Digital BW, The Print

> Barry wrote


> After trying to resolve my problems with the Jon Cone inks with the 
> very poor technical support from Inkjet Mall, (they told me my very 
> expensive Jon Cone inks were no good and to purchase a new set


Can you share a little bit of what the ink problem was - -
and why the inks were "no good"...?

And if the inks were no good = = why would they not GIVE you
some new ink....

I am having some problems as well.

Thanks
Bob Obenland

Folks,

Maybe I am missing something but it appears that the problems associated with the Piezography ink set is becoming epidemic in magnitude. I think that IJM still claims there are only 20 or 30 people that are very vocal and having problems. Perhaps Martin can start a poll in the files section asking for comments about problematic Piezo inks and negative experiences. That way we can begin to see the magnitude of what is occurring.  Personally, over the past year or two I spent thousands of dollars on Piezo inks and flushed or wasted a huge percentage due to problems.

If my hunch is correct, there may be hundreds of thousands of dollars being flushed away due to a defective product.  The only way to find out is with a poll.

At least there should be a warning for unsuspecting new photographers wanting to try this product.
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Obenland 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 6:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


  > Barry wrote


  > After trying to resolve my problems with the Jon Cone inks with the 
  > very poor technical support from Inkjet Mall, (they told me my very 
  > expensive Jon Cone inks were no good and to purchase a new set


  Can you share a little bit of what the ink problem was - -
  and why the inks were "no good"...?

  And if the inks were no good = = why would they not GIVE you
  some new ink....

  I am having some problems as well.

  Thanks
  Bob Obenland




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bob and Mike, 
I called Inkjet Mall and spoke to them about color cast in my prints 
and a software problem. The software problem went away after I paid 
$50 to upgrade the software. The ink problem stayed! They told me 
that the inks were probally old and that "old" inks should not be 
used. They made no offer to even replace what was remaining in my 4 
oz bottles. I then told them that I would not purchase more cone 
inks and that I intended to purchase from CIS. I had hoped for some 
kind of response, there was none. Surely if the inks have a "Self 
Life" then there should be a "Use by date" on the cart etc. In my 
case the ink was about a year old. 
The ink that I use in my color 1270 is about the same age with no 
problems. 
I jsut got the impression that Inkjet Mall just was not that 
interested in helping me.
I couldn't be more delighted with the MIS FS Neutral inks. I only 
wish that they sold Artistic Skills by the bottle as well, mine 
definately needs improvement. 
Barry


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" 
<bobenland@m...> wrote:
> > Barry wrote
> 
> 
> > After trying to resolve my problems with the Jon Cone inks with 
the 
> > very poor technical support from Inkjet Mall, (they told me my 
very 

> > expensive Jon Cone inks were no good and to purchase a new set
> 
> 
> Can you share a little bit of what the ink problem was - -
> and why the inks were "no good"...?
> 
> And if the inks were no good = = why would they not GIVE you
> some new ink....
> 
> I am having some problems as well.
> 
> Thanks
> Bob Obenland

> If my hunch is correct, there may be hundreds of thousands of 
> dollars being flushed away due to a defective product.  The 
> only way to find out is with a poll.


I'm done with the pies inks.  Too many clogs and offensive green cast.
I am using MIS VM inks with the epson driver and am going to try MIS FS
with the piezo driver in another printer.  Add my name to the list.

Lawrence (a quiet but unsatisfied piezo ink user)
http://www.lwsphoto.com

Mike,

One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it is
obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a poll that
should allow for positive aswell as negative response.

Something like... all those delivery companies who put stickers on the back
of their vans saying "Am I driving badly? Call 555-xxxx".  Senior management
soon wanted to know why they only got complaints - when the answer was
simple - they only asked for complaints! In all fairness to Cone Editions,
you should allow people to report them likign the inks.

In fairness too, the poll should perhaps allow for reports on any other
quadtone ink - I guess that includes MIS (and all / most variants of them),
Lincoln Spectratone, Lyson Quads and SG, etc.

