816 digital 
synth. But a University would never think of throwing away a violin 
because they bought a cello.

The Wiard has the added expense of ornamentation to clearly 
mark it as being in the tradition of musical instruments as an 
aesthetic object, and not a replaceable device.

The Wiard is the first electronic modular deliberately designed to 
correct the oversight of presenting a music synthesizer as only a 
functional object. The Wiard is presented as an aesthetic object 
which will not become obsolete, and will always increase in 
value. Even today, second hand Wiard instruments sell for more 
than the new price. 

People make nonsensical remarks about the graphics, because 
they are confusing the Wiard with other objects called "modular 
synthesizers". These were envisioned by their designers as 
functional objects, and are not in the same class as the Wiard.

Some people just don't get it.

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by Mike Fisher

My two cents:

The LEDs on the oscillator are indeed useful, especially if you're 
using it at low freqs to drive other functions. I'll grant you (no pun 
intended, ha) that at high frequencies those LEDs fire too fast to 
read. As for the usefulness of LEDs in general, well not everyone is 
into the idea of system status visibility, but I for one wouldn't want 
it any other way. The LEDs on the other modules are also useful, making 
it easy to see at a glance things like envelope status, sequencer step, 
waveform selection/waveform bank, levels, and so on. When you're 
dealing with a complex instrument (and especially with a complex 
patch), it really does help to -see- what some of the modules are 
doing. This is basic human factors stuff.

I'm personally ambivalent about the celtic graphics. Some people like 
'em, some hate 'em, but in the end who cares? As long as they don't get 
in your way (and they don't, at least not to me), what difference does 
it make? This is simply a matter of personal preference. The EMS Synthi 
looks pretty odd to me, but like most people I choose synths based on 
how they sound and what they can do. Well, okay I like blinky lights 
too but dammit that's not the point.

It's indisputable that compared to most modulars, there are a lot of 
labels on the panels of a Wiard, but when you have this kind of 
functional density it's inevitable, unless you want to replace the 
labels with symbols - not exactly a great idea (labels + symbols works 
nicely, though). I don't find having this many labels to be a problem, 
it's just a reality of having this many patch points.  To me the 
placement of the labels seems pretty normal.

I don't really get the bit about jack placement. They look fine to me.


Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 08:51 PM, Spacemodular wrote:

> Howdy All,
>
> Not trying to start a flame war here, but I found John
> M.'s remarks from a very recent Analogue Heaven post
> regarding the Wiard intriguing - so I thought I would
> send them to the Wiard list to see if Grant (or anyone
> with a 300 series)could shed some light on these 2
> items listed in the post below:
>
> Jack placement (centering)
>
> Functionality of the LEDs on the top of the panel
>
> Personally, I like the graphics and they never seemed
> sloppy to me in relation to the jack field.  But on
> the other hand, I never really scrutinized it too
> much.
>
> I know that the LEDs have functionality despite the
> extra added "Gee Whiz" factor (which I especially
> like), but I didn't feel I could answer John's post in
> an accurate knowledgable way, since I don't own a
> system (I just have a pair of the 1209
> Joystick/Triggers and am looking forward to getting a
> 1210 <model #?> Noise Ring when they become available)
> and can't explain the functionality of the LEDs.
>
> Wired, Wierd, Whatever...
>
> Best,
>
> Nick
> Chicago
>
> Below:  Post I am referring to above.
>
> --- Konkuro@aol.com wrote:
>> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:24:12 -0500
>> From: Konkuro@aol.com
>> To: analogue@hyperreal.org
>> Subject: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which
>>
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>>> But one comment - IMHO, anyone who has a problem
>> with the look of Wiard has
>> probbably never seen one in person.  Trust me, they
>> are quite compelling.
>> Very interesting looking.  Photography is tricky
>> because the celtic
>> etchings, being silver, will catch a lot of light
>> and tend to show more
>> contrast in a photo than when you see them with your
>> eye.  Much subtler in
>> the flesh.<
>>
>> The Riverdance graphics are a matter of taste, I
>> guess. The modules do indeed seem to be very well
>> built, but the panel layout strikes me as sloppy.
>> Jacks aren't centered and overrun the Celtic
>> graphics on the left. Callouts seem busy and ill
>> placed.  And the line of tri-colored LEDs at the top
>> seems more for show than functionality.
>>
>> johnm
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by konkuro

Grant wrote:

>People make nonsensical remarks about the graphics, because 
they are confusing the Wiard with other objects called "modular 
synthesizers". These were envisioned by their designers as 
functional objects, and are not in the same class as the Wiard.<

Konkuro here.  I'm the one who made the comments about the graphics.  
Now. lest anybody dismiss me as a troublemaker, please do note that 
I'm a member of this forum. Why?  Because I support Wiard, whether I 
like the graphics or not (even my pet synthesizer company--
Synthesizers.com--gets my negative comments as well as my positive 
ones).

Frankly, I thought Grant's post was rather beautiful, and I agree 
with it--to a point.

If the aesthetics are as important as we are to believe, then why do 
the jacks spill over onto the Celtic graphics?  Why wasn't more care 
taken to make things centered and balanced?
	
Mind you, I think that synthesizers should resemble test equipment.  
Names like "Wogglebug" "Moogerfooger" and "Psycho Shift Register" 
make me shudder, if not retch.  An instrument, by definition, is a 
means to an end. It is the *music* that matters.  Thus, well-laid-out 
modules and meaningful names are of paramount importance.  They are 
tools, not doilies.

As for the LEDs, I can't help but to question what information they 
convey.  How is it that every Wiard module just so happens to have a 
row of multicolored LEDS at the top?  Why must they be so closely 
spaced together? It is as though uniformity takes precedence over 
functionality in the Wiard World.  I recently watched a Wiard module 
in action and found the LEDs pretty, but not particularly 
informative.  Dudes, this is *equipment,* not an effing Christmas 
tree!  Superfluity has no place in the modular realm.  There is music 
to be made!  (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does classical?)

Is synthesis about blinky lights and Riverdance graphics or about 
sound?  I do not deny that Wiard equipment is worth buying (though a 
tad overpriced, in my opinion).  Indeed, I think it's quirkyness 
lends it a certain cachet, if that's how you spell it, that makes it 
an interesting investment.  But I also think that if Wiard is serious 
about the aesthetics, they not only need to justify them, but take 
more care in their execution.  Otherwise, the argument rings somewhat 
hollow.

johnm

recordings and graphics

2002-11-19 by Doug Pearson

I just got home after several hours of noodling with the Wiard, although I 
didn't record anything for the two projects I'm *supposed* to be making 
sounds on it for, so I guess it's appropriate that two subjects I'm 
passionate about should show up on the list.

I would strongly agree with the statement that "the Wiard modular is not 
for everyone who wants an analog modular".  But it absolutely IS for me, in 
part because it was designed by a guy who was already making music that I 
loved.

I find the LED's indispensible, albeit some more indispensible than 
others.  To me, they're extremely useful for EG gates (although the 
Waveform City EG doesn't have one - there ya go!), LFO's (which all 
oscillators in the system can be used as), wave/bank numbers, sequencer 
step, filter mode, and VCA signal.  And it's fun to "patch blind" and see 
what a patch looks like from the LED's before you actually listen to it 
(heck, I probably spent an hour doing that before I plugged it into an amp 
when I first got it).

I would agree that the faceplates are a bit cozy, ergonomically.  I have 
small fingers, and the jack spacings are pretty tight when many are plugged 
in; I can see how large-fingered folk could have issues.  But I don't see 
how else that much functionality could be placed in such a small footprint, 
otherwise.  Even though the function-related patch jack placement of the 
2600 and MS-20 is very intuitive to work with, it eats up real estate 
quickly, so it isn't really practical for a modular system (especially one, 
again, as dense as Wiard).  It's a luxury for those who aren't prepared for 
*real* modulars :^).  And there is a definite logic to the jack placement 
within each module, so I find no problem patching them up quickly, even 
though I do generally have to read the labels.

As for the graphics, I like them, but I can see how some people might 
not.  I can't see how that woud really detract from one's aesthetic 
perception of the modules' look, unless the blue is *that* much of a 
contrast with your wall of black and/or silver.  But the only synth modules 
I've ever seen that I would reject on the grounds of their graphics alone 
was that homebrew system with paintings of anime girls on all the modules 
(you know the one I'm talking about?).  Certainly the Wiard, striking as it 
is, isn't in the same universe of garishness as those!

At 04:14 AM 11/19/02 +0000, grantrichter2001 <grichter@asapnet.net> wrote:
>LEXICON DEVIL ANNOUNCES THE MUCH BELATED CD
>REISSUE OF THE HIDEOUSLY RARE
>F/i BOX SET: THE PAST DARKLY/THE FUTURE LIGHTLY

These are all fantastic albums.  I spent many, many hours in the late 1980s 
and early 1990s listening to the original vinyl versions.  The box set 
spans industrial/noise material (with Grant's predecessor Rick Franecki) 
through Hawkwind/Flipper spacedronesludgerock anthems, and is all pretty 
spectacular.  Even 10-15 years later, those F/i recordings sound fresh and 
undated.  This is the stuff that made me KNOW I had to own a Wiard System 
as soon as it was announced, months before its actual manufacture.  Think 
of it - what if Klaus Schulze or Tomita or Tim Blake or ... had been able 
to design their own synths? - it's a modular created by an actual musician.

And indeed, it was creating some spectacular sounds tonight.  Quite a bit 
of FM with some EG spikes and a wavetable sweep were enough to keep me 
tranced out with various tuned FM/metallic slaps and strikes, Q-sonar 
pings, ringmod audio fm sweeps, and a bit of crunch from 
who-knows-where.  Did I mention that I love my Wiard?

         -Doug
          jasret@mindspring.com

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by ringmod45

Hi Konkuro, 

Consider The Wiard Synthesizer Company as an Exotic Sound Boutique. 
Obviously, Grant is not pumping Systems out on the market at the rate 
of Doepfer, A Sol, A Sys .etc. You have to appreciate the costs 
associated with producing face plates. By having the same face plate 
throughout the system, he, thereby, eliminates the issue of having to 
design faceplates for different modules. The bonus is that he only 
has to carry one faceplate in his inventory. Minimum runs, carrying a 
multiple faceplate inventory and tooling charges are no longer an 
issue and the machine shop gets the same item to manufacture, thereby 
eliminating errors. It streamlines the process, so he can concentrate 
on building and designing. I personally feel, he has combined Art and 
Function into a wonderful system.

Does this limit the look and functionality of the modules? Some would 
say, Yes. I believe, it actually helps the module. If you look at 
Digest #618, it, clearly, defines the thought and process behind the 
design of each module. Wiard has more functions on their modules, 
thereby, eliminating the need for long patchcords to go across the 
surface of the instrument.

Now, most of the other manufacturers go by the principle of one 
function per module. If you add all of the functions a Wiard module 
and you try to replicate them with single function modules of the 
other systems available, you will find the Wiard modules to be 
economically priced. You have only 2 modules that are higher priced 
than the others, the Omni Filter and the Waveform City. Considering 
the quality and the function set these modules possess, i believe 
them to be worth the asking price for the creative functions they 
bring to the equation.

The led's are there for visual feedback, on some of the modules the 
led's might be less suited for its intended purpose, but factor in 
the one face plate for multiple modules process and it blends well 
together. I am sure the led's are spaced as such, because of what's 
going on under the face plate.

The Wiard modules are almost like children, each module is defined by 
its set of functions. The fact they are named that way, gives them a 
personality, which i feel, they have. When you say, use the WoggleBug 
as a cv source for the Sequantizer stage select input, you don't have 
to think twice about what the module does. If you have multiple 
modular systems in your studio, it becomes a little harder to 
identify which system and naming the module by its function name and 
manufacturer.

About the issue of  " (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does 
classical?)" , Classical Music is not the barometer to define whether 
or not an instrument is viable or valuable. Music is about 
creativity, emotion and expression. The means to convey them are 
personal to each player or composer. When someone sees the need to 
use a Wiard system to make Classical Music, he or she will do so. 

Wendy Carlos's Switched on Bach set a mindprint on the collective
electronic psyche. It is a wonderful work of Art and Expression. Now, 
trade positions, imagine if Wendy had used a Wiard System instead of 
a Moog Modular to achieve that body of work. What would we be saying 
about Bob Moog, who comes some 20 years later and builds a modular 
different than the one Grant built for Wendy? Would you ask yourself 
the same question, " How come nobody with a Moog does classical? " ?

Maybe, maybe not. Grant has built an instrument that has its own 
sound and playability. The Electronic Music Community is lucky to 
have another Designer, in its fold, creating new ideas and designs.  

The Synthesizer and Classical music issue has been done and 
exhausted. The common masses knew about synthesizers subconsciously 
through TV and Radio adverts. The reason for the impact and success 
of Switched on Bach, was the performance of the work and the medium 
combined together. Until someone comes up with a new innovative and 
evocative performance, the system which they will use, will not be 
the barometer to judge the quality of the work and it's performance.

