Digital BW, The Print

I, for one, think it is a shame that a valuable contributor to this forum (Mike Kravit) feels a need to "back away" due to on-line or off-line communications via or regarding this forum. 

Mike has always been very helpful to me and others and while we may differ in opinions, occupations, methods, tastes, inks, software,  and geography....we are friends too (even though we have never met in person).  

A forum is a place for opinions.  Some we share, some we don't.  In the spirit of sharing lets try to keep the "below the belt" shots out of the forum.  

Respectfully, 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mkravit 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 8:15 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] A strike below the belt.


  Folks,

  Well I would like to than the person who called the Palm Beach 
  Photographic Center and complained that I have bad mouthed IJM and 
  George DeWolfe here on the list. I had to provide the director with 
  copies of all posts to prove that I did nothing of the sort.

  As the VP of the Center, I can not tolerate having anything done 
  that will place the facility in a tenuous position. So those people 
  that have been calling Jon Cone and others reporting back everything 
  that is said here are due a round of applause.

  Our centre rund workshops and programs for abused and at-risk 
  children as a not-for-profit organization. Nothing can or will 
  interfere with that.

  So I must not back away from this list. I will try to help people 
  that need help provately, but I will not be publicly visible. It is 
  unfortunate that Antonis and Martin created this list to help 
  advance that state of teh art, but certain people have decided to 
  shoot the messengers.

  Enjoy and keep on printing.

  Mike


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
                   
                   Height:   4567 ft  01234567891011 in 
                          Weight:   
                          Sex:   F  M 
                         
                   
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Huh, well now that is a real pity and a great shame. I don't really
contribute to this list except on the odd occasion, but I read it every day
and find a lot of useful information on it, certainly the signal to noise
ratio is much higher than many others around.

People aren't always in agreement and thats a good thing, but its a very
poor state of affairs when one of the most active and helpful and friendly
people on the list is misrepresented and asked to withdraw the assistance
and experience he would usually volunteer freely. It is to the detriment of
every party concerned and certainly of the group as a whole.


Seems people can't just agree to disagree!





sandy @ www.euphy.co.uk

This is really upsetting. 

I don't always agree with Mike on everything, but I respect his
participation and appreciate his presence in our community.

What he describes in his note must have been upsetting and hurtful for
him, and constitutes an assault on all of our rights to free speech.

I hope the moderators will do some investigating and take whatever
constructive action they find feasible and appropriate under the
circumstances to maintain the free flow of ideas we have enjoyed, and if
possible, encourage Mike to rejoin our discussions without fear anything
like this will happen again.

Richard Wolfson

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mkravit [mailto:mjkaia@...] 
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:16 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] A strike below the belt.
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Well I would like to than the person who called the Palm Beach 
> Photographic Center and complained that I have bad mouthed IJM and 
> George DeWolfe here on the list. I had to provide the director with 
> copies of all posts to prove that I did nothing of the sort.
> 
> As the VP of the Center, I can not tolerate having anything done 
> that will place the facility in a tenuous position. So those people 
> that have been calling Jon Cone and others reporting back everything 
> that is said here are due a round of applause.
> 
> Our centre rund workshops and programs for abused and at-risk 
> children as a not-for-profit organization. Nothing can or will 
> interfere with that.
> 
> So I must not back away from this list. I will try to help people 
> that need help provately, but I will not be publicly visible. It is 
> unfortunate that Antonis and Martin created this list to help 
> advance that state of teh art, but certain people have decided to 
> shoot the messengers.
> 
> Enjoy and keep on printing.
> 
> Mike

Mike wrote:

>... person who called the Palm Beach
>Photographic Center and complained that I have bad mouthed IJM and
>George DeWolfe here on the list. ...

This really is a low blow.  There is no excuse for trying to interfere with
relationships outside the list.

Mike, I hope you decide not to back away from the list.  We've all benefited
from your knowledge and experience.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

> >Mike wrote:
> >
> >... person who called the Palm Beach
> >Photographic Center and complained that I have bad mouthed IJM and
> >George DeWolfe here on the list. ...
>
> Paul wrote
>
> This really is a low blow.  There is no excuse for trying to interfere
with
> relationships outside the list.
>
> Mike, I hope you decide not to back away from the list.  We've all
benefited
> from your knowledge and experience.

Agreed.

Good Grief.
Like a 5 year old respnding to some unhappiness: "I'm gonna tell your Mommy"

Unbelievable.

Thanks
Bob Obenland

> This really is a low blow.  There is no excuse for trying to 
> interfere with
> relationships outside the list.
> 
> Mike, I hope you decide not to back away from the list.  We've 
> all benefited
> from your knowledge and experience.
> 
> Paul

Paul,

Well put, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Austin

Whoever perpetrated this behind-the-back move is, in my book, a crass 
craven coward..

I spent years working in politics and this is a move beneath all but the 
slimiest people I encountered in that field.

This list and other lists are meant to be places where opinions 
axiomatically differ and ideas are exchanged.  The more opinions that 
are silenced the less information we all have as group members.  It is 
through that VERY open exchange of information that we all advance the 
art.  To take disputes offlist is bad enough, but to actually make up 
commentary to undercut someone on this list is utterly reprehensible and 
almost beyond comment..

Whoever this person was... I don't know whom you thought was benefiting 
in your little ego-play (except your own feelings of grandiosity), but 
by silencing a consistent contributor to this list, you have harmed 
every member of it.  

Mike, as an aside.. If this harms your business in ANY way, I would say 
you have a VERY strong case for a libel/slander action against whomever 
this loser is.  You could actually file against "John Doe" and force 
those who were contacted to name the individual once the suit is filed. 
 In my opinion, this was done with malice and could easily be shown to 
be malicious.