My concern generically with comparing inks in this fashion is that it is
difficult to do, as many of the people with alternate inks will have had
them for a lot shorter time than they may have had some inks for. We need a
poll of 1160 CIS users who primed their systems last June with xxxx ink, and
are still using the same bottles now :)

Just my 2p,

nij

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Kravit [mailto:michael.kravit@...]
> Sent: 18 March 2002 00:13
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Maybe I am missing something but it appears that the problems
> associated with the Piezography ink set is becoming epidemic in
> magnitude. I think that IJM still claims there are only 20 or 30
> people that are very vocal and having problems. Perhaps Martin
> can start a poll in the files section asking for comments about
> problematic Piezo inks and negative experiences. That way we can
> begin to see the magnitude of what is occurring.  Personally,
> over the past year or two I spent thousands of dollars on Piezo
> inks and flushed or wasted a huge percentage due to problems.
>
> If my hunch is correct, there may be hundreds of thousands of
> dollars being flushed away due to a defective product.  The only
> way to find out is with a poll.
>
> At least there should be a warning for unsuspecting new
> photographers wanting to try this product.
> Mike
>

Mike, Nij, Lawrence, All,

After following all of this for over a year it is very clear that there is a
vast difference in the experience with Piezo inks. Some people have had the
experience of it starting right up and never having a problem. Others have
experienced multiply and chronic problems from the start. Others have fallen
somewhere in between.

I think that these experiences are all real and we need to take this into
account. I do not know why the experience varies so much. I tend to doubt
that it is ink batch related as the people who have no problems have gone
through different batches over a period of time.

Perhaps the Piezo inks are less tolerant of printer-to-printer variations. I
believe that there are very real and serious issues with Piezo inks in terms
of clogging and I am disappointed in Conetech's failure to address them.
This is especially true in light of MIS's issuing of two ink sets that are
compatible with the Piezo driver within a relatively short time and with
seemingly little difficulty.

There is a poll running as to which ink sets are used by members of this
group and Piezo is the most popular, closely followed by MIS VM.

I agree with Nij and I really have no interest in starting a poll of how
many people had good or bad experiences with Piezo. I don't know if it would
serve any purpose at this point. Anyone who finds their way to this list or
the Piezo list before buying can draw their own conclusions. Most people
will find these lists only after they have bought. Conetech is actively
advertising and MIS is not. Piezo has a lot of brand recognition and MIS
does not. I think that most people's initial experience with "quad" inks
will be with Piezo inks for the foreseeable future.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> Folks,
>
> Maybe I am missing something but it appears that the problems associated
with the Piezography ink set is becoming epidemic in magnitude. I think that
IJM still claims there are only 20 or 30 people that are very vocal and
having problems. Perhaps Martin can start a poll in the files section asking
for comments about problematic Piezo inks and negative experiences. That way
we can begin to see the magnitude of what is occurring.  Personally, over
the past year or two I spent thousands of dollars on Piezo inks and flushed
or wasted a huge percentage due to problems.
>
> If my hunch is correct, there may be hundreds of thousands of dollars
being flushed away due to a defective product.  The only way to find out is
with a poll.
>
> At least there should be a warning for unsuspecting new photographers
wanting to try this product.
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Bob Obenland
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 6:49 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
>   > Barry wrote
>
>
>   > After trying to resolve my problems with the Jon Cone inks with the
>   > very poor technical support from Inkjet Mall, (they told me my very
>   > expensive Jon Cone inks were no good and to purchase a new set
>
>
>   Can you share a little bit of what the ink problem was - -
>   and why the inks were "no good"...?
>
>   And if the inks were no good = = why would they not GIVE you
>   some new ink....
>
>   I am having some problems as well.
>
>   Thanks
>   Bob Obenland
>
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

The Piezo inks have peaked. Long live MIS

Jerry

Bet I went through 6-7 hundred dollars in inks and papers to get a precious few piezo prints that looked nice.