Like you said, " It is the *music* that matters ", appreciate the 
Wiard System for it's sonic character, control functions and it's 
music making abilities.  Later, its Design esthetics might grow on 
you. :)

Regards,
RM






--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> Grant wrote:
> 
> >People make nonsensical remarks about the graphics, because 
> they are confusing the Wiard with other objects called "modular 
> synthesizers". These were envisioned by their designers as 
> functional objects, and are not in the same class as the Wiard.<
> 
> Konkuro here.  I'm the one who made the comments about the 
graphics.  
> Now. lest anybody dismiss me as a troublemaker, please do note that 
> I'm a member of this forum. Why?  Because I support Wiard, whether 
I 
> like the graphics or not (even my pet synthesizer company--
> Synthesizers.com--gets my negative comments as well as my positive 
> ones).
> 
> Frankly, I thought Grant's post was rather beautiful, and I agree 
> with it--to a point.
> 
> If the aesthetics are as important as we are to believe, then why 
do 
> the jacks spill over onto the Celtic graphics?  Why wasn't more 
care 
> taken to make things centered and balanced?
> 	
> Mind you, I think that synthesizers should resemble test 
equipment.  
> Names like "Wogglebug" "Moogerfooger" and "Psycho Shift Register" 
> make me shudder, if not retch.  An instrument, by definition, is a 
> means to an end. It is the *music* that matters.  Thus, well-laid-
out 
> modules and meaningful names are of paramount importance.  They are 
> tools, not doilies.
> 
> As for the LEDs, I can't help but to question what information they 
> convey.  How is it that every Wiard module just so happens to have 
a 
> row of multicolored LEDS at the top? Why must they be so closely 
> spaced together? It is as though uniformity takes precedence over 
> functionality in the Wiard World.
>I recently watched a Wiard module 
> in action and found the LEDs pretty, but not particularly 
> informative.  Dudes, this is *equipment,* not an effing Christmas 
> tree!  Superfluity has no place in the modular realm.  There is 
music 
> to be made!  (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does 
classical?)
> 
> Is synthesis about blinky lights and Riverdance graphics or about 
> sound?  I do not deny that Wiard equipment is worth buying (though 
a 
> tad overpriced, in my opinion).  Indeed, I think it's quirkyness 
> lends it a certain cachet, if that's how you spell it, that makes 
it 
> an interesting investment.  But I also think that if Wiard is 
serious 
> about the aesthetics, they not only need to justify them, but take 
> more care in their execution.  Otherwise, the argument rings 
somewhat 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> hollow.
> 
> johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by mark verbos

Are you suggesting that because LEDs are not neccessary that they are in 
some way a hindrance? I think the Wiard looks and functions as well or 
better than any other synthesizer.

here we go again.

mark


konkuro wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Grant wrote:
>
>>People make nonsensical remarks about the graphics, because 
>>
>they are confusing the Wiard with other objects called "modular 
>synthesizers". These were envisioned by their designers as 
>functional objects, and are not in the same class as the Wiard.<
>
>Konkuro here.  I'm the one who made the comments about the graphics.  
>Now. lest anybody dismiss me as a troublemaker, please do note that 
>I'm a member of this forum. Why?  Because I support Wiard, whether I 
>like the graphics or not (even my pet synthesizer company--
>Synthesizers.com--gets my negative comments as well as my positive 
>ones).
>
>Frankly, I thought Grant's post was rather beautiful, and I agree 
>with it--to a point.
>
>If the aesthetics are as important as we are to believe, then why do 
>the jacks spill over onto the Celtic graphics?  Why wasn't more care 
>taken to make things centered and balanced?
>	
>Mind you, I think that synthesizers should resemble test equipment.  
>Names like "Wogglebug" "Moogerfooger" and "Psycho Shift Register" 
>make me shudder, if not retch.  An instrument, by definition, is a 
>means to an end. It is the *music* that matters.  Thus, well-laid-out 
>modules and meaningful names are of paramount importance.  They are 
>tools, not doilies.
>
>As for the LEDs, I can't help but to question what information they 
>convey.  How is it that every Wiard module just so happens to have a 
>row of multicolored LEDS at the top?  Why must they be so closely 
>spaced together? It is as though uniformity takes precedence over 
>functionality in the Wiard World.  I recently watched a Wiard module 
>in action and found the LEDs pretty, but not particularly 
>informative.  Dudes, this is *equipment,* not an effing Christmas 
>tree!  Superfluity has no place in the modular realm.  There is music 
>to be made!  (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does classical?)
>
>Is synthesis about blinky lights and Riverdance graphics or about 
>sound?  I do not deny that Wiard equipment is worth buying (though a 
>tad overpriced, in my opinion).  Indeed, I think it's quirkyness 
>lends it a certain cachet, if that's how you spell it, that makes it 
>an interesting investment.  But I also think that if Wiard is serious 
>about the aesthetics, they not only need to justify them, but take 
>more care in their execution.  Otherwise, the argument rings somewhat 
>hollow.
>
>johnm
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by r

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:

"(An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does classical?)"



Who has time for that?

Us Wiard users spend most of our time in our parents basement smoking 
pot and playing Howard Leese's synthesizer solo on Heart's 'Magic 
Man'...Try, try, try to understand...

x0x
r

ps- does anyone still have those Sequantizer knob settings to Karn 
Evil 9? They seem to be missing from the Wiard site again!

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-19 by grantrichter2001

Hi John,

Your remark on AH that the LEDs "looked like fireflies vomiting" 
was bait. But I took it because I believe strongly about this. Thank 
you for taking MY bait because you feel strongly about it also. I 
admire that you obviously feel strongly about music and the arts.

> 
> Frankly, I thought Grant's post was rather beautiful, and I agree 
> with it--to a point.
> 
> If the aesthetics are as important as we are to believe, then 
why do 
> the jacks spill over onto the Celtic graphics?  Why wasn't more 
care 
> taken to make things centered and balanced?

The jack assembly needed to be offset to make room for the 
ground lugs on one side. If I made the panels wider, they would 
not fit into the 17" rack standard. Any compromise that was 
made, was made for the benefit of the end user and has been 
agonized over more than I can explain.

>  Thus, well-laid-out 
> modules and meaningful names are of paramount 
importance.  They are 
> tools, not doilies.
> 

Thank you for bringing up an important issue. Which is the 
fundamental shift in the perception of art caused by the industrial 
revolution. It is the industrialization of art itself.

Only an industry needs "tools", music and medicine, which are 
both arts, use "instruments".

If you have "tools" and you do not produce results desired by 
someone else, you are considered inept or lazy and the fault is 
yours.

If the "instruments" of surgery fail, the doctor is not blamed IF 
they did their very best in an uncertain and difficult circumstance. 
This is more like creating art and composing music.

Up to the point where music became big business, it was not 
treated as a craft where "results" are expected and predictable. It 
did not use "tools' to produce these predictable results. (and 
certainly not "weapons" for an "arsenal" of War)

It used precious "instruments" for a personal journey of 
discovery and enrichment with an outcome that is unknown. The 
fact that the destination is unknown, is what makes the journey 
exciting.

Music is for your personal enrichment, you are not obligated to 
produce music that anybody else likes, or even recognizes as 
music (consider the original reaction to "The Rite of Spring").

The attempt to produce art which is "popular" has led to all my 
artist failures. The Wiard is not intended to be popular. I can 
accept that you dislike it, but please don't think I'm obligated to 
produce "tools" for a process that I do NOT want to be 
industrialized.

With Respect,

Grant Richter
Wiard Synthesizer

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

RM:

Can't say I agree with most of your post, but it sure was good 
reading!

>You have to appreciate the costs 
associated with producing face plates. By having the same face plate 
throughout the system, he, thereby, eliminates the issue of having to 
design faceplates for different modules. The bonus is that he only 
has to carry one faceplate in his inventory.<

But this is like the cart driving the horse.  "Well, we have these 
uniform panels with the same number of holes in them, so we had 
better fill them with functions whether they are called for or not."  
It's kind of like designing different cars, from Volkswagens to 
Audis, and using the same body for all of them.  Form should follow 
function.

>Does this limit the look and functionality of the modules? Some 
would 
say, Yes. I believe, it actually helps the module. If you look at 
Digest #618,<

I shall have to read that.  Thank you for the pointer.

>Wiard has more functions on their modules, 
thereby, eliminating the need for long patchcords to go across the 
surface of the instrument.<

But it also locks you into the "macro-module" concept a la Serge.  
You may end up with functions you don't want or need.  To me, this is 
not the way to create an efficient system.

>About the issue of " (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does 
classical?)" , Classical Music is not the barometer to define whether 
or not an instrument is viable or valuable.<

Ah, but it is!  It is probably the best metric for evaluating a 
modular synthesizer.  It's like an analogy I recently used on TGS 
about painting.  Anybody--even a monkey--can create abstract art.  
There is no skill involved in throwing caviar at a canvas and calling 
it "art."  It is quite another matter, however, to paint like Tissot 
or Ingres.  It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in 
such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained or 
untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look like.

The same is true for sound.  Any eight-year-old can get sound out of 
a synthesizer.  There is no real way to evaluate the sound of a 
blarkus or a blork, but if you set out to create French horn and it 
doesn't sound like it, then the faults will be immediately obvious.

Now, say you wanted to evaluate the sound of a new grand piano on the 
market.  From which could you discern more: sequences of random 
banging, or a Chopin etude?  The former has no frame of reference, 
the latter does.  

How well do Wiard oscillators track?  How good are the filters for 
creating formants?  These kind of criteria cannot be ascertained from 
random squawks and banal, numbingly repetitive sequencer riffs.

>Grant has built an instrument that has its own 
sound and playability. The Electronic Music Community is lucky to 
have another Designer, in its fold, creating new ideas and designs.<

True! 

>The Synthesizer and Classical music issue has been done and 
exhausted.<

Oh, not true!  My lament is that the synthesizer barely got started 
in the classical realm.  It got sidetracked by pop and rock, as an 
expedient novelty.  Today, it is used as a "band in a box"--and not a 
very good band at that.  This is true even for the music of Carlos.  
Carlos' analog works were outstanding and brought something really 
new to music.  Carlos' digital works tend toward sounding like cheesy 
imitations that could be had on a K-mart Casio (I refer you to Peter 
and the Wolf, S-0B 2000, and Tales of Heaven and Hell.)

>Like you said, " It is the *music* that matters ", appreciate the 
Wiard System for it's sonic character, control functions and it's 
music making abilities. Later, its Design esthetics might grow on 
you. :)<

Highly unlikely.  But who knows?   :-)
	
	
johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Mark V. wrote:

>Are you suggesting that because LEDs are not neccessary that they 
are in 
some way a hindrance?<

No.  I am saying it outright.

Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a purpose.  If 
the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, then what you 
have is a toy or mere stage dressing.  Why not go all the way and add 
spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders and other gewgaws?

>I think the Wiard looks and functions as well or better than any 
other synthesizer.<

I think the panels are a lesson in superfluity and confusion and 
should have been better conceived, given the prices.  But one can't 
have everything, I guess.  Blacet designs are top-notch, but their 
panels are hideous and unergonomic.  And while I'm told that 
Technosaurus designs are very good, the panels look like a backdrop 
for a GI Joe playset.  It almost makes one wonder.

Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing 
equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part.  As 
such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified* 
exterior.

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by its_peake

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> >Wiard has more functions on their modules, 
> thereby, eliminating the need for long patchcords to go across 
the 
> surface of the instrument.<
> 
> But it also locks you into the "macro-module" concept a la 
Serge.  
> You may end up with functions you don't want or need.  To me, 
this is 
> not the way to create an efficient system.

Eliminating long patchcords and providing exceptional functional
density might be argued as being efficient. This is why Doug 
was
able to bring his Wiard to the Hayward gathering and you had to 
leave The Beast at your apartment ;-)

> >About the issue of " (An aside: How come nobody with a 
Wiard does 
> classical?)" , Classical Music is not the barometer to define 
whether 
> or not an instrument is viable or valuable.<
> 
> Ah, but it is!  It is probably the best metric for evaluating a 
> modular synthesizer.  It's like an analogy I recently used on 
TGS 
> about painting.  Anybody--even a monkey--can create abstract 
art.  
> There is no skill involved in throwing caviar at a canvas and 
calling 
> it "art."  

There is skill involved in producing something which others in
your field will recognize as valid and valuable, even if it is not
their particular preference. 

>It is quite another matter, however, to paint like Tissot 
> or Ingres.  It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects 
in 
> such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, 
trained or 
> untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to 
look like.

That is a result-driven argument. I create for the process which
pleases myself the most. 

Most especially, music is one of the more abstract arts. 
Beginning
with the goal of pleasing the most peoples' recognition of
validity is a bad way to approach abstract arts. This has caused
me lots of discomfort in my days, and has limited my sonic
output. No more, I tell you :-)

And you are incorrect to submit that photo-realism is more 
important than another form of expression such as bauhaus.
It's simply a difference in tastes. _What pleases and drives 
YOU?_

THAT is art. If another person cannot identify it, it does not
reduce its validity to you. 

> The same is true for sound.  Any eight-year-old can get sound 
out of 
> a synthesizer.  There is no real way to evaluate the sound of a 
> blarkus or a blork, but if you set out to create French horn and it 
> doesn't sound like it, then the faults will be immediately 
obvious.

Imitative synthesis is one aspect of the many...but not the sole
aspect. 

> Now, say you wanted to evaluate the sound of a new grand 
piano on the 
> market.  From which could you discern more: sequences of 
random 
> banging, or a Chopin etude?  The former has no frame of 
reference, 
> the latter does.  

That depends entirely upon whether you enjoy sequences of
random banging or not (or if they are indeed random).

> How well do Wiard oscillators track?  How good are the filters 
for 
> creating formants?  These kind of criteria cannot be 
ascertained from 
> random squawks and banal, numbingly repetitive sequencer 
riffs.

That's a good question; how good is the Wiard for music which
requires oscillators which track? Smoo has a record almost due
out, and some soundbites in the Files section which 
demonstrate
that the Wiard is indeed capable of tonal music.

I like it for the rest of musical types. Unless it has a killer electro
bass sound. Who knows? :-)

> >Grant has built an instrument that has its own 
> sound and playability. The Electronic Music Community is lucky 
to 
> have another Designer, in its fold, creating new ideas and 
designs.<
> 
> True! 
> 
> >The Synthesizer and Classical music issue has been done 
and 
> exhausted.<
> 
> Oh, not true!  My lament is that the synthesizer barely got 
started 
> in the classical realm.  It got sidetracked by pop and rock, as 
an 
> expedient novelty.  Today, it is used as a "band in a box"--and 
not a 
> very good band at that.  This is true even for the music of 
Carlos.  
> Carlos' analog works were outstanding and brought 
something really 
> new to music.  Carlos' digital works tend toward sounding like 
cheesy 
> imitations that could be had on a K-mart Casio (I refer you to 
Peter 
> and the Wolf, S-0B 2000, and Tales of Heaven and Hell.)
> 
> >Like you said, " It is the *music* that matters ", appreciate the 
> Wiard System for it's sonic character, control functions and it's 
> music making abilities. Later, its Design esthetics might grow 
on 
> you. :)<
> 
> Highly unlikely.  But who knows?   :-)
> 	
> 	
> johnm

You have to admit that we didn't have enough time on Doug's
Wiard to be able to know the functions of all of the LEDs, and
from that, to determine whether, _for us_, any were superflous
or not. It did seem like information overload at first, but with
a closer glance, it became evident that each had importance.

Easier,

-Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Grant wrote:


>The jack assembly needed to be offset to make room for the 
ground lugs on one side. If I made the panels wider, they would 
not fit into the 17" rack standard. Any compromise that was 
made, was made for the benefit of the end user and has been 
agonized over more than I can explain.<

But I don't understand why you did not take this overhang into 
account when designing the panel as a whole.  If the jacks are going 
to overrun the graphics, what's the point of having the graphics 
there?  Didn't it occur to you that the jacks would be off center and 
that if you used a particular design format, it would be partially 
obscured?  Something should have changed, but did not.

Mind you, the point here is not to browbeat you for design choices in 
jack, graphic, and callout placement that strike me as oddly 
slipshod.  I just don't get the Wiard aesthetic gestalt.  Really, 
what do you expect from somebody who loves the Moog look and is 
generally annoyed by asymmetry?  :-)

>Up to the point where music became big business, it was not 
treated as a craft where "results" are expected and predictable. It 
did not use "tools' to produce these predictable results. (and 
certainly not "weapons" for an "arsenal" of War)<

>It used precious "instruments" for a personal journey of 
discovery and enrichment with an outcome that is unknown. The 
fact that the destination is unknown, is what makes the journey 
exciting.<

Yes, were that only true.  Do you think that when Beethoven sat down 
to write a symphony that the destination was unknown?  When an author 
writes a book (at least a good one), do you think he just pens a 
bunch of random thoughts in the hope that they will solidify into a 
plot?

Good instruments are important to the creation of art, but their form 
must follow function.  This is not some kind of Bauhaus (ugh!) 
dictum, but one that Mother Nature herself follows.  Things are 
created a certain way for certain reasons.  Does a pen create any 
better art because it has gewgaws carved on it?  No.  What a pen 
needs is a well-wrought nib, a comfortable, ergonomic design, and 
good ink.  Thus it is with synthesizers. Kind of.

