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Workflow assistance?

Workflow assistance?

2014-07-20 by michael3442@...

While a long-time reader of this board, over the years I've posted few messages as I've always been able to figure out my printer issues or others here have had better answers to other posted issues. Now, however, I have need of some advice in tweaking, or changing, a workflow for a series of difficult to manage files. The files all share the same characteristics, so figuring out one image will apply to the series. I'm thinking that maybe I should upload a reduced size file to either this site or to my dropbox account. I could upload the original raw file, my finished file, and my detailed workflow as has been written down. My goal would be to find a simpler workflow than what I now have. If the uploading of the file seems like a reasonable way to go, what size file would you recommend so it's small enough to easily work on and large enough to provide adequate information. The original file is a raw scan of a 9x12 cm (nearly 4x5) b&w negative and is 205 mb while my finished file, not flattened, is 1.2 gb. What do you think? Is this a good way to get assistance on this or are there other options I haven't thought of? Thanks!


Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-21 by Myron Gochnauer

. . . maybe I should upload a reduced size file to either this site or to my dropbox account. I could upload the original raw file, my finished file, and my detailed workflow as has been written down.

Using your DropBox account is best, since the cost of storing a large file is then yours and you don’t need to fret about it.

The finished file can certainly be reduced in size, assuming the end result illustrates the points you want to make.

As for the raw file, IF there is a severe cropping that would leave representative areas for manipulation, you might put a cropped (but otherwise minimally processed) version in your DropBox. Some raw converters allow saving to DNG format - - - what converter are you using?

I for one would be very interested in this project, if only because it gives me a chance to look over someone’s shoulder “in the darkroom”. :-)

Myron



Re: [Digital BW] Workflow assistance?

2014-07-21 by mrjimbo2

Hi Michael,
Read your post a couple of times... What I think I'm reading is that your after an easier or more efficient way to get to the final image.. and that your ok with the results when you get there using the process / work flow your  presently using. If your not happy with the results also try to say what's missing for you.

I don't feel that you need to put huge imagery out there for that maybe an 8x10 or 11x14 of the scan and the final @300 dpi.. at most.. and a screen shot of your screen showing all your layers so it's easier to follow the process. 

Also platform ,OS & level, Software used and levels and of course your steps in the process..  along with typical final print size etc.. Your drop box would be a good place for it then those that want to participate can download the kit and check it out..

I would also reiterate specifically what your after as a deliverable from those that take it on or it'll likely turn into not what your after and get derailed..

jimbo
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: michael3442@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2014 1:01 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Workflow assistance?


    
  While a long-time reader of this board, over the years I've posted few messages as I've always been able to figure out my printer issues or others here have had better answers to other posted issues. Now, however, I have need of some advice in tweaking, or changing, a workflow for a series of difficult to manage files. The files all share the same characteristics, so figuring out one image will apply to the series. I'm thinking that maybe I should upload a reduced size file to either this site or to my dropbox account. I could upload the original raw file, my finished file, and my detailed workflow as has been written down. My goal would be to find a simpler workflow than what I now have. If the uploading of the file seems like a reasonable way to go, what size file would you recommend so it's small enough to easily work on and large enough to provide adequate information. The original file is a raw scan of a 9x12 cm (nearly 4x5) b&w negative and is 205 mb while my finished file, not flattened, is 1.2 gb. What do you think? Is this a good way to get assistance on this or are there other options I haven't thought of? Thanks!






  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7888 - Release Date: 07/20/14

Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-22 by Michael-K

Thanks for responding. I'll make reduced size files to make this easier and will edit my workflow to clean it up. Then I'll upload the "kit" to Dropbox and put a link here; hopefully I'll get this done in 1-2 days. If folks want to actually attempt to solve the problem with getting their hands dirty (er, inky?), that's great; I suspect those with the depth of skill that I know reads this forum will have comments simply by looking at the images and reading the workflow. Whatever works is great for me. What is really surprising to find out, is that these images were easy to print in the darkroom, with minimal dodging/burning; reproducing the look of the original exhibition print using PS is proving to be a monumental task. (Note, I'm not a PS expert by any means, more like low end intermediate.) I'm looking forward to getting some feedback.

Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-23 by michael3442@...

I've now uploaded several files to Dropbox, these include:
a) workflow
b) original (jpg & tif)
c) final edit with layers (psd)
d) final edit (jpg)
e) print master (psd & jpg)

I've been having trouble uploading the psd & tif files as Dropbox appears to be struggling with the formats, thus the jpg versions. If someone has a suggestion on how to deal with this, let me know.

Michael Kehoe

Digital BW

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-23 by pdesmidt tds.net

Dropbox has no problem with tiff files that I've noticed.
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On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 11:46 AM, michael3442@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I've now uploaded several files to Dropbox, these include:
a) workflow
b) original (jpg & tif)
c) final edit with layers (psd)
d) final edit (jpg)
e) print master (psd & jpg)

I've been having trouble uploading the psd & tif files as Dropbox appears to be struggling with the formats, thus the jpg versions. If someone has a suggestion on how to deal with this, let me know.



