Casio CZ/ VZ/ FZ - Pro Series

i don't think so
to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer the dx-7
so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the fight was on

correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?

charles


----- Original Message -----
From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio


> It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth methods are
both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD). Is it
possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty something years
later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but why don't
they both get along?

>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Yamaha wasn't even remotely the first manufacturer of digital 
synths... ;)

Ok, the Synclavier (late 70s) had analog filters, but other than that 
it was an FM- and Additive-Synthesis Synth...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmxbpoIIDoM

The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built 1978...

http://www.synthesizerdatabase.com/ppg/Wavecomputer360.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv824njQe8w

Still, it was the first wavetable synth but probably not the first 
digital synth...


On 28 Sep 2010 at 14:46, charlie midi gfa wrote:

> i don't think so
> to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer the
> dx-7
> so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the fight
> was on
> 
> correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?
> 
> charles
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
> To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
> Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio
> 
> 
> > It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth methods
> are
> both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD). Is
> it
> possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty something
> years
> later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but why
> don't
> they both get along?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
synthesis/

http://www.summasounds.de/

I got this from a web site and I was reading: Unfortunately YAMAHA sued CASIO, stating that PD violated their patent of FM synthesis. YAMAHA won at last. 
CASIO retreated from the synthesizer market. CTK-1000 was released soon after that. In contrast to CZ and VZ, this time CASIO carefully avoided to disclose what IXA's Nonlinear means. 

So what are your thoughts to this?



--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@...> wrote:

>
> Yamaha wasn't even remotely the first manufacturer of digital 
> synths... ;)
> 
> Ok, the Synclavier (late 70s) had analog filters, but other than that 
> it was an FM- and Additive-Synthesis Synth...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmxbpoIIDoM
> 
> The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built 1978...
> 
> http://www.synthesizerdatabase.com/ppg/Wavecomputer360.html
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv824njQe8w
> 
> Still, it was the first wavetable synth but probably not the first 
> digital synth...
> 
> 
> On 28 Sep 2010 at 14:46, charlie midi gfa wrote:
> 
> > i don't think so
> > to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer the
> > dx-7
> > so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the fight
> > was on
> > 
> > correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?
> > 
> > charles
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
> > To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
> > Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio
> > 
> > 
> > > It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth methods
> > are
> > both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD). Is
> > it
> > possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty something
> > years
> > later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but why
> > don't
> > they both get along?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
> FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
> FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
> Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
> FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
> synthesis/
> 
> http://www.summasounds.de/
>

Hi

they are indeed similar, reading out a sine table and vary readout 
speed to stretch or clinch the resulting waveform. I had a look at 
the patents Yamaha held on this technique....
What Yamaha calls FM originaly is Phase Modulation, the difference 
between FM and PM is, that FM is influencing the read out speed of 
this table steadily and Phase Modulation does this only as long as 
the modulating waveforms is changing.  
As far as I know, when it comes to the CZ, Casio is using those 
readouts to create Waveshapers instead of Oscillators, it's possible 
to do similar things with newer FM-Synth by tuning fixed oscillators 
down to 0Hz...
When it comes to iPD, I created a little (unfinished) conversion 
tutorial that explains how to convert sounds between DX and VZ 
Synths, you should find it in the files section of this group.

...Summa

On 28 Sep 2010 at 12:31, cliffe123 wrote:

> It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth methods
> are both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD).
> Is it possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty
> something years later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each
> other but why don't they both get along?
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
synthesis/

http://www.summasounds.de/

are you certain?? yamaha not first digital keyboard?
 from what i heard ,, well seen  the dx was first in production to use the
digital chips or a digital processor to make
sound
the others used all analog circuitry

maybe not , youtube and wiki is a tell tale for a life span of lies

i just looked up before posting ,, dx 7 was first comercially succesfull
digital synthesizer ,,,,sorry!!!!

charles

I'm sure, since every chip can be rebuilt with discrete components, 
even so this would be rather cumbersome when it comes to actual CPUs 
;) combining them on a chip/processor isn't exactly an requirement 
for digital circuitry since digital is defined by the way the signals 
are processed not by size or design of the processing components.