>Music is for your personal enrichment, you are not obligated to 
produce music that anybody else likes, or even recognizes as 
music<

Again I disagree.  Art is a form of communication.  What good would 
Tolstoy have been if his novels were written only for himself?  Of 
what use would Mozart have been if he had locked himself in a closet 
and composed music for his ears only?  Creating music for oneself is 
enjoyable, but it is tantamount to aesthetic masturbation.  It may 
good, but will never bear any offspring.

>(consider the original reaction to "The Rite of Spring").<

Actually, the reaction was mostly to the disjointed, mechanical, 
almost spastic dancing Nijinsky had choreographed.

>The attempt to produce art which is "popular" has led to all my 
artist failures. The Wiard is not intended to be popular. I can 
accept that you dislike it,<

Actually, "dislike" would not be accurate.  I don't care for certain 
physical aspects of it, but am open to further exploration of it's 
sound.  My favorite piece in the recent aleatoric competition was 
done on a Wiard, and I was impressed with some of the sounds created 
at the recent Bay Area AH gathering.  If you wanted to send me a 
system for a free evaluation, trust me, I would not stop you.  :-)

>but please don't think I'm obligated to  produce "tools" for a 
process that I do NOT want to be industrialized.<

Yet your product seems targeted to producers of "industrial" and 
other sequencer-based, mechanized sounding forms.  Curious.

At any rate, thank you for a very interesting post!  And please do 
not get the impression that I'm in any way anti-Wiard.  Indeed, I've 
sent a couple of prospective buyers to your site.  I also very much 
appreciate being allowed to speak freely on your forum which--unlike 
another forum--does not censor contrary opinions.

Best,

johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by mark verbos

I agree, but if that mean make it look like a Moog or an Aries, then you 
lost me.

mark

konkuro wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing 
>equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part.  As 
>such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified* 
>exterior.
>
>johnm
>
>
>

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Mike Fisher

Sigh. Once more into the breech...

> Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a purpose.  If
> the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, then what you
> have is a toy or mere stage dressing.  Why not go all the way and add
> spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders and other gewgaws?

Please see my previous post, which included a passing mention of uses 
for the oscillator (and other) LEDs, and also a brief mention of the 
role of human factors and ergonomics in synthesizers. It (human 
factors) is a subject with which I have a more than passing 
familiarity, and I'd be glad to elaborate on the importance of things 
like visible system status, etc if needed. Yes, the LEDs have a purpose 
and yes they're useful in a variety of circumstances. If I didn't think 
so I'd be the first to say it. If they're not useful to you, that's ok. 
Not everyone wants that kind of feedback from their instrument. But 
either you didn't read my comment on that or you don't believe me 
(either of which is of course your prerogative).

> Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing
> equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part.  As
> such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified*
> exterior.

I'd say the Wiard "looks the part", and I suspect so would plenty of 
others who have used it or seen one. "Dignified" is also a very 
subjective term. To me, the color scheme of a Focusrite ISA console or 
module isn't terribly "dignified" in the sense that it's not nearly as 
muted as typical studio gear. But it certainly looks professional. 
Actually, the Wiard is the first item that most people notice when they 
see my studio. I don't think I've ever had anyone see it and say, "wow, 
what an undignified and superfluous panel design that is - must be 
terribly difficult to get anything done with all those graphics in your 
face". Suit yourself, but I don't see the point of knocking a different 
design based for the most part on its being unconventional. Everyone is 
entitled to an opinion, but unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be 
trying to justify why your opinion is "right".

And then there was...

> Ah, but it is!  It is probably the best metric for evaluating a
> modular synthesizer.  It's like an analogy I recently used on TGS
> about painting.  Anybody--even a monkey--can create abstract art.
> There is no skill involved

And also...

> How well do Wiard oscillators track?  How good are the filters for
> creating formants?  These kind of criteria cannot be ascertained from
> random squawks and banal, numbingly repetitive sequencer riffs.

These are certainly legitimate questions, but It sort of seems like 
you're saying that all music falls into two categories: classical, 
which is legitimate and the only "true" yardstick by which to measure 
an electronic instrument, and "banal, numbingly repetitive sequencer 
riffs", which represents all other electronic music and is an 
illegitimate art form, not to mention being useless in judging the 
capabilities of an electronic instrument.

No offense intended, but I can't tell if this is ignorance or arrogance 
talking. There's plenty of excellent synthesizer music out there that 
is not classical in nature, and not "banal, numbingly", etc. If you 
aren't aware of any then you truly need to get out more. Classical may 
be -one- good way to measure the capabilities of an instrument, but 
you're flat out nuts if you think it's the only valid means. I think 
that a lot of folks on this list are probably intimately familiar with 
both genres, but I wouldn't expect them to make such an outrageous (and 
indefensible) assertion.

Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Mike Peake wrote:

>Eliminating long patchcords and providing exceptional functional
density might be argued as being efficient. This is why Doug 
was able to bring his Wiard to the Hayward gathering and you had to 
leave The Beast at your apartment ;-)<

Hahahahaha!  Touche!

(That one is going to cost you, bud...)


>>It is quite another matter, however, to paint like Tissot 
 or Ingres. It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects 
in such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, 
trained or untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed 
to 
look like.<<

>That is a result-driven argument. I create for the process which
pleases myself the most.<

See my paragraph on aesthetic masturbation.

>Most especially, music is one of the more abstract arts.<

If that were true, there would be no need for a 1V/Oct reference.
 
>Beginning with the goal of pleasing the most peoples' recognition of
validity is a bad way to approach abstract arts.<

This argument has filled museums with piles of rocks from Home Depot, 
crushed beer cans, and other mediocrities from 
poseurs.  "Recognition" is what art is all about.  If you have to be 
told what a dead fly on squirrel's head means, then the art piece 
failed to communicate.

>And you are incorrect to submit that photo-realism is more 
important than another form of expression such as bauhaus.<

I was not speaking of photo-realism, which is parroting what a camera 
does (in most cases, "photo-real" paintings begin as tracings of 
photographs.  What's the point of that?).  And Bauhaus isn't a form 
of expression, but a validation of expediency.  Oh, what lovely 
buildings the 1960s produced!  Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

>It's simply a difference in tastes.<

I have never bought that argument.  There are universal constants of 
beauty that are built into the species.  A rose is as lovely and 
smells as sweet in the USA as in China.  A plate of dog poo would 
likely garner a negative reaction in both locales.

>What pleases and drives YOU?<

This isn't the forum for that question.  :-)

>THAT is art. If another person cannot identify it, it does not
reduce its validity to you.<

Then why even bother to create it?  If only you can understand and 
appreciate something you create, why bother making it real?  Why not 
just leave it as a thought in your own mind? 

>Imitative synthesis is one aspect of the many...but not the sole
aspect. <

True!  But it does demonstrate the skill of the synthesist and the 
merit of his chosen synthesizer.  WHERE IS THE WENDY OF THE WIARD? 
That's what I want to know. 
Ken Elhardt's demos give me an idea of what he as a synthesist can 
do, and what the MOTM synthesizer can do [calm down, Mike.  :-) ]  
The banga-banga-banga stuff can be done on any synth, including PAIA 
(long may it play!).  Can a Wiard produce a predictable, recognizable 
outcome?  I don't know--and I want to know.

Mind you, this isn't to say that traditional music is the ONLY metric 
for quality.  If somebody could sound like Subotnick on a Wiard---
well then, that would sell me.

>> Now, say you wanted to evaluate the sound of a new grand 
piano on the  market. From which could you discern more: sequences of 
random  banging, or a Chopin etude? The former has no frame of 
reference,  the latter does. <<

>That depends entirely upon whether you enjoy sequences of
random banging or not (or if they are indeed random).<

So get a cheap honky-tonk piano to bang on and reserve the 
Boesendorpher, if that's how you spell it, for the real deal.

>That's a good question; how good is the Wiard for music which
requires oscillators which track? Smoo has a record almost due
out, and some soundbites in the Files section which 
demonstrate that the Wiard is indeed capable of tonal music.<

I do not know what Smoo is, but will check out the files section.

>You have to admit that we didn't have enough time on Doug's
Wiard to be able to know the functions of all of the LEDs, and
from that, to determine whether, _for us_, any were superflous
or not. It did seem like information overload at first, but with
a closer glance, it became evident that each had importance.<

To mating nudibranchs, perhaps.  Now, take my Arrick (don't you 
DARE!).  You can look at the LED on the ADSR or the oscillator and 
tell exactly what is going on (well, almost--Synthesizers.com LEDs on 
the oscillators are 180 degrees out of phase with the output, but I 
digress).  But what does a row of tri-colored LEDs signify?  A 
pulsing red LED is more than enough to tell you what you need to 
know.  A tri-colored LED is a lightshow.  Again, buy having a single 
format that dictates LEDs *must* be present, you are locked into a 
system in which some of those LEDs are guaranteed to be no more than 
glorified power indicators.

BTW, if Doug wants to bring his Wiard to my pad and change my mind, 
he is more than welcome!  I'm open to it.

JM

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Mike Fisher wrote:

>Sigh. Once more into the breech...<

Well, what good is preaching to the converted all the time?  I am 
unconverted, but am willing to listen. 

> Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a purpose. If
> the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, then what you
> have is a toy or mere stage dressing. Why not go all the way and add
> spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders and other 
gewgaws?

 
>Not everyone wants that kind of feedback from their instrument. But 
either you didn't read my comment on that or you don't believe me 
(either of which is of course your prerogative).<

There is such a thing as overkill.  When you think about it, every 
knob and every switch on a synth could have an associated LED.  But 
how useful would that really be?  (BTW, I'm not sure which comment 
you were referring to.  If you can point me to it, I will read it.)

> Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing
> equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part. As
> such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified*
> exterior.

>Actually, the Wiard is the first item that most people notice when 
they 
see my studio. I don't think I've ever had anyone see it and 
say, "wow, 
what an undignified and superfluous panel design that is - must be 
terribly difficult to get anything done with all those graphics in 
your 
face".<

You have never had ME in your studio.  :-)

>Suit yourself, but I don't see the point of knocking a different 
design based for the most part on its being unconventional. Everyone 
is 
entitled to an opinion, but unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be 
trying to justify why your opinion is "right".<

Well, of course.  I don't try to justify stances I believe to be in 
error.

>No offense intended, but I can't tell if this is ignorance or 
arrogance 
talking.<

Arrogance, most likely.  Modular synthesis is a subject on which I'm 
easily qualified to render valid opinions.

> There's plenty of excellent synthesizer music out there that 
is not classical in nature, and not "banal, numbingly", etc.<

Yes.  I've a shelf full of such recordings, but they are real 
compositions, not "run the sequencer for 15 minutes" dreck that's 
knocked out three-to-an-evening.

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by ringmod45

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> RM:
> 
> Can't say I agree with most of your post, but it sure was good 
> reading!

Thanks.

> 
> >You have to appreciate the costs 
> associated with producing face plates. By having the same face 
plate 
> throughout the system, he, thereby, eliminates the issue of having 
to 
> design faceplates for different modules. The bonus is that he only 
> has to carry one faceplate in his inventory.<
> 
> But this is like the cart driving the horse.  "Well, we have these 
> uniform panels with the same number of holes in them, so we had 
> better fill them with functions whether they are called for or 
not."  
> It's kind of like designing different cars, from Volkswagens to 
> Audis, and using the same body for all of them.  Form should follow 
> function.

A Wiard module has a core function to begin with, the other functions 
are there to complement the core. So, the complimentary functions are 
there to follow the form set by the core function. 

> 
> >Does this limit the look and functionality of the modules? Some 
> would 
> say, Yes. I believe, it actually helps the module. If you look at 
> Digest #618,<
> 
> I shall have to read that.  Thank you for the pointer.
> 
> >Wiard has more functions on their modules, 
> thereby, eliminating the need for long patchcords to go across the 
> surface of the instrument.<
> 
> But it also locks you into the "macro-module" concept a la Serge.  
> You may end up with functions you don't want or need.  To me, this 
is 
> not the way to create an efficient system.

You may not want or need them, but they are complimentary to the Core 
Function of the module and not whimsical. It always helps to have one 
or more Complimentary Functions on board. If you balance your Core 
Function modules in an array that pleases your patching needs, then 
the Complimentary Functions will help balance the rest of the system. 
If you feel the need to have a particular function which the Wiard 
does not have, you could always expand it with modules from other 
manufacturers.

> 
> >About the issue of " (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does 
> classical?)" , Classical Music is not the barometer to define 
whether 
> or not an instrument is viable or valuable.<
> 
> Ah, but it is!  It is probably the best metric for evaluating a 
> modular synthesizer. 

I appreciate your opinion on the matter, but i come from a different 
school of thought on the subject. Not to go into philosophical 
semantics about Art, but from where i base my ideas on Art and 
Creativity, there are certain patterns that I tend to avoid.

Art is the transformation of the unknown by way of process and spirit.
Sometimes accidents produce some elegant and not so elegant results.

 It's like an analogy I recently used on TGS 
> about painting.  Anybody--even a monkey--can create abstract art.  
> There is no skill involved in throwing caviar at a canvas and 
calling 
> it "art."  It is quite another matter, however, to paint like 
Tissot 
> or Ingres.  It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to 
create 
> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in 
> such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained 
or 
> untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look 
like.

To keep it in the Arena of Painting, how would you classify Picasso?
A genius or a charlatan? Having seen 3 of his exhibitons and seeing 
his early and later sketchbooks, most people think of Picasso as an 
Abstract artist. Classical Art aficionados tend to think less of his 
work. During his formative years, he had the ability to draw and 
paint like his Classical predecessors, his teachers saw his ability 
as well. The one comment he opined to a friend about that period of 
his life, was generally speaking along these lines, < They know, I 
can paint like them if I want to, but they will never be able to 
paint like me >. This where Art enters into the equation. He had the 
soul and prowess, to transform his ideas and surroundings to their 
most primal forms, into works of Art. If you have the chance to see 
the 1956 documentary THE MYSTERY OF PICASSO by Henri-Georges Clouzot, 
i highly recommend it.




> 
> The same is true for sound.  Any eight-year-old can get sound out 
of 
> a synthesizer.  There is no real way to evaluate the sound of a 
> blarkus or a blork, but if you set out to create French horn and it 
> doesn't sound like it, then the faults will be immediately obvious.

Yes, i agree with you here as well, but you are about talking 
imitating or modelling the sound of the French Horn. The French Horn 
existed before the Modular Synthesizer. How about creating new voices.
A most difficult task indeed.


> 
> Now, say you wanted to evaluate the sound of a new grand piano on 
the 
> market.  From which could you discern more: sequences of random 
> banging, or a Chopin etude?  The former has no frame of reference, 
> the latter does.  

Again, I agree, but how about a Cecil Taylor composition or a 
Rachmaninov concerto to put it through its paces. Atonal and 
Discordant music has its place on a piano as well.


> 
> How well do Wiard oscillators track?  How good are the filters for 
> creating formants?  These kind of criteria cannot be ascertained 
from 
> random squawks and banal, numbingly repetitive sequencer riffs.