Lawrence Smith wrote:

> > If my hunch is correct, there may be hundreds of thousands of
> > dollars being flushed away due to a defective product.  The
> > only way to find out is with a poll.
>
> I'm done with the pies inks.  Too many clogs and offensive green cast.
> I am using MIS VM inks with the epson driver and am going to try MIS FS
> with the piezo driver in another printer.  Add my name to the list.
>
> Lawrence (a quiet but unsatisfied piezo ink user)
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Mike, Nij, Lawrence, All,
> 
> After following all of this for over a year it is very clear that 
there is a
> vast difference in the experience with Piezo inks. Some people have 
had the
> experience of it starting right up and never having a problem. 
Others have
> experienced multiply and chronic problems from the start. Others 
have fallen
> somewhere in between.
> 
> I think that these experiences are all real and we need to take this 
into
> account. I do not know why the experience varies so much. I tend to 
doubt
> that it is ink batch related as the people who have no problems have 
gone
> through different batches over a period of time.
> 
> Perhaps the Piezo inks are less tolerant of printer-to-printer 
variations. 

No that is not what I would test for first. I would track the obvious 
variable.

Time. Or rather how much ink is used over time. If you want to take a 
survey, simply ask three questions:
1) inkset used
2) positive or negative rating (say 0 to 10). Nij is quite right about 
 a neutral scale; one must be able to both praise or condemn or the 
data will be meaningless.
3) How much ink is used per month say. Or word it like this: how many 
days a month is your printer used? Or, how many hours per day? Or you 
can phrase it thus: How many 8x 10 equivilents / month? The best would 
be to get BOTH a mean value of ink usage/ printer on time /month AND a 
standard deviation of that usage.

Standard deviation is a measure of variability of the data, if you 
don't know. For example if I turn my printer on every day and print 
exactly one 8 x 10 only, and do a repeat exactly the same every day 
for a month, my S.D. is nil. If however, I print out forty 8x10 one 
day, three the next day, and then none for three weeks, I will have a 
high S.D.

I propose an hypothesis that with Piezo ink, and probably with others 
to some extent, low means and high S.D. will correlate with more 
negative ratings. This condition is indictive of inks sitting around 
unused for awhile, and seeing sporadic usage. I would venture that 
folks printing every day mass quantities of piezo prints would have 
less problems. Therefore with sporadic use, the ink is inclined to 
break down, clog the printhead more, perhaps sludge up a CIS, and 
other things we have all come to know and love.<g>

In the past, I limited myself to honing a positive definition of DSS 
(density shift syndrome) only. It is not my place I felt to pass 
judgement on how the problem should be tested, resolved, or even to 
pass judgement on any inkset. Since I gather from this thread that no 
answer has been forthcoming, I now merely suggest an hypothesis and an 
approach that might prove interesting.
Jim H.



> > Maybe I am missing something but it appears that the problems 
associated
> with the Piezography ink set is becoming epidemic in magnitude. I 
think that
> IJM still claims there are only 20 or 30 people that are very vocal 
and
> having problems. Perhaps Martin can start a poll in the files 
section asking
> for comments about problematic Piezo inks and negative experiences. 
That way
> we can begin to see the magnitude of what is occurring.

---
I am surprised by the response you got from IJM. I had a problem a 
couple og months ago and no queations asked they sent me a new set of 
ink that is working just fine. I also noticed that there is a use by 
date on them

Vinny



 In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "flyfishingusa2002" 
<tflyfish@c...> wrote:
> Hi Bob and Mike, 
> I called Inkjet Mall and spoke to them about color cast in my 
prints 