Michael Kehoe

Digital BW
Digital BW
Shared with Dropbox
Preview by Yahoo


Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by michael3442@...

My files are uploaded to Dropbox and can be downloaded to check them out; right click on each file and choose download. On Dropbox, the tif & psd thumbnails & previews do not display properly but the jpg previews are fine. Once downloaded, all files open properly in PS. I'm looking forward to hearing your comments. Here's the link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j69xl4gurq2qq3c/AAANyw2ul8DMccYnfcggENmya

Michael K

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by mrjimbo2

Hi Michael,
I have the images on the house computer but will move them later out to the studio.. But I did look at the files.. First I feel the scans should have been quite different given where you took it.. A note on scanning.. I try to never scan for a pure white or black in a scan I set my scanners up to back off a bit. The reason for that is white and black basically have no information and once it's gone it's gone.  The foreground snow will print basically paper white with no texture at all and snow does have texture to it.. 
Ok so what I also did was opened up your PSD scan and final files and put them next to each other .. Using Levels first I got the image on the same page as your finished file, followed by a curve tweak then a contrast bump a slight clarity bump I got to your image pretty close except I didn't go quite as white with the snow as you did..  then I then made a quick sharpening mask ( I do this using a channel..) so maybe 8 / 10 minutes max.. Note this was a down and dirty effort but it looked ok.. In all fairness I was using your finished image as the target so I didn't have to invent where I was going that made it a lot easier for me. 

So more later  after the I wrap up with the farrier (it's horse shoeing day here)..  

So a quick recap... and this is intended to contribute.. It pretty important to have an idea of what you want the image to look like when your doing the scan.. I've not seen the neg but I'll bet it's not the same as the scan.. Regardless the vision starts in the scanning stage rather then trying to "fix" a scan in PS.. I saw no reference to levels in your workflow doc... that was the first thing I used.. followed by smoosing it a tad using curves.. then the rest.. but the image was basically set up towards a known target after that ...then it's just quality improvements to get it where your happy with it.. and playing a bit more in the detail.. What version of PS are you using?  Lastly, especially an image such as this one I like making a custom sharpening mask in a channel ..Once you get used to doing that it goes really fast.. The plus to it is that you can easily erase areas that you don't want to apply any sharpening such as the snow or sky or?? an  by removing more of the mask you can selectively sharpen certain areas twice to sneak in another bump if it's appropriate.

jimbo ----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  From: michael3442@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:09 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    
  My files are uploaded to Dropbox and can be downloaded to check them out; right click on each file and choose download. On Dropbox, the tif & psd thumbnails & previews do not display properly but the jpg previews are fine. Once downloaded, all files open properly in PS.  I'm looking forward to hearing your comments. Here's the link:

  https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j69xl4gurq2qq3c/AAANyw2ul8DMccYnfcggENmya

  Michael K

  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7918 - Release Date: 07/25/14

Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by michael3442@...

Jimbo, thanks for looking at the images. Regarding the scanning, I made a "raw scan" of the negative which has no scanner software adjustments involved - just the bare scan and out to a tif file. (Raw scans appear dull, dark, and muddy but contain all the information on the negative.) I've experimented with adding basic adjustments in the scanning software, but I can't find any advantage to doing so if a full workup of a file will follow anyway.

Again the area of difficulty is getting the tree tips to show against the overcast sky, when the tips range from slightly darker to lighter than the sky. It's like masking blond hair against a white background. And I want to end up with the entire sky at a specific luminosity level, in this case, 243.

You mention not seeing a levels adjustment layer in my workflow; I skipped that and included those adjustments in my overall curve layer. And you mentioned making a custom sharpening mask in a channel. I'm afraid your words fall on uneducated ears, I'm not familiar with that process, but, as the saying goes, I'm "all ears" to learn about it.

BTW, last summer we visited some friends at their ranch somewhere is the Martinsdale reservoir area; and, I lived in Bozeman for a couple of years in the '70s. Thanks again.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by mrjimbo2

I have a few minutes as were taking a break.. I'm struggling with something so some clarification please.. Maybe it's just understanding something a bit better then I'll be fine. Ok so you made what your calling a raw scan off a B&W negative.. and you basically let the scanner do it's thing with out you making any adjustments to what the scanners output would be.. That is how I'm understanding what you said. That would have me believe that image if done properly was photographed on a really dreary day maybe at first light when lights and darks and contrast aren't available.. Speaking as a shooter and the only reason I'm saying this is that in an earlier post I got that this concept will apply to a larger body of work not just this image.. Where I'm struggling is that I've been a shooter for long time.. If I'm after world class images that's not the light to  shoot in. So I'm honestly going to head back to the scanner ok.. so bare with me.  With scanners their is a base level .. and that is how they see things natively... then their is a level on top of that that lets you adjust that.. the second level is not where I'm  ...It's the base level and I think this where it broken.. I have a Tango, a Howtek Hi-resolve 8000 that's been Azteked, a Nexscan 4200 flat bed & a Betterlight 8k scan back... all of these I've built what I guess I call base level input profiles just so they can see and deliver what's their correctly.. Every piece of equipment I have has access to different input profiles to match the material an dor lighting  I'm trying to capture something in.... So at a foundation level I think I'm just trying to get where your at so I can figure out where to go.. So what are you scanning with and what and what software?  
Your trying to be a painter living in a photographers body.. it's easier honest.. we'll get there.

