Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Hi all,

I've been reading this group for a few months, got my DTXpress III
just under 2 weeks ago, and I design electronics for a living, so I
have designed and built the "Magic Box" I've heard about.  It is more
of a bird's nest and needs a bit of tweaking, but it works.

It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each input
and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is really
a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the other
pad and get another! It needs a tweak because I have made the
detection of the pad which drives the rim switch too sensitive so that
while it works fine off the rack, hitting the non-rim pad on the rack
triggers the rim sound on all but the gentlest of touches.  I will
just need to change a resistor, but it probably needs an adjustable
one becuase you would need the equivalent of a rejection adjustment,
but you cannot do it in the DTX box becuase it is too late by then.

Must go, drum practice time, then I am going out.

I will post more information when I have adjusted it and had time to
try it out a little more.

Keith.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've been reading this group for a few months, got my DTXpress III
> just under 2 weeks ago, and I design electronics for a living, so I
> have designed and built the "Magic Box" I've heard about.  It is 
more
> of a bird's nest and needs a bit of tweaking, but it works.
> 
> It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each input
> and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is 
really
> a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the 
other
> pad and get another! It needs a tweak because I have made the
> detection of the pad which drives the rim switch too sensitive so 
that
> while it works fine off the rack, hitting the non-rim pad on the 
rack
> triggers the rim sound on all but the gentlest of touches.  I will
> just need to change a resistor, but it probably needs an adjustable
> one becuase you would need the equivalent of a rejection adjustment,
> but you cannot do it in the DTX box becuase it is too late by then.
> 
> Must go, drum practice time, then I am going out.
> 
> I will post more information when I have adjusted it and had time to
> try it out a little more.

Hooray, Keith. Nice work. Eager to hear the details and the plans. 
Any idea what you intend to do with it?

Ed

> 
> Hooray, Keith. Nice work. Eager to hear the details and the plans. 
> Any idea what you intend to do with it?
> 
> Ed

Well, I don't need one yet - I only started drumming at the beginning
of the year and I still don't hit half the pads I have (at least not
at the right time).  However, I had thought that if there was some
demand I would make a nice boxed one with 11 inputs, three driving one
triple zone input, the other 8 driving 4 dual zones.  This would allow
the three toms and the kick to double up as whatever you want and the
cymbal to add a couple of extra sounds, still leaving inputs 9 and 10
free.

I had thought of just a simple box with 2 in and one out (like I have
just made) but then if you wanted four of them it would get a bit
messy.  I thought if 11 inputs could be crammed into a box the same
size as the DTX module it would be good.

I thought I would treat it as a business venture.  While I won't get
rich, at least I could make a bit of money for my time getting it into
production.  There will be quite a bit to do to make it a decent
product (PCB layout, cases to make etc) but even if there were only a
couple of dozen people who wanted one it would be worth it.

I may look at battery operation, but a 12V DC input like the DTX is
probably a sensible option.  

One snag is that I am in the UK and the big market is probably in the
USA.  Shipping is expensive and with the dollar being weak it may not
seem a bargain compared to buying a new DTX module over there.  Over
here a DTX module costs around 300 GBP.  In the USA they cost $440(?).
 If I made a box for half the price of a DTX module, say 150 GBP, by
the time I had paid 33 GBP to ship it to the USA (depending on weight)
it would end up at around $330 at current exchange rates.  I guess
there would be no sales tax on the export so that would save 17.5% and
bring it down to around $290, and if I shipped a few at a time it
would save something.  It needs a bit of thought and I need to cost
out what the bits would cost, when I know what people want.  I guess I
could let someone in the USA build it under license, but it hardly
seems worth it for small volumes, and is not as much fun.

Any suggestions as to what people want would be appreaciated (how many
inputs, dual or triple input, power supply or battery, metal or
plastic case, adjustments?).  One limitation is obviously that you
cannot play both sounds simultaneously, but if they are used for
"peripheral" sounds like cymbal, triangle, cow bells, chimes, gong,
woodblock, etc, that should not be too much of a problem.

Got to go, stomach's rumbling and I should be elsewhere.

Keith.

Sounds really cool, was wondering if it would work with previous 
versions of the dtxpress module? I have a dtxpress2, and expanding 
the kit is always on my mind this sounds like the thing to do it! 
Also, just a suggestion, if you could work it out to bring the price 
down to 100, 150 us, i bet you would sell a ton, at the current 
estimated rate, it would be easier to buy a second module, in the 
u.s. or canada. I would pitch (then sell $$$)  the idea to yamaha, 
they might love it and  may add it as an accessorie for the dtx 
line.......Good luck!             KEEP ON JAMMIN'! ........JAYMZ.