> and a software problem. The software problem went away after I paid 
> $50 to upgrade the software. The ink problem stayed! They told me 
> that the inks were probally old and that "old" inks should not be 
> used. They made no offer to even replace what was remaining in my 4 
> oz bottles. I then told them that I would not purchase more cone 
> inks and that I intended to purchase from CIS. I had hoped for some 
> kind of response, there was none. Surely if the inks have a "Self 
> Life" then there should be a "Use by date" on the cart etc. In my 
> case the ink was about a year old. 
> The ink that I use in my color 1270 is about the same age with no 
> problems. 
> I jsut got the impression that Inkjet Mall just was not that 
> interested in helping me.
> I couldn't be more delighted with the MIS FS Neutral inks. I only 
> wish that they sold Artistic Skills by the bottle as well, mine 
> definately needs improvement. 
> Barry
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bob Obenland" 
> <bobenland@m...> wrote:
> > > Barry wrote
> > 
> > 
> > > After trying to resolve my problems with the Jon Cone inks with 
> the 
> > > very poor technical support from Inkjet Mall, (they told me my 
> very 
> > > expensive Jon Cone inks were no good and to purchase a new set
> > 
> > 
> > Can you share a little bit of what the ink problem was - -
> > and why the inks were "no good"...?
> > 
> > And if the inks were no good = = why would they not GIVE you
> > some new ink....
> > 
> > I am having some problems as well.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Bob Obenland

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "vinyo88" <orlandovl@h...> 
wrote:
> ---
> I am surprised by the response you got from IJM. I had a problem a 
> couple og months ago and no queations asked they sent me a new set 
of 
> ink that is working just fine. I also noticed that there is a use by 
> date on them
> 
> Vinny
> 

I don't know how they date them now, but I used to get in Piezo 
bottles with exp dates two years away.

Just as a suggestion, I would try to run through the inks within one 
year at most. Six months better. I would give the same suggestion for 
MIS inks too. This is usually not hard for most people to do, even 
infrequent printers. I would also replace CIS carts after at most one 
year. My idea only, not backed up by Cone or MIS.
Jim H.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:15 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> Mike,
>
> One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it is
> obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a poll
that
> should allow for positive aswell as negative response.

How right you are Mr Nij and in fact I would go much further than you
because I am no gentleman.
The whole idea of a poll specificially designed to elicit negative values is
totally prattish.

If you are trying to discover the extent of a products level of customer
dissatisfaction then you circulate the whole damm customer list and in that
way you find out the percentages and at the end of the day that's all that
matters.

I do not see the point in having a list like this and then use it as a forum
for those of a decidely non positive disposition. No body learns anything
about anything except about the biasof those who are dissatisfied with
something.

There has been considerable comment by those who should know better on the
issue of the favron, with very pronounced views of a wholly negative nature
when in fact no one has seen, touched, or used the device and therefore are
in no position to offer any kind of objective analysis on the issue, unless
that is you are a member of the fiction writers club.

Here, Here to the self-described "Non-Gentleman!"

Well put Dickbo!

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dickbo 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 2:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:15 AM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


  > Mike,
  >
  > One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it is
  > obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a poll
  that
  > should allow for positive aswell as negative response.

  How right you are Mr Nij and in fact I would go much further than you
  because I am no gentleman.
  The whole idea of a poll specificially designed to elicit negative values is
  totally prattish.

  If you are trying to discover the extent of a products level of customer
  dissatisfaction then you circulate the whole damm customer list and in that
  way you find out the percentages and at the end of the day that's all that
  matters.

  I do not see the point in having a list like this and then use it as a forum
  for those of a decidely non positive disposition. No body learns anything
  about anything except about the biasof those who are dissatisfied with
  something.

  There has been considerable comment by those who should know better on the
  issue of the favron, with very pronounced views of a wholly negative nature
  when in fact no one has seen, touched, or used the device and therefore are
  in no position to offer any kind of objective analysis on the issue, unless
  that is you are a member of the fiction writers club.




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well....perhaps that should be "Hear,  Hear"  instead.....but you know what I mean... (wink)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steadman Uhlich 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 8:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


  Here, Here to the self-described "Non-Gentleman!"

  Well put Dickbo!

  Steadman


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Dickbo 
    To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
    Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 2:47 AM
    Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!