Whoever you are, you crossed a clear ethical line here.  This is the 
kind of crap we all see from 10 year olds, not adults.

I may not agree with every one of Mike's or anyone's posts, but to 
concoct a hoax to undercut someone... all I can say is the perpetrator 
must feel mighty psychologically inadequate if they need to resort to 
such means instead of confronting disagreements, etc., personally and 
openly.

I hope others will join me in apologizing to Mike for the actions of 
another group member and ask him to consider remaining an active 
participant.

Keith

Well said Keith.  Mike, If there is anything we can do to help, please let
us know on or off list.  Perhaps a group based letter to Mr. Cone and Mr.
Dewolfe would be in order...disagreeing with the "Cone bashing"
characterization of Mike's comments?

Robert

On 5/9/02 2:11 PM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:

> Whoever perpetrated this behind-the-back move is, in my book, a crass
> craven coward..
> 
> I spent years working in politics and this is a move beneath all but the
> slimiest people I encountered in that field.
> 
> This list and other lists are meant to be places where opinions
> axiomatically differ and ideas are exchanged.  The more opinions that
> are silenced the less information we all have as group members.  It is
> through that VERY open exchange of information that we all advance the
> art.  To take disputes offlist is bad enough, but to actually make up
> commentary to undercut someone on this list is utterly reprehensible and
> almost beyond comment..
> 
> Whoever this person was... I don't know whom you thought was benefiting
> in your little ego-play (except your own feelings of grandiosity), but
> by silencing a consistent contributor to this list, you have harmed
> every member of it.
> 
> Mike, as an aside.. If this harms your business in ANY way, I would say
> you have a VERY strong case for a libel/slander action against whomever
> this loser is.  You could actually file against "John Doe" and force
> those who were contacted to name the individual once the suit is filed.
> In my opinion, this was done with malice and could easily be shown to
> be malicious.
> 
> Whoever you are, you crossed a clear ethical line here.  This is the
> kind of crap we all see from 10 year olds, not adults.
> 
> I may not agree with every one of Mike's or anyone's posts, but to
> concoct a hoax to undercut someone... all I can say is the perpetrator
> must feel mighty psychologically inadequate if they need to resort to
> such means instead of confronting disagreements, etc., personally and
> openly.
> 
> I hope others will join me in apologizing to Mike for the actions of
> another group member and ask him to consider remaining an active
> participant.
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert-

I would definitely join that list and would like to register my 
standing "on side" with these previous postings supporting Mike's 
terrific contributions to this forum and help he has freely offered 
to many less experienced in the group.

I hate to add bulk on the list to something that is so out of control 
already, but clearly this is a serious problem (possibly for Mike) 
and for the forum. If discussion, disagreement and dispute cannot be 
contained within the "cyberwall" of the list, there will likely be no 
free exchange of ideas...a loss to us all.

Mike, if I can do anything in the way of support in refuting any 
charges that you have acted improperly in any way on this forum, 
shoot me an email and I will be glad to speak up or write a letter 
expressing my thoughts to help you put this behind you. 

Unfortunately, incidents like this may be the very ocassional price 
we all pay to enjoy the totally open access and wonderful 
connectivity of the internet...difficult for you, Mike, but keep the 
faith and the rest of us will help you soldier through it.

Thanks for all you have contributed to my understanding of digital BW 
printing.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert G. Morrison" 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> Well said Keith.  Mike, If there is anything we can do to help, 
please let
> us know on or off list.  Perhaps a group based letter to Mr. Cone 
and Mr.
> Dewolfe would be in order...disagreeing with the "Cone bashing"
> characterization of Mike's comments?
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 5/9/02 2:11 PM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@p...>
> wrote:
> 
> > Whoever perpetrated this behind-the-back move is, in my book, a 
crass
> > craven coward..
> > 
> > I spent years working in politics and this is a move beneath all 
but the
> > slimiest people I encountered in that field.
> > 
> > This list and other lists are meant to be places where opinions
> > axiomatically differ and ideas are exchanged.  The more opinions 
that
> > are silenced the less information we all have as group members.  
It is
> > through that VERY open exchange of information that we all 
advance the
> > art.  To take disputes offlist is bad enough, but to actually 
make up
> > commentary to undercut someone on this list is utterly 
reprehensible and
> > almost beyond comment..
> > 
> > Whoever this person was... I don't know whom you thought was 
benefiting
> > in your little ego-play (except your own feelings of 
grandiosity), but
> > by silencing a consistent contributor to this list, you have 
harmed
> > every member of it.
> > 
> > Mike, as an aside.. If this harms your business in ANY way, I 
would say
> > you have a VERY strong case for a libel/slander action against 
whomever
> > this loser is.  You could actually file against "John Doe" and 
force
> > those who were contacted to name the individual once the suit is 
filed.
> > In my opinion, this was done with malice and could easily be 
shown to
> > be malicious.
> > 
> > Whoever you are, you crossed a clear ethical line here.  This is 
the
> > kind of crap we all see from 10 year olds, not adults.
> > 
> > I may not agree with every one of Mike's or anyone's posts, but to
> > concoct a hoax to undercut someone... all I can say is the 
perpetrator
> > must feel mighty psychologically inadequate if they need to 
resort to
> > such means instead of confronting disagreements, etc., personally 
and
> > openly.
> > 
> > I hope others will join me in apologizing to Mike for the actions 
of
> > another group member and ask him to consider remaining an active
> > participant.
> > 
> > Keith
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various
> > resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------
> Robert Morrison
> rmorrison@p...
> 
> 310-397-2704
> 
> 4131 Bledsoe Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 90066