jimbo
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: michael3442@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 11:33 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    
  Jimbo, thanks for looking at the images. Regarding the scanning, I made a "raw scan" of the negative which has no scanner software adjustments involved - just the bare scan and out to a tif file. (Raw scans appear dull, dark, and muddy but contain all the information on the negative.) I've experimented with adding basic adjustments in the scanning software, but I can't find any advantage to doing so if a full workup of a file will follow anyway. 

  Again the area of difficulty is getting the tree tips to show against the overcast sky, when the tips range from slightly darker to lighter than the sky. It's like masking blond hair against a white background. And I want to end up with the entire sky at a specific luminosity level, in this case, 243. 

  You mention not seeing a levels adjustment layer in my workflow; I skipped that and included those adjustments in my overall curve layer. And you mentioned making a custom sharpening mask in a channel. I'm afraid your words fall on uneducated ears, I'm not familiar with that process, but, as the saying goes, I'm "all ears" to learn about it.

  BTW, last summer we visited some friends at their ranch somewhere is the Martinsdale reservoir area; and, I lived in Bozeman for a couple of years in the '70s. Thanks again.

  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7918 - Release Date: 07/25/14

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by Paul Roark

michael3442@... ... wrote:

... the area of difficulty is getting the tree tips to show against the overcast sky, when the tips range from slightly darker to lighter than the sky. It's like masking blond hair against a white background. ...

First, that's a very nice image and worth doing some work to perfect.

Looking at the scan, was the original a 16 bit? Given the gray nature of the image, you'll need as many bits to play with as possible.

Separating the tree tips from the sky is a problem in lots of my work. With your image the signal to noise ratio -- that is, the detail you want compared to the film grain -- is so low at the tree tips that no single PS tool is going to do it "automatically" for you. What I find is that selecting by Highlights (PS CC) can get me close. Then you'll just have to paint in the final missing segments. Once you have the subject matter masked, you can wipe out the grain.

I've posted some screen shots of the tree tips at 300% at

(Although not applicable here, I might add that one reason I like shooting RGB digital even though B&W is my target, is that with the color information often selecting by color range is more accurate than is possible with B&W film. Also, the noise is usually lower with modern digital. I use CS5 for selecting by RGB color range, however, because I just don't get PS CC's color range approach.)

BTW, did you want the sky to be featureless? There is enough information in the scan to show that there was a cloudy sky there.

Back to the tree tips, I sometimes find when burning a sky that doing it a little at a time with different feathering of the mask can help. Yesterday I just "painted in" a burned sky manually using different sizes of brushes. I make a duplicate layer, darken it, and then "paint in" the effects with the eraser tool on the top layer.

Often good images take a lot of work, but that is what separates them from the mundane.

Good luck with this one.

Paul


Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-25 by michael3442@...

Thanks again, Jimbo. The concept behind "raw scan" is that scanning can be either a one or two step process. As a one step process you scan the image and save the file to disk without any processing at the hardware/scanner level (resembling a RAW capture). The idea is that PS is just as capable, if not more-so, than the scanner's software to render the file into a suitable image. As a two step process, first the image is scanned and then, due to choices made when setting up the scanning software, the file is processed in the scanner; then it's saved to disk. From here the file can be further processed in PS, LR, and so on.

I've done a fair amount of experimentation with these two methods and do not find any advantage to the two step process over the one step. With the one step method I can be certain I'm getting everything the image has to offer without the intervention by the scanner's software. Raw scanned images/negs show up as dark images in PS and that may be seen as a disadvantage; however, that does not reflect on the quality of the file. (I'm not an authority on this method; I've just read a bit and have experimented a bit. If I'm proven to be misguided, then I'll change my ways.)

As for the image(s) in this series (NE Minnesota landscapes in winter), I only shoot when it's completely overcast, outside, thus providing very low contrast. It also may be snowing as can be observed in the present image. With these images, what I "see" eventually turns up as the final print and may be different from what the film/sensor records, but that's the way it always is; the tools are part of the process at arriving at a final image ready for viewing. I'm not trying to be true to the film/sensor; I'm trying to be true to my experience of nature. These images aren't for everyone, but a surprising number of folks find they strike a fairly deep cord. I'll post a couple of additional images from this series that I've recently completed; they'll be up sometime this evening (fri.).

As for equipment, I scan with an Epson 4870 using Epson Scan, process with PS CS5, and print with an Epson r2400 (larger prints will eventually have to be sent out).