Especially, since a new Dtxpress III module is going for $346US.
 
OGD

   _____  

From: JAYMZ  
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 4:47 PM
To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DTXpress] Re: The Magic Box exists!


Sounds really cool, was wondering if it would work with previous 
versions of the dtxpress module? I have a dtxpress2, and expanding 
the kit is always on my mind this sounds like the thing to do it! 
Also, just a suggestion, if you could work it out to bring the price 
down to 100, 150 us, i bet you would sell a ton, at the current 
estimated rate, it would be easier to buy a second module, in the 
u.s. or canada. I would pitch (then sell $$$)  the idea to yamaha, 
they might love it and  may add it as an accessorie for the dtx 
line.......Good luck!             KEEP ON JAMMIN'! ........JAYMZ.



 
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> Especially, since a new Dtxpress III module is going for $346US.
> 

I am doing some work to find out what price it could be made/sold for.
 My hope is that it could be sold for $99 (giving 6 extra inputs). 
The problem is you guys in the USA get things so cheaply and your
currency is so weak.  We pay 300 GPB for a module!

Any feedback is greatly appreciated eg price, features, number of
channels, whether people would rather just have a simple 2 inputs, one
output box etc.

Keith.

Keith, 
 
Between you and Peter (the_kin_doc) we are getting to be way to spoiled with
all of your excellent work. 
 
From my point of view, leaving the three zones inputs 2,6,7 alone for three
zone pads like the TP65S and the PCY150 would seem to make sense. That would
still leave stereo inputs 1,3,4,5 that could be broken out to serve eight
pads, instead of four. Thus adding four inputs. So that from the base kit
with the addition of a $99 The Holy-Grail Rim-trigger Expander Module you
could add up to 6 additional pads (1,3,4,5,9/10).
 
OGD 

   _____  

From: Keith  
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 5:06 PM
To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DTXpress] Re: The Magic Box exists!


--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> Especially, since a new Dtxpress III module is going for $346US.
> 

I am doing some work to find out what price it could be made/sold for.
My hope is that it could be sold for $99 (giving 6 extra inputs). 
The problem is you guys in the USA get things so cheaply and your
currency is so weak.  We pay 300 GPB for a module!

Any feedback is greatly appreciated eg price, features, number of
channels, whether people would rather just have a simple 2 inputs, one
output box etc.

Keith.


 
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of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
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strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
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--- OGD wrote:
> ... leaving the three zones inputs 2,6,7 alone for three
> zone pads ... would still leave stereo inputs 1,3,4,5 ...
> to serve eight pads, instead of four.

I'm with Rob - eight mono inputs to four stereo outputs to support 
the splitting of 1 and 3-5. The only addition I would suggest would 
be another two mono to one stereo splitter for 9/10, which causes 
endless angst about the correct kind of insert cable to buy for most 
people.

You have a willing beta tester here in the UK, Keith. Drop me an 
email. I can't believe my "magic box" finally exists! How exciting!

Stewart

First off, Very nice work! If it were me, I'd a little bit of 
research and tweaking, if any, and see about patent ideas? I'd wait 
to disclose any info till you have the idea secured. Anyways, good 
luck, and I agree with the 4 to 8 box idea. And I would buy one or 
two cause I think I'm gonna get a second module as well =). Oh the 
endless possibilities!

-Zack-

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:

> It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each 
input
> and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is 
really
> a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the 
other
> pad and get another!

Can we assume that if both pads are hit at the same time that they 
will both play the same sound (presumably the 'rim' sound)?  A 
limitation of the rim switch system rather than a fault of your 
magic box I hasten to add!

Chris

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <proguk@h...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> 
> > It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each 
> input
> > and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is 
> really
> > a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the 
> other
> > pad and get another!
> 
> Can we assume that if both pads are hit at the same time that they 
> will both play the same sound (presumably the 'rim' sound)?  A 
> limitation of the rim switch system rather than a fault of your 
> magic box I hasten to add!
> 
> Chris

Yes. I sum the two signals together, so it you hit both the rim switch
will operate, so that is the sound you will get.  I could "switch" the
signals rather than summing them but the effect would be the same. 
The rim sound dominates.  You would have to hit them within around
30ms of one another to only get one sound (the rim sound), but this is
perfectly possible if you were trying to hit them at the same time.

