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midi noise problem

midi noise problem

2005-02-15 by Christopher Lieggi

Greetings CZ/VZers

I've been a lurker on this group for a while now, and
a CZ user for a _long_ time (I got my cz-101 new,
almost 20 years ago. I now own a CZ-1, VZ-1, and am
the former owner of a VZ-10m, and an FZ-10m (both
stolen from me) :(

Here's a problem I've had with my cz-1 for as long as
I've had the ear to hear it (since about '92 I'd
guess) 

midi data, coming out of my cz, makes clicking noises
on all the audio outputs, click-click every time I hit
a key (key down, key up) cliiiiiiiiiiiiiik when I use
aftertouch, the mod wheel, or the pitch bend wheel. I
haven't noticed this problem on my 101 or my VZ, only
on my cz-1... usually it doesn't bother me too much,
it's pretty quiet relative to the sounds I'm playing
typically, and if I'm playing live, I can turn midi
off and the problem disappears with it. 

has anyone else here experienced this problem?

Thanks.

Chris

Re: [CZsynth] midi noise problem

2005-02-15 by matucana

Hi Christopher,

> midi data, coming out of my cz, makes clicking noises
> on all the audio outputs, click-click every time I hit
> a key (key down, key up) cliiiiiiiiiiiiiik when I use
> aftertouch, the mod wheel, or the pitch bend wheel.

yes, both my two cz-1 do that too. a workaround is, of course, to use
another keyboard as master keyboard. to me, it does not matter very much, as
I record all midi to the computer first. only when I got everything right, I
record audio, and then the CZ only receives data... I need my hands to
fiddle with the mixer knobs then :-)

Hellmuth

Re: midi noise problem

2005-02-16 by Chris Strellis

Hi Chris,

> has anyone else here experienced this problem?

I've had this problem with my FZ-1 and I've currently got it with my 
Roland JX-10.  My JX-10 is a US model used in the UK with a step down 
transformer - there's no earth connection - a UK requirement!

I believe it may be an Earthing problem.  The keyboard gets one Earth 
from the audio connection and another from the MIDI connection - 
causing a loop.

A change of MIDI lead from your CZ out *may* fix it.  You see there 
are two ways that MIDI cables are made:

http://www.hilmanindustries.com/pinouts/midi.htm

Note that only two pins are used.

http://www.mycableshop.com/techarticles/MidiCablePinout.htm

Here a third pin is used to connect the screens together.  This is 
initially a good idea as it screens interference out from the cable.  
However common mode rejection (on MIDI input chip) would sort this 
out at the receiving end so it's not necessary.  This may induce 
Earth loops and currents i.e clicks everytime the MIDI transmits.

You want to find a 2 pin MIDI cable or disconnect the connection on 
Pin 2.

It's safe to do this as MIDI is opto-isolated by design and 
specification - so that Earth loops are not made!

I'm going to try this tonight so I can't say if this will definately 
fix it for you.

Best regards

Chris

Re: midi noise problem

2018-08-21 by xdumortier@...

I notice your post is over a decade old, but I have the exact same problem with my CZ-1.

For each midi change that happens on my CZ-1, I can hear a tiny click. Moving the mod wheel or doing aftertouch gives very fast clicks. Sequencing the CZ-1 also gives a click for each midi change.
When I turn off the midi by pressing the red midi button, I don't hear the clicks anymore and the sound is perfect. But of course, this means I can't sequence my CZ-1 without hearing the clicks.

Anyone else has experienced this and knows how to fix this?

Thanks,

Xavier

Re: midi noise problem

2018-08-22 by smw-mail@...

Decades ago I had what I called the zipper effect--rapid clicks that reminded me of a zipper opening/closing when using the wheels. I rarely use my CZ, so I don't know if I still have it. However, I seem to remember it might have been tied in with my PC/sound card.

Do you have your CZ connected to a computer? If so, do you get the noise when the PC is not on and the CV is not connected to it? Also, if the CZ is connected to other gear, do you get the sound when the other gear is off and not connected?

Steve


Re: [CZsynth] midi noise problem

2018-08-22 by danforcz

Years ago I had also similar problem with some instruments, forgot which it was…

Later i have found it had something to do with ground loops, or lack of grounding, something like that.