Michael

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by michael3442@...

Hi Paul, thanks for the reply.

Yes, the 9x12+/- cm Tri-X negative was scanned at 3,200 dpi and exported from scanner to disk as a 16 bit tif.

Regarding your screen shots of the tree tips. Is that selecting by Highlights only in PS CC and not is earlier versions like my CS5? Can you tell me a little more about the workflow between your two screen shots? This looks like it could be very useful.

Your question about whether my desire is to have a featureless sky. Yes, although I've never given a great deal of attention to exploring a more featured rendering. I've been assuming I could look at that after I get the image to be as I originally printed it in the darkroom (it's close, if not there) and to figure out this tree tips issue so my remaining images don't have me so overwhelmed by the thought of painting pixels. (Actually the pixel work was a little meditative, but, enough is enough.

I'll have to come back to your final comment.

BTW, I uploaded two additional images to the Dropbox folder; they're called Pike Island & Fallen Tree. (If they don't open in the preview mode, download them and they'll open right up in PS. Something weird is going on with Dropbox.)

Thanks for your comments.
Michael
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by Paul Roark

Michael,

I actually like CS5 better for some things, and the workflow I use works with it.

The first thing I'd do with the scan is use levels to get better contrast.
Use the slider (red circle) while holding down the Ctrl. key to see where your highlights really are, as opposed to the holes in the film due to dust, etc. All of the things to the right of the slider are non-image specks of dust.

I would probably try using masks/selections so that I could clean up the sky/clouds and separate them from the twigs. CS5 has selection tools similar to CC, but the selection by Highlights (Select>Color range>Highlights) is not as flexible as the CC version.
I think defining the color range for selection in CS5, however, is easier than in CC.
I used the eyedropper with a sample area of 11 pixels to sample the sky.

Once an initial selection is made, turn it into a workable Quick mask (button checked red in the screen grab, below).
Then with only that channel selection, you can work on it as if it's an image. If there is too much grain showing, try the curves tool as shown. Also, use the paintbrush to get rid of grain.

When I select by color range, I often make several (many) different masks for different parts of the image. Typically when I want to select the sky, for example, I'll sample the color/gray level with the eyedropper in one small area and select by that color. It may be good only for that area, not the entire sky. So, I save that selection and go an area where the sky border was not well selected, take another sample, and make another selection by color range. These selections can be combined by pulling up the first one and making it into a Quick Mask. Then pull up the second selection and use the paintbrush to transfer that selection, where it is better than the first one, to the quick mask. Then convert back to a selection and save it.

Making good masks takes some work, but once you have a good one that separates the interesting image material from the sky or clouds, you can then accentuate what you're interested in -- like the detail of the trees.

There are lots of different ways to work up images in PS. Obviously making detailed masks only make sense for images that you think are worth the work. If an image is really good, however, being able to deal with one part of it at a time really helps. Selections/masks can help do this.

We still "paint with light," but in the computer it can be so much more accurate than with hand dodging and burning under the enlarger. I used to make heavy paper masks for enlarger work. They were more accurate than the simple pre-made ones of hands, but PS allows a whole different level of accuracy that the old masters would be very envious of.

It9;s a long learning curve.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by mrjimbo2

I think I'm getting it now.. Where I'm getting confused is your using the term "raw" I believe you save your files off as tiff's right? As is typically done with most scanners. The term raw to me I associate more with the current file format of DSLR's.. which is a totally different file format in function.. The tiff format , which I think very highly of, is technically loss less in it's initial capture level so the..scan is loss less. But as soon as you start modifying a tiff whether it's 8 or 16 bit you start the process of acquiring some form of loss. The reason is that the file is now a mathematical interpretation of color.. When the scanner see's it it's still rgb not math yet... Anyway if you make some adjustments to the initial capture to get you closer to your final intent the tiff you then get is still loss less initially so your closer to where you want to go.. I am not the greatest at vocalizing things I apologize for that. Paul is so great at it.. :-).. 

Ok regarding scanning .. depending upon what I'm up to I often scan a B&W negs in color.. this is what's up with that .. In B&W we have basically 255 steps.. white is 0 and black is 255.. When you scan in color you basically have 3 sets of 255 steps each set see's the B&W differently so when were making significant adjustments it helps us hold the final intent closer and the technology of going from color to B&W is about the best it's ever been today. Just sayin...