    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
    To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
    Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:15 AM
    Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


    > Mike,
    >
    > One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it is
    > obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a poll
    that
    > should allow for positive aswell as negative response.

    How right you are Mr Nij and in fact I would go much further than you
    because I am no gentleman.
    The whole idea of a poll specificially designed to elicit negative values is
    totally prattish.

    If you are trying to discover the extent of a products level of customer
    dissatisfaction then you circulate the whole damm customer list and in that
    way you find out the percentages and at the end of the day that's all that
    matters.

    I do not see the point in having a list like this and then use it as a forum
    for those of a decidely non positive disposition. No body learns anything
    about anything except about the biasof those who are dissatisfied with
    something.

    There has been considerable comment by those who should know better on the
    issue of the favron, with very pronounced views of a wholly negative nature
    when in fact no one has seen, touched, or used the device and therefore are
    in no position to offer any kind of objective analysis on the issue, unless
    that is you are a member of the fiction writers club.




          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
                ADVERTISEMENT
               
         
         

    Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

    Please follow these basic guidelines:
    - Include your full name with your message.
    - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
    - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
    - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
    - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
    - Complete your Yahoo profile.
    - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
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  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "jimhayes361" <jimhayes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > Mike, Nij, Lawrence, All,
> >

(snip)

>
> No that is not what I would test for first. I would track the obvious
> variable.
>
> Time. Or rather how much ink is used over time. If you want to take a
> survey, simply ask three questions:
> 1) inkset used
> 2) positive or negative rating (say 0 to 10). Nij is quite right about
>  a neutral scale; one must be able to both praise or condemn or the
> data will be meaningless.
> 3) How much ink is used per month say. Or word it like this: how many
> days a month is your printer used? Or, how many hours per day? Or you
> can phrase it thus: How many 8x 10 equivilents / month? The best would
> be to get BOTH a mean value of ink usage/ printer on time /month AND a
> standard deviation of that usage.
>
> Standard deviation is a measure of variability of the data, if you
> don't know. For example if I turn my printer on every day and print
> exactly one 8 x 10 only, and do a repeat exactly the same every day
> for a month, my S.D. is nil. If however, I print out forty 8x10 one
> day, three the next day, and then none for three weeks, I will have a
> high S.D.

Jim,

That would be a good way to set up a poll. In the end, the more I thought
about it, the people who should be running it are over at Conetech. If they
really wanted to see how wide spread and serious the problem(s) is/are they
could simply survey their customers or use the Poll section of the Piezo
list. The Yahoo Poll function is rather limited though. At this point I am
more aggravated by the apparent lack of concern or any steps to correct
things, but I really don't know. It is possible that they have made changes
and that over the whole customer base the situation is better than it was. I
haven't heard anything but I really haven't been listening either.

>
> I propose an hypothesis that with Piezo ink, and probably with others
> to some extent, low means and high S.D. will correlate with more
> negative ratings. This condition is indictive of inks sitting around
> unused for awhile, and seeing sporadic usage. I would venture that
> folks printing every day mass quantities of piezo prints would have
> less problems. Therefore with sporadic use, the ink is inclined to
> break down, clog the printhead more, perhaps sludge up a CIS, and
> other things we have all come to know and love.<g>

I fall into the sporadic user catigory. Printing somewhat infrequently and
then printing until it smokes. I would have to say the the rate of clogs in
terms of frequency and severity was many times worse with the Piezo on my
1200 than with MIS inks on my 1280. Of course this may be printer related.

Martin
>
> In the past, I limited myself to honing a positive definition of DSS
> (density shift syndrome) only. It is not my place I felt to pass
> judgement on how the problem should be tested, resolved, or even to
> pass judgement on any inkset. Since I gather from this thread that no
> answer has been forthcoming, I now merely suggest an hypothesis and an
> approach that might prove interesting.
> Jim H.
>
>
(snip)

How wrong you are!

