Digital BW, The Print

Charles,

I have noted as the list of posts has grown that some people seem to have difficulties with workflows that people in general use without problems. Most people seem to report good results with the RGB curves and the VM inks but a few seem to have no luck at all. Same situation with Piezo inks. Some people print away with never a glitch and others are tearing their hair out.

I have to conclude that there is enough printer-to-printer variation to cause problems. I wish I had a better answer for you. If you like, contact me off list and we can arrange to exchange some step wedges to see if a comparison is of any help. I am on Windows 2000 and PS6 (soon to be PS7) so there is a difference in our systems.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: charles_bandes 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 5:31 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] The continuing saga of my 1280/CIS/VM problems - please help!


  Hi Everyone -

  My problem is that with every curve set I get a weird inversion in my
  stepwedge around the 70% point, this causes images to have a solarized
  look, as 70% grey prints _darker_ than 85%, so there's a weird light
  point in what should be shadow areas. (My config - 1280, nomorecarts
  CIS, MIS VM ink in 4 oz bottles, mac OSX using photoshop7 (but have
  checked with os9 and PS6, same results)) 

  So far I've tried all the Roark and Boley curves with minimal success,
  and I'm getting really frustrated. Have spoken with Bob at MIS who
  swears it isn't an ink problem (though he's investigating right now)
  but I'm also pretty sure it isn't a printer or workflow problem since
  I was getting great prints before using VM carts. Purge patterns look
  pretty much normal, I am _certain_ that I have the ink positions
  correct, certain that I am printing on the right side of the paper,
  and certain that I am using the same settings that gave me good
  results with MIS VM carts before switching to CIS. I'm pretty sure
  that I can rule out software issues, as my system hasn't changed since
  I was printing with carts.

  There was a message from a guy named Kevin in response to my first
  plea saying that he was having similar problems with an MIS CFS system
  and the VM ink - I'm guessing that since he bought the ink around the
  same time I did, and since he's using a different delivery system,
  maybe it really _is_ the ink. That would sure make life easier if it
  were true. Beyond that - does anyone have any thoughts of what might
  be going on?


  --Charley

  cbandes@...



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin Wesley wrote:

>   I am on Windows 2000 and PS6 (soon to be PS7) so there is a 
> difference in our systems.
>
Any particular reason you are going to PS7 now?  On a Mac I could 
understand, I'd want a Carbonized version.. But without 16 bit layers, 
on a Win2k box I'm going to wait  for 16 bit layers before I make the jump..

The reinstallation of all the filters, everytime I upgrade, alone, is 
not worth the effort for the minor additional features in PS7 over PS 6..


[Keith]
 
 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My PS7 upgrade arrived today, I've been playing with it for hours.

(And it's way past my bedtime, but anyway)

Things I've noticed so far:

The healing brush really IS that good. (It makes retouching almost fun
- and makes ICE almost seem unnecessary. (Um, I am prone to hyperbole ;) )

There's an "auto-color" tool which provides pretty good one-step color
correction

The file browser is enormously helpful

Some interesting new blending modes

Slightly improved interface.

I'm told that ImageReady is massively improved, but having never used
it in the past, I wouldn't know where to look.

For me, the healing brush and auto-color make a huge difference in my
productivity already. Not everyone will find them as useful as I do tho.

Hi Charles,

I have the very same setup as you do. I'm using a Mac with the 
1280 and nomorecarts, VM inks.

When printing with Paul's MW curve, I also had the identical 
stepwedge issue with the gray "inversion". The problem was 
less noticed with the neutral and cool curve.

After many test wedge prints and adjustments to the RGB curve 
channel, I lessened the flatness somewhat. Never to the level I 
wanted but close.

Now, I've just tried Tyler's new curves (on a Mac) and side by 
side prints (old curves and Tyler's plat or crv 09) show that the 
flat spot is gone. They look better and print beautifully. And I'm 
using them on a Mac.

Anyway, not a real solution for you here, I guess but it is 
interesting that two identical setups produce the very same 
wedge look.