Ok masks, I am in total agreement with Paul.. masks are literally awesome and often a real PIA to make but well worth the effort.. Their are many ways to make masks. I typically like using a channel mask that I make.. maybe one of my favorites is as follows.. I copy the whole image into a new channel.. Selecting that channel I then go into filters and use find edges.. This basically turns the image into sort of a line drawing.. now using levels I adjust it to retain what I want ..typically the left slider moves way over to the right.. and the right slider will move closer to the left..  their is one more step .. but first if you want several masks that will affect areas of the image differently make another copy of that channel for use later.. The next step is to look at the mask and erase anything you don't want it to affect.. or add in what's missing.. Ok now I use Gaussin blur on the channel maybe 2 to 4 pixels to affect a blend when I use the mask to help eliminate pixelation at the edges.. Then it simply a matter of loading the mask but make sure to select inverse so it works properly.. This is probably my favorite masking method as it so fast to get their and it easy to modify it to achieve different results in different areas of the image.. You can even make an action to build it.. still allowing for your making adjustments in the process of making it. Their are a few other tricks that can be tied to masks to help when the detail starts really getting small that you want to work with but hopefully you get the concept of the mask I like..

jimbo
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    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: michael3442@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 4:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    
  Thanks again, Jimbo. The concept behind "raw scan" is that scanning can be either a one or two step process. As a one step process you scan the image and save the file to disk without any processing at the hardware/scanner level (resembling a RAW capture). The idea is that PS is just as capable, if not more-so, than the scanner's software to render the file into a suitable image. As a two step process, first the image is scanned and then, due to choices made when setting up the scanning software, the file is processed in the scanner; then it's saved to disk. From here the file can be further processed in PS, LR, and so on. 

  I've done a fair amount of experimentation with these two methods and do not find any advantage to the two step process over the one step. With the one step method I can be certain I'm getting everything the image has to offer without the intervention by the scanner's software. Raw scanned images/negs show up as dark images in PS and that may be seen as a disadvantage; however, that does not reflect on the quality of the file. (I'm not an authority on this method; I've just read a bit and have experimented a bit. If I'm proven to be misguided, then I'll change my ways.)

  As for the image(s) in this series (NE Minnesota landscapes in winter), I only shoot when it's completely overcast, outside, thus providing very low contrast. It also may be snowing as can be observed in the present image. With these images, what I "see" eventually turns up as the final print and may be different from what the film/sensor records, but that's the way it always is; the tools are part of the process at arriving at a final image ready for viewing. I'm not trying to be true to the film/sensor; I'm trying to be true to my experience of nature. These images aren't for everyone, but a surprising number of folks find they strike a fairly deep cord. I'll post a couple of additional images from this series that I've recently completed; they'll be up sometime this evening (fri.).

  As for equipment, I scan with an Epson 4870 using Epson Scan, process with PS CS5, and print with an Epson r2400 (larger prints will eventually have to be sent out).

  Michael

  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7918 - Release Date: 07/25/14

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by pdesmidt tds.net

Jimbo said, "Anyway if you make some adjustments to the initial capture to get you closer to your final intent the tiff you then get is still loss less initially so your closer to where you want to go.."

Jimbo's right, as long as the adjustments affect what data the scanner captures. Things like exposure time, aperture size... But if the adjustments are applied to the captured data, such as a curves adjustment, then there's no advantage to doing the adjustment in the scanner software over doing the adjustment in Photoshop. The problem is that it's hard to know whether the scanning software is making capture adjustments or post capture software adjustments.


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On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 8:06 AM, 'mrjimbo2' mrjimbo2@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



I think I'm getting it now.. Where I'm getting confused is your using the term "raw" I believe you save your files off as tiff's right? As is typically done with most scanners. The term raw to me I associate more with the current file format of DSLR's.. which is a totally different file format in function.. The tiff format , which I think very highly of, is technically loss less in it's initial capture level so the..scan is loss less. But as soon as you start modifying a tiff whether it's 8 or 16 bit you start the process of acquiring some form of loss. The reason is that the file is now a mathematical interpretation of color.. When the scanner see's it it's still rgb not math yet... Anyway if you make some adjustments to the initial capture to get you closer to your final intent the tiff you then get is still loss less initially so your closer to where you want to go.. I am not the greatest at vocalizing things I apologize for that. Paul is so great at it.. :-)..
Ok regarding scanning .. depending upon what I'm up to I often scan a B&W negs in color.. this is what's up with that .. In B&W we have basically 255 steps.. white is 0 and black is 255.. When you scan in color you basically have 3 sets of 255 steps each set see's the B&W differently so when were making significant adjustments it helps us hold the final intent closer and the technology of going from color to B&W is about the best it's ever been today. Just sayin...
Ok masks, I am in total agreement with Paul.. masks are literally awesome and often a real PIA to make but well worth the effort.. Their are many ways to make masks. I typically like using a channel mask that I make.. maybe one of my favorites is as follows.. I copy the whole image into a new channel.. Selecting that channel I then go into filters and use find edges.. This basically turns the image into sort of a line drawing.. now using levels I adjust it to retain what I want ..typically the left slider moves way over to the right.. and the right slider will move closer to the left.. their is one more step .. but first if you want several masks that will affect areas of the image differently make another copy of that channel for use later.. The next step is to look at the mask and erase anything you don9;t want it to affect.. or add in what's missing.. Ok now I use Gaussin blur on the channel maybe 2 to 4 pixels to affect a blend when I use the mask to help eliminate pixelation at the edges.. Then it simply a matter of loading the mask but make sure to select inverse so it works properly.. This is probably my favorite masking method as it so fast to get their and it easy to modify it to achieve different results in different areas of the image.. You can even make an action to build it.. still allowing for your making adjustments in the process of making it. Their are a few other tricks that can be tied to masks to help when the detail starts really getting small that you want to work with but hopefully you get the concept of the mask I like..
jimbo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

