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newbie looking for advice

newbie looking for advice

2008-02-25 by Philip Hahn

Good Afternoon,

I'm looking into digging into AVR's and looking for some advice before
I spend any money. My goal is to do some robotics control projects,
preferably programming in C/C++ although I think it would be valuable
to learn the native instruction set as well. No more than 4 motors and
4-10 simple sensors to start, so not an insane amount of I/O or I/O
processing.

I have some experience with PIC's and the Motorola MC68HC11, although
I've always programmed in higher level languages (InteractiveC, and
whatever the PIC basic language is called), so I'm not a complete
newbie when it comes to microprocessors. I have the basic electronics
test equipment and supplies, etc.

What would you guys recommend as a "starter kit" to start learning and
then proceed forward with some projects? An ISP and some chips or a
prefabbed board? I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks,

Philip

Re: [AVR-Chat] newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by Philippe Habib

I was pretty impressed by the BD Micro Maveric board.  For about $130  
you get the micro, all of the I/O brought out and a handful of  
peripherals.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Feb 25, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Philip Hahn wrote:

> Good Afternoon,
>
> I'm looking into digging into AVR's and looking for some advice before
> I spend any money. My goal is to do some robotics control projects,
> preferably programming in C/C++ although I think it would be valuable
> to learn the native instruction set as well. No more than 4 motors and
> 4-10 simple sensors to start, so not an insane amount of I/O or I/O
> processing.
>
> I have some experience with PIC's and the Motorola MC68HC11, although
> I've always programmed in higher level languages (InteractiveC, and
> whatever the PIC basic language is called), so I'm not a complete
> newbie when it comes to microprocessors. I have the basic electronics
> test equipment and supplies, etc.
>
> What would you guys recommend as a "starter kit" to start learning and
> then proceed forward with some projects? An ISP and some chips or a
> prefabbed board? I'm open to any suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Philip
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by dlc

There are a couple of nice places to go for AVR stuff.

http://www.bdmicro.com
http://www.pololu.com

Are my favorites for reasonably priced boards with very good hardware 
functionality and support libraries.  There are other places for 
ultra-low cost boards, but they tend to be little more than chips 
soldered onto breakout boards (lots and lots of pins, but no support 
devices.)

DLC

Philip Hahn wrote:
> Good Afternoon,
> 
> I'm looking into digging into AVR's and looking for some advice before
> I spend any money. My goal is to do some robotics control projects,
> preferably programming in C/C++ although I think it would be valuable
> to learn the native instruction set as well. No more than 4 motors and
> 4-10 simple sensors to start, so not an insane amount of I/O or I/O
> processing.
> 
> I have some experience with PIC's and the Motorola MC68HC11, although
> I've always programmed in higher level languages (InteractiveC, and
> whatever the PIC basic language is called), so I'm not a complete
> newbie when it comes to microprocessors. I have the basic electronics
> test equipment and supplies, etc.
> 
> What would you guys recommend as a "starter kit" to start learning and
> then proceed forward with some projects? An ISP and some chips or a
> prefabbed board? I'm open to any suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Philip
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------
Dennis Clark          TTT Enterprises
www.techtoystoday.com
-------------------------------------------------

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Hahn" <everphilski@...> 
wrote:

> What would you guys recommend
> as a "starter kit" ...

I think you should look in the tools section of AVRFreaks, where you 
will find a wide variety of programmers, debuggers and development 
boards.  Many of them work as well or better than the Atmel tools.

You should make two decisions soon.  Maybe three.  Will you want to 
perform on-chip debugging, or will just a programming interface be 
enough?  Do you think your projects will fit in devices with 32 KiB 
of program memory or will you need the larger devices?  Also, how 
much money are you willing to spend.

If you won't need debugging, you have a very wide choice of 
programmers available to you.

If you will need debugging and you wont need devices over 32 KiB, the 
AVR Dragon gives you a lot of bang for the buck.

If you need debugging and you will need devices over 32 KiB but you 
can't spend a lot of money, consider a clone of the Atmel JTAGICE Mk 
I.

If you can spend a bunch of money, you might as well get an Atmel 
JTAGICE Mk II.

Graham.

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by brewski922

For sources there is also SparkFun
www.sparkfun.com

From the way you talk I don't thank you could go wrong with the 
STK500, about $80.