The only experience I have had with the Wiard, was an original 6 
module system from one of the first ones out of the gate. I tried it 
over at a friend's place first. My friend lent me the manuals so i 
could come to grips with it's format. Afterward, he brought it over 
to my place for a few days. I put it through its' paces and found it 
tracked very well. I didn't try to track the filter, but i did find 
the filter very responsive. The Omni Filter had a sound which was 
unique quite pleasing to my ears. It very hard to describe, i would 
say, lock yourself in a room with the system, experiment and listen.

When the time is right, it will be one of the first instruments to 
make its way into the studio.

> 
> >Grant has built an instrument that has its own 
> sound and playability. The Electronic Music Community is lucky to 
> have another Designer, in its fold, creating new ideas and designs.<
> 
> True! 
> 
> >The Synthesizer and Classical music issue has been done and 
> exhausted.<
> 
> Oh, not true!  My lament is that the synthesizer barely got started 
> in the classical realm. 

Very true. You have to remember the Analogue Modular Synthesizer is 
probably the most powerful monophonic voice out there. It is a Made 
to Measure instrument with control elements above and beyond all of 
the musical instruments out there. I sometimes wonder, how these 
instruments would affected the likes of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven .etc 
with regards to compostion and intregation in an orchetral setting. 
Alas, we shall never know.

 It got sidetracked by pop and rock, as an 
> expedient novelty.  Today, it is used as a "band in a box"--and not 
a 
> very good band at that. 

Switched on Bach was such a powerful performance, that the amount of 
copies sold at the time, dictated the commercial rush that ensued. 
Shameful for sure, although, there were some pleasnt surprises.

 This is true even for the music of Carlos.  
> Carlos' analog works were outstanding and brought something really 
> new to music. 

I agree 100%.

 Carlos' digital works tend toward sounding like cheesy 
> imitations that could be had on a K-mart Casio (I refer you to 
Peter 
> and the Wolf, S-0B 2000, and Tales of Heaven and Hell.)

Heard most of those recordings and would rather listen to Talk Radio 
than endure a listening session with those discs.

> 
> >Like you said, " It is the *music* that matters ", appreciate the 
> Wiard System for it's sonic character, control functions and it's 
> music making abilities. Later, its Design esthetics might grow on 
> you. :)<
> 
> Highly unlikely.  But who knows?   :-)

People change with the passage of time. ;-)

RM
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 	
> 	
> johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Mike Fisher

Okay,

> There is such a thing as overkill.  When you think about it, every
> knob and every switch on a synth could have an associated LED.  But
> how useful would that really be?  (BTW, I'm not sure which comment
> you were referring to.  If you can point me to it, I will read it.)

I agree completely that visual feedback must have boundaries and 
limitations, lest it become overwhelming. And in my previous post 
(which I'll forward to you later) I specifically stated that I felt the 
oscillator LEDs were of limited value in situations where the osc is 
running at high frequencies. But since it's a multi-function device, 
applicable to a number of different situations and users, there is more 
than one use case that applies. For some of these use cases the set of 
three LEDs makes perfect sense. I can understand why you might not see 
this without spending some decent time with the instrument. The Wiard 
has a number of features to which my initial reaction was "uh?". Once I 
understood the purpose, the reaction was more along the lines of 
"aha!". I had a similar experience with Serge - a lot of density in 
that system, too - but as with both Serge and Wiard, once you get a 
handle on what it can do, you start to see the beauty of the design.

>> Actually, the Wiard is the first item that most people notice when
> they
> see my studio. I don't think I've ever had anyone see it and
> say, "wow,
> what an undignified and superfluous panel design that is - must be
> terribly difficult to get anything done with all those graphics in
> your
> face".<
>
> You have never had ME in your studio.  :-)

Yes, well at the rate we're going here that's not too likely to happen, 
now is it? :-) Mike P's gonna have to vouch for you real good if you're 
ever going to see -my- Wiard up close.

> entitled to an opinion, but unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be
> trying to justify why your opinion is "right".<
>
> Well, of course.  I don't try to justify stances I believe to be in
> error.

My intended point there was that one cannot "prove" the subjective.

> Arrogance, most likely.  Modular synthesis is a subject on which I'm
> easily qualified to render valid opinions.

That's fine, welcome to the club. You'll find that this list has plenty 
of people who are so qualified, and perhaps more experienced where 
certain topics are concerned. One thing to consider is the concept of 
the dollar-vote. The Wiard is not an inexpensive instrument, yet there 
are a lot of people here who use one happily and feel their money 
well-spent. Perhaps there's something to say for "the proof is in the 
pudding", so to speak?

>
>> There's plenty of excellent synthesizer music out there that
> is not classical in nature, and not "banal, numbingly", etc.<
>
> Yes.  I've a shelf full of such recordings, but they are real
> compositions, not "run the sequencer for 15 minutes" dreck that's
> knocked out three-to-an-evening.
>

I think you missed my point there as well. Obviously there's good 
electronic music and bad - but your comments appeared to be suggesting 
that classical was the only valid measurement, and that by extension 
all "other" electronic music is simply artistically invalid squeaks and 
squaks. It's simply not the case, and it's a fairly silly assertion - 
if that's what you meant.

Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by its_peake

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
snip
> 
> >Up to the point where music became big business, it was not 
> treated as a craft where "results" are expected and predictable. 
It 
> did not use "tools' to produce these predictable results. (and 
> certainly not "weapons" for an "arsenal" of War)<
> 
> >It used precious "instruments" for a personal journey of 
> discovery and enrichment with an outcome that is unknown. 
The 
> fact that the destination is unknown, is what makes the journey 
> exciting.<

I gotta tell you, I love that. I'm going to write it out and post it
somewhere in my studio.

> Yes, were that only true.  Do you think that when Beethoven sat 
down 
> to write a symphony that the destination was unknown?  When 
an author 
> writes a book (at least a good one), do you think he just pens a 
> bunch of random thoughts in the hope that they will solidify into 
a 
> plot?

Just to play deebil's advocate... 

"When I start at the typewriter I have a slip of paper with the
names of the people, their ages and what they do, and that's
all the outline I have. You see, in my life I've done maybe a
thousand interesting things, and I think that nine hundred
and thirty-seven of them happened in my subconsious. I
remember when I was writing "How Like A God" I had a scene
where the hero's sone comes into his office and talks to him
for two or three pages. Suddenly I pushed back from the 
typewriter, jumped up and said 'Jesus Christ! I didn't know he
had a son!' "

...The things that people say and do in the stories I write, I make
up one-third of them, but the rest I have nothing to do with."

Rex Stout, interviewed by Alfred Bester
"Re-Demolished", page 465

(I haven't read any Stout so I can't comment upon whether
he was successful or not. And what the definition of
successful would be in this instance.)


> Good instruments are important to the creation of art, but their 
form 
> must follow function.  This is not some kind of Bauhaus (ugh!) 
> dictum, but one that Mother Nature herself follows.  Things are 
> created a certain way for certain reasons.  Does a pen create 
any 
> better art because it has gewgaws carved on it?  No.  What a 
pen 
> needs is a well-wrought nib, a comfortable, ergonomic design, 
and 
> good ink.  Thus it is with synthesizers. Kind of.

It sounds like the Wiard is a piece of interactive art. An artistically
engraved katana is still a deadly weapon... 

> >Music is for your personal enrichment, you are not obligated 
to 
> produce music that anybody else likes, or even recognizes as 
> music<
> 
> Again I disagree.  Art is a form of communication.  What good 
would 
> Tolstoy have been if his novels were written only for himself?  
Of 
> what use would Mozart have been if he had locked himself in a 
closet 
> and composed music for his ears only?  Creating music for 
oneself is 
> enjoyable, but it is tantamount to aesthetic masturbation.  It 
may 
> good, but will never bear any offspring.

If if pleases me, then I'll have succeeded musically. If other
people like what I do, much the better. I'm sure that most of
us here would enjoy making a living in direct pursuit of their
artistic leanings, without compromise. 

"What is this piece of music about? It's about itself!"
-composer's name temporarily misplaced..

Grant mentioned self-enrichment. That is SO important. 
Simultaneously enriching others would be "gravy". 

> >(consider the original reaction to "The Rite of Spring").<
> 
> Actually, the reaction was mostly to the disjointed, mechanical, 
> almost spastic dancing Nijinsky had choreographed.
> 
> >The attempt to produce art which is "popular" has led to all my 
> artist failures. The Wiard is not intended to be popular. I can 
> accept that you dislike it,<
> 
> Actually, "dislike" would not be accurate.  I don't care for certain 
> physical aspects of it, but am open to further exploration of it's 
> sound.  My favorite piece in the recent aleatoric competition 
was 
> done on a Wiard, and I was impressed with some of the 
sounds created 
> at the recent Bay Area AH gathering.  If you wanted to send me 
a 
> system for a free evaluation, trust me, I would not stop you.  :-)
> 
> >but please don't think I'm obligated to  produce "tools" for a 
> process that I do NOT want to be industrialized.<
> 
> Yet your product seems targeted to producers of "industrial" 
and 
> other sequencer-based, mechanized sounding forms.  
Curious.
> 
> At any rate, thank you for a very interesting post!  And please do 
> not get the impression that I'm in any way anti-Wiard.  Indeed, 
I've 
> sent a couple of prospective buyers to your site.  I also very 
much 
> appreciate being allowed to speak freely on your forum 
which--unlike 
> another forum--does not censor contrary opinions.
> 
> Best,
> 
> johnm

Easier,

-Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by its_peake

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> Mike Peake wrote:
> 
> >Eliminating long patchcords and providing exceptional 
functional
> density might be argued as being efficient. This is why Doug 
> was able to bring his Wiard to the Hayward gathering and you 
had to 
> leave The Beast at your apartment ;-)<
> 
> Hahahahaha!  Touche!
> 
> (That one is going to cost you, bud...)

I almost laughed out loud.. But I had a mouthful of diet pepsi
and that's not going anywhere but into the caffeine receptacle
:-)

> >>It is quite another matter, however, to paint like Tissot 
>  or Ingres. It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects 
> in such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, 
> trained or untrained, because we all know what a person is 
supposed 
> to 
> look like.<<
> 
> >That is a result-driven argument. I create for the process 
which
> pleases myself the most.<
> 
> See my paragraph on aesthetic masturbation.

See my further response, a bit further in..

> >Most especially, music is one of the more abstract arts.<
> 
> If that were true, there would be no need for a 1V/Oct reference.

Buchla, EMS, EML, etc. 

Like I said to you the other day.. "No Bach on Buchla!"
(As in, it's probably not possible.)

> >Beginning with the goal of pleasing the most peoples' 
recognition of
> validity is a bad way to approach abstract arts.<
> 
> This argument has filled museums with piles of rocks from 
Home Depot, 
> crushed beer cans, and other mediocrities from 
> poseurs.  "Recognition" is what art is all about.  If you have to 
be 
> told what a dead fly on squirrel's head means, then the art 
piece 
> failed to communicate.

What does the odor communicate? (joke)

And I agree that art should move the viewer, even negatively
or into discomfort (that is still communication). Which is why
some art may only move the creator. That is enough. 

I explore synths for self-fulfillment. I enjoy finding new things
and discovering suprises. I enjoy challenging myself and
succeeding. I'm good at some aspects of synthesis and
enjoy honing the skills, and developing new ones. I love
hearing how someone did something that I can't figure
out and learning and applying new technique. It's a blank
canvas, a tabula rosa. 

If you enjoy the results, then so much the better. 

> >And you are incorrect to submit that photo-realism is more 
> important than another form of expression such as bauhaus.<
> 
> I was not speaking of photo-realism, which is parroting what a 
camera 
> does (in most cases, "photo-real" paintings begin as tracings 
of 
> photographs.  What's the point of that?).  And Bauhaus isn't a 
form 
> of expression, but a validation of expediency.  Oh, what lovely 
> buildings the 1960s produced!  Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

I regretted saying "photo-realism" almost right away. Bad
example, and I knew what you meant in the larger sense. 

You won't enjoy the mounted print I have up of a bauhaus
exhibition... :-)

> >It's simply a difference in tastes.<
> 
> I have never bought that argument.  There are universal 
constants of 
> beauty that are built into the species.  A rose is as lovely and 
> smells as sweet in the USA as in China.  A plate of dog poo 
would 
> likely garner a negative reaction in both locales.

What is the dog poo being used to communicate? As you said,
if it communicates something, and I say that discomfort is also
communication, then it may be art(istic). 

And yes, we are geared to be drawn to symmetry, strongly so,
which is why cubism and abstraction appeal to other areas of
our being. I'm going to be sorry that I've brought up cubism,
aren't I. 

> >What pleases and drives YOU?<
> 
> This isn't the forum for that question.  :-)

D'oh!

> >THAT is art. If another person cannot identify it, it does not
> reduce its validity to you.<
> 
> Then why even bother to create it?  If only you can understand 
and 
> appreciate something you create, why bother making it real?  
Why not 
> just leave it as a thought in your own mind? 

I saw "Ghandi" when it first came out; it was quite an experience.
At the end of the film, my girlfriend and I sat there quietly, in 
contemplation, but only for a moment as the two women behind
us said "What lovely scenery" and so forth. We couldn't believe
that they had missed the entire message of the film, of Ghandi's
life. Why should they have bothered making "Ghandi"? ;-)

> >Imitative synthesis is one aspect of the many...but not the 
sole
> aspect. <
> 
> True!  But it does demonstrate the skill of the synthesist and 
the 
> merit of his chosen synthesizer.  

Not particularly. To your standards, yes. I'm good at a few
aspects of imitative synthesis, and flat broke on others. Given
the appropriate modules on almost any synth, I can come up
with a given sound, depending upon certain parameters. This
is a bold, untested statement. I would not consider a synth
to lack merit if it did not allow me to acheive certain sounds,
as it may have strengths in other areas. Such as the Buchla.
I'm not going to get particular sounds out of it no matter how
hard I try; the functionality just isn't there (at least in my system).
However, it does what it does so well.. And sounds so good...
And is such a pleasure to navigate. (Another friend used it
recently and said "the Buchla is from deep space".)

> WHERE IS THE WENDY OF THE WIARD? 

Step up and claim that title ;-)

> That's what I want to know. 
> Ken Elhardt's demos give me an idea of what he as a 
synthesist can 
> do, and what the MO*M synthesizer can do [calm down, Mike.  
:-) ]  

Which is why his Doepfer demos are equally impressive. I'm
not sure if there is anything that couldn't be done just as well
on both systems. At least, I'd like to find out. 

Dang, was that a double-negative?

> The banga-banga-banga stuff can be done on any synth, 
including PAIA 
> (long may it play!).  Can a Wiard produce a predictable, 
recognizable 
> outcome?  I don't know--and I want to know.

There was an mp3 in the Files area that is no longer there...
"Analogueslowmotion". I have a copy and will send it to you.

> Mind you, this isn't to say that traditional music is the ONLY 
metric 
> for quality.  If somebody could sound like Subotnick on a 
Wiard---
> well then, that would sell me.

I'm sure that it would be easier to do than on anything other
than a Buchla...

> >> Now, say you wanted to evaluate the sound of a new grand 
> piano on the  market. From which could you discern more: 
sequences of 
> random  banging, or a Chopin etude? The former has no 
frame of 
> reference,  the latter does. <<
> 
> >That depends entirely upon whether you enjoy sequences of
> random banging or not (or if they are indeed random).<
> 
> So get a cheap honky-tonk piano to bang on and reserve the 
> Boesendorpher, if that's how you spell it, for the real deal.