Jeff Korte


> 
>   Hi Everyone -
> 
>   My problem is that with every curve set I get a weird inversion 
in my
>   stepwedge around the 70% point, this causes images to 
have a solarized
>   look, as 70% grey prints _darker_ than 85%, so there's a 
weird light
>   point in what should be shadow areas. (My config - 1280, 
nomorecarts
>   CIS, MIS VM ink in 4 oz bottles, mac OSX using photoshop7 
(but have
>   checked with os9 and PS6, same results)) 
> 
>   So far I've tried all the Roark and Boley curves with minimal 
success,
>   and I'm getting really frustrated. Have spoken with Bob at MIS 
who
>   swears it isn't an ink problem (though he's investigating right 
now)
>   but I'm also pretty sure it isn't a printer or workflow problem 
since
>   I was getting great prints before using VM carts. Purge 
patterns look
>   pretty much normal, I am _certain_ that I have the ink 
positions
>   correct, certain that I am printing on the right side of the paper,
>   and certain that I am using the same settings that gave me 
good
>   results with MIS VM carts before switching to CIS. I'm pretty 
sure
>   that I can rule out software issues, as my system hasn't 
changed since
>   I was printing with carts.
> 
>   There was a message from a guy named Kevin in response 
to my first
>   plea saying that he was having similar problems with an MIS 
CFS system
>   and the VM ink - I'm guessing that since he bought the ink 
around the
>   same time I did, and since he's using a different delivery 
system,
>   maybe it really _is_ the ink. That would sure make life easier 
if it
>   were true. Beyond that - does anyone have any thoughts of 
what might
>   be going on?
> 
> 
>   --Charley
> 
>   cbandes@m...
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>    
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's very interesting Jeff, thank you.

My prints from Tyler's plat and crv9 are almost good - but the
"inversion" area around 80-60% is still present, just very very
flattened, so areas in those midtones don't "solarize" but they just
get sort of muddy and flat, without the separation that I should be
seeing. It's certainly a step up from the look I was getting from
Paul's curves, but still far from acceptable, and not what I invested
in this system for. 

But if you, Kevin, and I are all having similar results it starts to
make me wonder if something really is wrong with the inks.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@m...>
wrote:

> Hi Charles,
> 
> I have the very same setup as you do. I'm using a Mac with the 
> 1280 and nomorecarts, VM inks.
> 
> When printing with Paul's MW curve, I also had the identical 
> stepwedge issue with the gray "inversion". The problem was 
> less noticed with the neutral and cool curve.
> 
> After many test wedge prints and adjustments to the RGB curve 
> channel, I lessened the flatness somewhat. Never to the level I 
> wanted but close.
> 
> Now, I've just tried Tyler's new curves (on a Mac) and side by 
> side prints (old curves and Tyler's plat or crv 09) show that the 
> flat spot is gone. They look better and print beautifully. And I'm 
> using them on a Mac.
> 
> Anyway, not a real solution for you here, I guess but it is 
> interesting that two identical setups produce the very same 
> wedge look.
> 
> Jeff Korte

Charles, I'm afraid I'm not spending much time on the list any more, but since your problems are using a workflow I've been 
involved with I've watched your posts.
One comment. If truly, nothing at all has changed but the ink batch, and going from carts to CIS, I'd say the new problem has 
to do with one of those two elements. Nothing else makes sense, and that should narrow your troubleshooting 
considerably.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "charles_bandes" <byronbulb@y...> wrote:

> That's very interesting Jeff, thank you.
> 
> My prints from Tyler's plat and crv9 are almost good - but the
> "inversion" area around 80-60% is still present, just very very
> flattened, so areas in those midtones don't "solarize" but they just
> get sort of muddy and flat, without the separation that I should be
> seeing. It's certainly a step up from the look I was getting from
> Paul's curves, but still far from acceptable, and not what I invested
> in this system for. 
> 
> But if you, Kevin, and I are all having similar results it starts to
> make me wonder if something really is wrong with the inks.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ljkorte" <jeffkorte@m...>
> wrote:
> > Hi Charles,
> > 
> > I have the very same setup as you do. I'm using a Mac with the 
> > 1280 and nomorecarts, VM inks.
> > 
> > When printing with Paul's MW curve, I also had the identical 
> > stepwedge issue with the gray "inversion". The problem was 
> > less noticed with the neutral and cool curve.
> > 
> > After many test wedge prints and adjustments to the RGB curve 
> > channel, I lessened the flatness somewhat. Never to the level I 
> > wanted but close.
> > 
> > Now, I've just tried Tyler's new curves (on a Mac) and side by 
> > side prints (old curves and Tyler's plat or crv 09) show that the 
> > flat spot is gone. They look better and print beautifully. And I'm 
> > using them on a Mac.
> > 
> > Anyway, not a real solution for you here, I guess but it is 
> > interesting that two identical setups produce the very same 
> > wedge look.
> > 
> > Jeff Korte

tboleyyh wrote:

> Charles, I'm afraid I'm not spending much time on the list any more, 
> but since your problems are using a workflow I've been
> involved with I've watched your posts.
> One comment. If truly, nothing at all has changed but the ink batch, 
> and going from carts to CIS, I'd say the new problem has
> to do with one of those two elements.

I've been following this as well.. and until you reiterated that point, 
I had simply passed it of to an ink batch variation...

But, then Paul's comment on viscosity differences in the Canon's and 
EPSON's must have jogged something loose..

It could well be the CIS, but in a sense that we may have overlooked..

The viscosity and density of the inks we use is generally tailored for 
short-travel from chamber to printhead..  Adhesion as a factor in ink 
travel over such distances is relatively minimal...  BUT, remember that 
the pigment inks ARE suspensions not really solutions... Suspensions can 
do very different things in the course of a length of hose/tubing/pipe 
than they may over very short distances.. Under certain conditions of 
ratios of suspended matter to to carrier fluid, suspensions can exhibit 
non-Newtonian properties... (Ketchup -- you hit it and it liquefies and 
Silly Putty -- you hit it and it solidifies even to fracturing; are the 
common examples)  It is possible that one of two things may be happening...

1)    Within the confines of the CIS tubing,  one of the inks is 
exhibiting more pronounced non-Newtonian behavior than the other mixes.

2)    Simple adhesion to the CIS tubing, during transit, of either 
carrier or suspended particulate...

Both should be relatively simple to test for..

To test for #1:

a)    I would look for changes in density of specific test  patches over 
the course of a print that had been done AFTER letting the CIS and 
printer sit for some time..  You would likely see that problem test 
patch become more or less pronounced as printing moved forward.. (as the 
non-Newtonian effect would predominate as ink traveled more 
consistently)  or you might see a brief problem in that patch where 
those forces predominate momentarily.

b)    The final density of a mostly consumed bottle of ink will likely 
in such a case, be  found to vary significantly, and non-linearly, where 
compared to original pigment density (as a ratio), in other inks w/in 
the same set..  In other words, one ink will be more out of whack than 
the others when you get to the bottom of the bottle.

To test for #2:

a)    You may also find item  (b) above happening..

b)    You may well find that one of the lines when fast drained, not 
purged or flushed, will show a significant residue of adhered pigment 
that is out of line with the other inks..


If  #1 is found to be the case, a new carrier fluid may be the best solution

If #2 is the case, simply establishing differing pigment concentrations 
or curves for CIS transported inks (when compared to cartridge carried 
inks) may be the easy solution..

Just trying to think "outside the box" here..

[Keith]
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting thoughts Keith,

I'm pretty sure neither of these things is happening though. 

In the first case, problems sufaced immediately after installing the
CIS and new ink bottles, so it isn't a case of inks getting worse as
they settle. (Bottles now about 3/4 full, I've gone through a LOT of
ink and paper testing this - ouch.)

In the second case, tubing appears pretty much clean when it gets
emptied, I don't think too much adhesion is occurring. 

Right now I'm pinning my hopes on the possibility of a bad ink batch,
as I really don't want to have a defective CIS - but this should all
be resolved next week when new carts and new bulk bottles arrive from
MIS - if those don't solve the problem then it MUST be a CIS problem.

Thanks so much for everyone's continuing help, it's greatly appreciated.

-charley