Digital BW, The Print

Opps.  Ignore my last post on this subject.  When the file is converted to
RGB for printing, the values (and thus print) are thrown off by the
procedure I outlined there.  It may work for Piezo due to the grayscale
printing there, but it is not a good procedure for the RGB workflows like
the MIS VM curves.

It appears the better solution is to use a PS 6 Preview procedure outlined
by Tyler at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/17849

This procedure uses the Edit, Color settings to make a custom dot gain
curve, but saves the curve so that it can be used in a View, Proof Setup
preview system that does not alter the working space and affect the RGB
values when the image is converted to RGB for printing.

Go to Tyler's description of the steps at the above URL for details.

The only thing I've now done in addition to this procedure is to record a
Photoshop "Action" so that I can apply the preview with a simple, single
keystroke (a function key on my PC was designated).  That makes the
procedure easy to apply to images as they are opened.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Opps.  Ignore my last post on this subject.  When the file is 
converted to
> RGB for printing, the values (and thus print) are thrown off by the
> procedure I outlined there.  It may work for Piezo due to the 
grayscale
> printing there, but it is not a good procedure for the RGB workflows 
like
> the MIS VM curves.

Gee, could I have it all wrong?? Possible, maybe.

> 
> It appears the better solution is to use a PS 6 Preview procedure 
outlined
> by Tyler at
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/17849
> 
> This procedure uses the Edit, Color settings to make a custom dot 
gain
> curve, but saves the curve so that it can be used in a View, Proof 
Setup
> preview system that does not alter the working space and affect the 
RGB
> values when the image is converted to RGB for printing.


But if I understand that above, you don't have to worry. What you do 
is work away in your custom dotgain profile, even embed it into the 
file. Work on the image until you like all the values, then save 
image.

Then close the image. Then go to edit ,color settings and change the 
profile setup to "photoshop 5 defaults" (greyscale is gamma 2.2). Now 
open the image back up, and tell pshop to discard the embedded 
profile. This will cause the image not to be affected by the custom 
dotgain curve as you just disgarded it and told pshop to use gamma 2.2 
on all images anyway. The image can now be converted to RGB, and pshop 
will convert from an assumed "gamma 2.2" to an "sRGB" profile. No 
values get changed: 60%k is 60%k. The image WILL look darker, but your 
not trying to match the print to monitor anymore.

Or am I wrong about this Paul? I will go look at the post you refer 
to. Let me know what you think...
Jim H. 
> 
> Go to Tyler's description of the steps at the above URL for details.
> 
> The only thing I've now done in addition to this procedure is to 
record a
> Photoshop "Action" so that I can apply the preview with a simple, 
single

> keystroke (a function key on my PC was designated).  That makes the
> procedure easy to apply to images as they are opened.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Jim,

Today I've been using the PS 6 Preview/View, Proof Setup, Custom
Profile/Tyler post method (all in a single function keystroke PS "Action"
now).  So far it's working very well and very easily.



>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
><paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>> Opps.  Ignore my last post on this subject.  When the file is
converted to
>> RGB for printing, the values (and thus print) are thrown off by the
>> procedure I outlined there.  It may work for Piezo due to the
grayscale
>> printing there, but it is not a good procedure for the RGB workflows
like
>> the MIS VM curves.

>Gee, could I have it all wrong?? Possible, maybe.

Or maybe I was doing something wrong.

>
>> It appears the better solution is to use a PS 6 Preview procedure
outlined
>> by Tyler at
>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/17849
>
>> This procedure uses the Edit, Color settings to make a custom dot
gain
>> curve, but saves the curve so that it can be used in a View, Proof
Setup
>> preview system that does not alter the working space and affect the
RGB
>> values when the image is converted to RGB for printing.


>But if I understand that above, you don't have to worry. What you do
>is work away in your custom dotgain profile, even embed it into the
>file. Work on the image until you like all the values, then save
>image.

>Then close the image. Then go to edit ,color settings and change the
>profile setup to "photoshop 5 defaults" (greyscale is gamma 2.2). Now
>open the image back up, and tell pshop to discard the embedded
>profile. This will cause the image not to be affected by the custom
>dotgain curve as you just discarded it and told pshop to use gamma 2.2
>on all images anyway. The image can now be converted to RGB, and pshop
>will convert from an assumed "gamma 2.2" to an "sRGB" profile. No
>values get changed: 60%k is 60%k. The image WILL look darker, but your
>not trying to match the print to monitor anymore.

I can see where your procedure would work, but it involves a lot of extra
steps.  Try the method Tyler outlined and program a PS Action.  That way
there is no need to open and close files (and some of mine are huge) or go
through this stuff endlessly as you work.  Just open the file and hit a key
to apply the preview/custom dot gain profile, with no concerns about
inaccurate mapping to the RGB printing space.  It really works well as far
as I can see.

Paul




>
>> Go to Tyler's description of the steps at the above URL for details.
>
>> The only thing I've now done in addition to this procedure is to
record a
>> Photoshop "Action" so that I can apply the preview with a simple,
single

>> keystroke (a function key on my PC was designated).  That makes the
>> procedure easy to apply to images as they are opened.
>
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jim,
> 
> Today I've been using the PS 6 Preview/View, Proof Setup, Custom
> Profile/Tyler post method (all in a single function keystroke PS 
"Action"
> now).  So far it's working very well and very easily.
> 


Yes, I tried it last night and it works well. Also, I'm relieved to 
know that my method doesn't mess things up. There may be some 
advantages to my method in some situations, such as when montaging 
across multiple files, or when working on one image continuously for 
days, or possibly if I want to embed the dotgain curve in the image 
for reference purposes whenever it is saved. Have to think about that, 
and try out Tyler's method for awhile. A couple of questions:

1) When I open a new image, I have to go through the softproof setup 
anew. This can be put in an action of course and made simple. But it 
seems that there must be some way to get photoshop to always remember 
the softproof setup, so that all one has to do is toggle it on or off 
for any newly opened image.

2) How about reverse-softproofing? That is, set the color settings to 
the custom dotgain, and the softproofing setup to gamma 2.2....the 
real question here is can one toggle on softproofing when wanting to 
print only, and will it convert from that "soft" space to sRGB 
accurately so that your curves could be applied and then print output 
obtained?
Jim H.

Jim,

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
><paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>>  Today I've been using the PS 6 Preview/View, Proof Setup, Custom
>> Profile/Tyler post method (all in a single function keystroke PS
"Action"
>> now).  So far it's working very well and very easily.
>


>Yes, I tried it last night and it works well. Also, I'm relieved to
>know that my method doesn't mess things up. ...

>1) When I open a new image, I have to go through the softproof setup
>anew. This can be put in an action of course and made simple. But it
>seems that there must be some way to get Photoshop to always remember
>the softproof setup, so that all one has to do is toggle it on or off
>for any newly opened image.

You should not have to re-do the custom dot gain curve.  That should have
been saved in a place where the preview looks.  You do have to go to View,
Proof Setup, Custom, ... .  It is these keystrokes that can be easily put
into an Action, so that a single function key (in Windows) does the entire
procedure immediately.

I don't know if there is a way that PS would initiate the Action upon each
opening.  I'm not sure that I'd want that anyway, since not all the images I
open are going to be printed through the workflow to which the custom dot
gain curve matched.

>2) How about reverse-softproofing? That is, set the color settings to
>the custom dotgain, and the softproofing setup to gamma 2.2....the
>real question here is can one toggle on softproofing when wanting to
>print only, and will it convert from that "soft" space to sRGB
>accurately so that your curves could be applied and then print output
>obtained?

I don't know.  It's getting too complex for me to deal with this morning.
You might try the various approached with the 21-step test file, and just
measure the values of the 95% after the RGB conversion, but before a tone
curve is applied.  That is where the mis-mapping of the first procedure I
tries became apparent (as well as in the prints).  So, just know where the
95% is supposed to end up in RGB and see where it ends up with the procedure
you're thinking about.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

I'm working on matching my monitor to my prints & I plan to use 
the "tyler method" below because that seems to be the favored way. I 
just have a quick quesion: 

When I print out this print that I'll be trying to match to the 
screen, do I convert to RBG and use the curve (i.e. vmp8-nc16.acv) 
that I plan to use? or is there something I'm missing?

Thanks,
Ericka Menchen
www.erickamenchen.net

--------------------------------------
I've addressed this often with friends, and it never seemed that
clear for PS6, so I thought I'd post it for posterity here since 
I finally have a handle on it. It works well for any printing method 
that starts with a gray scale file. Print out an image, many like the
step wedge but a full scale image works better for me, 
with the gray scale pasted in to it. Save the file, let the print dry.

1) Open the file, go to image/ mode/ assign profile, select "don't
color manage this document".

2) Go to edit/ color settings. Check Advanced Mode, check preview. At
working spaces, scroll gray up to "custom dot gain".

3) Adjust the curve so that the image on the monitor matches your
print, name the curve in the space provided. Click OK.

4) You should now see your curve as the gray working space, click on
it and scroll up to save gray, it should automatically 
have selected your colorsync profile folder on the Mac, no idea 
where it goes on a PC, hopefully PS automatically brought up the
right location by default. No need to rename it, save.

5) You should now still have the color settings box open, don't hit
ok! Hit cancel so all you working spaces will remain as 
before, this new curve will only be used for preview.

6) Go to View/ Proof setup/ Custom. Scroll down to the bottom, your
new curve should be there, select it. Check "preserve 
Color Numbers", unlike previewing with color profiles. Hit ok.

You can now toggle it on and off, and use it to preview any gray
scale file that is tagged in any space. It's been working well 
to use while making tonal adjustments on files to be printed with 
quads. My apologies if you all had this squared away before. For some
reason it eluded me for a bit in PS6.

Tyler

Ericka,

The preview method outlined below is just for the file while in grayscale.
You will print the file in the normal way, and you'll find when you contert
to RGB the preview is no longer active and the monitor image will look
darker -- like it did before the preview was applied to the g/s image.  The
preview is just a monitor adjustment and does not affect the file.  Convert
to RGB and apply the tone curve as usual.

Paul

_______________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: ericka_akcire [mailto:ericka_akcire@...]
  Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:22 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print


  I'm working on matching my monitor to my prints & I plan to use
  the "tyler method" below because that seems to be the favored way. I
  just have a quick quesion:

  When I print out this print that I'll be trying to match to the
  screen, do I convert to RBG and use the curve (i.e. vmp8-nc16.acv)
  that I plan to use? or is there something I'm missing?

  Thanks,
  Ericka Menchen
  www.erickamenchen.net

  --------------------------------------
  I've addressed this often with friends, and it never seemed that
  clear for PS6, so I thought I'd post it for posterity here since
  I finally have a handle on it. It works well for any printing method
  that starts with a gray scale file. Print out an image, many like the
  step wedge but a full scale image works better for me,
  with the gray scale pasted in to it. Save the file, let the print dry.

  1) Open the file, go to image/ mode/ assign profile, select "don't
  color manage this document".

  2) Go to edit/ color settings. Check Advanced Mode, check preview. At
  working spaces, scroll gray up to "custom dot gain".

  3) Adjust the curve so that the image on the monitor matches your
  print, name the curve in the space provided. Click OK.

  4) You should now see your curve as the gray working space, click on
  it and scroll up to save gray, it should automatically
  have selected your colorsync profile folder on the Mac, no idea
  where it goes on a PC, hopefully PS automatically brought up the
  right location by default. No need to rename it, save.

  5) You should now still have the color settings box open, don't hit
  ok! Hit cancel so all you working spaces will remain as
  before, this new curve will only be used for preview.

  6) Go to View/ Proof setup/ Custom. Scroll down to the bottom, your
  new curve should be there, select it. Check "preserve
  Color Numbers", unlike previewing with color profiles. Hit ok.

  You can now toggle it on and off, and use it to preview any gray
  scale file that is tagged in any space. It's been working well
  to use while making tonal adjustments on files to be printed with
  quads. My apologies if you all had this squared away before. For some
  reason it eluded me for a bit in PS6.

  Tyler



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know of a good workflow online that describes this 
process of setting up profiles, assigning profiles, choosing 
settings on the Epson print dialog box, etc. for color 
management?  I just got a Colorvision monitor spyder to 
calibrate my monitor, but don't know whether to assign that 
profile or the Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images prior to 
adjusting them.  Still trying to get settled on this color / B&W 
profiling thing...  

Andy



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Ericka,
> 
> The preview method outlined below is just for the file while in 
grayscale.
> You will print the file in the normal way, and you'll find when you 
contert
> to RGB the preview is no longer active and the monitor image 
will look
> darker -- like it did before the preview was applied to the g/s 
image.  The
> preview is just a monitor adjustment and does not affect the 
file.  Convert
> to RGB and apply the tone curve as usual.
> 
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: ericka_akcire [mailto:ericka_akcire@y...]
>   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:22 AM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print
> 
> 
>   I'm working on matching my monitor to my prints & I plan to 
use
>   the "tyler method" below because that seems to be the 
favored way. I
>   just have a quick quesion:
> 
>   When I print out this print that I'll be trying to match to the
>   screen, do I convert to RBG and use the curve (i.e. vmp8-
nc16.acv)
>   that I plan to use? or is there something I'm missing?
> 
>   Thanks,
>   Ericka Menchen
>   www.erickamenchen.net
> 
>   --------------------------------------
>   I've addressed this often with friends, and it never seemed 
that
>   clear for PS6, so I thought I'd post it for posterity here since
>   I finally have a handle on it. It works well for any printing 
method
>   that starts with a gray scale file. Print out an image, many like 
the
>   step wedge but a full scale image works better for me,
>   with the gray scale pasted in to it. Save the file, let the print 
dry.
> 
>   1) Open the file, go to image/ mode/ assign profile, select 
"don't
>   color manage this document".
> 
>   2) Go to edit/ color settings. Check Advanced Mode, check 
preview. At
>   working spaces, scroll gray up to "custom dot gain".
> 
>   3) Adjust the curve so that the image on the monitor matches 
your
>   print, name the curve in the space provided. Click OK.
> 
>   4) You should now see your curve as the gray working space, 
click on
>   it and scroll up to save gray, it should automatically
>   have selected your colorsync profile folder on the Mac, no 
idea
>   where it goes on a PC, hopefully PS automatically brought up 
the
>   right location by default. No need to rename it, save.
> 
>   5) You should now still have the color settings box open, don't 
hit
>   ok! Hit cancel so all you working spaces will remain as
>   before, this new curve will only be used for preview.
> 
>   6) Go to View/ Proof setup/ Custom. Scroll down to the 
bottom, your
>   new curve should be there, select it. Check "preserve
>   Color Numbers", unlike previewing with color profiles. Hit ok.
> 
>   You can now toggle it on and off, and use it to preview any 
gray
>   scale file that is tagged in any space. It's been working well
>   to use while making tonal adjustments on files to be printed 
with
>   quads. My apologies if you all had this squared away before. 
For some
>   reason it eluded me for a bit in PS6.
> 
>   Tyler
> 
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is 
at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or
> "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service.

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andy,

Try the various tutorials by Ian Lyons  (welcome.to/computerdarkroom) 

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "akivisuals" <akivisuals@...>


> Does anyone know of a good workflow online that describes this 
> process of setting up profiles, assigning profiles, choosing 
> settings on the Epson print dialog box, etc. for color 
> management?  I just got a Colorvision monitor spyder to 
> calibrate my monitor, but don't know whether to assign that 
> profile or the Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images prior to 
> adjusting them.  Still trying to get settled on this color / B&W 
> profiling thing...  
>

Andy,

The profile generated by the Colorvision software from the spyder data is
only good for use as a monitor profile. This profile, in Windows at least,
is applied as the system boots up and is in use for all applications. In
Photoshop with the monitor profile running you get an accurate translation
of the data from the color space of the file to your screen.

Unfortunately this profile is for the monitor only and will not help you
directly in controlling the printer although it is an essential and first
step in getting color management under control. For printing you need a
printer profile that is specific for the printer, ink and paper in use.
These are generated by programs like Colorvision's RGB or CYMK Profiler or
Profiler Pro. Just like the monitor profiler they need data feedback about
the print in order to create an accurate profile. RGB and CYMK Profiler use
data from a scan of a printed test target. Profiler Pro can use data
gathered by measuring a test target with a photospectrometer.

The problem is that these programs and others are designed for color
printing. I know that Profiler Pro will give you a profile of a grayscale
ink set that is good enough for previewing more accurately on screen but is
not good enough for use in actual printing. I understand that some of the
high end software from companies like Gretag produce useable print profiles
but I have not seen the results.

So we really can't get true WYSIWYG for grayscale printing, unless there is
something out there I haven't seen yet. Perhaps ImagePrint 4 provides a good
screen to print match. However, we can get good approximations. Also keep in
mind that in the darkroom we are literally running blind to start with. You
make some test strips and then a print and based on that print adjust your
exposure for the next one. We are a bit ahead of that but not as much as I
would like.

The simplest approach to getting a good on screen view is to print out a
step wedge using your chosen workflow. Then use Tyler Boley's procedure for
creating and using a custom dot gain curve. You can find this in the Files
section of the group homepage in the folder:

Files > Image processing

This method will give you good results. It can be enhanced further if you
have access to a photospectrometer that will give you actual measured dot %
values to use in the Dot Gain curve.

I work on my files in RGB if I intend to print then using MIS-VM and the
Epson driver. For this I have a profile generated with Profiler Pro using
data from a Spectrocam photospectrometer. (Once again thanks to Tyler for
helping me set this up.) Using this in a soft proof mode I can see a
reasonable representation of what the print will look like not only in terms
of grayscale tones but in terms of the hue of both the ink and the paper. A
very nice way to work but the software and hardware represent a $2,200
investment. I wish I could share the profile but my software license does
not permit that.

In term of getting all the color management setting of Photoshop and the
print drive set properly, that will depend upon the particular workflow you
choose.

I hope that helps some and if there are any errors or omissions, I trust
others will correct me as I cannot lay any claim to being an expert in color
management. Still makes my head spin.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "akivisuals" <akivisuals@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print


> Does anyone know of a good workflow online that describes this
> process of setting up profiles, assigning profiles, choosing
> settings on the Epson print dialog box, etc. for color
> management?  I just got a Colorvision monitor spyder to
> calibrate my monitor, but don't know whether to assign that
> profile or the Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images prior to
> adjusting them.  Still trying to get settled on this color / B&W
> profiling thing...
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Ericka,
> >
> > The preview method outlined below is just for the file while in
> grayscale.
> > You will print the file in the normal way, and you'll find when you
> contert
> > to RGB the preview is no longer active and the monitor image
> will look
> > darker -- like it did before the preview was applied to the g/s
> image.  The
> > preview is just a monitor adjustment and does not affect the
> file.  Convert
> > to RGB and apply the tone curve as usual.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > _______________________________
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: ericka_akcire [mailto:ericka_akcire@y...]
> >   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:22 AM
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print
> >
> >
> >   I'm working on matching my monitor to my prints & I plan to
> use
> >   the "tyler method" below because that seems to be the
> favored way. I
> >   just have a quick quesion:
> >
> >   When I print out this print that I'll be trying to match to the
> >   screen, do I convert to RBG and use the curve (i.e. vmp8-
> nc16.acv)
> >   that I plan to use? or is there something I'm missing?
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   Ericka Menchen
> >   www.erickamenchen.net
> >
> >   --------------------------------------
> >   I've addressed this often with friends, and it never seemed
> that
> >   clear for PS6, so I thought I'd post it for posterity here since
> >   I finally have a handle on it. It works well for any printing
> method
> >   that starts with a gray scale file. Print out an image, many like
> the
> >   step wedge but a full scale image works better for me,
> >   with the gray scale pasted in to it. Save the file, let the print
> dry.
> >
> >   1) Open the file, go to image/ mode/ assign profile, select
> "don't
> >   color manage this document".
> >
> >   2) Go to edit/ color settings. Check Advanced Mode, check
> preview. At
> >   working spaces, scroll gray up to "custom dot gain".
> >
> >   3) Adjust the curve so that the image on the monitor matches
> your
> >   print, name the curve in the space provided. Click OK.
> >
> >   4) You should now see your curve as the gray working space,
> click on
> >   it and scroll up to save gray, it should automatically
> >   have selected your colorsync profile folder on the Mac, no
> idea
> >   where it goes on a PC, hopefully PS automatically brought up
> the
> >   right location by default. No need to rename it, save.
> >
> >   5) You should now still have the color settings box open, don't
> hit
> >   ok! Hit cancel so all you working spaces will remain as
> >   before, this new curve will only be used for preview.
> >
> >   6) Go to View/ Proof setup/ Custom. Scroll down to the
> bottom, your
> >   new curve should be there, select it. Check "preserve
> >   Color Numbers", unlike previewing with color profiles. Hit ok.
> >
> >   You can now toggle it on and off, and use it to preview any
> gray
> >   scale file that is tagged in any space. It's been working well
> >   to use while making tonal adjustments on files to be printed
> with
> >   quads. My apologies if you all had this squared away before.
> For some
> >   reason it eluded me for a bit in PS6.
> >
> >   Tyler
> >
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Thanks Martin.  I've been working in Photoshop for years (since 
2.5), but haven't really spent any time working on calibration to 
this extent.  I've only recently determined that I can print a good 
enough quality photographic print on an inkjet printer.  It just 
wasn't worth even trying on the Canon laser printer and thermal 
printers that I was using in school.  Now, it seems that inkjet 
printers are rivaling that of traditional processes so it's time to 
make some changes.  Thanks for helping me along in the 
transition!

Andy




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <
mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> The profile generated by the Colorvision software from the 
spyder data is
> only good for use as a monitor profile. This profile, in Windows 
at least,
> is applied as the system boots up and is in use for all 
applications. In
> Photoshop with the monitor profile running you get an accurate 
translation
> of the data from the color space of the file to your screen.
> 
> Unfortunately this profile is for the monitor only and will not 
help you
> directly in controlling the printer although it is an essential and 
first
> step in getting color management under control. For printing 
you need a
> printer profile that is specific for the printer, ink and paper in 
use.
> These are generated by programs like Colorvision's RGB or 
CYMK Profiler or
> Profiler Pro. Just like the monitor profiler they need data 
feedback about
> the print in order to create an accurate profile. RGB and CYMK 
Profiler use
> data from a scan of a printed test target. Profiler Pro can use 
data
> gathered by measuring a test target with a photospectrometer.
> 
> The problem is that these programs and others are designed 
for color
> printing. I know that Profiler Pro will give you a profile of a 
grayscale
> ink set that is good enough for previewing more accurately on 
screen but is
> not good enough for use in actual printing. I understand that 
some of the
> high end software from companies like Gretag produce 
useable print profiles
> but I have not seen the results.
> 
> So we really can't get true WYSIWYG for grayscale printing, 
unless there is
> something out there I haven't seen yet. Perhaps ImagePrint 4 
provides a good
> screen to print match. However, we can get good 
approximations. Also keep in
> mind that in the darkroom we are literally running blind to start 
with. You
> make some test strips and then a print and based on that print 
adjust your
> exposure for the next one. We are a bit ahead of that but not as 
much as I
> would like.
> 
> The simplest approach to getting a good on screen view is to 
print out a
> step wedge using your chosen workflow. Then use Tyler 
Boley's procedure for
> creating and using a custom dot gain curve. You can find this 
in the Files
> section of the group homepage in the folder:
> 
> Files > Image processing
> 
> This method will give you good results. It can be enhanced 
further if you
> have access to a photospectrometer that will give you actual 
measured dot %
> values to use in the Dot Gain curve.
> 
> I work on my files in RGB if I intend to print then using MIS-VM 
and the
> Epson driver. For this I have a profile generated with Profiler 
Pro using
> data from a Spectrocam photospectrometer. (Once again 
thanks to Tyler for
> helping me set this up.) Using this in a soft proof mode I can 
see a
> reasonable representation of what the print will look like not 
only in terms
> of grayscale tones but in terms of the hue of both the ink and 
the paper. A
> very nice way to work but the software and hardware represent 
a $2,200
> investment. I wish I could share the profile but my software 
license does
> not permit that.
> 
> In term of getting all the color management setting of 
Photoshop and the
> print drive set properly, that will depend upon the particular 
workflow you
> choose.
> 
> I hope that helps some and if there are any errors or 
omissions, I trust
> others will correct me as I cannot lay any claim to being an 
expert in color
> management. Still makes my head spin.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "akivisuals" <akivisuals@y...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know of a good workflow online that describes 
this
> > process of setting up profiles, assigning profiles, choosing
> > settings on the Epson print dialog box, etc. for color
> > management?  I just got a Colorvision monitor spyder to
> > calibrate my monitor, but don't know whether to assign that
> > profile or the Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images prior to
> > adjusting them.  Still trying to get settled on this color / B&W
> > profiling thing...
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> > paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Ericka,
> > >
> > > The preview method outlined below is just for the file while 
in
> > grayscale.
> > > You will print the file in the normal way, and you'll find when 
you
> > contert
> > > to RGB the preview is no longer active and the monitor 
image
> > will look
> > > darker -- like it did before the preview was applied to the g/
s
> > image.  The
> > > preview is just a monitor adjustment and does not affect 
the
> > file.  Convert
> > > to RGB and apply the tone curve as usual.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > _______________________________
> > >   -----Original Message-----
> > >   From: ericka_akcire [mailto:ericka_akcire@y...]
> > >   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:22 AM
> > >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matching the Monitor to the Print
> > >
> > >
> > >   I'm working on matching my monitor to my prints & I plan 
to
> > use
> > >   the "tyler method" below because that seems to be the
> > favored way. I
> > >   just have a quick quesion:
> > >
> > >   When I print out this print that I'll be trying to match to the
> > >   screen, do I convert to RBG and use the curve (i.e. vmp8-
> > nc16.acv)
> > >   that I plan to use? or is there something I'm missing?
> > >
> > >   Thanks,
> > >   Ericka Menchen
> > >   www.erickamenchen.net
> > >
> > >   --------------------------------------
> > >   I've addressed this often with friends, and it never 
seemed
> > that
> > >   clear for PS6, so I thought I'd post it for posterity here 
since
> > >   I finally have a handle on it. It works well for any printing
> > method
> > >   that starts with a gray scale file. Print out an image, many 
like
> > the
> > >   step wedge but a full scale image works better for me,
> > >   with the gray scale pasted in to it. Save the file, let the print
> > dry.
> > >
> > >   1) Open the file, go to image/ mode/ assign profile, select
> > "don't
> > >   color manage this document".
> > >
> > >   2) Go to edit/ color settings. Check Advanced Mode, check
> > preview. At
> > >   working spaces, scroll gray up to "custom dot gain".
> > >
> > >   3) Adjust the curve so that the image on the monitor 
matches
> > your
> > >   print, name the curve in the space provided. Click OK.
> > >
> > >   4) You should now see your curve as the gray working 
space,
> > click on
> > >   it and scroll up to save gray, it should automatically
> > >   have selected your colorsync profile folder on the Mac, no
> > idea
> > >   where it goes on a PC, hopefully PS automatically brought 
up
> > the
> > >   right location by default. No need to rename it, save.
> > >
> > >   5) You should now still have the color settings box open, 
don't
> > hit
> > >   ok! Hit cancel so all you working spaces will remain as
> > >   before, this new curve will only be used for preview.
> > >
> > >   6) Go to View/ Proof setup/ Custom. Scroll down to the
> > bottom, your
> > >   new curve should be there, select it. Check "preserve
> > >   Color Numbers", unlike previewing with color profiles. Hit 
ok.
> > >
> > >   You can now toggle it on and off, and use it to preview any
> > gray
> > >   scale file that is tagged in any space. It's been working 
well
> > >   to use while making tonal adjustments on files to be 
printed
> > with
> > >   quads. My apologies if you all had this squared away 
before.
> > For some
> > >   reason it eluded me for a bit in PS6.
> > >
> > >   Tyler
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >               ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> > Bookmarks, Polls and
> > > other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is
> > at:
> > >
> > >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > >   - Include your full name with your message.
> > >   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > >   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change 
the
> > subject header.
> > >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal 
attacks
> > or
> > > "flames."
> > >   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > >   - Before posting a question, search the message 
archives
> > and the various
> > > resources on the homepage.
> > >
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> > Service.
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Bookmarks, Polls and
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> >
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> >
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> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> them short.
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subject header.
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or
> "flames."
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> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
> >

In a message dated 6/28/02 3:44:32 PM, akivisuals@... writes:

>Does anyone know of a good workflow online that describes this 
>process of setting up profiles, assigning profiles, choosing 
>settings on the Epson print dialog box, etc. for color 
>management?  I just got a Colorvision monitor spyder to 
>calibrate my monitor, but don't know whether to assign that 
>profile or the Adobe RGB (1998) profile to my images prior to 
>adjusting them.  Still trying to get settled on this color / B&W 
>profiling thing...  

Your images should be in a universal, neutral balanced color space like 
AdobeRGB. Your monitor profile is used only for display purposes, not image 
space purposes. So be sure that it is being used by Photoshop (under 
ColorSettings click on RGB, and see that MonitorRGB-"xxxx" has you correct 
monitor profile listed in the "xxxx" section, then be sure you have reset the 
RGbB space to AdobeRGB). The only other place you might use your monitor 
profile is in your scanner software, again for accurate viewing.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

In a message dated 6/28/02 6:16:59 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>The profile generated by the Colorvision software from the spyder data
>is
>only good for use as a monitor profile. This profile, in Windows at least,
>is applied as the system boots up and is in use for all applications.

Not the profile, actually, jsut the RGB channel curves that it contains... if 
red on your monitor is quite orange, these corrections will make it a nice, 
smooth orange, but not a correct red.

 In
>Photoshop with the monitor profile running you get an accurate translation
>of the data from the color space of the file to your screen.

Yes, Photoshop and other ICC savvy applications then applies the color 
correction part of the profile, now making the reds on your monitor the 
proper hue.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

This is just a footnote to Martin's response to Andy's previous post.

"Real World Color Management" is supposed to come out July 15, and I 
assume it will be good background information even for B&W printing. 
The new version of Dan Margulis's "Professional Photoshop ...: the 
Classic Guide to Color Correction" is also announced for July 15 and 
will surely remain a useful contrary companion to and extension of 
the conventional wisdom. And "Real World Photoshop 7" is now 
scheduled for July 22. I plan not to upgrade 6 without it. (And maybe 
not until Mac OS X has matured into "Jaguar".)

Sam McCandless            samcc@...

>Thanks Martin.  I've been working in Photoshop for years (since
>2.5), but haven't really spent any time working on calibration to
>this extent.  I've only recently determined that I can print a good
>enough quality photographic print on an inkjet printer.  It just
>wasn't worth even trying on the Canon laser printer and thermal
>printers that I was using in school.  Now, it seems that inkjet
>printers are rivaling that of traditional processes so it's time to
>make some changes.  Thanks for helping me along in the
>transition!
>
>Andy

David,

You seem to understand what you wrote, but my mind is cloudy.  In PS6 Color
Settings -- if I enter the name of my monitor profile in the first RGB
(under Working Spaces), there is nowhere to enter my preferred color space
(Adobe RGB 1998).  The RBG entry (under Color Management Policies) is "Off"
and won't allow an entry.  Where do I err?

Glenn Thureson


>Your images should be in a universal, neutral balanced color space like
> AdobeRGB. Your monitor profile is used only for display purposes, not
image
> space purposes. So be sure that it is being used by Photoshop (under
> ColorSettings click on RGB, and see that MonitorRGB-"xxxx" has you correct
> monitor profile listed in the "xxxx" section, then be sure you have reset
the

> RGbB space to AdobeRGB). The only other place you might use your monitor
> profile is in your scanner software, again for accurate viewing.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@...

In a message dated 6/30/02 5:30:32 AM, glennthureson@... writes:

>You seem to understand what you wrote, but my mind is cloudy.  In PS6 Color
>Settings -- if I enter the name of my monitor profile in the first RGB
>(under Working Spaces), there is nowhere to enter my preferred color space
>(Adobe RGB 1998).  The RBG entry (under Color Management Policies) is "Off"
>and won't allow an entry.  Where do I err?

You err in setting your working space to your monitor profile. I was not 
suggesting setting it there (thats why I said to be sure to set it back when 
you are done) I was simply showing you where to look in the scrolling list to 
see that your correct monitor profile was being used. When finished checking 
this in the list, reset to your workingspace. Its a bit of a kludge, but its 
the only place Photoshop allows you to check your monitor profile.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...