On 28 Sep 2010 at 18:26, charlie midi gfa wrote:

> are you certain?? yamaha not first digital keyboard?
>  from what i heard ,, well seen  the dx was first in production to
> use the
> digital chips or a digital processor to make
> sound
> the others used all analog circuitry
> 
> maybe not , youtube and wiki is a tell tale for a life span of
> lies
> 
> i just looked up before posting ,, dx 7 was first comercially
> succesfull
> digital synthesizer ,,,,sorry!!!!
> 
> charles
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
synthesis/

http://www.summasounds.de/

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, charlie midi gfa <charles.copp@...> wrote:

>> i just looked up before posting 

Well that's a first!  You'll graduate from troll to noob one of these days if you keep up that kind of dilligence!

Well I guess maybe the law suit was indeed exaggerated. Anyone, feel free to correct me if im wrong.


--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@...> wrote:

>
> Yamaha wasn't even remotely the first manufacturer of digital 
> synths... ;)
> 
> Ok, the Synclavier (late 70s) had analog filters, but other than that 
> it was an FM- and Additive-Synthesis Synth...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmxbpoIIDoM
> 
> The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built 1978...
> 
> http://www.synthesizerdatabase.com/ppg/Wavecomputer360.html
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv824njQe8w
> 
> Still, it was the first wavetable synth but probably not the first 
> digital synth...
> 
> 
> On 28 Sep 2010 at 14:46, charlie midi gfa wrote:
> 
> > i don't think so
> > to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer the
> > dx-7
> > so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the fight
> > was on
> > 
> > correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?
> > 
> > charles
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
> > To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
> > Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio
> > 
> > 
> > > It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth methods
> > are
> > both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD). Is
> > it
> > possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty something
> > years
> > later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but why
> > don't
> > they both get along?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
> FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
> FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
> Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
> FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
> synthesis/
> 
> http://www.summasounds.de/
>

Well, in times of software patents quite some patent based lawsuits 
look at least a bit strange ;) It all started in the 80s with things 
like the Apple vs. Digital Research lawsuit...

On 2 Oct 2010 at 0:55, cliffe123 wrote:

> Well I guess maybe the law suit was indeed exaggerated. Anyone, feel
> free to correct me if im wrong.
> 
> 
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yamaha wasn't even remotely the first manufacturer of digital 
> > synths... ;)
> > 
> > Ok, the Synclavier (late 70s) had analog filters, but other than
> that 
> > it was an FM- and Additive-Synthesis Synth...
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmxbpoIIDoM
> > 
> > The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built
> 1978...
> > 
> > http://www.synthesizerdatabase.com/ppg/Wavecomputer360.html
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv824njQe8w
> > 
> > Still, it was the first wavetable synth but probably not the first
> > digital synth...
> > 
> > 
> > On 28 Sep 2010 at 14:46, charlie midi gfa wrote:
> > 
> > > i don't think so
> > > to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer
> the
> > > dx-7
> > > so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the
> fight
> > > was on
> > > 
> > > correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?
> > > 
> > > charles
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
> > > To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
> > > Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth
> methods
> > > are
> > > both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD).
> Is
> > > it
> > > possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty
> something
> > > years
> > > later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but
> why
> > > don't
> > > they both get along?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ------------------------------------
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
> > FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
> > FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
> > Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
> > FM-Synthesis	mailing list         :
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
> > synthesis/
> > 
> > http://www.summasounds.de/
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 

CZ/VZ 		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
FMHeaven	mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
FS1R		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/	
Vokator		mailing list	: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
FM-Synthesis	mailing list         : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
synthesis/

http://www.summasounds.de/

Did you know that have been several lawsuits involving Apple Computer vs Apple Corps (i.e. the surviving Beatles)? I think that they agreed in 1981 that Apple Computer would stay out of the music business and that Apple Corps would stay out of the computer business, and in 1991 that Apple Computer would not sell physical media containing music. In 2006 there was an unsuccessful attempt by Apple Corps to prevent Apple Computer from using the Apple logo on its iTunes site.. Whichever way, Apple Computer seems to have done better overall...