Thanks again, Jimbo. The concept behind "raw scan" is that scanning can be either a one or two step process. As a one step process you scan the image and save the file to disk without any processing at the hardware/scanner level (resembling a RAW capture). The idea is that PS is just as capable, if not more-so, than the scanner's software to render the file into a suitable image. As a two step process, first the image is scanned and then, due to choices made when setting up the scanning software, the file is processed in the scanner; then it's saved to disk. From here the file can be further processed in PS, LR, and so on.

I've done a fair amount of experimentation with these two methods and do not find any advantage to the two step process over the one step. With the one step method I can be certain I'm getting everything the image has to offer without the intervention by the scanner's software. Raw scanned images/negs show up as dark images in PS and that may be seen as a disadvantage; however, that does not reflect on the quality of the file. (I'm not an authority on this method; I've just read a bit and have experimented a bit. If I'm proven to be misguided, then I'll change my ways.)

As for the image(s) in this series (NE Minnesota landscapes in winter), I only shoot when it's completely overcast, outside, thus providing very low contrast. It also may be snowing as can be observed in the present image. With these images, what I "see" eventually turns up as the final print and may be different from what the film/sensor records, but that's the way it always is; the tools are part of the process at arriving at a final image ready for viewing. I'm not trying to be true to the film/sensor; I'm trying to be true to my experience of nature. These images aren't for everyone, but a surprising number of folks find they strike a fairly deep cord. I'll post a couple of additional images from this series that I've recently completed; they'll be up sometime this evening (fri.).

As for equipment, I scan with an Epson 4870 using Epson Scan, process with PS CS5, and print with an Epson r2400 (larger prints will eventually have to be sent out).

Michael

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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by michael3442@...

Jimbo, many thanks for that. I'll be printing out that masking info. 'cause I'm sure I'll be reading it over and over. If you get any further ideas on how to deal with the tree tips, please post them; I've really got to get this tree tips issue nailed down once and for all.

Do you have a website where one can take a look at your work? I've read you posts for years but haven't a clue as to what interests you photographically. Also, what part of Montana do you live in?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by mrjimbo2

Just a few more words here.. in an effort to make it hopefully more logical.. First a scanner has to be dialed in to respond to a certain film type correctly.. The scanner is working in an rgb space much like our eyes but it's a mechanical widget.. I will totally agree that it's just fine to let a scanner do it thing but only when it has  a proper input file that will allow it to respond to the film type correctly. Scanners have input profiles that help them respond or capture data properly.. To assume that one input profile will allow a scanner to respond to all film types is totally incorrect. Their are basically maybe 4 / 6 different input profiles required to capture all the various film types out there.. Plus over time a scanners response characteristics change..You'll still get a scan if you use the wrong one but it won't be the correct characterization or scanner response to the film.. 

Ok so hang with me for a minute here ok? What a scanner does is simply creates a mathematical representation of the rgb response of the scanner to the film type so that in our digital world we can see it and use it.. Ok so the tiff file that comes off the scanner is a fixed mathematical image that is subject to some level of being degraded from a quality standpoint as we take our trust little Photoshop chain saw to it.. The farther you push the file the more degrading things will start to show up.. So all that being said now lets go back to the scan process for a minute.. The single point I'm attempting to share is that if you do something that tells the scanner to interpret the rgb differently then it is it is simply creating altered mathematical data that that is derived from how the scanner responds to the rgb scanning process.. Where I'm going with this is simple the mathematical information that is in the tiff file is a loss less, at this point, representation that is closer to hopefully one's final intent ..What I'm trying to say is that you've gained some head room that you won't loose in Photoshop pushing pixels around..  I sincerely apologize ... again I'm not really that great at saying things ..  

So to sum up or try to.. we need the scanner to respond correctly to capture accurately what is on the piece of film.. That is controlled buy the scanners input profile.. If I ask the scanner to see the rgb source a little differently so the capture can be improved a bit that is a plus not a minus.. remember I'm scanning a pixel at a time.. so I can tell it to see a certain pixel type a little different .. So how many of you in Photoshop adjust just one pixel value all over your image.. The end point is that the scanner is a great partner and a great tool to assist in making world class images.. and to think that it can't participate in that and that PS is the only one is total BS.. It's simply a partner ship.. Those that choose to not utilize that partnership I say are working harder to get to the other side.. That is not to say that PS isn't a great tool it most certainly is.. But PS can only respond to what you tell it to do.. The scanners job is the other half of the equation.. It responds to the film type and an rgb to digital conversion of that response and what's kool is that we can teach it how to do that..  Sorry I may be derailing the train here don't mean to do that.