Many of us have spent thousands of dollars for inks that are advertised to
performa certain way and be a certain product. They are NOT and that is
misleading and possibly deceptive in my book. Do you want to reimburse me
for the monies I have lost....No, I didn't think so.

All we want to do is publicly help to keep others from making the same
mistakes that many of us have. If you don't agree, that is fine, but unless
you are in the same boat and have lost a lot of hard earned money on a
crappy product I suggest you think twice about not being a gentleman.

BTW, what in the world does "Prattish" mean?  What is a Favron? Never ran
accross these words before.

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dickbo" <Dickbo@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:15 AM
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
> > Mike,
> >
> > One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it is
> > obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a poll
> that
> > should allow for positive aswell as negative response.
>
> How right you are Mr Nij and in fact I would go much further than you
> because I am no gentleman.
> The whole idea of a poll specificially designed to elicit negative values
is
> totally prattish.
>
> If you are trying to discover the extent of a products level of customer
> dissatisfaction then you circulate the whole damm customer list and in
that
> way you find out the percentages and at the end of the day that's all that
> matters.
>
> I do not see the point in having a list like this and then use it as a
forum
> for those of a decidely non positive disposition. No body learns anything
> about anything except about the biasof those who are dissatisfied with
> something.
>
> There has been considerable comment by those who should know better on the
> issue of the favron, with very pronounced views of a wholly negative
nature
> when in fact no one has seen, touched, or used the device and therefore
are
> in no position to offer any kind of objective analysis on the issue,
unless
> that is you are a member of the fiction writers club.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Whats a Dickbo?

-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> Well....perhaps that should be "Hear,  Hear"  instead.....but you know
what I mean... (wink)
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Steadman Uhlich
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 8:38 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
>   Here, Here to the self-described "Non-Gentleman!"
>
>   Well put Dickbo!
>
>   Steadman
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Dickbo
>     To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 2:47 AM
>     Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: "Nij" <nigel@...>
>     To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>     Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 2:15 AM
>     Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!
>
>
>     > Mike,
>     >
>     > One thought on this... if Martin or Antonis wish to start a poll, it
is
>     > obviously their perogative... but in all fairness is ought to be a
poll
>     that
>     > should allow for positive aswell as negative response.
>
>     How right you are Mr Nij and in fact I would go much further than you
>     because I am no gentleman.
>     The whole idea of a poll specificially designed to elicit negative
values is
>     totally prattish.
>
>     If you are trying to discover the extent of a products level of
customer
>     dissatisfaction then you circulate the whole damm customer list and in
that
>     way you find out the percentages and at the end of the day that's all
that
>     matters.
>
>     I do not see the point in having a list like this and then use it as a
forum
>     for those of a decidely non positive disposition. No body learns
anything
>     about anything except about the biasof those who are dissatisfied with
>     something.
>
>     There has been considerable comment by those who should know better on
the
>     issue of the favron, with very pronounced views of a wholly negative
nature
>     when in fact no one has seen, touched, or used the device and
therefore are
>     in no position to offer any kind of objective analysis on the issue,
unless
>     that is you are a member of the fiction writers club.
>
>
>
>
>           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>                 ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>     Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>     Please follow these basic guidelines:
>     - Include your full name with your message.
>     - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>     - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>     - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>     - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>     - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>     - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hee, hee.

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I had even checked the Oxford English
Dictionary with no sign of Mr. Dickbone's inane adjective. ;-)

Thanks,
Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Marquis-Kyle" <petermk@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> Michael Kravit, responding to Dickbo, asked
>
> > BTW, what in the world does "Prattish" mean?  What is a Favron? Never
ran
> > accross these words before.
>
> I think I can help here. 'Prattish' is probably coined from 'prat' -- "In
> British English, if you describe someone as a prat, you are saying in an
unkind
> way that you think that they are very stupid or foolish; an informal
word."
> [Collins Cobuild English Dictionary, 1995]
>
> To use an older idiom, Dickbo is the pot calling the kettle black.
>
> As to Favron, I think he means Foveon.
>
> This Dickbo character reminds me of the Dicky (Richard Corbett) who used
to hang
> around the filmscanners mailing list. Did they both go to the same English
> finishing school?
>
> Peter Marquis-Kyle
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Michael Kravit, responding to Dickbo, asked

> BTW, what in the world does "Prattish" mean?  What is a Favron? Never ran
> accross these words before.