For programming software, in Windows, there is:
AVRStudio free from Atmel
WinAVR (pronounced winever) free from winavr.sourceforge.net
CodeVisionAVR from www.hpinfotech.ro, the demo version is free

After you get familiar programming the AVRs and the STK500 you can 
get some robotic parts and use the STK500 and the controller. Later 
on you can go to a dedicated robotic PC board.

Many folks, including myself, use the STK500 as our backbone 
development system. Oh, we use other things too but that is the 
mainstay. It can do so much, with its 8 Input Switches and 8 Output 
LEDs, a separate RS232 port and it accommodate many different AVR 
chips.

Mike


--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Davies" <Yahoo37849@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Hahn" <everphilski@> 
> wrote:
> 
> > What would you guys recommend
> > as a "starter kit" ...
> 
> I think you should look in the tools section of AVRFreaks, where 
you 
> will find a wide variety of programmers, debuggers and development 
> boards.  Many of them work as well or better than the Atmel tools.
> 
> You should make two decisions soon.  Maybe three.  Will you want 
to 
> perform on-chip debugging, or will just a programming interface be 
> enough?  Do you think your projects will fit in devices with 32 
KiB 
> of program memory or will you need the larger devices?  Also, how 
> much money are you willing to spend.
> 
> If you won't need debugging, you have a very wide choice of 
> programmers available to you.
> 
> If you will need debugging and you wont need devices over 32 KiB, 
the 
> AVR Dragon gives you a lot of bang for the buck.
> 
> If you need debugging and you will need devices over 32 KiB but 
you 
> can't spend a lot of money, consider a clone of the Atmel JTAGICE 
Mk 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I.
> 
> If you can spend a bunch of money, you might as well get an Atmel 
> JTAGICE Mk II.
> 
> Graham.
>

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by bobby cossum

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Hahn" <everphilski@...> wrote:
>
> Good Afternoon,
> 
> I'm looking into digging into AVR's and looking for some advice before
> I spend any money. My goal is to do some robotics control projects,
> preferably programming in C/C++ although I think it would be valuable
> to learn the native instruction set as well. No more than 4 motors and
> 4-10 simple sensors to start, so not an insane amount of I/O or I/O
> processing.

this is probably heresy, but i like the arduino.  it has a stamp-like
api designed for artists for when you're feeling braindead or you can
cowboy up and use avr-gcc.  the thing runs about $35, has a mega168
with bootloader installed and an ftdi usb-serial interface on-board. 
there are various stackable shields available for interfacing zigbee,
ethernet, motors and whatnot.

there are also breadboardable kit versions for between 12.50 and 17.50
that will not hold the shields and do not have the ftdi interface
onboard.  these do have headers for various max232 and ftdi interfaces
to plug in.  adafruit industries will have a breadboardable kit with
the ftdi interface onboard available in about a month.

you can check out tom igoe's book "making things talk" for an idea of
the possibilities using the api.

i also kind of like pololu's baby orangutan.

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-26 by brewski922

In my earlier post in the paragraph replace "and" with "as". Sorry!

After you get familiar programming the AVRs and the STK500 you can 
get some robotic parts and use the STK500 "as" the controller. Later 
on you can go to a dedicated robotic PC board.


> For sources there is also SparkFun
> www.sparkfun.com
> 
> From the way you talk I don't thank you could go wrong with the 
> STK500, about $80.
> 
> For programming software, in Windows, there is:
> AVRStudio free from Atmel
> WinAVR (pronounced winever) free from winavr.sourceforge.net
> CodeVisionAVR from www.hpinfotech.ro, the demo version is free
> 
> After you get familiar programming the AVRs and the STK500 you can 
> get some robotic parts and use the STK500 and the controller. 
Later 
> on you can go to a dedicated robotic PC board.
> 
> Many folks, including myself, use the STK500 as our backbone 
> development system. Oh, we use other things too but that is the 
> mainstay. It can do so much, with its 8 Input Switches and 8 
Output 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> LEDs, a separate RS232 port and it accommodate many different AVR 
> chips.
> 
> Mike

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "brewski922" <Brewskister@...> wrote:

> ... I don't thank [sic] you could go
> wrong with the STK500, about $80.