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 'pdesmidt tds.net' pdesmidt@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    

  Jimbo said, "Anyway if you make some adjustments to the initial capture to get you closer to your final intent the tiff you then get is still loss less initially so your closer to where you want to go.."


  Jimbo's right, as long as the adjustments affect what data the scanner captures.  Things like exposure time, aperture size...  But if the adjustments are applied to the captured data, such as a curves adjustment, then there's no advantage to doing the adjustment in the scanner software over doing the adjustment in Photoshop.  The problem is that it's hard to know whether the scanning software is making capture adjustments or post capture software adjustments.  







  On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 8:06 AM, 'mrjimbo2' mrjimbo2@wispwest.net [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      
     

    I think I'm getting it now.. Where I'm getting confused is your using the term "raw" I believe you save your files off as tiff's right? As is typically done with most scanners. The term raw to me I associate more with the current file format of DSLR's.. which is a totally different file format in function.. The tiff format , which I think very highly of, is technically loss less in it's initial capture level so the..scan is loss less. But as soon as you start modifying a tiff whether it's 8 or 16 bit you start the process of acquiring some form of loss. The reason is that the file is now a mathematical interpretation of color.. When the scanner see's it it's still rgb not math yet... Anyway if you make some adjustments to the initial capture to get you closer to your final intent the tiff you then get is still loss less initially so your closer to where you want to go.. I am not the greatest at vocalizing things I apologize for that. Paul is so great at it.. :-).. 

    Ok regarding scanning .. depending upon what I'm up to I often scan a B&W negs in color.. this is what's up with that .. In B&W we have basically 255 steps.. white is 0 and black is 255.. When you scan in color you basically have 3 sets of 255 steps each set see's the B&W differently so when were making significant adjustments it helps us hold the final intent closer and the technology of going from color to B&W is about the best it's ever been today. Just sayin...

    Ok masks, I am in total agreement with Paul.. masks are literally awesome and often a real PIA to make but well worth the effort.. Their are many ways to make masks. I typically like using a channel mask that I make.. maybe one of my favorites is as follows.. I copy the whole image into a new channel.. Selecting that channel I then go into filters and use find edges.. This basically turns the image into sort of a line drawing.. now using levels I adjust it to retain what I want ..typically the left slider moves way over to the right.. and the right slider will move closer to the left..  their is one more step .. but first if you want several masks that will affect areas of the image differently make another copy of that channel for use later.. The next step is to look at the mask and erase anything you don't want it to affect.. or add in what's missing.. Ok now I use Gaussin blur on the channel maybe 2 to 4 pixels to affect a blend when I use the mask to help eliminate pixelation at the edges.. Then it simply a matter of loading the mask but make sure to select inverse so it works properly.. This is probably my favorite masking method as it so fast to get their and it easy to modify it to achieve different results in different areas of the image.. You can even make an action to build it.. still allowing for your making adjustments in the process of making it. Their are a few other tricks that can be tied to masks to help when the detail starts really getting small that you want to work with but hopefully you get the concept of the mask I like..

    jimbo



        ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: michael3442@yahoo.com [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
      To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
      Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 4:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


        
      Thanks again, Jimbo. The concept behind "raw scan" is that scanning can be either a one or two step process. As a one step process you scan the image and save the file to disk without any processing at the hardware/scanner level (resembling a RAW capture). The idea is that PS is just as capable, if not more-so, than the scanner's software to render the file into a suitable image. As a two step process, first the image is scanned and then, due to choices made when setting up the scanning software, the file is processed in the scanner; then it's saved to disk. From here the file can be further processed in PS, LR, and so on. 

      I've done a fair amount of experimentation with these two methods and do not find any advantage to the two step process over the one step. With the one step method I can be certain I'm getting everything the image has to offer without the intervention by the scanner's software. Raw scanned images/negs show up as dark images in PS and that may be seen as a disadvantage; however, that does not reflect on the quality of the file. (I'm not an authority on this method; I've just read a bit and have experimented a bit. If I'm proven to be misguided, then I'll change my ways.)

      As for the image(s) in this series (NE Minnesota landscapes in winter), I only shoot when it's completely overcast, outside, thus providing very low contrast. It also may be snowing as can be observed in the present image. With these images, what I "see" eventually turns up as the final print and may be different from what the film/sensor records, but that's the way it always is; the tools are part of the process at arriving at a final image ready for viewing. I'm not trying to be true to the film/sensor; I'm trying to be true to my experience of nature. These images aren't for everyone, but a surprising number of folks find they strike a fairly deep cord. I'll post a couple of additional images from this series that I've recently completed; they'll be up sometime this evening (fri.).

      As for equipment, I scan with an Epson 4870 using Epson Scan, process with PS CS5, and print with an Epson r2400 (larger prints will eventually have to be sent out).

      Michael

      No virus found in this message.


      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7918 - Release Date: 07/25/14






  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7924 - Release Date: 07/26/14

Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by michael3442@...

