Digital BW, The Print

I've recently got another digital camera and want to try my hand again with my U14/Epson 1400 B&W prints. I'm traditionally a darkroom addict, but printing digital files with my enlarger doesn't work very well :)

I need to redo the ICC's that I created a couple of years ago, and printed the 21-step from Paul's site last night on Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte. I find the tones are very sepia colored. Is that expected? How can I get a cooler tone?

"mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@...> wrote:
>
> I've recently got another digital camera and want to try my hand again with my U14/Epson 1400 B&W prints. I'm traditionally a darkroom addict, but printing digital files with my enlarger doesn't work very well :)
> 
> I need to redo the ICC's that I created a couple of years ago, and printed the 21-step from Paul's site last night on Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte. I find the tones are very sepia colored. Is that expected? How can I get a cooler tone?
>

See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf

The cyan channel has cool inks in it.  The magenta channel is warm carbon.  A profile that uses mostly the cyan channel will give a neutral-cool print.  This can be done with either QTR or the Epson dirver -- with PS curves preferably in an ICC.  I think there are profiles in a zip file linked to the PDF>

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for the prompt response. Ideally I want to use an ICC with an embedded curve as I use LR to manage my images, and print. That is I don't want to have to enter PS to apply a curve to print the image :)

Is this document still the recommended process for embedded a curve in an ICC?

http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf

Regards, Matthew

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@> wrote:
> >
> > I've recently got another digital camera and want to try my hand again with my U14/Epson 1400 B&W prints. I'm traditionally a darkroom addict, but printing digital files with my enlarger doesn't work very well :)
> > 
> > I need to redo the ICC's that I created a couple of years ago, and printed the 21-step from Paul's site last night on Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte. I find the tones are very sepia colored. Is that expected? How can I get a cooler tone?
> >
> 
> See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-6.pdf
> 
> The cyan channel has cool inks in it.  The magenta channel is warm carbon.  A profile that uses mostly the cyan channel will give a neutral-cool print.  This can be done with either QTR or the Epson dirver -- with PS curves preferably in an ICC.  I think there are profiles in a zip file linked to the PDF>
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@...> wrote:
>
> ... Ideally I want to use an ICC with an embedded curve as I use LR to manage my images, and print. That is I don't want to have to enter PS to apply a curve to print the image :)
> 
> Is this document still the recommended process for embedded a curve in an ICC?
> 
> http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf

Yes, that PDF should have what you need.  The Profiles Zip file that is linked to UT14 PDF has several warm AVC curves in it.  You'll need to print those to see which is best.  Then read the 21-step test print and drop that text output along with the curve on the QTR rgb-raw-16.psd file (converted to raw).  

Matte papers will only get up to about Lab B = 8 with this carbon.  Crane Silver Rag makes the best looking sepia I've seen with the MIS carbon.

Let us know how it works out.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Actually, I want the prints to be cold toned. What I find is that the prints now are more sepia colored (or I guess warm toned). I guess, however, that the advice is the same.

What I'd ideally like to do though is understand the process better. Is there anything which really explains what magic is going on behind the scenes?

Regards, Matthew

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
> "mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@> wrote:
> >
> > ... Ideally I want to use an ICC with an embedded curve as I use LR to manage my images, and print. That is I don't want to have to enter PS to apply a curve to print the image :)
> > 
> > Is this document still the recommended process for embedded a curve in an ICC?
> > 
> > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf
> 
> Yes, that PDF should have what you need.  The Profiles Zip file that is linked to UT14 PDF has several warm AVC curves in it.  You'll need to print those to see which is best.  Then read the 21-step test print and drop that text output along with the curve on the QTR rgb-raw-16.psd file (converted to raw).  
> 
> Matte papers will only get up to about Lab B = 8 with this carbon.  Crane Silver Rag makes the best looking sepia I've seen with the MIS carbon.
> 
> Let us know how it works out.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I tried the neutral & warm curves in the 1400 archive attached to http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf. I don't really see much difference in the output of the 21 step. I then tried a color balance curve setting cyan all the way to the left. That lead to a very cyan looking image for the wedge. The print output looked basically the same however :( Is it simply not possible to get output that looks similar to traditional Ilford FB paper developed with Dektol with this inkset? Is it perhaps the paper (Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte)? Perhaps I'm doing something wrong in the PS print settings?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@...> wrote:

>
> Actually, I want the prints to be cold toned. What I find is that the prints now are more sepia colored (or I guess warm toned). I guess, however, that the advice is the same.
> 
> What I'd ideally like to do though is understand the process better. Is there anything which really explains what magic is going on behind the scenes?
> 
> Regards, Matthew
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@> wrote:
> >
> > "mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@> wrote:
> > >
> > > ... Ideally I want to use an ICC with an embedded curve as I use LR to manage my images, and print. That is I don't want to have to enter PS to apply a curve to print the image :)
> > > 
> > > Is this document still the recommended process for embedded a curve in an ICC?
> > > 
> > > http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf
> > 
> > Yes, that PDF should have what you need.  The Profiles Zip file that is linked to UT14 PDF has several warm AVC curves in it.  You'll need to print those to see which is best.  Then read the 21-step test print and drop that text output along with the curve on the QTR rgb-raw-16.psd file (converted to raw).  
> > 
> > Matte papers will only get up to about Lab B = 8 with this carbon.  Crane Silver Rag makes the best looking sepia I've seen with the MIS carbon.
> > 
> > Let us know how it works out.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

"mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@...> wrote:
>
> I tried the neutral & warm curves in the 1400 archive attached to http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf. I don't really see much difference in the output of the 21 step.

See page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf.  There is a very distinct difference in tones that the inkset can achieve.  Basically the Photoshop curves embedded in the ICCs use different amounts of the cyan (cool) inks and magenta (warm) inks to make the different tones.

> Is it simply not possible to get output that looks similar to traditional Ilford FB paper developed with Dektol with this inkset?

My memory of that combination was that it was slightly warm, but I don't know the exact Lab A & B values.  With the UT14 inkset you mostly have control of the Lab B values.  With respect to the glossy v. matte difference, displaying the print under glass largely eliminates the difference.

> Perhaps I'm doing something wrong in the PS print settings?

That is often the problem.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I spent some time again today on this. Viewing the 21 step wedge under day light clearly showed that there is indeed a difference between the neutral and warm curved prints. Looks like I didn't mess up my PS settings :)

I installed QTR and started creating some custom curves to learn more about the process. I'm really enjoying the UT-14 inkset with QTR; makes alot of sense to me now. One thing I'm having trouble with, however, is the overall print being too dark. Perhaps I specified too high a ink limit? I've setup a cool curve which uses only the black ink and the cyans (I have a similar warm curve that only uses black + magentas; but I first want to nail the cool setup), and then measured using my scanner the densities. What I've found when linearizing the wedge was that I had a pronounced dip in the shadows (something like 90 77 70) and poor separation the lights (wedge 10/15/20 all measure the same L value). Any thoughts on possible solutions?

Regards, Matthew

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
>  "mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@> wrote:
> >
> > I tried the neutral & warm curves in the 1400 archive attached to http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf. I don't really see much difference in the output of the 21 step.
> 
> See page 6 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/UT14.pdf.  There is a very distinct difference in tones that the inkset can achieve.  Basically the Photoshop curves embedded in the ICCs use different amounts of the cyan (cool) inks and magenta (warm) inks to make the different tones.
> 
> > Is it simply not possible to get output that looks similar to traditional Ilford FB paper developed with Dektol with this inkset?
> 
> My memory of that combination was that it was slightly warm, but I don't know the exact Lab A & B values.  With the UT14 inkset you mostly have control of the Lab B values.  With respect to the glossy v. matte difference, displaying the print under glass largely eliminates the difference.
> 
> > Perhaps I'm doing something wrong in the PS print settings?
> 
> That is often the problem.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

"mjnewhook" <mjnewhook@...> wrote:
>
> ... the overall print [is] too dark. 

Usually after a QTR profile is linearized people think it is too light or has a poor dmax, but this is due to it using a truly linear response curve and not the compressed curve that may be displayed on the monitor if you're using gray gamma 2.2 as the working space.  So, if the QTR print is too light and it's been linearized, I'm wondering what gray space you're using with your monitor and whether the monitor is calibrated correctly.

What I've noticed as I've move to an LCD monitor from my old CRT is that the new monitor is way too bright to match any print.  It makes for an impressive monitor display, but it's like a slide with a 500 watt lamp -- no print could possible match it.

>... What I've found when linearizing the wedge was that I had a pronounced dip in the shadows (something like 90 77 70) and poor separation the lights (wedge 10/15/20 all measure the same L value). Any thoughts on possible solutions?

I'm not sure what would cause that, but a couple of things I recommend is, first, when you set the black ink limit, take advantage of the Black Boost.  Set the K limit at where the black ink slope gets so low  you don't really see much visual difference.  Then use the Boost for the ultimate peak of the K density.  I often just set the K limit to 10 below the actual dmax, with the boost being the dmax.  Then the "densities" are based on a 21-step printed with the K limit, NOT the boost.

Second, just try setting the default ink limit at where the K limit is and using that for all the inks.  So, say the K limit is 35, the boost (true dmax) is at 45.  You'll print a K 21-step at ink limit 35 and then compare the other ink densities from the initial Calibration Mode print, at their 35% amount, to the densities of the K 21-step printed at the 35 limit.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com