The OP (who has not answered any of our questions and is leaving us to 
argue among ourselves) wants to get into robotics.  You can't put an 
STK500 on a robot!  The STK500 has no debug capability.  Why would you 
advise him to pay $80 for a huge board with no debug capability when 
for $52 he can get a programmer / debugger that works with all the 
latest chips from Atmel, including debugWIRE?

Graham.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Philip Hahn

Mr Graham and others,

My apologies on the long delayed response. My kids got sick this
weekend, then my wife, and now I have succumbed!

I am planning on getting into **mobile** robotics. Off-topic, but I
have this prototying system called Fischertechnik, which is a neat
system often called "legos for adults" but is really more than that.
It's often used in colleges for industrial prototyping and sometimes
in industry as well. Google can help you if you are interested in
learning more (or ask me :) ). I have motors, sensors, etc. that I've
acquired over the years, and as I've mentioned, I've used other
microcontrollers in the past, but AVR's look very intriguing and it
looks possible to start relatively cheap.

(answering all of you guys at once, this might get long and confusing)

I don't know how much programming space I need, having never targeted
a AVR before! I'd like to program using the gcc toolchain if possible,
and I realize C++ adds overhead. I'll probably learn the native
instruction set (I'm a curious person) but I use C++ day in and day
out (I write simulations) so I like to fall back on what I know. So
I'd imagine with the overhead c++ might add, I may need a bit more
space.

I looked at some of the suggested boards and they look neat. Most of
them however only had 2 motor ports, I'd need at least four. I can
build an H-bridge, etc.

How hard would it be to start from scratch, with just a bare AVR chip?
I'd probably start with a thru-hole part and mount it on a solderless
breadboard for prototyping and go from there. Again, I'm doing this to
experiment, learn and have fun, I don't have a specific timeframe or
goal in mind. It seems like the minimum part count for an AVR is low
enough (voltage regulator, external crystal if desired, plus
programmer... correct me if I'm wrong) to encourage this sort of
experimenting.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but a minimalist "starter kit" could
be had with just a few AVR's, a ISP programmer and some voltage
regulators, correct?

Could someone please contrast the Dragon vs. the STK500? It looks like
the dragon is very minimalist (no cables or sockets) but can do
emulation and 32kb of debugging, whereas the STK500 is more
feature-rich with LED's and breakout board but no debugging
capabilities.

Graham, you mention a $52 programmer/debugger, can you link this? Or
is this the Dragon? I'm aware of the $33 AVRISP programmers (which
just program, don't debug, correct?) but nothing beyond that until you
get to the STK500/Dragon/and some more expensive solutions.

Thanks again guys this is some really good information.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 7:57 PM, Graham Davies <Yahoo37849@ecrostech.com> wrote:
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "brewski922" <Brewskister@...> wrote:
>
>  > ... I don't thank [sic] you could go
>
> > wrong with the STK500, about $80.
>
>  The OP (who has not answered any of our questions and is leaving us to
>  argue among ourselves) wants to get into robotics.  You can't put an
>  STK500 on a robot!  The STK500 has no debug capability.  Why would you
>  advise him to pay $80 for a huge board with no debug capability when
>  for $52 he can get a programmer / debugger that works with all the
>  latest chips from Atmel, including debugWIRE?
>
>
>
>  Graham.
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Mike Bronosky

On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Graham Davies <Yahoo37849@ecrostech.com>
wrote:


> > You can't put an
> > STK500 on a robot!
>



Why can't you? Is there a law, or something, that says it cannot be done?
Please provide us with the link. Sure, you can't use it on a Mini-Sumo Robot
Contest.
Here are those rules:
http://www.botlanta.org/MonthlyContest/sumo/mini-sumo.html

Philip said, "My goal is to do some robotics control projects." Graham, what
would stop him from doing that?

Are you putting me down so you can pitch your Dragon Rider 500? Shame on
you!

I haven't had much dealings with www.sparkfun.com but I do have the:
Dual Motor Gear Box $10.95
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=319
Omni-Directional Metal Caster $5.95
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=320
H-Bridge Motor Driver 1A $2.35
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=315

In the December 2006 issue of Servo Magazine
http://www.servomagazine.com/
a series "Beginner's Robotics on $50 a Month" is started. Wright Hobbies
http://www.wrighthobbies.net/guides/index.htm
is supplying the articles. Unfortunately the series uses BASCOM a basic for
the AVR's.