Keith.

But as I heard, you can't control the beat velocity in rim switch input, I 
mean if you triggered the rim lightly or hardly it would give the same 
velocity of sound. Is it correct?


>From: "emf" <liberatusvirus@...>
>Reply-To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
>To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DTXpress] Re: The Magic Box exists!
>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:42:09 -0000
>
>--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been reading this group for a few months, got my DTXpress III
> > just under 2 weeks ago, and I design electronics for a living, so I
> > have designed and built the "Magic Box" I've heard about.  It is
>more
> > of a bird's nest and needs a bit of tweaking, but it works.
> >
> > It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each input
> > and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is
>really
> > a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the
>other
> > pad and get another! It needs a tweak because I have made the
> > detection of the pad which drives the rim switch too sensitive so
>that
> > while it works fine off the rack, hitting the non-rim pad on the
>rack
> > triggers the rim sound on all but the gentlest of touches.  I will
> > just need to change a resistor, but it probably needs an adjustable
> > one becuase you would need the equivalent of a rejection adjustment,
> > but you cannot do it in the DTX box becuase it is too late by then.
> >
> > Must go, drum practice time, then I am going out.
> >
> > I will post more information when I have adjusted it and had time to
> > try it out a little more.
>
>Hooray, Keith. Nice work. Eager to hear the details and the plans.
>Any idea what you intend to do with it?
>
>Ed
>

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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Abdulmalek Hamsho" <aa_mm_hh@h...>
wrote:
> 
> But as I heard, you can't control the beat velocity in rim switch
input, I 
> mean if you triggered the rim lightly or hardly it would give the same 
> velocity of sound. Is it correct?
> 

There is only one trigger setting for a dual/3 zone input, but there
are independent volume settings.  So for example you can only have one
velocity curve and rejection setting (the trigger menu) which will be
used for a dual input (ie both of the sounds on a single connector use
the same setting), but you can set the volume and sound decay etc
individually for the two sounds (the voice menu).  I am looking at
adding an adjustment in the box to allow adjustment of the "rim"
threshold because that cannot be adjusted independently in the DTX box.

There are going to be limitations because the DTXpress dual inputs
were intended to mimic specific instruments eg a cymbal with a rim
sound, not to put a timpani and a triangle on.  However, if you try it
on your dual zone cymbal it works fine.  It just might be a surpirce
if you didn't hit the rim hard enough and got the timpani when you
wanted a triangle!

Keith.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:

I am looking at
> adding an adjustment in the box to allow adjustment of the "rim"
> threshold because that cannot be adjusted independently in the DTX 
box.

Keith and Abdulmalek,

This characteristic will be dependent on the particular module. The 
Yamaha DTX v2.0, for example, had a variable rim setting that would 
allow the level of the rim voice to change with velocity. The 
DTXpress modules did not offer that feature. Any adjustment in the 
magic box to compensate for its absence should also be defeatable, 
because drummers with the venerable DTX might not need it.

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> 
> I am looking at
> > adding an adjustment in the box to allow adjustment of the "rim"
> > threshold because that cannot be adjusted independently in the DTX 
> box.
> 
> Keith and Abdulmalek,
> 
> This characteristic will be dependent on the particular module. The 
> Yamaha DTX v2.0, for example, had a variable rim setting that would 
> allow the level of the rim voice to change with velocity. The 
> DTXpress modules did not offer that feature. Any adjustment in the 
> magic box to compensate for its absence should also be defeatable, 
> because drummers with the venerable DTX might not need it.
> 
> Ed

The "threshold" I was thinking of is the one that I use to detect the
"rim" pad being hit and so switching the rim switch.  The threshold
needs to be adjustable because if it is too sensitive then it will
trigger due to rack vibration instead of becuase of hitting the
correct pad.  My first setting of this threshold worked fine with the
pads on the floor (carpet) but as soon as I put it on the rack I could
only get the rim sound - even tapping the other pad slightly was
detected by my oversensitve threshold.  This is now fixed.  I think I
understand what you are saying about the DTX v2.0, but I think this
adjustment will still be required.

Keith.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> The "threshold" I was thinking of is the one that I use to detect 
the
> "rim" pad being hit and so switching the rim switch.  The threshold
> needs to be adjustable because if it is too sensitive then it will
> trigger due to rack vibration instead of becuase of hitting the
> correct pad.  My first setting of this threshold worked fine with 
the
> pads on the floor (carpet) but as soon as I put it on the rack I 
could
> only get the rim sound - even tapping the other pad slightly was
> detected by my oversensitve threshold.  This is now fixed.  I think 
I
> understand what you are saying about the DTX v2.0, but I think this
> adjustment will still be required.

Keith,

Right. I got it. My ancillary point is that the DTX allows the rim 
voice to change by velocity, which is presumably a feature of gain, 
rather than MIDI voice-volume per se. If so, it might affect the 
threshold adjustment in the magic box, and vice versa. In other 
words, the two would be interactive at best and conflicting at worst. 
Am I off the track?

Ed

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "emf" <liberatusvirus@y...> wrote:
> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> > The "threshold" I was thinking of is the one that I use to detect 
> the
> > "rim" pad being hit and so switching the rim switch.  The threshold
> > needs to be adjustable because if it is too sensitive then it will
> > trigger due to rack vibration instead of becuase of hitting the
> > correct pad.  My first setting of this threshold worked fine with 
> the
> > pads on the floor (carpet) but as soon as I put it on the rack I 
> could
> > only get the rim sound - even tapping the other pad slightly was
> > detected by my oversensitve threshold.  This is now fixed.  I think 
> I
> > understand what you are saying about the DTX v2.0, but I think this
> > adjustment will still be required.
> 
> Keith,
> 
> Right. I got it. My ancillary point is that the DTX allows the rim 
> voice to change by velocity, which is presumably a feature of gain, 
> rather than MIDI voice-volume per se. If so, it might affect the 
> threshold adjustment in the magic box, and vice versa. In other 
> words, the two would be interactive at best and conflicting at worst. 
> Am I off the track?
> 
> Ed

I don't see any conflict.  The threshold I am putting in the magic box
is just a minimum level below which the rim switch will not switch. 
Ideally this will be set low so you can play very gentle sounds on the
pad connected to the rim input.  The only reason for needing it is
rack vibration from the pad on the SAME input affecting it.  If the
threshold is set low you will still get a wide range of volume inputs
depending on how hard you hit it.  It should still allow the DTX to
change its sound based on velocity.  

One question, when things refer to "velocity" do they really mean it
or is it based on how hard you hit it, which is not necessarily the
same thing (amplitude would probably be a better term than velocity)?
Velocity seems limited by the natural resonance of the piezo itself,
but amplitude depends on how hard you hit it.

Keith.

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> I don't see any conflict.  The threshold I am putting in the magic 
box
> is just a minimum level below which the rim switch will not switch. 
> Ideally this will be set low so you can play very gentle sounds on 
the
> pad connected to the rim input.  The only reason for needing it is
> rack vibration from the pad on the SAME input affecting it.  If the
> threshold is set low you will still get a wide range of volume 
inputs
> depending on how hard you hit it.  It should still allow the DTX to
> change its sound based on velocity. 

Hi Keith,

I had it in my head that the box and module could potentially be at 
odds, but now I see my mistake. Just to summarize the 
point, "Rejection" in the Yammie modules has a distinct influence on 
how much gain (and velocity) it takes for a pad to make a sound. High 
gain and low threshold mumbers make a pad more likely to suffer 
crosstalk than low gain and high threshold, although in the latter 
situation, the pad is also less likely to make a sound when desired. 
If you build an adjustable "rejection" into the box to take care of 
the "rim" pad, the same, presumably, would be true, but c'est la vie.

> One question, when things refer to "velocity" do they really mean it
> or is it based on how hard you hit it, which is not necessarily the
> same thing (amplitude would probably be a better term than 
velocity)?
> Velocity seems limited by the natural resonance of the piezo itself,
> but amplitude depends on how hard you hit it.
--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
> One question, when things refer to "velocity" do they really mean it
> or is it based on how hard you hit it, which is not necessarily the
> same thing (amplitude would probably be a better term than 
velocity)?
> Velocity seems limited by the natural resonance of the piezo itself,
> but amplitude depends on how hard you hit it.

Velocity has come to mean the force with which a pad is hit. As a 
MIDI term, it really isn't about piezos at all; it's just one part of 
the note description sent to a MIDI-capable tone generator. As so 
often happens, the term has shaken loose a bit.

Ed

For those of you that would like to try a double kick setup w/o parting
with your hard-earned moolah, a double kick kit lurks in every DTXpress,
all it takes is a bit of programming. Try this:

1) Set your hi-hat OPEN sound to a closed hat sound (*not* foot closed)
2) change the FOOT CLOSE sound on your hat pedal to a kick drum sound
3) pitch-change this kick drum sound up or down just slightly

Voila! You now have a double kick kit for $0! :)

FWIW: Step three is optional, but it can give the kick voices more
"presence" when notes are played very fast/close together (i.e. "buh-duh
buh-duh" instead of "duh-duh duh-duh"). This more closely replicates the
acoustic difference since there *is* a slight difference in the sound of
the kick when you have two beaters impacting at different places on the
drum head.

You can also make the open-hat sound a "splashy" sounding hat voice for
more heavy-metal sounding beats. I did this as an experiment and, though
the foot pedal for hi-hat doesn't *feel* like a kick, if you make this
one of your custom kits, it can work in a pinch if you have maybe one or
two songs that you need two kicks, but not enough to justify buying new
gear to do it. :)

Vern

-- 
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE    | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer    | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
http://www.txis.com        | is up, then we obviously don't need
Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" \ufffdVLG


Keith said:

> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <proguk@h...> wrote:
>> --- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Keith" <keith@k...> wrote:
>>
>> > It has two inputs and one output.  I have put a TP65 into each
>> input
>> > and taken the output into one Tom input and told the DTX it is
>> really
>> > a 3 zone snare.  Now I can hit one pad and get one sound and the
>> other
>> > pad and get another!
>>
>> Can we assume that if both pads are hit at the same time that they
>> will both play the same sound (presumably the 'rim' sound)?  A
>> limitation of the rim switch system rather than a fault of your
>> magic box I hasten to add!
>>
>> Chris
>
> Yes. I sum the two signals together, so it you hit both the rim switch
> will operate, so that is the sound you will get.  I could "switch" the
> signals rather than summing them but the effect would be the same.
> The rim sound dominates.  You would have to hit them within around
> 30ms of one another to only get one sound (the rim sound), but this is
> perfectly possible if you were trying to hit them at the same time.
>
> Keith.

Sorry, I don't mean the configuration of the sound, but the velocity of the 
beat. As I know, the Rim is not sensitive to the beat velocity. Am I 
correct?


>From: "Keith" <keith@...>
>Reply-To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
>To: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DTXpress] Re: The Magic Box exists!
>Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 09:32:11 -0000
>
>--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Abdulmalek Hamsho" <aa_mm_hh@h...>
>wrote:
> >
> > But as I heard, you can't control the beat velocity in rim switch
>input, I
> > mean if you triggered the rim lightly or hardly it would give the same
> > velocity of sound. Is it correct?
> >
>
>There is only one trigger setting for a dual/3 zone input, but there
>are independent volume settings.  So for example you can only have one
>velocity curve and rejection setting (the trigger menu) which will be
>used for a dual input (ie both of the sounds on a single connector use
>the same setting), but you can set the volume and sound decay etc
>individually for the two sounds (the voice menu).  I am looking at
>adding an adjustment in the box to allow adjustment of the "rim"
>threshold because that cannot be adjusted independently in the DTX box.
>
>There are going to be limitations because the DTXpress dual inputs
>were intended to mimic specific instruments eg a cymbal with a rim
>sound, not to put a timpani and a triangle on.  However, if you try it
>on your dual zone cymbal it works fine.  It just might be a surpirce
>if you didn't hit the rim hard enough and got the timpani when you
>wanted a triangle!
>
>Keith.
>
>

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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Abdulmalek Hamsho" <aa_mm_hh@h...>
wrote:
> Sorry, I don't mean the configuration of the sound, but the velocity
of the 
> beat. As I know, the Rim is not sensitive to the beat velocity. Am I 
> correct?
> 
> 

Yes and no.  The TP65S does not give a wide range of velocity for the
rim - I tried mine and the right rim won't trigger until you get to
60% and I find it impossible to get 99%, around 90% is the maximum. 
The left rim triggers a lot earlier, around 30%, but I cannot get that
above 60% (depends also on where round the cricumference you hit it).

The module however is a lot better.  My current circuit will only
reach 75% (a problem I have found and have a fix for, but have not
implemented yet) but I can trigger it at around 10% and it has a wide
range of volume depending on how hard you hit it (currently up to 75%,
but will be 99% soon).

Keith.