If I remember well, it was solved by changing some cables, or changing mixer, or so. 

After moving to Japan where power sockets have no earthing pin, I had to make a grounding rod for all my 220 Volt gear (I use few huge transformers to convert Japanese 100 Volts to European 220 Volts, because I couldn’t change voltage in many instruments) and all problems of this kind disappeared.

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Aug 22, 2018, at 21:45, smw-mail@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Decades ago I had what I called the zipper effect--rapid clicks that reminded me of a zipper opening/closing when using the wheels. I rarely use my CZ, so I don't know if I still have it. However, I seem to remember it might have been tied in with my PC/sound card.
> 
> Do you have your CZ connected to a computer?  If so, do you get the noise when the PC is not on and the CV is not connected to it? Also, if the CZ is connected to other gear, do you get the sound when the other gear is off and not connected?
> 
> Steve
>

Re: [CZsynth] midi noise problem [AKA zippering effect]

2018-08-22 by smw-mail@...

Daniel, Your experiences with the zippering noise sounds familiar. It might be that I got rid of the noise by changing cables or other gear. You jogged a memory: I know early on I had the midi i/o connected to the PC with a joystick/midi interface cable. At the time I probably would have used the on-board sound chip and maybe a PCI audio card (with joystick port). Later on I used a parallel port midi interface (MOTU midi express). Since that was decades ago, I can't say what I was using and what cables i/o ports I changed that helped with the zippering effect. Thanks for jogging the memory; I include it here in case it helps someone else.

BTW, the issue with the CZ-1 was brought up before, although there is no report of a solution here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/CZsynth/conversations/topics/1648

Steve

Re: [CZsynth] Re: midi noise problem

2018-08-22 by Lee

I get a similar thing on an FB01 unit when I pitch bend: I maybe wrong,but I think it is on the output of the pc midi system. I've never checked whether it did it under direct control. Perhaps it is the pc card.

Sent from my iPhone
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 22 Aug 2018, at 13:45, "smw-mail@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> Decades ago I had what I called the zipper effect--rapid clicks that reminded me of a zipper opening/closing when using the wheels. I rarely use my CZ, so I don't know if I still have it. However, I seem to remember it might have been tied in with my PC/sound card.
> 
> Do you have your CZ connected to a computer?  If so, do you get the noise when the PC is not on and the CV is not connected to it? Also, if the CZ is connected to other gear, do you get the sound when the other gear is off and not connected?
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
>

Re: midi noise problem

2018-08-22 by xdumortier@...

It's not caused by other equipment, as I use the CZ-1 standalone and still get the clicking noises (zipper effect).
I guess I'll have to open my CZ-1 and check if I see any bad capacitors.

Re: midi noise problem

2018-12-20 by xdumortier@...

I did some more research while I was fixing some of the keys.

The midi noise/zipper sound is as loud as the synth sound when chorus is at maximum. When I lower the volume, the noise/zipper sound gets quieter (but of course the synth sound also gets quieter).
The midi noise/zipper sound is very quiet when the chorus is at minimum, at ANY volume. But it's still there.

Pulling out connectors:
When I pull the left connector "C E" from the motherboard, then the synth sound is gone, but I still hear the noise/zipper sound at full volume when pressing keys ore moving the wheels. Even with the chorus slider at minimum. The noise goes down in volume when I lower the volume slider.
The noise is still there when I disconnect both connectors "C E" and "C K". Also when I disconnect the led's and the buttons from the motherboard.
When I pull connector "C I" from the motherboard, I get no midi noise/zipper sound, but the screen shows a MIDI error, so I guess there is no midi noise because MIDI is not active.

Changing settings:
The tone of the noise/zipper sound changes slightly when I change the KBCH (keyboard midi channel).
The noise disappears when I use the MIDI ON/OFF button to turn off midi (but I need the midi to sequence).

Connected cables:
I can hear it through the headphones jack and through the L / R jacks.
The noise/zipper sound can be heard both when MIDI jacks are unplugged and when MIDI is plugged while sending MIDI data from the computer to the CZ-1.

It's pretty clear MIDI has something to do with this noise. Midi is sent and received correctly, but it seems like the midi data is going through the sound path.

I see no bulging capacitors and everything looks clean inside. There is no corrosion or battery leakage.
What component could be causing this?




RE: [CZsynth] Re: midi noise problem

2018-12-20 by Paul

When the relay fails over time and they always do, the chorus slider and circuit become big noise makers and signal killers. I don’t know if that’s what is happening to you, just tossing that idea out there. There are also documented issues with MIDI noise on CZs.
  Paul T 
CZ-1
CZ-5000
CZ-3000
CZ-101
HT-6000
VZ10m 
FZ20m
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: xdumortier@... [CZsynth]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:15 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CZsynth] Re: midi noise problem



I did some more research while I was fixing some of the keys.

The midi noise/zipper sound is as loud as the synth sound when chorus is at maximum. When I lower the volume, the noise/zipper sound gets quieter (but of course the synth sound also gets quieter).
The midi noise/zipper sound is very quiet when the chorus is at minimum, at ANY volume. But it's still there.

Pulling out connectors:
When I pull the left connector "C E" from the motherboard, then the synth sound is gone, but I still hear the noise/zipper sound at full volume when pressing keys ore moving the wheels. Even with the chorus slider at minimum. The noise goes down in volume when I lower the volume slider.
The noise is still there when I disconnect both connectors "C E" and "C K". Also when I disconnect the led's and the buttons from the motherboard.
When I pull connector "C I" from the motherboard, I get no midi noise/zipper sound, but the screen shows a MIDI error, so I guess there is no midi noise because MIDI is not active.

Changing settings:
The tone of the noise/zipper sound changes slightly when I change the KBCH (keyboard midi channel).
The noise disappears when I use the MIDI ON/OFF button to turn off midi (but I need the midi to sequence).

Connected cables:
I can hear it through the headphones jack and through the L / R jacks.
The noise/zipper sound can be heard both when MIDI jacks are unplugged and when MIDI is plugged while sending MIDI data from the computer to the CZ-1.

It's pretty clear MIDI has something to do with this noise. Midi is sent and received correctly, but it seems like the midi data is going through the sound path.

I see no bulging capacitors and everything looks clean inside. There is no corrosion or battery leakage.
What component could be causing this?











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [CZsynth] Re: midi noise problem

2018-12-20 by Jacob Vosmaer

Could it be a grounding issue? Try unplugging MIDI and audio cables on the CZ until the noise goes away, using your headphones to monitor the sound.

What does it take for the noise to go away?

Often it's something about the combination of MIDI + audio + computer + USB that causes problems. Audio and USB connected to a computer usually share ground.

Jacob
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On 20 Dec 2018, at 18:08, Paul paul.krull@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> When the relay fails over time and they always do, the chorus slider and circuit become big noise makers and signal killers. I don’t know if that’s what is happening to you, just tossing that idea out there. There are also documented issues with MIDI noise on CZs.
> Paul T
> CZ-1
> CZ-5000
> CZ-3000
> CZ-101
> HT-6000
> VZ10m
> FZ20m
>
> From: xdumortier@... <mailto:xdumortier@...> [CZsynth]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 8:15 AM
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [CZsynth] Re: midi noise problem
>
> I did some more research while I was fixing some of the keys.
>
> The midi noise/zipper sound is as loud as the synth sound when chorus is at maximum. When I lower the volume, the noise/zipper sound gets quieter (but of course the synth sound also gets quieter).
> The midi noise/zipper sound is very quiet when the chorus is at minimum, at ANY volume. But it's still there.
>
> Pulling out connectors:
> When I pull the left connector "C E" from the motherboard, then the synth sound is gone, but I still hear the noise/zipper sound at full volume when pressing keys ore moving the wheels. Even with the chorus slider at minimum. The noise goes down in volume when I lower the volume slider.
> The noise is still there when I disconnect both connectors "C E" and "C K". Also when I disconnect the led's and the buttons from the motherboard.
> When I pull connector "C I" from the motherboard, I get no midi noise/zipper sound, but the screen shows a MIDI error, so I guess there is no midi noise because MIDI is not active.
>
> Changing settings:
> The tone of the noise/zipper sound changes slightly when I change the KBCH (keyboard midi channel).
> The noise disappears when I use the MIDI ON/OFF button to turn off midi (but I need the midi to sequence).
>
> Connected cables:
> I can hear it through the headphones jack and through the L / R jacks.
> The noise/zipper sound can be heard both when MIDI jacks are unplugged and when MIDI is plugged while sending MIDI data from the computer to the CZ-1.
>
> It's pretty clear MIDI has something to do with this noise. Midi is sent and received correctly, but it seems like the midi data is going through the sound path.
>
> I see no bulging capacitors and everything looks clean inside. There is no corrosion or battery leakage.
> What component could be causing this?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Re: midi noise problem

2018-12-21 by smw-mail@...

> I did some more research while I was fixing some of the keys.

First of all, you have done some excellent detective work trying to isolate the cause of the problem.

Second, I am not a DIYer and have almost no experience with diagnosing and/or repairing issues with electronic circuits.

Third, that being said, you reminded me of the zipper effect I had when I used my CZ, probably the CZ-5000, though it could have been a CZ-3000 or a CZ-1. I don't remember if it went away on its own or if it went away when I rearranged my gear, my midi routing/connections, or my audio connections.

It was most noticeable when I scrolled either one or both of the wheels (I don't remember which as it was decades ago).

I remembered this when you mentioned at the end that it seems clearly to be related to midi data.

For all I know, it could still exist on my CZ-5000, or maybe I discovered it went away after not being used for months/years.

I know its not much, but maybe it will help with further isolation of the conditions that contribute to the zipper effect.

Steve


Re: Re: [CZsynth] midi noise problem

2018-12-28 by danforcz

In the past I had this problem with some instruments. If I remember well, it was caused by some ground loop somewhere. I don’t remember how I solved it, it’s so many years ago… Probably by desoldering ground wire in some connectors on audio cables, just on one side… Probably it didn’t repair the real reason, but it stopped the zipper noise in audio signal.

Maybe it is confirmed by your finding that unplugging MIDI cables didn’t improve it. It has nothing to do with MIDI signal - this is too high frequency to be heard, and it goes different way than audio signal. The problem is inside the instrument.

Try to modify few audio cables and tell us if it helped.

And generally - check all connections in your studio if there’s ground loop somewhere.

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Dec 21, 2018, at 1:13, xdumortier@... <mailto:xdumortier@hotmail.com> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I did some more research while I was fixing some of the keys.
> 
> The midi noise/zipper sound is as loud as the synth sound when chorus is at maximum. When I lower the volume, the noise/zipper sound gets quieter (but of course the synth sound also gets quieter).
> The midi noise/zipper sound is very quiet when the chorus is at minimum, at ANY volume. But it's still there.
> 
> Pulling out connectors:
> When I pull the left connector "C E" from the motherboard, then the synth sound is gone, but I still hear the noise/zipper sound at full volume when pressing keys ore moving the wheels. Even with the chorus slider at minimum. The noise goes down in volume when I lower the volume slider.
> The noise is still there when I disconnect both connectors "C E" and "C K". Also when I disconnect the led's and the buttons from the motherboard.
> When I pull connector "C I" from the motherboard, I get no midi noise/zipper sound, but the screen shows a MIDI error, so I guess there is no midi noise because MIDI is not active.
> 
> Changing settings:
> The tone of the noise/zipper sound changes slightly when I change the KBCH (keyboard midi channel).
> The noise disappears when I use the MIDI ON/OFF button to turn off midi (but I need the midi to sequence).
> 
> Connected cables:
> I can hear it through the headphones jack and through the L / R jacks.
> The noise/zipper sound can be heard both when MIDI jacks are unplugged and when MIDI is plugged while sending MIDI data from the computer to the CZ-1.
> 
> It's pretty clear MIDI has something to do with this noise. Midi is sent and received correctly, but it seems like the midi data is going through the sound path.
> 
> I see no bulging capacitors and everything looks clean inside. There is no corrosion or battery leakage.
> What component could be causing this?

Re: midi noise problem

2019-02-27 by xdumortier@...

It's from both the midi coming in AND the midi generated by the CZ-1 itself.
So even if no midi cables are connected I can hear the noise. When I press the MIDI ON/OFF button to turn off the midi, I can't hear the noise anymore.
I'll try to look into it again this weekend.

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