I think I can help here. 'Prattish' is probably coined from 'prat' -- "In
British English, if you describe someone as a prat, you are saying in an unkind
way that you think that they are very stupid or foolish; an informal word."
[Collins Cobuild English Dictionary, 1995]

To use an older idiom, Dickbo is the pot calling the kettle black.

As to Favron, I think he means Foveon.

This Dickbo character reminds me of the Dicky (Richard Corbett) who used to hang
around the filmscanners mailing list. Did they both go to the same English
finishing school?

Peter Marquis-Kyle

Oops,

Must have been a typo, what I meant was "Dickbo".

Sorry, I don't know what came over my typing skills. ;-)

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carolyn Frayn" <carolyn@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] New MIS FS Neutral Inks are GREAT!


> I have heard and read the word "prattish" often. I have not heard the word
> "dickbone" since the sixth grade.
>
> Carolyn
>
>
>
> >
> > To use an older idiom, Dickbo is the pot calling the kettle black.
> >
> > As to Favron, I think he means Foveon.
> >
> > This Dickbo character reminds me of the Dicky (Richard Corbett) who used
to
> > hang
> > around the filmscanners mailing list. Did they both go to the same
English
> > finishing school?
> >
> > Peter Marquis-Kyle
>
>
>
> > Hee, hee.
> >
> > Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I had even checked the Oxford English
> > Dictionary with no sign of Mr. Dickbone's inane adjective. ;-)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> 

> Jim,
> 
> That would be a good way to set up a poll. In the end, the more I 
thought
> about it, the people who should be running it are over at Conetech. 
If they
> really wanted to see how wide spread and serious the problem(s) 
is/are they
> could simply survey their customers or use the Poll section of the 
Piezo
> list. The Yahoo Poll function is rather limited though. At this 
point I am
> more aggravated by the apparent lack of concern or any steps to 
correct
> things, but I really don't know.

Throughout the whole DSS controversy, I tried to carefully limit 
myself to only defining the symptoms of the problem. There were some 
exchanges with Cone as I recall, and with the hiring of a part time 
retired ink chemist, Jon assured us that the problem was being 
investigated.

This was just great with me. I worked in R&D for HP for over 12 years, 
and part of the time was spent setting up and running tests to resolve 
complicated electrical connectivity issues. I learned to let the other 
guy run his experiments his way, and in turn I had freedom to plan my 
own. I didn't get on the other guy's turff, I didn't know as much, and 
it wasn't my call.

I did have the need for heavy consultation with our resident 
statistician for these tests. And I'd seek advice from my peers when I 
needed it. But it was my own responsibility to deliver the results.


 It is possible that they have made 
changes
> and that over the whole customer base the situation is better than 
it was. I
> haven't heard anything but I really haven't been listening either.

I haven't been on the Piezo list for awhile, I guess they haven't been 
forthcoming with any full or partial answers? That is why I proposed 
my own hypothesis and a way to test it. It would have to be thought 
out a bit more. But at least I feel it is a reasonable approach to 
take in an otherwise informational vacuum (if that is indeed the 
case).
Jim H.

I have heard and read the word "prattish" often. I have not heard the word
"dickbone" since the sixth grade.

Carolyn

> 
> To use an older idiom, Dickbo is the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> As to Favron, I think he means Foveon.
> 
> This Dickbo character reminds me of the Dicky (Richard Corbett) who used to
> hang
> around the filmscanners mailing list. Did they both go to the same English
> finishing school?
> 
> Peter Marquis-Kyle



> Hee, hee.
> 
> Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I had even checked the Oxford English
> Dictionary with no sign of Mr. Dickbone's inane adjective. ;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike