Digital BW, The Print

Many years ago I saw an exhibit in Baltimore called "Florida Condo." The 
photographer was clearly putting across the message of the deplorable 
way we as a culture treat the eldest in our society (at least at that 
time). Key to conveying this message was the grain of the images. 
Technically he used 35mm,  with under exposure and over development with 
concentrated HC110 to maximize the grain and retained the grain by 
printing on a high gloss finish paper with a condenser enlarger head. .

The exhibit was quite good. My question is how faitfully would inkjet 
printing display this grain - that was a key to the photographs?

Thanks
Truman

Truman,

In my experience, I have found that my scanner reproduces the 
grain structure that is on my film. In fact, that is one of the 
reasons that I prefer film to digital cameras. Althougfh we can 
digitally introduce grain in Photoshop, I like the real thing when it 
is appropriate.

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Truman Prevatt <
tprevatt@m...> wrote:
My question is how faitfully would inkjet 

> printing display this grain - that was a key to the photographs?
> 
> Thanks
> Truman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" <mjkaia@k...> 
wrote:
In fact, that is one of the 
> reasons that I prefer film to digital cameras. Althougfh we can 
> digitally introduce grain in Photoshop, I like the real thing when 
it 
> is appropriate.

It is weird that you'd write this. Just yesterday, as I was 
obsessing over this Canon D60 b/w file, thinking it looked too 
clean and clinical and something else I couldn't quite put my 
finger on, I added Noise (Monochromatic) to the image, and, 
WALLAH!, it immediately turned into an romantic image that had 
been shot with a 1955 Leica! 

So easily am I fooled. If it was only this easy to make me happy 
in other areas of my life.

So, play around with Noise, and compare it to Grain, and then 
compare it to Film Grain. Each approach gives a slightly different 
look.

Back to the Future....

MT

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "marktuckerdotcom" 
<mtucker508@y...> wrote:

I propose that future Canon's and Nikon's have a small button 
labelled "Tri-X Mode"

Mike

> It is weird that you'd write this. Just yesterday, as I was 
> obsessing over this Canon D60 b/w file, thinking it looked too 
> clean and clinical and something else I couldn't quite put my 
> finger on, I added Noise (Monochromatic) to the image, and, 
> WALLAH!, it immediately turned into an romantic image that had 
> been shot with a 1955 Leica! 
> 
> So easily am I fooled. If it was only this easy to make me happy 
> in other areas of my life.
> 
> So, play around with Noise, and compare it to Grain, and then 
> compare it to Film Grain. Each approach gives a slightly different 
> look.
> 
> Back to the Future....
> 
> MT

On Friday, May 10, 2002, at 07:37 AM, marktuckerdotcom wrote:

> It is weird that you'd write this. Just yesterday, as I was
> obsessing over this Canon D60 b/w file, thinking it looked too
> clean and clinical and something else I couldn't quite put my
> finger on, I added Noise (Monochromatic) to the image, and,
> WALLAH!, it immediately turned into an romantic image that had
> been shot with a 1955 Leica!  . . . So, play around with Noise, and 
> compare it to Grain, and then
> compare it to Film Grain. Each approach gives a slightly different

If you aren't already familiar with them, you might find the Photoshop 
b&w filters produced by SilverOxide.com interesting. They are intended 
to convert digital photographs or scanned color images into black and 
white images with the tonal characteristics of a variety of specific b&w 
films. The SilverOxide website--www.silveroxide.com--is a little on the 
crude side, but it's clear enough about how the filters function. I 
think that all the illustrations they provide are based on their Tri-X 
filter. The filters don't address the grain issue (only the way that , 
say, Tri-X, HP5, Delta 400, T400CN, and APX400 respond differently to 
the same colors), but I thought they might be relevant to a discussion 
of the "unfilmlike" look of unadjusted digital b&w images.

Dan Bowdoin

Daniel-

I love silver oxide (I use a Nikon D1x)... I upgraded to the 16 bit 
with the larger image view and I totally love it (though I must admit 
I've fallen into the habit of only using the terrific plus-x filter).

I don't think the Tri-x actually adds any grain, just a little less 
contrast and "tri-x" look.

Have you tried any of the other filters? Do you know of any way to 
see examples of what they would produce???

Maybe we could post some examples here of files that show off each 
filter characteristics...or exchange files via email? I'd be willing 
to buy a few more filters (not cheap) but want to know what they will 
do before I get them...I'm just not familiar with any of the other 
films he offers.

What do you think?

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Daniel Bowdoin 
<controlarm@m...> wrote:
> On Friday, May 10, 2002, at 07:37 AM, marktuckerdotcom wrote:
> 
> > It is weird that you'd write this. Just yesterday, as I was
> > obsessing over this Canon D60 b/w file, thinking it looked too
> > clean and clinical and something else I couldn't quite put my
> > finger on, I added Noise (Monochromatic) to the image, and,
> > WALLAH!, it immediately turned into an romantic image that had
> > been shot with a 1955 Leica!  . . . So, play around with Noise, 
and 
> > compare it to Grain, and then
> > compare it to Film Grain. Each approach gives a slightly different
> 
> If you aren't already familiar with them, you might find the 
Photoshop 
> b&w filters produced by SilverOxide.com interesting. They are 
intended 
> to convert digital photographs or scanned color images into black 
and 
> white images with the tonal characteristics of a variety of 
specific b&w 
> films. The SilverOxide website--www.silveroxide.com--is a little on 
the 
> crude side, but it's clear enough about how the filters function. I 
> think that all the illustrations they provide are based on their 
Tri-X 
> filter. The filters don't address the grain issue (only the way 
that , 
> say, Tri-X, HP5, Delta 400, T400CN, and APX400 respond differently 
to 
> the same colors), but I thought they might be relevant to a 
discussion 

> of the "unfilmlike" look of unadjusted digital b&w images.
> 
> Dan Bowdoin

I also use the SilverOxide filters.  Good stuff.  I bought a bunch of 
the 8-bit filters way back.  I only have the Tri-X 16-bit filter.  
Their upgrade pricing is virtually nonexistent.  I couldn't bring 
myself to fork out a couple hundred dollars to buy 16-bit versions of 
the same filters.

One problem I have with the filter is the slider controls.  One is 
supposed to control the shadows and the other controls the 
highlights.  I find that they really aren't independent sliders.  So 
I spend a lot of time setting the sliders, running the filter, 
checking the histogram, undo, back to the filter, readjust sliders, 
etc, etc.

But, I find this to be easier for me than learning how to deal with 
the channel mixer.

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tomoc" <TomOC@s...> wrote:
> Daniel-
> 
> I love silver oxide (I use a Nikon D1x)... I upgraded to the 16 bit 
> with the larger image view and I totally love it (though I must 
admit 
> I've fallen into the habit of only using the terrific plus-x 
filter).
> 
> I don't think the Tri-x actually adds any grain, just a little less 
> contrast and "tri-x" look.
> 
> Have you tried any of the other filters? Do you know of any way to 
> see examples of what they would produce???
> 
> Maybe we could post some examples here of files that show off each 
> filter characteristics...or exchange files via email? I'd be 
willing 
> to buy a few more filters (not cheap) but want to know what they 
will 
> do before I get them...I'm just not familiar with any of the other 
> films he offers.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Tom O'Connell
> 
> TomOC@s...
> www.thomasoconnell.com
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Daniel Bowdoin 
> <controlarm@m...> wrote:
> > On Friday, May 10, 2002, at 07:37 AM, marktuckerdotcom wrote:
> > 
> > > It is weird that you'd write this. Just yesterday, as I was
> > > obsessing over this Canon D60 b/w file, thinking it looked too
> > > clean and clinical and something else I couldn't quite put my
> > > finger on, I added Noise (Monochromatic) to the image, and,
> > > WALLAH!, it immediately turned into an romantic image that had
> > > been shot with a 1955 Leica!  . . . So, play around with Noise, 
> and 
> > > compare it to Grain, and then
> > > compare it to Film Grain. Each approach gives a slightly 
different
> > 
> > If you aren't already familiar with them, you might find the 
> Photoshop 
> > b&w filters produced by SilverOxide.com interesting. They are 
> intended 
> > to convert digital photographs or scanned color images into black 
> and 
> > white images with the tonal characteristics of a variety of 
> specific b&w 
> > films. The SilverOxide website--www.silveroxide.com--is a little 
on 
> the 
> > crude side, but it's clear enough about how the filters function. 
I 
> > think that all the illustrations they provide are based on their 
> Tri-X 
> > filter. The filters don't address the grain issue (only the way 
> that , 
> > say, Tri-X, HP5, Delta 400, T400CN, and APX400 respond 
differently 

> to 
> > the same colors), but I thought they might be relevant to a 
> discussion 
> > of the "unfilmlike" look of unadjusted digital b&w images.
> > 
> > Dan Bowdoin