Question, what kind of robotic controls do you want to get into?

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Tom

Philip Hahn wrote:
>
> Mr Graham and others,
>
> My apologies on the long delayed response. My kids got sick this
> weekend, then my wife, and now I have succumbed!
>
> I am planning on getting into **mobile** robotics. Off-topic, but I
> have this prototying system called Fischertechnik, which is a neat
> system often called "legos for adults" but is really more than that.
> It's often used in colleges for industrial prototyping and sometimes
> in industry as well. Google can help you if you are interested in
> learning more (or ask me :) ). I have motors, sensors, etc. that I've
> acquired over the years, and as I've mentioned, I've used other
> microcontrollers in the past, but AVR's look very intriguing and it
> looks possible to start relatively cheap.
>
> (answering all of you guys at once, this might get long and confusing)
>
> I don't know how much programming space I need, having never targeted
> a AVR before! I'd like to program using the gcc toolchain if possible,
> and I realize C++ adds overhead. I'll probably learn the native
> instruction set (I'm a curious person) but I use C++ day in and day
> out (I write simulations) so I like to fall back on what I know. So
> I'd imagine with the overhead c++ might add, I may need a bit more
> space.
>
> I looked at some of the suggested boards and they look neat. Most of
> them however only had 2 motor ports, I'd need at least four. I can
> build an H-bridge, etc.
>
   Wouldn't be that difficult to use an AVR with 4 PWM channels and add 
your own motor ports.

>
> Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but a minimalist "starter kit" could
> be had with just a few AVR's, a ISP programmer and some voltage
> regulators, correct?
>

    Corrrect, except that you don't need an expensive programmer at that 
level.   You can use a parallel
port (assuming your PC has one), and a 4 wire cable, wired to a piece of 
perfboard, or to pins that can
\be pligged into your solderless breadboard, for programming.  Dead simple.

> Could someone please contrast the Dragon vs. the STK500? It looks like
> the dragon is very minimalist (no cables or sockets) but can do
> emulation and 32kb of debugging, whereas the STK500 is more
> feature-rich with LED's and breakout board but no debugging
> capabilities.
>
   The STK-500 is a development board.   It has numerous sockets, which 
can be used to experiement with any AVR that comesin a DIP package 
(except the new 14 pin DIP packaged parts).  It plrovides on board 
button switches and LEDs for simple experimentation, and breakout 
headers for more complex experiemnts needing off-board circuitry.   It 
is about $80 (US).

  The AVR Dragon has no sockets at all, but is mostly used in a 
generalized way by soldering in a 40 pin ZIF socket, which allows *ANY*  
DIP packaged AVR to be used in the board.  The connections fort the 
programming, debug andf power pons is all taken care of by jumper wires 
between headers (you must provide the jumper wires, and you solder the 
headers into place, as well)   IT will program *ANY* DIP packaged AVR 
processor.   It will suipport JTAG or DebugWire debugging of AVRs so 
equiped, with up to 32 K of program FLASH.   While it is entirely 
possible for a 4 motor robot to require more than 32 K of control code, 
it is going to take you some time to get  to that point.   At which 
point, you may find you need to acquire one of the more expensive JTAG 
ICE II, devices, or a low cost clone of same.  Or,m you may decide to 
separate out control functions, and use multiple processors, in which 
case 32K of control Flash per processor may not be a problem for you.

   The AVR Dragon currently sells for $52, IIRC.


avrFreak

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Roy E. Burrage

Why should he be ashamed of himself?  I didn't take Graham's comments as 
"putting [you] down" nor did it appear he was hawking his stuff, just 
expressing an opinion...which is the reason for this list.

The original poster was looking for advice about a programmer.  Most of 
the responses were for him to get the most bang for his buck, 
programming capabilities with the ability to do debugging and then small 
size since he stated he wanted to do robotics work.  Why would the OP 
want to put a relatively huge board on a robot when he doesn't need to 
do so?  Why would the OP want to spend a lot of money for a board that 
can only talk over a serial port...which most computers no longer have?  
Why would the OP want to invest a great deal of money up front for a 
product that, although a great product still, is on its last 
technological legs and neither supports all of the newer controllers nor 
all of their spiff?

We have a variety of development boards here in the shop, including the 
STK500 and a couple of it's rider boards, but we hardly ever use the 
STK500 any more unless we do something stupid like, um, program the 
fuses incorrectly and have to clear everything out using the high 
voltage programming function.  We won't mention the time I was doing a 
last minute program modification at 0300 and was supposed to do a dog 
and pony show for a customer that same morning at 0900...and blew up 
both of our ISPs because I didn't read the firmware update 
instructions.  That's why we say RTFMC these days...it wasn't much fun 
having to tweak a program in the middle of a plant with a bare board 
flapping in the breeze, even if it did have some "feet" added to it.  
The Atmel rep, DuRant Lewis, was great in that he sent us one of his 
ISPs via overnight freight but that didn't get the immediate, and self 
inflicted, problem solved.

Before you get froggy and try to jump on Graham about hawking his stuff 
you might also check the price of the AVRDRAGON, currently $51.87 (US) 
at Digi-Key.

And since Graham won't hawk his stuff here, I will.  We have several 
levels of quality in our shop...G-S, OK-S, B-S, and Aw-S.  What Ecros 
Technology stuff we've used falls into the G-S category, and the prices 
have not been too terribly bad either.

Take a few deep breaths before taking offense, Mike.  You'll get gray 
headed not doing so.


REB



Mike Bronosky wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:57 PM, Graham Davies <Yahoo37849@ecrostech.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>   
>>> You can't put an
>>> STK500 on a robot!
>>>       
>
>
>
> Why can't you? Is there a law, or something, that says it cannot be done?
> Please provide us with the link. Sure, you can't use it on a Mini-Sumo Robot
> Contest.
> Here are those rules:
> http://www.botlanta.org/MonthlyContest/sumo/mini-sumo.html
>
> Philip said, "My goal is to do some robotics control projects." Graham, what
> would stop him from doing that?
>
> Are you putting me down so you can pitch your Dragon Rider 500? Shame on
> you!
>
>   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by John Samperi

At 06:52 PM 27/02/2008, you wrote:
>  You can use a parallel
>port (assuming your PC has one), and a 4 wire cable, wired to a piece of
>perfboard, or to pins that can
>\be pligged into your solderless breadboard, for programming.  Dead simple.

....which is usually followed by Dead Chip....

Regards

John Samperi

********************************************************
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
Tel. (02) 9674-6495       Fax (02) 9674-8745
Email: john@ampertronics.com.au
Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
*Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
********************************************************

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Graham Davies

--- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Hahn" <everphilski@...> wrote:

> ... a ... "starter kit" could
> be had with just a few AVR's, a
> ISP programmer and some voltage
> regulators, correct?

Sure, if this is the way you want to go.  So, given that this is all 
for fun and that you're on a budget, this is what I'd suggest:  Find an 
inexpensive ISP programmer that will connect to the computer you'll be 
using as a host (i.e. avoid a parallel port programmer if you don't 
have a parallel port, etc.).  Check back here for opinions on your 
choice.  You want to end up with something that someone else can vouch 
for.  (I don't have ISP programmers, so I can't be hawking my stuff 
here.)  If you don't spend much, it won't be painful to upgrade to a 
debugger later on if you decide to.

The next step would be to select your target microcontroller.  If you 
want to program in C++, I think you're right you should get one with as 
much memory as possible.  Unfortunately, most of those are surface 
mount, so to work with a solderless breadboard you'll either have to 
compromise a bit or have someone mount an SMD on an adapter for you.  
(Or, back off from this and get one of the made-up development boards 
that were suggested, such as the MAVRIC.)  From data sheets I have on 
hand, I see that the ATmega664 has 64 KiB of program memory and 4 KiB 
of data SRAM and is available in 40-pin DIP.  It is not supported by 
the AVR Dragon, however.  The ATmega32 is, but has only half the 
memory.  Maybe someone else will come in with suggestions on how much 
memory you will need and what target to choose.  Could you say 
something on whether you think you might want to upgrade to a 
debugger?  I am personally heavily in favor of debuggers and this warps 
my understanding of what other people want.

> Graham, you mention a $52 programmer/debugger ...