Simon

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Summa 
  To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 6:08 AM
  Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Re: yamaha and casio


    
  Well, in times of software patents quite some patent based lawsuits 
  look at least a bit strange ;) It all started in the 80s with things 
  like the Apple vs. Digital Research lawsuit...

  On 2 Oct 2010 at 0:55, cliffe123 wrote:

  > Well I guess maybe the law suit was indeed exaggerated. Anyone, feel
  > free to correct me if im wrong.
  > 
  > 
  > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "Summa" <flotorian@...> wrote:
  > >
  > > Yamaha wasn't even remotely the first manufacturer of digital 
  > > synths... ;)
  > > 
  > > Ok, the Synclavier (late 70s) had analog filters, but other than
  > that 
  > > it was an FM- and Additive-Synthesis Synth...
  > > 
  > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmxbpoIIDoM
  > > 
  > > The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built
  > 1978...
  > > 
  > > http://www.synthesizerdatabase.com/ppg/Wavecomputer360.html
  > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv824njQe8w
  > > 
  > > Still, it was the first wavetable synth but probably not the first
  > > digital synth...
  > > 
  > > 
  > > On 28 Sep 2010 at 14:46, charlie midi gfa wrote:
  > > 
  > > > i don't think so
  > > > to my understanding yamaha had the first digital synthesizer
  > the
  > > > dx-7
  > > > so when casio must have said i have a digitial synthesizer the
  > fight
  > > > was on
  > > > 
  > > > correct me but what exactily is the law suit over?
  > > > 
  > > > charles
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > > From: "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...>
  > > > To: <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
  > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 5:31 AM
  > > > Subject: [CZsynth] yamaha and casio
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > > It said that yamaha started to sue casio because the synth
  > methods
  > > > are
  > > > both simular. IMO they are both rather different (FM and iPD).
  > Is
  > > > it
  > > > possibly casio can reappeal and counter-sue yamaha twenty
  > something
  > > > years
  > > > later if they wanted too? I know they both hate each other but
  > why
  > > > don't
  > > > they both get along?
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > > ------------------------------------
  > > > >
  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > ------------------------------------
  > > > 
  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > -- 
  > > 
  > > CZ/VZ mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
  > > FMHeaven mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
  > > FS1R mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/ 
  > > Vokator mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
  > > FM-Synthesis mailing list :
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
  > > synthesis/
  > > 
  > > http://www.summasounds.de/
  > >
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ------------------------------------
  > 
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 

  -- 

  CZ/VZ mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth
  FMHeaven mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fmheaven/
  FS1R mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fs1r/ 
  Vokator mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vokator
  FM-Synthesis mailing list : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fm-
  synthesis/

  http://www.summasounds.de/



  


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i read some where that roland too has a lawsuit involving casio
they are all competitors i assume...looks good on paper
not for note worthy-ness. i don't wanna see any good product seize in
development.

charles

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "cliffe123" <cliffe123@...> wrote:
>
> Well I guess maybe the law suit was indeed exaggerated. Anyone, feel free to correct me if im wrong.
> 
> > > The PPG Wavecomputer 360 was pure digital (no filters), built 1978...
> >

What you seem to be failing to realize is that FM is just a particular method of digital synthesis that Yamaha bought the patent to from MIT.  An FM synth must be a digital synth, but a digital synth does not have to be an FM synth.  Prior to Yamaha buying the FM patent from MIT, MIT had been liscensing it to several manufacturs, including Synclavier.  But PCM digital synthesis (sampling/rompling) existed long before MIT came up with FM.  I'm sure labs were crudely recording and playing back sound digitally since before the transistor was invented.  By the 1960s there was sampling software for the PDP-1 minicomputer and there are albums made with the PDP-1 by experimental musicians in the 60s.  But because both ROM and RAM was cost-prohibitive until the 1980s, Yamaha developed FM rather than PCM synthesis. Think of FM as being a way to do digital synthesis without the memory required for sampling.  The DX-7 was "the first commercially successful digital synthesizer", appearing in 1983, but it was not Yamaha's first FM synthesizer.  That was the GS-1, released in 1981.  It was a preset machine with no programming capabilities.