Paul, great info. thanks for taking the time to share your expertise. I've already printed it out knowing I'll be referring to it many times before it sinks in. Going forward, you may hear from me again for a little clarification, but I'll try not to bother you too much. A few years ago my wife and I stopped by the co-op gallery you participate in. You weren't there, but it was great to see your work in person, really nice images and prints; quite an achievement.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by Elliot Puritz

For those of us who are new to digital photography, and thus learning how to use PS and other editing programs, the information about masking is both interesting and informative.

 

Jimbo and others using masks:  Are your masking instructions and algorithms applicable to black and white files as well as color files?  Some of us are using the Leica Monochrome and hence do not have the color information that you can use in your masks. In addition, others might be "capturing" their files in black and white mode.

 

Thanks.

 

Elliot
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

 

  

Jimbo, many thanks for that. I'll be printing out that masking info. 'cause I'm sure I'll be reading it over and over. If you get any further ideas on how to deal with the tree tips, please post them; I've really got to get this tree tips issue nailed down once and for all.

Do you have a website where one can take a look at your work? I've read you posts for years but haven't a clue as to what interests you photographically. Also, what part of Montana do you live in?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by mrjimbo2

As far as tree tips and making masks.. Their are many tricks to making selection masks to capture finer detail.. Here's one for you.. Before you put any gaussin blur on the mask duplicate the entire file.. now interpolate the entire file up to say 4 time size.. Adjust the image to gain more contrast doesn't matter what it looks like but don't go too nuts.. Make a couple of copies of the mask as needed on it's own channel..Turn the mask back into a selection and at this point you can copy portions of , expand , contract the selection & go back to a mask and paint or erase... When you got it where your happy with it .. Down size the whole works back down to the original size and drag that channel to a new channel in your original document then apply some gaussin blur to it .. This work great for hair and small stuff that is hard to mask.. 

No website at present  Pulled it down at the end of last year when I shut the business down.. I'm was a shooter that mostly did wildlife, scenic, western history, Indians , cowboys rodeos an da lot of product in the studio... Plus we did fine art scans and repro for artists .. stuff like that.. I still occasionally shoot my 8x10 but mostly DSLR today.. I had some health issues show up this year that I'll be dealing with looks like or it'll deal with me.. But I'd like to get a personal site up as I want to keep shooting as long as I'm able..  I'm in Paradise Valley between Livingston and Gardiner.. about 30 miles north of the Park..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: michael3442@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    
  Jimbo, many thanks for that. I'll be printing out that masking info. 'cause I'm sure I'll be reading it over and over. If you get any further ideas on how to deal with the tree tips, please post them; I've really got to get this tree tips issue nailed down once and for all.

  Do you have a website where one can take a look at your work? I've read you posts for years but haven't a clue as to what interests you photographically. Also, what part of Montana do you live in?

  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7924 - Release Date: 07/26/14

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by mrjimbo2

Elliot, In theory "much" of it should.... but in function you don't have the ability to make image adjustment or selections using color.. So you just will have to work with in that box.. The mask I described ...using the find edges filter works really well with both B&W and color images. Obviously you can select a shade of gray in a B&W image but in most B&W images that gets confusing and doesn't work well. 

So in your case you'll have fewer options to work with but that's ok as you made choice to lock in the box with a Strictly B&W camera.. that was your choice.. (wish I had one..:-)..) 

For those that have the option of going B&W or color in their process.. I'd honestly suggest doing some images both ways... On images that theirs a clear advantage using color to help with adjustments or creating masks it'll quickly show up.. I use color scans or files way more then a B&W scans these days as the conversion possibilities are almost endless..

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: 'Elliot Puritz' drpuritz@... [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:51 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?


    

  For those of us who are new to digital photography, and thus learning how to use PS and other editing programs, the information about masking is both interesting and informative.



  Jimbo and others using masks:  Are your masking instructions and algorithms applicable to black and white files as well as color files?  Some of us are using the Leica Monochrome and hence do not have the color information that you can use in your masks. In addition, others might be "capturing" their files in black and white mode.



  Thanks.



  Elliot



  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m] 
  Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:16 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Workflow assistance?



    

  Jimbo, many thanks for that. I'll be printing out that masking info. 'cause I'm sure I'll be reading it over and over. If you get any further ideas on how to deal with the tree tips, please post them; I've really got to get this tree tips issue nailed down once and for all.

  Do you have a website where one can take a look at your work? I've read you posts for years but haven't a clue as to what interests you photographically. Also, what part of Montana do you live in?



  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7924 - Release Date: 07/26/14

Re: Workflow assistance?

2014-07-26 by michael3442@...

I've now cleaned up the files I had uploaded to Dropbox so all but one (.psd format with layers included) will open in preview; they all download and open in PS. In addition I uploaded two additional completed images:

- Fallen Tree
- Pike Island Bush

Thanks for looking. If anyone has any further ideas on how to efficiently separate the tree tips from the background (sky) please post your thoughts. All comments are appreciated.

Michael

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