Unless you dislike the sound of such detuned piano strings.
I don't care much for honkey-tonk tonalities. 

> >That's a good question; how good is the Wiard for music 
which
> requires oscillators which track? Smoo has a record almost 
due
> out, and some soundbites in the Files section which 
> demonstrate that the Wiard is indeed capable of tonal music.<
> 
> I do not know what Smoo is, but will check out the files section.

Smoo is "Waveform100". I'm sorry if I'm calling him out.. 

> >You have to admit that we didn't have enough time on Doug's
> Wiard to be able to know the functions of all of the LEDs, and
> from that, to determine whether, _for us_, any were superflous
> or not. It did seem like information overload at first, but with
> a closer glance, it became evident that each had importance.<
> 
> To mating nudibranchs, perhaps.  Now, take my Arrick (don't 
you 
> DARE!).  You can look at the LED on the ADSR or the oscillator 
and 
> tell exactly what is going on (well, almost--Synthesizers.com 
LEDs on 
> the oscillators are 180 degrees out of phase with the output, 
but I 
> digress).  But what does a row of tri-colored LEDs signify?  A 
> pulsing red LED is more than enough to tell you what you need 
to 
> know.  A tri-colored LED is a lightshow.  Again, buy having a 
single 
> format that dictates LEDs *must* be present, you are locked 
into a 
> system in which some of those LEDs are guaranteed to be no 
more than 
> glorified power indicators.
> 
> BTW, if Doug wants to bring his Wiard to my pad and change 
my mind, 
> he is more than welcome!  I'm open to it.
> 
> JM

Easier,

-Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

RM wrote:

>Art is the transformation of the unknown by way of process and 
spirit.<

To me it is an interpretation of nature or experience.

>Sometimes accidents produce some elegant and not so elegant results.<

The not-so-elegant ones we call "mistakes."

>To keep it in the Arena of Painting, how would you classify Picasso?
A genius or a charlatan?<

Both!  His early work was masterful, but once he made a name, he 
figured out that people were willing to pay for his signature and, 
consequently, his art no longer needed to be meritorious.  Why slave 
for weeks or months over a painting when "Picasso" is all people 
really want to see?  I have seen Picasso drawings and "sculptures" of 
such childish ineptitude that without a name or provenance attached 
to them, you literally could not give them away.  This was also true 
of Dali, a painter of consummate skill in his early years, who later 
learned that a signature was all that was required from a modern 
audience willing to call anything "art."  Indeed, Dali became so 
lackadaisical about his work that he had other people create it.  And 
it didn't stop there:  "Dalis" are still being created after his 
death, thanks to a rubber stamp he made of his signature! 

But don't get me started about painting.  If you think I can spout 
off about synths, you ain't heard nothin' yet!

>>There is no real way to evaluate the sound of a 
blarkus or a blork, but if you set out to create French horn and it 
doesn't sound like it, then the faults will be immediately obvious.<<

>Yes, i agree with you here as well, but you are about talking 
imitating or modelling the sound of the French Horn. The French Horn 
existed before the Modular Synthesizer. How about creating new voices.
A most difficult task indeed.<

Not really.  I could create a "new voice" in 60 seconds and I'll bet 
you could too.  New sounds are as common as glass.  The trick is in 
creating appropriate ones.  I agree with you, however, that synthesis 
shouldn't be about imitation.  Even Carlos said there was no point in 
trying to synthesize a violin--just get a real one, for cryin' out 
loud!  Better to try for a "string-like sonority."

>The only experience I have had with the Wiard, was an original 6 
module system from one of the first ones out of the gate. I tried it 
over at a friend's place first. My friend lent me the manuals so i 
could come to grips with it's format. Afterward, he brought it over 
to my place for a few days.<

Who is this friend?  I want to get to know him.  :-)

>It very hard to describe, i would 
say, lock yourself in a room with the system, experiment and listen.<

It would be much cheaper to lock myself in a room with somebody 
else's system.  :-)

> I sometimes wonder, how these 
instruments would affected the likes of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven .etc 
with regards to compostion and intregation in an orchetral setting. 
Alas, we shall never know.<

That is why I am here to tell you.

Mozart would not have had the patience for analog synthesis.

Beethoven would not have been able to hear what he was doing, alas, 
and so creating new sounds would have been out of the question.

Bach would have been the most comfortable, given that the organ is 
the granddaddy of synthesizers.

>Switched on Bach was such a powerful performance, that the amount of 
copies sold at the time, dictated the commercial rush that ensued. 
Shameful for sure, although, there were some pleasnt surprises.<

Hans Wurman in particular.  But that's a discussion for another forum.

>People change with the passage of time. ;-)<

Indeed.  Ten years from now I could have a wall o' Wiard.  Stranger 
things have happened.

BTW, many of your points went unaddressed because I feel we are 
pretty much on the same page.  Now, what's the address of that friend 
who is so liberal with lending his Wiard?  :-)

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Mike Fisher wrote:

>One thing to consider is the concept of 
the dollar-vote. The Wiard is not an inexpensive instrument, yet 
there are a lot of people here who use one happily and feel their 
money well-spent. Perhaps there's something to say for "the proof is 
in the pudding", so to speak?<

Depends on the pudding.  Just because a synth is expensive does not 
make it good.  I can think of a popular, pricey synth whose ADSRs 
don't even have visual indicators.  But to each his own.

Now, are you SURE you won't let me into your studio?  :-)

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

Mike Peake wrote:

>It sounds like the Wiard is a piece of interactive art.<

Yes, but what are you reacting with, the circuitry or the graphics?

>An artistically engraved katana is still a deadly weapon... <

I'm going to have to look up "Katana."  Sounds like the name of a 
Russian synth.  :-)

>"What is this piece of music about? It's about itself!"
-composer's name temporarily misplaced..<

And rightly so.

Now that I think of it, if the Wiard is more Buchloid than Moogesque 
in its conception, why doesn't it use banana jacks?

johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by mark verbos

Buchlas also use 1/8" connectors.

konkuro wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>Now that I think of it, if the Wiard is more Buchloid than Moogesque 
>in its conception, why doesn't it use banana jacks?
>
>johnm
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Paul Schreiber

> 
> Depends on the pudding.  Just because a synth is
> expensive does not 
> make it good.  I can think of a popular, pricey
> synth whose ADSRs 
> don't even have visual indicators.  But to each his
> own.
>


Moog ADSRs? No visual indicators, 2 trims required to
get the 'hump' out of the output, non-industry
compatible trigger. What a piece of crap. Why *anyone*
wnats Moog EGs is beyond me.

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Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by grantrichter2001

> But this is like the cart driving the horse.  "Well, we have these 
> uniform panels with the same number of holes in them, so we 
had 
> better fill them with functions whether they are called for or not."  
> It's kind of like designing different cars, from Volkswagens to 
> Audis, and using the same body for all of them.  Form should 
follow 
> function.

The idea that form should follow function, is a very recent 
invention of the Bauhaus. It is convenient, because it reduces the 
cost of manufacture, and therefore widely accepted in the 
machine age.

But it is by no means a religion. Think about it, why should form 
follow function? Because it makes it cheaper to manufacture? 
How is this an aid to the imagination?

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Mike Fisher

> Depends on the pudding.  Just because a synth is expensive does not
> make it good.  I can think of a popular, pricey synth whose ADSRs
> don't even have visual indicators.  But to each his own.

Okay, that was probably a poor choice on my part - yes, of course 
there's expensive crap everywhere in the world. My intended point was 
that if the system is so egregious (which at times seems to be what 
you're suggesting), why is there a group of level-headed, more or less 
sane individuals who are quite knowledgeable on the topic yet happy 
using/having purchased it? Is it just possible that you're missing 
something?

>
> Now, are you SURE you won't let me into your studio?  :-)

I might have to, just to put an end to this. Where's the damn 
moderator, anyway!?

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by grantrichter2001

> Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a 
purpose.  If 
> the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, then what 
you 
> have is a toy or mere stage dressing.  Why not go all the way 
and add 
> spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders and other 
gewgaws?

You mean like the LED Barber Poles on the new Buchla 200 
modules?

> Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing 
> equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part.  
As 
> such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified* 
> exterior.

That is exactly what I was trying to do. Sorry you don't like it. Does 
a violin look unprofessional because it has scrollwork?

As far as the LEDs go:

All are Fairchild HMPL series except Woggle Bug that use 
Panasonic "Jellybean" LEDs. The Woggle Bug LEDs replicate 
the incandescent indicators on the Buchla 265 "Source of 
Uncertainty".

For the other modules they are organized in general categories 
by color. This comes from the slider coding on the ARP 
Odessey, but with different colors.

Bicolor LEDs (Off = white near 0 volts, Green = positive 
excursions Red = negative excursions) used on LFOs and 
bipolar modulation sources. Different waveforms are shown for 
phase reference.

Blue LEDs are used on each filter to show status.
Omni-Filter: Mode Lowpass, Bandpass, Highpass, Allpass
Borg Filter: In series with Vactrol LED shows filter envelope by 
brightness.

Red LEDs are used to show sequential states like sequencer 
step, or overload conditions in the VCAs.

Linear Yellow LED dot mode bargraph voltmeters used on 
evelopes. The envelope indicator on the Classic VCO has been 
changed to yellow.
Off = less than 2 volts
2 volt LED lights from 2-4 volts
4 volt LED lights from 4-6 volts
6 volt LED lights from 6-8 volts
8 volt LED lights for 8 volts and above at output

Exponential VU Meters used on each VCA and Omni-Filter.
Bargraph in bar mode.
Green -10 dBv (0.3 volts peak)
Green 0 dBv (1 volt peak)
Amber +10 dBv (3.34 volts peak)
Red +20 dBv (above 10 volts peak)

Waveform City uses 4 LEDs to show 16 knob positions
Weighted 8-4-2-1
Green for Waveform selection
Amber for Bank selection

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by skuehnl

Konkuro wrote:

> It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in 
> such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained 
> or untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look 
> like.

This is a highly offensive statement. I don't quite know what to say. 
Others with better verbal and English skills have already addressed 
this, so I will make my answer short and radical: this thinking is 
dangerous, defies communication, and can easily result in fascism. 
Your term "training" in this context is only acceptable as 
in "socialization" and communication, which is an ONGOING process of 
finding ways to meet individual and collective standards, not a 
process with an ultimately valid and static outcome.

I'm unfriendly? Yes. You say art is a form of communication, and I 
agree, but then you defy that statement with ignorance. Quoting you:

> I have never bought that argument.  There are universal constants
> of beauty that are built into the species.  A rose is as lovely and 
> smells as sweet in the USA as in China.  A plate of dog poo would 
> likely garner a negative reaction in both locales.

Certainly constants exist, but "universal" is a gross exaggeration of 
benchmarks. For example, you obviusly don't know about the fact that 
folks from different geographic locations see different colours. 
Japanese see blue and green as the same colour!!! And I have worked 
with so called "handicapped" people who used to eat things you 
LEARNED to abhor at since infancy, but which you used to eat as well 
when you were a baby. See my point here? Please be more specific than 
lazily referring to "universal" benchmarks. Even in such a most 
general thing as sexuality there are no universal rules.

> Then why even bother to create it?  If only you can understand and 
> appreciate something you create, why bother making it real?  Why 
> not just leave it as a thought in your own mind? 

Let's put this clear and honest: I'm sorry and at a loss of words for 
you poor guy if you have never enjoyed masturbation.


On another note: if you already abhor at the concept of decorative 
panel graphics from the start, then why are you concerned with the 
fact that the Wiard graphics aren't symmetric????
That's a contradiction and seems to me as if you just wanted to make 
n absolute statement at all costs.

I realize my statements may be offensive to you as well. But that's 
what you get for your gross black and white concept that everything 
that's not made the same way that Beethoven worked is just random 
nonsense. You ignor all inbetwen. At least that's what you sound like 
and I'm allergic to that.

SK

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by grantrichter2001

> Again I disagree.  Art is a form of communication.  What good 
would 
> Tolstoy have been if his novels were written only for himself?  
Of 
> what use would Mozart have been if he had locked himself in a 
closet 
> and composed music for his ears only?  Creating music for 
oneself is 
> enjoyable, but it is tantamount to aesthetic masturbation.  It 
may 
> good, but will never bear any offspring.

But they did exactly that. As it happened, the results which 
pleased them also please us. But I doubt they sat down with the 
concious intention of being "popular". Popularity is by definition, 
mediocre. You can't be "cutting edge" and popular at the same 
time because the cutting edge is that which the population has 
not caught up with yet.

Genius is assigned in retrospect, after the population has 
caught up with the artist.

  I also very much 
> appreciate being allowed to speak freely on your forum 
which--unlike 
> another forum--does not censor contrary opinions.

I make envelope generators that are also oscillators (and call 
them Envelators) it establishes that my view of reality is relatively 
pliable. I believe two sincere people can disagree, and both be 
right. The universe is large enough to contain multiple 
simultaneous realities. We should try that with our brains...

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by grantrichter2001

> I make envelope generators that are also oscillators (and call 
> them Envelators) it establishes that my view of reality is 
relatively 
> pliable. I believe two sincere people can disagree, and both be 
> right. The universe is large enough to contain multiple 
> simultaneous realities. We should try that with our brains...

As a further note. All of life is the attemp to find an acceptable 
resolution to multiple competeing and conflicting needs and 
desires simultaneously.

The adage that you "can't have your cake and eat it too" means 
you can't keep it to admire and derive nutrition from it also.

Stated broadly, art could be the sense of recognition that on feels 
when multiple conflicting requirements are resolved with an 
acceptable compromise (eat only the back half of the cake).

But any solution is always a compromise, so each success 
carries an element of failure. Art could be considered the 
mimization of the element of failure, and elegance when it is 
rendered nearly invisible (bake two cakes).

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Matthew Davidson

> The human race has traditionally recognized two distinct 
> classes of objects: Functional objects and aesthetic objects. 

I respectfully submit that efficient design can transform a 
functional object into an aesthetic object without additional 
ornamentation.

I think it is safe to say that most anyone who cultivates a modular 
in this day, views the instrument as some combination of 
functional and aesthetic object, regardless of origin.

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by Bill Sequeira

One interesting tidbit.

If Picasso had followed konkuro's statement we would've never seen
cubism appear.

Sometimes you have to consciously (or unconsciously) alter your aim
to arrive to new and interesting things.  Serendipity indeed plays
a role.

We could discuss the aesthetics of the movement, but such discussion
would not subtract from the technique itself.  It just would state
the subjectivity of human perception.

Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "skuehnl" <skuehnl@yahoo.de>
> Reply-To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:55:17 -0000
> To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which
> 
> Konkuro wrote:
> 
>> It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create
>> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in
>> such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained
>> or untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look
>> like.
> 
> This is a highly offensive statement. I don't quite know what to say.
> Others with better verbal and English skills have already addressed
> this, so I will make my answer short and radical: this thinking is
> dangerous, defies communication, and can easily result in fascism.
> Your term "training" in this context is only acceptable as
> in "socialization" and communication, which is an ONGOING process of
> finding ways to meet individual and collective standards, not a
> process with an ultimately valid and static outcome.
> 
> I'm unfriendly? Yes. You say art is a form of communication, and I
> agree, but then you defy that statement with ignorance. Quoting you:
> 
>> I have never bought that argument.  There are universal constants
>> of beauty that are built into the species.  A rose is as lovely and
>> smells as sweet in the USA as in China.  A plate of dog poo would
>> likely garner a negative reaction in both locales.
> 
> Certainly constants exist, but "universal" is a gross exaggeration of
> benchmarks. For example, you obviusly don't know about the fact that
> folks from different geographic locations see different colours.
> Japanese see blue and green as the same colour!!! And I have worked
> with so called "handicapped" people who used to eat things you
> LEARNED to abhor at since infancy, but which you used to eat as well
> when you were a baby. See my point here? Please be more specific than
> lazily referring to "universal" benchmarks. Even in such a most
> general thing as sexuality there are no universal rules.
> 
>> Then why even bother to create it?  If only you can understand and
>> appreciate something you create, why bother making it real?  Why
>> not just leave it as a thought in your own mind?
> 
> Let's put this clear and honest: I'm sorry and at a loss of words for
> you poor guy if you have never enjoyed masturbation.
> 
> 
> On another note: if you already abhor at the concept of decorative
> panel graphics from the start, then why are you concerned with the
> fact that the Wiard graphics aren't symmetric????
> That's a contradiction and seems to me as if you just wanted to make
> n absolute statement at all costs.
> 
> I realize my statements may be offensive to you as well. But that's
> what you get for your gross black and white concept that everything
> that's not made the same way that Beethoven worked is just random
> nonsense. You ignor all inbetwen. At least that's what you sound like
> and I'm allergic to that.
> 
> SK
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

Re:Synth Graphics...WHO KNEW!?!?

2002-11-20 by Auto-Bot

> > Again I disagree.  Art is a form of communication.
>  What good 
> would 
> > Tolstoy have been if his novels were written only for
> himself?  
> Of 
> > what use would Mozart have been if he had locked
> himself in a 
> closet 
> > and composed music for his ears only?  Creating music
> for 
> oneself is 
> > enjoyable, but it is tantamount to aesthetic
> masturbation.  It 
> may 
> > good, but will never bear any offspring.

i don't think i agree with the sentiment here.
i mean, it seems like it sort of comes from the point of
view that if you have a special talent/gift/whatever, that
you're obligated to share it with others. 
i think that's a completely personal decision that any
artist has to make individually and not a given. 

for many artists (especially those comfortable with
referring to themselves as such to whomever cares to
listen) the decision is an easy one and probably not even
thought of as being an option. i think yours is the more
common belief...if you make art in any form you must share
it. however, i'd argue that, more often than not, it's
borne out of ego rather than altruism.

perhaps i sound very selfish, but i think it's selfish to
believe that artists owe the world their art and that it's
fruitless if it isn't handed over.

art doesn't become valid when a person besides the artist
experiences it...rather, by the time people experience the
art, i would say that it's importance/value to the artist
has long since past and he/she is looking forward to the
next idea/work. to me, art starts with an idea and ends
when the idea is executed to the satisfaction (well, maybe
that's not quite the best word) of the artist.
after the artist has completed the work, a new journey
begins with a new work...the completed works are more like
mile markers for the jouney or headstones in homage to the
person the artist was when the work was done...

after the work is complete, if the artist chooses to share
it with others, it no longer belongs to them. it belongs to
whomever experiences it.
the same as the words that leave your mouth when you speak
them to another person. no matter what you meant or why you
said them, the moment they leave your lips it's no longer
up to you how they are percieved by their recipient...ever
play "telephone"? ever say something and have it taken the
wrong way?

if the artist was trying to communicate something, with
their work, some people will understand and others will
take it the wrong way. then critics and historians get
involved and the game of telephone begins...

regardless, if the artist chooses to destroy or not to
share their work, that's their creation and their
prerogative. and it's no shame, because art is about your
personal expression...learning more about yourself and/or
channeling things out of yourself that you have no other
way of getting out and/or making things for no other reason
than they're aesthetically pleasing to you and/or...

in closing, art doesn't have to be about communication...it
can be about destruction, creation, the sunset, the wind,
trash...things that don't need to be communicated to be
felt or meaningful and don't even need to be felt or
meaningful... 

and besides what the fuck do you have against masturbation
anyway!? :)

luv
rev.jon

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by ringmod45

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> RM wrote:
> > BTW, many of your points went unaddressed because I feel we are 
> pretty much on the same page.  Now, what's the address of that 
friend 
> who is so liberal with lending his Wiard?  :-)
> 
> johnm

Unfortunately, he sold it, thus the reason i had it at my place for a 
test drive. He decided to leave the analogue arena and go the 
software, laptop route. I couldn't muster up the funds quickly enough 
to buy the system. :( I really enjoyed the system. So much so, that 
when good fortunes come around, it will be one of the first 
instruments to come in to the studio, the other, a Latronic Notron 
Sequencer, if I can ever find one. Anybody?

RM

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-20 by konkuro

>>Depends on the pudding. Just because a synth is expensive does not 
make it good. I can think of a popular, pricey synth whose ADSRs 
don't even have visual indicators. But to each his own.<<

Paul S. wrote:

>Moog ADSRs? No visual indicators, 2 trims required to
get the 'hump' out of the output, non-industry
compatible trigger. What a piece of crap. Why *anyone*
wnats Moog EGs is beyond me.<

Yep, that must be the one.  They really are more useful when LEDs are 
added to them, don't you think?  But what I don't understand is, why 
would a purveyor of a *modern* ADSR not have learned from Bob Moog's 
past "mistake?"  It's not like LEDs are expensive or take up 
appreciable space. As I see it, not to put a visual indicator on an 
ADSR today is an oversight so egregious as to border on criminal.  

And, as we are learning, LEDs can be very pretty.  :-)

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by konkuro

Mike Fisher wrote:

>My intended point was  that if the system is so egregious (which at 
times seems to be what you're suggesting), why is there a group of 
level-headed, more or less sane individuals who are quite 
knowledgeable on the topic yet happy using/having purchased it?<

Because it's faster to get and cheaper than than Serge?

> Is it just possible that you're missing something?<

Yes. Which could be why I'm here.

>> Now, are you SURE you won't let me into your studio? :-)<<

>I might have to, just to put an end to this.<

OK!  But only if you're in the Bay Area.

>Where's the damn moderator, anyway!?<

What would there be for him to moderate?

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by grantrichter2001

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "Matthew Davidson" <matthew@b...> 
wrote:
> > The human race has traditionally recognized two distinct 
> > classes of objects: Functional objects and aesthetic objects. 
> 
> I respectfully submit that efficient design can transform a 
> functional object into an aesthetic object without additional 
> ornamentation.
> 
> I think it is safe to say that most anyone who cultivates a 
modular 
> in this day, views the instrument as some combination of 
> functional and aesthetic object, regardless of origin.

Let me see if I can restate this. The panel graphics are not there 
as some funky sales tool to fool you, the smart savvy buyer into 
thinking the Wiard is more than it is.

They are there to PROTECT THE INSTRUMENT!

Consider the following scenarios:

1. Children

Children love the Wiard and are fascinated by it. It's blue, has 
lots of twinkling lights and pictures of dragons on it. What kid 
wouldn't like that? Here's a chance to start growing a virtuoso 
from a very young age. When you die, your children argue over 
who get's the dragon synth.

2. Wifes

You die suddenly in a car wreck. Your widow, mad with grief, has 
you entire studio hauled away for $1. Because she's angry about 
the time you spent with it and not her. But not the blue synth, 
because she always kind of liked that one.

3. Lawyers

Your estate is probated by an attorney who can't tell a Moog 
modular from a toaster oven. But he can tell there is something 
extra ordinary about the Wiard, because it looks expensive. Once 
again, saved from the dumpster.

Musical instruments have lifespans in the hundreds of years and 
it is not just your life or your generation which is touched by them.

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by konkuro

Grant wrote:

>The idea that form should follow function, is a very recent 
invention of the Bauhaus. It is convenient, because it reduces the 
cost of manufacture, and therefore widely accepted in the 
machine age.<

Not entirely correct, *jai pence.*  The Bauhaus movement only co-
opted the phrase, just as Nike co-opted "Just Do It" (don't you hate 
when companies just do that?).  Form has followed function since the 
first tool was devised.  Why does a hammer have a heavy head and a 
long handle?  Why does a nail have a point on one end and a flat head 
on the other?  Why are the holes in a flute placed where they are?  
Now, consider your own synthesizer.  Why are the jacks placed on the 
front and not beneath the unit (which would leave more room for 
graphics)? Why are knobs round and not triangular?  

So you see, even Wiard is a slave to the form/function dictum. It's 
all a matter of how far one wants to carry it. The more the form 
maximizes the function, the more efficient  the tool.  To sacrifice 
form to aesthetics, even to a small degree, encroaches on the tool's 
efficiency.  

>But it is by no means a religion.<

No.  Just a mild obsession.  :-)

> Think about it, why should form follow function? Because it makes 
it cheaper to manufacture?<

That's one reason.  As for the other reason, vide supra. 

>How is this an aid to the imagination?<

How does a florid Celtic design aid the imagination of a kid who 
wants to produce distorted, mechanical techno?

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by konkuro

>> Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a 
purpose. If  the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, 
then what you  have is a toy or mere stage dressing. Why not go all 
the way and add spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders 
and other gewgaws?<<

Grant wrote:

>You mean like the LED Barber Poles on the new Buchla 200 
modules?<

I'm afraid I don't follow (and am almost afraid to find out).  Is 
there a url where I might see this tonsorial travesty?

>> Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and processing 
equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part. 
As such, it should be characterized by a functional and *dignified* 
exterior.<<

>That is exactly what I was trying to do. Sorry you don't like it. 
Does a violin look unprofessional because it has scrollwork?<

Yes, if that scrollwork hasn't been correctly centered.

BTW, I very much enjoyed your LED explanation and thank you for 
taking the time to enter it.  Perhaps there is some method to your 
madness after all.  But does an LED really have to be illuminated at 
the point of zero crossing?  (Since zero = nothing, how 'bout the LED 
is OFF at that point?)  Seems like overkill to me.  I have no problem 
with green for positive and red for negative, however.
And lest you think your arguments have been for naught, I'm actually 
more intrigued by Wiard than ever.

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by konkuro

>> It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in 
such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained 
or untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look 
like.<<

>This is a highly offensive statement.<

What, pray, could possibly be offensive about recognizing the skill 
of a great painter?

>I don't quite know what to say. 
Others with better verbal and English skills have already addressed 
this, so I will make my answer short and radical: this thinking is 
dangerous,<

"Dangerous?"  That's a new one.

>defies communication, and can easily result in fascism.<

Um....sure, if you say so.  Call 'em as you see 'em.

>I'm unfriendly? Yes.<

No.  Confused?  Yes.

>>You say art is a form of communication, and I 
agree, but then you defy that statement with ignorance. Quoting you:<<


>Certainly constants exist, but "universal" is a gross exaggeration 
of benchmarks. For example, you obviusly don't know about the fact 
that folks from different geographic locations see different colours. 
Japanese see blue and green as the same colour!!! <

Really makes you wonder how those Japanese wood block print artists 
managed to create blue skies, green trees, and blue water, doesn't it?
What planet are you from?

>And I have worked 
with so called "handicapped" people who used to eat things you 
LEARNED to abhor at since infancy, but which you used to eat as well 
when you were a baby.<

If you mean mentally handicapped, you can hardly use them as a metric 
for normal eating behavior.

>See my point here? Please be more specific than 
lazily referring to "universal" benchmarks. Even in such a most 
general thing as sexuality there are no universal rules.<

Again, universal constants are built into the species, whether you 
like it or not.  If a skunk sprayed you, you would not like it.  If a 
skunk sprayed a dog, the dog would not like it.  Obviously, there is 
a universal constant of "skunk smell = bad" for dogs, humans and 
other animals, or a skunk could not use odor as a defense!  By the 
same token a hideous demon mask from Bali would look just as hideous 
to a person from Ohio.  

Mull over the applicability of these truths to art and come back to 
me.


>Let's put this clear and honest: I'm sorry and at a loss of words 
for you poor guy if you have never enjoyed masturbation.<

I said *aesthetic* masturbation.  I've found that using an anesthetic 
makes the experience last sooooo much longer. :-)

>On another note: if you already abhor at the concept of decorative 
panel graphics from the start, then why are you concerned with the 
fact that the Wiard graphics aren't symmetric????<

I do not abhor them, I just see them as an odd choice for signal 
generation and processing equipment.  It's just 
so......so.....*Captain Nemo*, you know?

My point about the jacks cutting into the design instead of being 
centered was addressed to Grant.  If the design is as important as he 
says, and if he took as much care in creating the panels as we are to 
believe, then why didn't he find a way to center the jacks?  Trust 
me, it can be done.

>I realize my statements may be offensive to you as well.<
It takes a whole lot more to offend me than that.

>But that's what you get for your gross black and white concept that 
everything that's not made the same way that Beethoven worked is just 
random nonsense. You ignor all inbetwen. At least that's what you 
sound like and I'm allergic to that.<

Take 4 mg of chlorpheniramine maleate and call me in the morning.  :-)

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by its_peake

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> >> Maybe it's just me, but I think signal generation and 
processing 
> equipment that aspires to be professional should look the part. 
> As such, it should be characterized by a functional and 
*dignified* 
> exterior.<<
> 
> >That is exactly what I was trying to do. Sorry you don't like it. 
> Does a violin look unprofessional because it has scrollwork?<
> 
> Yes, if that scrollwork hasn't been correctly centered.

Doug indicated that the off-centered artwork on his modules
was because they were of the first batch, and that it has been
corrected since. 

As with the Modcan, I was pleasantly suprised by how much
better the Wiard looked in person than in pictures. 

> BTW, I very much enjoyed your LED explanation and thank you 
for 
> taking the time to enter it.  Perhaps there is some method to 
your 
> madness after all.  But does an LED really have to be 
illuminated at 
> the point of zero crossing?  (Since zero = nothing, how 'bout the 
LED 
> is OFF at that point?)  Seems like overkill to me.  I have no 
problem 
> with green for positive and red for negative, however.
> And lest you think your arguments have been for naught, I'm 
actually 
> more intrigued by Wiard than ever.
> 
> johnm

Agreed. I am as interested to hear of the "why" as much as
the "what"...and would have missed out on this aspect of the
Wiard philosophy without this bumpy conversation. 

Easier,

-Mike

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by konkuro

Forgot to address this one...

Bill wrote:

>If Picasso had followed konkuro's statement we would've never seen
cubism appear.<

Cubism, like pointillism, was a gimmick.  It was mannerism in the 
true sense of the word.  That is, the WAY in which the paintings were 
executed was deemed more important than the painting.  Such artistic 
affectations are two a penny and ultimately die a quick death (how 
many cubist paintings can you name?).