The AVR Dragon.  Someone else had already give the price and I'd just 
read the entire thread of posts so I didn't repeat it, but I should 
have done so for clarity.

Graham.

Full disclosure - I don't make the MAVRIC, but there is a link from 
that Web site back to mine.

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Enki

On 27 Feb 2008 at 19:34, John Samperi wrote:

> At 06:52 PM 27/02/2008, you wrote:
> >  You can use a parallel
> >port (assuming your PC has one), and a 4 wire cable, wired to a piece of
> >perfboard, or to pins that can
> >\be pligged into your solderless breadboard, for programming.  Dead simple.
> 
> ....which is usually followed by Dead Chip....
> 
> Regards
> John Samperi
> 

	That's not my experience.
	Some years doing exactly that with no problems.

	Mark

Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Dyan Fassett

You might look into the Dragon Rider 500 for the Dragon ... It has 
many of the features of the stk500 but much smaller. I love mine.
Also have the Mavric I, I purchased the bare board and built up a 3.3v 
version, a very well designed PCB...
Dyan...KV9R

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Philip Hahn

Hey guys,

Thanks again for the feedback. I really want to design something from
the ground up. I've used several canned controller boards before and
I'd like to start with a chip and build my own from there.

Both the STK500 and dragon can be used as ISP programmers correct?

I was aware of the parallel port/serial port "homebrew" programmers
but the impression I was given on various websites is that these were
slow in comparison with the AVRISP or dragon/stk programmers. Or is
that incorrect?

It seems then that a dragon (plus a ZIF socket) and a few DIP chips
would be a good way to get my feet wet.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Philip
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Graham Davies <Yahoo37849@ecrostech.com> wrote:
> --- In AVR-Chat@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Hahn" <everphilski@...> wrote:
>
>  > ... a ... "starter kit" could
>
> > be had with just a few AVR's, a
>  > ISP programmer and some voltage
>  > regulators, correct?
>
>  Sure, if this is the way you want to go.  So, given that this is all
>  for fun and that you're on a budget, this is what I'd suggest:  Find an
>  inexpensive ISP programmer that will connect to the computer you'll be
>  using as a host (i.e. avoid a parallel port programmer if you don't
>  have a parallel port, etc.).  Check back here for opinions on your
>  choice.  You want to end up with something that someone else can vouch
>  for.  (I don't have ISP programmers, so I can't be hawking my stuff
>  here.)  If you don't spend much, it won't be painful to upgrade to a
>  debugger later on if you decide to.
>
>  The next step would be to select your target microcontroller.  If you
>  want to program in C++, I think you're right you should get one with as
>  much memory as possible.  Unfortunately, most of those are surface
>  mount, so to work with a solderless breadboard you'll either have to
>  compromise a bit or have someone mount an SMD on an adapter for you.
>  (Or, back off from this and get one of the made-up development boards
>  that were suggested, such as the MAVRIC.)  From data sheets I have on
>  hand, I see that the ATmega664 has 64 KiB of program memory and 4 KiB
>  of data SRAM and is available in 40-pin DIP.  It is not supported by
>  the AVR Dragon, however.  The ATmega32 is, but has only half the
>  memory.  Maybe someone else will come in with suggestions on how much
>  memory you will need and what target to choose.  Could you say
>  something on whether you think you might want to upgrade to a
>  debugger?  I am personally heavily in favor of debuggers and this warps
>  my understanding of what other people want.
>
>  > Graham, you mention a $52 programmer/debugger ...
>
>  The AVR Dragon.  Someone else had already give the price and I'd just
>  read the entire thread of posts so I didn't repeat it, but I should
>  have done so for clarity.
>
>  Graham.
>
>  Full disclosure - I don't make the MAVRIC, but there is a link from
>  that Web site back to mine.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by BobGardner@aol.com

I was aware of the parallel port/serial port "homebrew" programmers
but the impression I was given on various websites is that these were
slow in comparison with the AVRISP or dragon/stk programmers. Or is
that incorrect?
====================================================
Make a list of your requirements and prioritze them. Is cheap more important 
than fast? Fast gets real important if you are trying to ship 1000 a day.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by John Samperi

At 11:45 PM 27/02/2008, you wrote:
>         That's not my experience.
>         Some years doing exactly that with no problems.