Forgive me for the O.T. tirade, but I just HAD to!  Art is a primary 
passion with me.

johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by Haven Siguenza

>> How is this an aid to the imagination?<
> 
> How does a florid Celtic design aid the imagination of a kid who
> wants to produce distorted, mechanical techno?
> 
> johnm

I don't think most kids could afford a Wiard. And I think most kids
presently would just use a stomp box and a drum machine. That is how most
distorted, mechanical techno is made after all. Although here is a tip for
all you big kids, if you ever use a TLA valve compressor/preamp try running
a drum machine directly into the mic input and setting it to heavy
compression - wow, beautiful detailed destruction. (and TLA compressors are
only around $2000...)

But for some good distorted mecanical techno made by a 17 year old with a
Apple IIe, Tr606, Paia 2720 modular and a Mutron Bi-phase I recomend "Don't
sweat the technics" by Kid606

-Haven

eat eat eat eat eat eat eat
http://www.cervix.net/

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by Derrick

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> Grant wrote:
> 
>   An instrument, by definition, is a 
> means to an end. It is the *music* that matters.  Thus, well-laid-
out 
> modules and meaningful names are of paramount importance.  They are 
> tools, not doilies.
> 
> As for the LEDs, I can't help but to question what information they 
> convey.  How is it that every Wiard module just so happens to have 
a 
> row of multicolored LEDS at the top?  Why must they be so closely 
> spaced together? It is as though uniformity takes precedence over 
> functionality in the Wiard World.  I recently watched a Wiard 
module 
> in action and found the LEDs pretty, but not particularly 
> informative.  Dudes, this is *equipment,* not an effing Christmas 
> tree!  Superfluity has no place in the modular realm.  There is 
music 
> to be made!  (An aside: How come nobody with a Wiard does 
classical?)

I just wanted to comment here...THough I dont own a Wiard, or a 
Serge, or an MOTM for that matter I am a musician/composer and have 
been for many years and I must say that the sexiest thing about a 
synth to me is the look! I may stand alone but for me , my motto 
is "the more color the better!" Serge and Modcan with their 
multicolored bannana jacks, and EMS synths with theyre colourful 
chunky knobs and bright blue keyboards make me think of one thing.. 
Not functionality, not even asthetics for that matter... No, they 
remind me of Candy.. Plain and simple.. Big chunky peices of candy 
that also happen to make some amazing noises! Now, I dont know about 
any of you, but I personally love candy.. So even though I want a 
synth that is as practical and simple as a minimoog yet as complex 
and challenging as a Serge or an EMS synthi 100, I still want it to 
look like it was desingned by Willy Wonka and a crew of Oompa 
Loompas.... WHy ? Because modular synths can take time off of your 
life.. so much time staring into a field of knobs, switches and 
patchcords.. Wouldnt you like to be looking at something that is 
asthetically pleasing to your eye? I know I would.. By the way in an 
email to Robin Wood of EMS I inquired about some of the more 
important features found on the current production EMS Synthis, (one 
of which I am signed up for)... His response to me? "....and YES they 
do still feature the all important COLOURED KNOBS" Just my 2 cents.. 
Cant wait to start Wogglin'!!

Derrick Espino

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-21 by Bill Sequeira

> From: "konkuro" <konkuro@aol.com>
> 
> Forgot to address this one...
> 
> Bill wrote:
> 
>> If Picasso had followed konkuro's statement we would've never seen
> cubism appear.<
> 
> Cubism, like pointillism, was a gimmick.  It was mannerism in the
> true sense of the word.  That is, the WAY in which the paintings were
> executed was deemed more important than the painting.  Such artistic
> affectations are two a penny and ultimately die a quick death (how
> many cubist paintings can you name?).
> 
> Forgive me for the O.T. tirade, but I just HAD to!  Art is a primary
> passion with me.

No problem, I personally do not care for cubism either and have my
own opinions about.  However, I can't discount its place within the
art movement regardless of what I think.  Sometimes these "gimmicks"
are stepping stones, and we have to let them happen (or tolerate them
if you prefer).  

Re: Wiard and its graphics, I am glad it exists and makes a statement.
The mere fact that you have a reaction to it, strong as it may, is an
indication of someone (in this case Grant) taking the time to make
something different, that would be appreciated by some and disliked by
others.

Now, I have been curious about something...if you were to design a
synth, panel and electronics, how would you do it?  How would you blend
your love for art with your love for electronics?  Grant obviously has
an interpretation, and I would love to hear about your view.



Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock

Dragons, skunks and personal aesthetics

2002-11-21 by skuehnl

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "konkuro" <konkuro@a...> wrote:
> >> It takes a great deal of talent, skill and time to create 
> a painting of a person that looks like a person, and any defects in 
> such a painting will be immediately apparent to all eyes, trained 
> or untrained, because we all know what a person is supposed to look 
> like.<<
> 
> >This is a highly offensive statement.<
> 
> What, pray, could possibly be offensive about recognizing the skill 
> of a great painter?

I was referring to the statement "we all know what a person is 
supposed to look like". "Supposed" by YOU, yes?


> Really makes you wonder how those Japanese wood block print artists 
> managed to create blue skies, green trees, and blue water, doesn't 
> it? What planet are you from?

Planet Earth, and I have a Japanese step mother.


> >And I have worked 
> with so called "handicapped" people who used to eat things you 
> LEARNED to abhor at since infancy, but which you used to eat as 
well 
> when you were a baby.<
> 
> If you mean mentally handicapped, you can hardly use them as a 
metric 
> for normal eating behavior.

Right, and, I don't do that, but I advocate not telling them what "we 
are supposed to" do/ like/ dislike/ etc.

I, for an example, like to watch the movements of spastically 
handicapped people walking (those who can, obviously). They are 
highly aesthetic to me.

There is no chauvinsim in this facsination, it's just a fetish (not a 
sexual one, either) just like someone else might be facsinated by big 
noses or whatever.

I obviusly would never request from anyone that they see the same 
aesthetic in there because it's something PERSONAL. Anyone who would 
just be repulsed by the spastic movements would have my complete 
understanding, also.


Now what if I made a film that shows these "special" people in a 
graceful way and made my personal fascinations "mediatable" 
and "transferrable" to others? Without caring if these other might be 
ignorant or openminded; only motivated by carrying my own view?




_THAT_ is ART and communication.





> Again, universal constants are built into the species, whether you 
> like it or not.  If a skunk sprayed you, you would not like it.  If 
a 
> skunk sprayed a dog, the dog would not like it.  Obviously, there 
is 
> a universal constant of "skunk smell = bad" for dogs, humans and 
> other animals, or a skunk could not use odor as a defense!

But other skunks like the smell!


> By the 
> same token a hideous demon mask from Bali would look just as 
hideous 
> to a person from Ohio.  

Bullsh't. I have a demon mask from Bali hanging over my bed. I do not 
believe that it keeps demons away, but it certainly makes me laugh 
when I see it and gives a good start into the day.

I don't care about elaborating my points any further, because you 
just don't WANT to accept that your rules aren't universal. (Of 
course I also only see what I want to see.)

And as for the fascism comment - let me refer to the inhumane concept 
of "Entartete Kunst", which you are definetely prone to, and leave it 
there.

By now.

Kuehnl

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by konkuro

Bill wrote:

>No problem, I personally do not care for cubism either and have my
own opinions about.  However, I can't discount its place within the
art movement regardless of what I think.  Sometimes these "gimmicks"
are stepping stones, and we have to let them happen (or tolerate them
if you prefer).<  

Oh, I disagree.  Just because something causes a reaction doesn't 
mean it has merit.  Poison ivy causes a reaction.  

Now, I'm not saying this is the case with Wiard.  It's actually part 
of the art argument, and I can't go there, alas,lest we stray too far 
off topic.

>Now, I have been curious about something...if you were to design a
synth, panel and electronics, how would you do it? How would you blend
your love for art with your love for electronics? Grant obviously has
an interpretation, and I would love to hear about your view.<

I'll do more than that; I'll show you.  If you go to the Photos 
section, and click on the Mitchell folder, you will find a picture of 
a vocoder I built in 1980. Although there are things I'd change 
today, it will give you some idea of where I'm coming from.  This 
folder and picture will be removed in a day or two to make room for 
Wiard-related stuff.  So have at it, lads!  

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by jrbulldogge

> I'll do more than that; I'll show you.  If you go to the Photos 
> section, and click on the Mitchell folder, you will find a picture 
of 
> a vocoder I built in 1980. Although there are things I'd change 
> today, it will give you some idea of where I'm coming from.  This 
> folder and picture will be removed in a day or two to make room 
for 
> Wiard-related stuff.  So have at it, lads!  
> 
> johnm

No offense, but I must say that's not what I call an atractive 
musical instrument or device.  It's both boring and ugly, about the 
two most damning things I can say regarding a design (boring but 
attractive is fine, a black Steinway; ugly but interesting is fine, 
at least it makes me look--boring and ugly is just a waste).  The 
grey is reminiscent of a hospital or old school building--something 
that's in desperate need of a new paint job and a new scheme 
altogether.  The blue is listless, adding no vibrancy or energy to 
the piece, but just sitting there, innoffensively, ignorably.  The 
red lights are nice, but the overall symetric scheme of the grey 
around the jacks lessens their impact by making them a part of a 
uniform grid.  

I would suggest avoiding grey on the upper part, and instead using a 
rich blue, perhaps something darker and certainly something less 
washed-out.  Then, instead of a grid pattern where every block is 
filled, create negative space.  Have every other jack pair be 
outlined, or use an S-shape to join the first upper jack to the 
second lower jack and so on (perhaps in a symetrical pattern 
pointing towards the center).  Instead of having the red lights be 
seperated from the colored section, incorporate them to again break 
up the grid feeling and decrease top-bottom symettry as well as 
connecting the lights to the jacks, which would emphasize their 
function.  As for the bottom of the unit, I'd have this echo the 
top, but where the top focuses on up/down shapes perhaps rotate the 
S or the like to it's side.  

Actually, a dark red might be good--not too orange, but not blood 
red either.  I was at a harpsichord gallery today and they had a red-
on-black single manual that was quite stunning--not ostentatious, 
but a strong statement nonetheless.

Of course, if you like it, that's what matters, just if it was me...

JR "Bulldogge" Ross
& Snuffy, too:)

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by konkuro

Bill wrote:

>I took a look, thanks for sharing.<

Hey any time.  Why should Grant be the only one with his balls in a 
vice, if you'll pardon the crude analogy?

>Given that I have only the benefit of the small pic, it appears -from
this design- that you are an advocate for panel graphics that support
the visual understanding of the functionality of an instrument, that
are legible, that separate functions visually, and that support the
procedural flow of a human operator.<

Yes, yes, YES!!

Sadly, what you see is a JPEG of a scan of a photo, so the crispness 
is lost.  But everything on that panel has meaning, even 
the "listless blue," to quote Bulldogge.  

FWIW, that panel is hand drilled, hand masked and spraypainted, with 
hand-transferred lettering.

>But I am not sure that I would consider this particular instrument
as an example of meshing art with electronics.<

It isn't.  It's about meshing electronics with electronics.  I did 
not create that vocoder as furniture, but as a signal processing 
device.

>Wiard's graphics are of a different nature. We may discuss the fact 
that they perhaps do not support the functionality of the synth and 
so it could be a design
weakness, yet they support the personality of the instrument, and that
is a strength in differentiating itself from the rest and creating an
emotional connection.<

This is really going to get me in trouble, but the ideal synth should 
have no personality.  It should be a pure means to an end. The panel 
of a synth should help you to achieve a sound, not entertain you.  
For the most part.

>Speaking for myself, I consider an instrument's personality as one of
the key attributes I evaluate, on par with its functionality, when I
decide to adopt a system. Given that learning a new instrument 
requires
a time investment on my part, I try to make sure that my enjoyment of
the instrument is as high as possible. I may dismiss some systems as
being "too square" for me. Yet I am sure other folks would enjoy them
just as much. Regardless of anyone's sanction of merit, it is a
personal relationship (if such term can be applied) between a player
and his/her instrument, as there is that emotional connection. 
Otherwise
the instrument will eventually become a glorified paper weight. Some
prefer "unique", others prefer "pure".<

But is a hammer just a glorified paperweight in the hands of a master 
carpenter?  I have seen many a beautiful piece of furniture, yet I 
have yet to see a hammer that was exquisitely carved.

Did Wendy Carlos need modules festooned with convoluted arabesques to 
create The Well Tempered Synthesizer?  Would they have helped in any 
way?

>Which leads me to believe that Wiard's art does not create that
emotional connection that you seek; hence, even if functionally
exceptional, it is probably not the instrument for you.<

Yes.  And no!  I'd love to get my hands on one for a week.

johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by Bill Sequeira

> From: "konkuro" <konkuro@aol.com>
> Reply-To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:41:27 -0000
> To: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which
> 
[...8<..] 
> 
> Oh, I disagree.  Just because something causes a reaction doesn't
> mean it has merit.  Poison ivy causes a reaction.

By the same argument, it also does not mean it doesn't.  :-)

> Now, I'm not saying this is the case with Wiard.  It's actually part
> of the art argument, and I can't go there, alas,lest we stray too far
> off topic.

The art thread was not meant to start a discussion of art; rather, to
serve as an analogy for why forms deemed by some as intermediate or
flat out useless are as important in developing a path to interesting
results.  

>> Now, I have been curious about something...if you were to design a
> synth, panel and electronics, how would you do it? How would you blend
> your love for art with your love for electronics? Grant obviously has
> an interpretation, and I would love to hear about your view.<
> 
> I'll do more than that; I'll show you.  If you go to the Photos
> section, and click on the Mitchell folder, you will find a picture of
> a vocoder I built in 1980. Although there are things I'd change
> today, it will give you some idea of where I'm coming from.  This
> folder and picture will be removed in a day or two to make room for
> Wiard-related stuff.  So have at it, lads!

I took a look, thanks for sharing.

Given that I have only the benefit of the small pic, it appears -from
this design- that you are an advocate for panel graphics that support
the visual understanding of the functionality of an instrument, that
are legible, that separate functions visually, and that support the
procedural flow of a human operator.  Not bad design principles for
functional systems.

But I am not sure that I would consider this particular instrument
as an example of meshing art with electronics.   Wiard's graphics are
of a different nature.  We may discuss the fact that they perhaps do
not support the functionality of the synth and so it could be a design
weakness, yet they support the personality of the instrument, and that
is a strength in differentiating itself from the rest and creating an
emotional connection.

Speaking for myself, I consider an instrument's personality as one of
the key attributes I evaluate, on par with its functionality, when I
decide to adopt a system.  Given that learning a new instrument requires
a time investment on my part, I try to make sure that my enjoyment of
the instrument is as high as possible.  I may dismiss some systems as
being "too square" for me.  Yet I am sure other folks would enjoy them
just as much.   Regardless of anyone's sanction of merit, it is a
personal relationship (if such term can be applied) between a player
and his/her instrument, as there is that emotional connection.  Otherwise
the instrument will eventually become a glorified paper weight. Some
prefer "unique", others prefer "pure".

Which leads me to believe that Wiard's art does not create that
emotional connection that you seek; hence, even if functionally
exceptional, it is probably not the instrument for you.



Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by andrew dalio

RE: graphics, a paraphrase from Frank Zappa: If it looks bitchin' 
to you - it is. If it doesn't look bitchin' to you - it isn't. Or, as recently 
restated by Kawabata from Acid Mothers Temple: Do whatever 
you want to do; don't do whatever you don't want to do.

love and kisses,

-andrew bunny

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-22 by Bill Sequeira

> From: "konkuro" <konkuro@aol.com>
>
> [...8<...]
>> But I am not sure that I would consider this particular instrument
> as an example of meshing art with electronics.<
> 
> It isn't.  It's about meshing electronics with electronics.  I did
> not create that vocoder as furniture, but as a signal processing
> device.

Exactly my point, as the comparison was between apples and oranges.
While I would never place a functional vocoder in a living area, a Wiard
has a personality that transforms it into a conversation piece, even
among those that do not value synths as much as we do.  The nature of
the graphics in both instruments serves a different purpose.

>> Wiard's graphics are of a different nature. We may discuss the fact
> that they perhaps do not support the functionality of the synth and
> so it could be a design
> weakness, yet they support the personality of the instrument, and that
> is a strength in differentiating itself from the rest and creating an
> emotional connection.<
> 
> This is really going to get me in trouble, but the ideal synth should
> have no personality.  It should be a pure means to an end. The panel
> of a synth should help you to achieve a sound, not entertain you.
> For the most part.

No trouble, but some people revel in looking at an instrument for the
instrument itself - that is a fact of life.  I contemplate my Serge
from time to time, and admire it as an electronic sculpture of sorts.
I am sure folks have the same reaction to their instruments of choice.
You probably have this feeling about your vocoder and that is a good
thing. 

As a side example, many of us in this list own Fenixes.  The Fenix is
an instrument that has been criticized for the lack of symmetry in its
functions (a forte, IMO) and the quirky-hard-to-follow graphics located
in the banana patch bay area.  Not exactly functional, nor pure nor
square, yet it has a personality that is hard not to love.

But I do understand.  Maybe the best example of such principle is the
ARP 2600, where the panel shows the actual flow of the instrument and
is 100% supportive of music making.

> [...8<...]
> 
> But is a hammer just a glorified paperweight in the hands of a master
> carpenter?  I have seen many a beautiful piece of furniture, yet I
> have yet to see a hammer that was exquisitely carved.
> 
> Did Wendy Carlos need modules festooned with convoluted arabesques to
> create The Well Tempered Synthesizer?  Would they have helped in any
> way?

I am afraid I disagree with the example being presented. An example of
one in some realm of discourse does not prove or disprove a statement,
it  merely exemplifies it. The hammer example, unfortunately, does not
illustrate the point being discussed - if you talk about a hammer, then
we should be talking about screwdrivers, clearly not the center of our
discussion.

Have you seen the Baroque clavichords, their ornaments and fine woods?
It is possible to play an object of beauty as beauty does not detract
from the music being made.  And some people would even find that such
ornamentation actually enhances their appreciation of the music being
performed, or heard.

I don't know Wendy Carlos personally, but I would venture that she
could make music on either, and would have enough artistic sensitivity
to appreciate an object for what it is.  It is unlikely that ornaments
would enhance an instrument, although the holes in a Gibson ES335 come
as close as you can get to a blend of art and function.  What could be
said is that the emotional response of a player performing on such
instrument is enhanced or detracted by the reaction of the performer
to the instrument.  I doubt that someone as Wendy Carlos would approach
an antique clavichord in the same way she would a vocoder.

Again, it is a personal thing to find Wiard's graphics beautiful or
detracting - it all comes down to a matter of taste.

>> Which leads me to believe that Wiard's art does not create that
> emotional connection that you seek; hence, even if functionally
> exceptional, it is probably not the instrument for you.<
> 
> Yes.  And no!  I'd love to get my hands on one for a week.

I understand.  There are things that grow on you - a Wiard might be one
of those.


Regards,

Bill
______________________________________________________________________
 Bill Sequeira, Ph.D.
 Principal, Axon Hillock

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-28 by grantrichter2001

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "grantrichter2001" <grichter@a...> wrote:
> > Lights have a purpose, just as knobs and switches have a 
> purpose.  If 
> > the idea of LEDs is to entertain moreso than inform, then 
what 
> you 
> > have is a toy or mere stage dressing.  Why not go all the way 
> and add 
> > spinning disks, glowing red dials, Jacob's ladders and other 
> gewgaws?
> 
> You mean like the LED Barber Poles on the new Buchla 200 
> modules?
> 

Which can be seen at:

http://www.buchla.com/BarberShoppe/index.htm

Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human friendly 
elements.

Also note that the Wiard "Riverdance" logo font is American 
Uncial, exactly as used by both Sequential Circuits for the 
Prophet series and Polyfusion for their logo. A fine bloodline in 
my estimation.

And, yes I was quit serious, I have built many slinky reverbs and 
taught others how to do so.

It is a small world.

Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-11-28 by chriswhittenmusic

> Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human friendly 
> elements.
> 
Yeah, that's the one thing I don't like about the module.
Barber Shoppe - quite tacky IMHO.
Sorry to be brutal but it has to be said.
Would you want to buy something called 'Win One For The Gipper'?
That's the kind of level we're talking UK-wise, shopee-wise.
CW

Re: Synth Graphics, but if we have to go back....

2002-11-28 by gcmci

In a dark room, most of this stuff looks pretty much the same.  In 
operation, Grant's modules have a very high quality tactile feel to 
them - the positive click of the jacks and the touch of the pots when 
you adjust them. 

	It seems to me, that if we have to go back into the past to dig up 
some "new" idea using old concepts (like a vc "Barber Pole" phaser),  
what we need is a modern version of the Buchla Quad locator - except in 
5.1.  Nobody seems interested in building a voltage controlled 5 
channel panner, but I suspect that it would be quite useful...


gc

--- In wiardgroup@y..., "chriswhittenmusic" <cw.chris@z...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human friendly 
> > elements.
> > 
> Yeah, that's the one thing I don't like about the module.
> Barber Shoppe - quite tacky IMHO.
> Sorry to be brutal but it has to be said.
> Would you want to buy something called 'Win One For The Gipper'?
> That's the kind of level we're talking UK-wise, shopee-wise.
> CW

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-12-01 by konkuro

Grant wrote:

>Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human friendly 
elements.<

So far as I know, the classic Buchla 100 and 200 series are short on 
gewgaws, so that module really won't match.  I also would not find 
superfluity "human friendly," but where know where I'm coming from.

>Also note that the Wiard "Riverdance" logo font is American 
Uncial, exactly as used by both Sequential Circuits for the 
Prophet series and Polyfusion for their logo. A fine bloodline in 
my estimation.<

'Tis not the font but the graphics that give Wiard its Riverdance 
reputation.

>And, yes I was quit serious, I have built many slinky reverbs and 
taught others how to do so. It is a small world.<

*GASP*  So, in some small, obscure way, you are partially my 
creation?  WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT?!

Let me help you take Wiard to the next level...

johnm

Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-12-01 by grantrichter2001

> Let me help you take Wiard to the next level...
> 
> johnm

THANK GOD you both know what the next level is, and are willing 
to share this advanced knowledge with the inferior creatures that 
infest your Universe.

Please, do go on...

A New Discussion (was: Synth Graphics, speaking of which)

2002-12-02 by Mike Fisher

Gentlemen (and Ladies as the case may be),

As you probably all know, I make it a point not to censor/edit the list 
content, or intervene in any way unless I have something to add. 
However in this particular case I'm making an exception because I think 
we're rapidly veering towards non-constructive territory. I suspect I'm 
not the only one that feels we've played out the discussion on panel 
graphics, at least from the perspective of who likes and dislikes what, 
and why.

We've heard from a number of people with varied backgrounds, interests, 
and opinions on the subject. As one might expect with an issue as 
subjective and personal as the visual arts, there are a variety of 
opinions, each perfectly valid in its own right.

I agree with the previous poster (was it Dr. Mabuce?) who commented 
that it's great to see such passionate discussion about art & music. 
But now let me suggest that we move on to different subject matter.

Sebastian Kuehnl was kind enough to contribute a very interesting 
patch. This is excellent timing, as I was planning to post a sort of 
"call for patch examples" this week. The idea is to encourage those 
with Wiard systems at their disposal to create and document a single 
favorite or interesting patch (more would be great, but at least one), 
with a text description like Sebastian's, as well as an MP3 of the 
sound in action. The sound files and patches will ultimately end up in 
the Files section. In this manner we can accomplish several ends: we 
can provide impetus for the discussion of Wiard functionality and 
sound, and provide the Wiard-interested members some tangible examples 
of what the Wiard sounds like, why we like it, and how we're using it. 
I'll be posting at least one patch later this week.

Any other takers?

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:31 AM, konkuro wrote:

> Grant wrote:
>
>> Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human friendly
> elements.<
>
> So far as I know, the classic Buchla 100 and 200 series are short on
> gewgaws, so that module really won't match.  I also would not find
> superfluity "human friendly," but where know where I'm coming from.
>
>> Also note that the Wiard "Riverdance" logo font is American
> Uncial, exactly as used by both Sequential Circuits for the
> Prophet series and Polyfusion for their logo. A fine bloodline in
> my estimation.<
>
> 'Tis not the font but the graphics that give Wiard its Riverdance
> reputation.
>
>> And, yes I was quit serious, I have built many slinky reverbs and
> taught others how to do so. It is a small world.<
>
> *GASP*  So, in some small, obscure way, you are partially my
> creation?  WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT?!
>
> Let me help you take Wiard to the next level...
>
> johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Fwd: [AH] Re: Synth Graphics, speaking of which

2002-12-02 by Auto-Bot

"grantrichter2001" <grichter@asapnet.net> wrote:
> > Let me help you take Wiard to the next level...
> > 
> > johnm
> 
> THANK GOD you both know what the next level is, and are
> willing 
> to share this advanced knowledge with the inferior
> creatures that 
> infest your Universe.
> 
> Please, do go on...
> 

hahaha...funny, that's what's i was thinking...
my curiosity is piqued! 
it's rare to see such a wondrously altruistic offer made
these days...if only this guy had been around when the
wiard was being designed, it would've saved many people on
this list from owning an inferior synth!
oh well...better lat than never, i always say!

love
revjon

Re: [wiardgroup] A New Discussion (was: Synth Graphics, speaking of which)

2002-12-02 by Auto-Bot

you're absolutely right...sorry, ignore my last post...
i was actually enjoying the discussion, but when konkuro
(johnm) said that thing about taking it "to the next
level", it sort of rubbed me the wrong way...i'm sure i'm
not alone on that one...
it was definitely nice to hear from Dr.M again...i thought
it was odd that he wasn't chiming in earlier...but as usual
he came through with a great post that was both thoughtful
and humorous...
i really enjoyed reading everyone's philosophical takes on
music and design and what-not, as well...it certainly made
me feel hopeful about art, in general...it's pretty easy to
become cynical about such things and it helps to be
reminded that there is a lot of passion and intelligence
out there...
i do have to say that, considering the subject matter and
strength of opinions, i'm quite impressed at how long this
discussion has gone on in a respectful and (i would say)
fruitful manner...it's the best i've seen in my experience
on discussion lists...
anyway...

take care
rev,jon




On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:42:57 -0700
 Mike Fisher <mbfisher@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Gentlemen (and Ladies as the case may be),
> 
> As you probably all know, I make it a point not to
> censor/edit the list 
> content, or intervene in any way unless I have something
> to add. 
> However in this particular case I'm making an exception
> because I think 
> we're rapidly veering towards non-constructive territory.
> I suspect I'm 
> not the only one that feels we've played out the
> discussion on panel 
> graphics, at least from the perspective of who likes and
> dislikes what, 
> and why.
> 
> We've heard from a number of people with varied
> backgrounds, interests, 
> and opinions on the subject. As one might expect with an
> issue as 
> subjective and personal as the visual arts, there are a
> variety of 
> opinions, each perfectly valid in its own right.
> 
> I agree with the previous poster (was it Dr. Mabuce?) who
> commented 
> that it's great to see such passionate discussion about
> art & music. 
> But now let me suggest that we move on to different
> subject matter.
> 
> Sebastian Kuehnl was kind enough to contribute a very
> interesting 
> patch. This is excellent timing, as I was planning to
> post a sort of 
> "call for patch examples" this week. The idea is to
> encourage those 
> with Wiard systems at their disposal to create and
> document a single 
> favorite or interesting patch (more would be great, but
> at least one), 
> with a text description like Sebastian's, as well as an
> MP3 of the 
> sound in action. The sound files and patches will
> ultimately end up in 
> the Files section. In this manner we can accomplish
> several ends: we 
> can provide impetus for the discussion of Wiard
> functionality and 
> sound, and provide the Wiard-interested members some
> tangible examples 
> of what the Wiard sounds like, why we like it, and how
> we're using it. 
> I'll be posting at least one patch later this week.
> 
> Any other takers?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> On Sunday, December 1, 2002, at 01:31 AM, konkuro wrote:
> 
> > Grant wrote:
> >
> >> Notice the use of decorative fonts, and other human
> friendly
> > elements.<
> >
> > So far as I know, the classic Buchla 100 and 200 series
> are short on
> > gewgaws, so that module really won't match.  I also
> would not find
> > superfluity "human friendly," but where know where I'm
> coming from.
> >
> >> Also note that the Wiard "Riverdance" logo font is
> American
> > Uncial, exactly as used by both Sequential Circuits for
> the
> > Prophet series and Polyfusion for their logo. A fine
> bloodline in
> > my estimation.<
> >
> > 'Tis not the font but the graphics that give Wiard its
> Riverdance
> > reputation.
> >
> >> And, yes I was quit serious, I have built many slinky
> reverbs and
> > taught others how to do so. It is a small world.<
> >
> > *GASP*  So, in some small, obscure way, you are
> partially my
> > creation?  WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT?!
> >
> > Let me help you take Wiard to the next level...
> >
> > johnm
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

Re: A New Discussion (was: Synth Graphics, speaking of which)

2002-12-02 by konkuro

>i was actually enjoying the discussion, but when konkuro
(johnm) said that thing about taking it "to the next
level", it sort of rubbed me the wrong way...<


Er....  It wasn't a serious comment!

If I wanted to give Grant serious design tips I'd do so in email.  
And certainly not for free!   :-)

johnm

Re: [wiardgroup] Re: A New Discussion (was: Synth Graphics, speaking of which)

2002-12-02 by Auto-Bot

my bad...
it's easy to misunderstand sometimes in print (or whatever
this is) the tone with which someone says something...it
didn't seem *TOO* unreasonable to me at the time...after
all, you weren't giving free design advice, it sounded like
an inference that grant should contact you to seek your
guidance, wisdom and collaboration...
reading too much in, i guess...
like i said: my bad!

take care
rev.jon


On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 20:52:28 -0000
 "konkuro" <konkuro@aol.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >i was actually enjoying the discussion, but when konkuro
> (johnm) said that thing about taking it "to the next
> level", it sort of rubbed me the wrong way...<
> 
> 
> Er....  It wasn't a serious comment!
> 
> If I wanted to give Grant serious design tips I'd do so
> in email.  
> And certainly not for free!   :-)
> 
> johnm
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> wiardgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

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