You must be one of the clever ones :-) I wish I had
$1 for every time I hear the clock fuse being messed up
or other ugly thing happening with PP programmers.

Having said that I too did start with a 4 resistor
PP programmer...but being clever did not mess anything up.

This was just to see if I liked AVRs on the cheap.

Once I knew it was real love I got an AVR910 programmer,
for which I also did some small improvements to the firmware.

But soon after it was an AVRISP, now also the Dragon.

Notice that all of the above except for #1 are all supported
by Studio, so there is no messing around, no cryptic fuse bits
to think about and get wrong.

But that's just me, I think the 30 bucks spent on an AVRISP is
money VERY WELL spent.

Regards

John Samperi

********************************************************
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
Tel. (02) 9674-6495       Fax (02) 9674-8745
Email: john@ampertronics.com.au
Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
*Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
********************************************************

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Tom

John Samperi wrote:
>
> At 06:52 PM 27/02/2008, you wrote:
> > You can use a parallel
> >port (assuming your PC has one), and a 4 wire cable, wired to a piece of
> >perfboard, or to pins that can
> >\be pligged into your solderless breadboard, for programming. Dead 
> simple.
>
> ....which is usually followed by Dead Chip....
>
> Regards
>
> John Samperi
>
   With all due respect, John, Horsepuckey!    My first AVR project was 
an AT90S8515 based project involving three separate controllers for 
interactive video kiosks (for the KoolAid Museum) and I must have 
programmed those 8515s a hundred times befoe I got the programs working 
properly.   All done with nothing more thana  length of ribbon cabl;e 
with 4 lines, and a DB25 connector on one endm and db-9 connector ont he 
other end, plugging in to my controllers.   Never lost am 8515.   Thery 
are still in place, still running great 5 years later.

   While expensive programmer hardware can be nice, and offers some 
nice, useful features, the truth is that so long as one is reasonably 
careful, one can get bv dirt cheap with AVRs, without problems.



avrFreak

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by David VanHorn

There are those who tell me that AVR Studio is a reliable debugging
platform too.
I would agree, if allowed to use a different definition of "reliable"..

I used a BA1FB programmer to do my first AVR project, which went from
concept to delivery in six weeks, and never had any issues with it at
all, and then went on to others from there.  NO idea how many times I
reprogrammed, but I would bet >500.   I still have that 8515, date
code "ES" in my parts bin.

Today, I have AVRISPs that studio decides to completely ignore on some
days, but otherwise work, Various Jtag ices that work or don't work
depending on the phase of the moon, and a couple ICE-50's that work if
they feel like it.
All driven from Studio of course...

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by Enki

On 28 Feb 2008 at 8:01, John Samperi wrote:

> Having said that I too did start with a 4 resistor
> PP programmer...but being clever did not mess anything up.
> 

	Well, I never used that resistor programmer. I built a programmer 
using a 74HC244 buffering the parallel port. And it has a separated GND 
wire to avoid static. First connect the GND, then the programmer.
	I also built a parallel programmer (HV) when I worked with ATTiny11. 
It is connected to the PC parallel port too.
	Just two or three chips died for no reasons when prototyping in the 
last decade.

	Mark

Re: [AVR-Chat] Re: newbie looking for advice

2008-02-27 by John Samperi

At 08:23 AM 28/02/2008, you wrote:
>    While expensive programmer hardware can be nice, ....
>one can get bv dirt cheap with AVRs, without problems.

I consider $30 not very expensive and even dirt cheap
for a tool.

Sure you could get away with a gas stove heated soldering
iron, but isn't a temperature controlled, fine tip iron a lot
more professional and less painful? Would you consider
spending money on tools of the trade unecessary?

And, by the way, I hope you have progressed from the 90Sxxxx
AVRs, the new ones have a lot more fuses to get wrong,
as we hear daily on avrfreaks.net, and it is a lot easier
to get wrong with non Studio based programming interfaces.
AVROPSP2 being a possible exception.




Regards

John Samperi

********************************************************
Ampertronics Pty. Ltd.
11 Brokenwood Place Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153 AUSTRALIA
Tel. (02) 9674-6495       Fax (02) 9674-8745
Email: john@ampertronics.com.au
Website  http://www.ampertronics.com.au
*Electronic Design * Custom Products * Contract Assembly
********************************************************

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